I may have been wrong about red dot sights on handguns

[Mk42gunner]

I was in one of the semi-local pawnshops today, looking for a bigger chainsaw. No luck so I started looking at the pistol case.

I asked to look at one of the Sig 365's with a mounted RDS, I even told the owner I was not going to buy it I just wanted to try the sight picture.

I was very surprised when the red dot was immediately visible, definitely not my experience with either scopes or when I tried a red dot on my Ruger SSM. I can now see how they could be useful.

But they still add bulk to a carry gun. For holster carry okay; for concealed carry, I'm still not sold on them.

Then he showed me a flat topped something (I really wasn't curious enough to look at the make or model)that had a green dot with a circle, even with my fuzzy vision it would be useable.

Robert

[RickinTN]

I may be wrong but on a carry gun if you need it there is only enough time to point and shoot. If you take the time to aim anything you are probably done.
Rick

[BNE]

A red dot on a rifle (22 or 9mm) was VERY INTUITIVE for me. Just had to look at the target, shoulder the gun and the red dot was there.

Pistols on the other hand, I have not gotten used to. I’m still trying.

BNE

[fecmech]

I don't think they're practical as far as carry but they sure do keep us older guys in the game. Once Presbyopia sets in, open sights become very difficult for any precision handgun shooting.

[RickinTN]

I teach shotgun shooters how to point, not aim. In a defensive situation there is no time to look at sight of any type. Look at the aggressor and shoot. If you take the time to aim any kind of sight the aggressor has probably already shot you. Remember, he probably had the upper hand to begin with.
Good Luck, and Merry Christmas to all!
Rick

[BK7saum]

I may be wrong but on a carry gun if you need it there is only enough time to point and shoot. If you take the time to aim anything you are probably done.
Rick

If you take the time to be proficient and practice presentations there is no aiming or finding the dot. As soon as you are looking over the pistol the dot should be immediately present in the"window". If you have to move the pistol around to find the dot, you haven't spent enough time drawing amd presenting the firearm. If it is an immediate up close and personal situation, point and fire from clearing holster, just as you always should.

Out to 7-10 yards, most (who practice) should be able to put rounds in the scoring ring without usage of any sights.

[megasupermagnum]

I may be wrong but on a carry gun if you need it there is only enough time to point and shoot. If you take the time to aim anything you are probably done.
Rick

Every pistol and CCW class I've been in has said the opposite.

[GhostHawk]

I have Red Dot sights on both my Ruger Mk III 22/45's, and love them. Concealed carry pistols are another story. There I assume the range is going to be short enough that for me at least they really are not needed.

On my pistol caliber carbines I love them. And I have a 2x Red Dot on a .44mag handi rifle that is wicked fast and accurate out to 75 yards. Beyond that most any decent scope can do better. Not faster, but tighter groups. Even a 2.5 MOA dot is covering 2.5 inches of target. And those rounds could be on target, and hit anywhere in that 2.5" circle.

So IMO better for shorter range. Great for inside the house or thick cover.

[Finster101]

Every pistol and CCW class I've been in has said the opposite.

I agree. You can't miss fast enough. Hits matter.

[M-Tecs]

Every pistol and CCW class I've been in has said the opposite.

Same for me but more importantly are the after-gunfight testimonies. I've been reading accounts of mostly police shooting since the early 70's and the one that has stood out are the ones (that at a minimum) remember seeing and lining up the front sight had good results. The ones that remember sight alignment ended with great results. These were mostly competitive shooters. This has been a while ago since I've seen the results but the LE that were competitive shooters were averaging 1.3 shots per hit. The non-competitive shooting LE were averaging 15 shots per hit.

[imashooter2]

I may be wrong but on a carry gun if you need it there is only enough time to point and shoot. If you take the time to aim anything you are probably done.
Rick

Every weekend you can go to a USPSA, ICORE or IDPA match and find guys that can aim and shoot pretty darn fast.

[contender1]

My first red dot was not something I thought would work for me. I sold it.
Later on,, I found out I was the one in the wrong. I now own several.
My uses have primarily been on handguns. And I see a LOT of handgunners at my USPSA matches. I've been shooting USPSA since 1998.

The biggest problem people have with a red dot,, on a handgun,, is simply,, an improper grip. Once you train your body, mind & muscles to re-create a consistent grip everytime,, your red dot will be "right there." Otherwise,, a slightly off grip can & will cause the shooter to "hunt" for the dot.

As for a CCW handgun,, each person has to choose whatever works best for them. I know several folks who's daily carry gun has a red (or green) dot optic.

And in USPSA,,, the "Carry Optics" division is the most popular one currently.

[Led]

I have several pistol caliber rifles with red dots. My favorite being a Ruger 77/357. I've got a red dot for my GP100 that only does target work. It's nice and does improve my groups.

As for carry guns I tend to prefer very small auto loaders (Beretta Tomcat is my favorite) so the red dot options are few to none.

As for shot accuracy in a gun fight, that boils down to practice, practice and practice no mater what sighting system you're using.

Later,
Stephen

[M-Tecs]

I've done a 180 on red/green dot for carry. It took a learning curve but the low light level advantages out way any of the perceived disadvantages. That being said not all dot sights are created equal. Some are flat-out junk and some are very very good.

[Gray Fox]

Unfortunately for those of us with chronic astigmatism a red dot looks like a glob of red spaghetti. I've pretty much gone back to revolvers and the basics; good presentation from concealment, flash sight picture and a consistent smooth trigger pull with the emphasis on making the first shot one that counts. Revolvers loaded with snap caps really make dry fire practice easy, too. GF

[M-Tecs]

I have astigmatism and yes some dots don't work for me. I don't know why but I don't have any comet issues with my Holosun 407's and 507's 32 with the MOA Ring & 2 MOA Dot.

[imashooter2]

Holographic sights (EOTech and Holosun) have the dot inside the glass. Red dots project the light off the lens and back to your eye. This fundamental difference is a godsend for those of us that suffer from astigmatism. Unfortunately, they are a bit large for carry optics.

[M-Tecs]

Holographic sights (EOTech and Holosun) have the dot inside the glass. Red dots project the light off the lens and back to your eye. This fundamental difference is a godsend for those of us that suffer from astigmatism. Unfortunately, they are a bit large for carry optics.

Thanks, I did not know that.

The 407 X2 works great on my two Sig 365XL's and a Springfield Hellcat micro-compact. Since I retired, I work part-time at a Gunshop. I've installed a lot of red dots and the Holosuns worked best for me. In addition to astigmatism I am also red/green color deficient. Both the red and green Holosun work for me but green is better. Red lasers don't work for me but green works very well even during the day. Most red dots I don't see well and they look like a comet. The Holosun's work great for me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_UcftMvZ0M

[ScrapMetal]

Then he showed me a flat topped something (I really wasn't curious enough to look at the make or model)that had a green dot with a circle, even with my fuzzy vision it would be useable.

Robert

Robert,

FYI - That "flat top" was most likely the SIG 365 SAS I love the sight on that gun and the "no snag" design for CCW. I picked one up for my wife (CCW) for Christmas and am considering getting one myself for a backup gun.

-Ron

[Milky Duck]

so no one has mentioned the other option...red dot ON the target... the lazer beam.
mate has red dot on his .44magnum rifle for bailed pigs...average range of shots would be 10 yards..pretty much ideal,but so would a lazer.

[Thundarstick]

Robert,

FYI - That "flat top" was most likely the SIG 365 SAS I love the sight on that gun and the "no snag" design for CCW. I picked one up for my wife (CCW) for Christmas and am considering getting one myself for a backup gun.

-Ron
Yep, I'm in the same boat on that sighting system. Most of the reviews you see gripe about it not being precise at range, but it's not for range work, it's for self defense work! I'm just trying to decide if it's worth an extra $100 to have a totally smooth flat slide.
I have astigmatism and most dot sights have a pronounced coma, more like comet, blur. I've found a prism sight works great, no coma at all.

[HumptyDumpty]

Some say that you won't have time to aim, but I tend to believe that you won't have time to miss. All shooting involves some degree of aiming, it's just that you may not be referencing the sights, or else not clearly resolving them. With sufficient practice, and assuming a very short distance, "point shooting" may well be the answer. But I don't typically practice or teach it. From everything I have read, and my own experimentation, I'm convinced that that practicing aimed fire cannot help but improve one's point-shooting, but the reverse does not appear to be true at all.
I don't personally like red dots, but if they permit you to take a more precise shot in your moment of need, then they are valuable.

[imashooter2]

so no one has mentioned the other option...red dot ON the target... the lazer beam.
mate has red dot on his .44magnum rifle for bailed pigs...average range of shots would be 10 yards..pretty much ideal,but so would a lazer.

The problem with lasers is the initial index. The dot gets lost in the background behind the target.

[Jtarm]

Point & counter-point:

https://youtu.be/jjlL0hYgdag

https://youtu.be/apILD12giac

[reddog81]

Every weekend you can go to a USPSA, ICORE or IDPA match and find guys that can aim and shoot pretty darn fast.

That's true but those guys shoot more every week than your average criminal does over the course of many years.

Point and shoot works great if you practice enough. If your average gun owner just pulls out a gun and starts blasting away chances are they won't hit whatever they are aiming at.

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks for pointing out that the flat top was probably the Sig 365 SAS; I am not normally that inattentive when it comes to firearms, I promise.

As to the people not even attempting to use sights, the only way I can see that coming out well in court is if you are at contact range with your assailant. I will admit that back when I ran a range in the early 90's I was shooting enough that I got relatively good out to about fifteen yards with indexing by the 1911A1 silhouette. However I was not trying to thread a round around a child and into a bad guy, then I would have definitely looked for the front sight.

The biggest difference I can see is the RDS meant for carry guns are small and almost in the same visual plane as iron sights. By the time you add a scope base then a RDS, you have to look almost an inch higher than years of experience tells you to look for the sights.

Robert

[M-Tecs]

The Sig 365 SAS sights are interesting. They tend to work well in good light and well in the dark. At least for me they are basically useless in low light.

[Dekota56]

My wife and I been practicing with open sites for years, I thought if I had to draw my weapon out.
A red dot would not matter. Reaction time. And how far the aggressive person is plays a big part.
It would take some time to get use to. It works right now for us out of the draw with open sights. I guess I never sampled around much with other red dots.
Now a red dot on my coyote hunting rifle works great. But not for protection, at lest for my wife and I.

[ScrapMetal]

Yep, I'm in the same boat on that sighting system. Most of the reviews you see gripe about it not being precise at range, but it's not for range work, it's for self defense work! I'm just trying to decide if it's worth an extra $100 to have a totally smooth flat slide.
I have astigmatism and most dot sights have a pronounced coma, more like comet, blur. I've found a prism sight works great, no coma at all.

Well, the "no snag" is definitely worth it for my wife's carry as she keeps it in her purse along with everything, less the kitchen sink? Just a guess as I don't dare try to find anything in there.

For me, the sight is accurate enough, especially as my eyes are set to different focal points. If I try to focus on a front sight I completely lose the rear and vice-versa. With the SAS I can actually get a clearer sight picture even if it isn't as "accurate". Which is more important? Beats me. At normal "gun fight" distances I am a pretty fair point shooter but having a sight I'm comfortable with provides a lot of reassurance.

JMHO

-Ron

[buckwheatpaul]

I was taught basic marksmanship and safety at a very tender age....fast forward to 1974 and as LE I was taught "riding the front sight" for shooting out to around 10 to 15 yards. I fought the red dot for years as I had bought those cheaper red dots with dismal result. A year ago my wife bought me a Ruger Max-9 and just two days ago I bought a Sig RomeoZero to try. First - 10 shots were spot on at 10 yards in extremely cold weather with high winds driving the temp down.

I did like the setup and when I went to the front sight the red dot was always present....so I believe that with a quality product the red dot sight is an extension or better way to approach "riding the front sight" I was taught 48 years ago...I'm not sure if it will become a primary carry or not yet or ever but it sure makes shooting easier for 70+ eyes. Just my 2 cents worth!

[winelover]

so no one has mentioned the other option...red dot ON the target... the lazer beam.
mate has red dot on his .44magnum rifle for bailed pigs...average range of shots would be 10 yards..pretty much ideal,but so would a lazer.:


:goodpost: I was thinking along the same lines. All my carry pieces have either, Crimson Trace laser grips of Laserguards. They are not obtrusive. You can literally, shoot from the hip and make better hits than aimed fire.

Winelover

[one-eyed fat man]

... LE that were competitive shooters were averaging 1.3 shots per hit. The non-competitive shooting LE were averaging 15 shots per hit.

Shooters who like to shoot, tend to shoot a lot, thus likely shoot better than the ones who only shoot annual qualification because the job makes them.


Every weekend you can go to a USPSA, ICORE or IDPA match and find guys that can aim and shoot pretty darn fast.

Paper people never shoot back.

Point shooting, as taught by the likes of W.E. Fairbairn and Rex Applegate, have their place. The most important element in winning a gunfight according to Fairbairn was speed: the first shot must be fired within one-third second. That does not allow time to align the sights. Based on his analysis, most urban shootouts took place at 5 feet or less. I am pretty sure what worked in a dark Shanghai back alley in 1932 would prove just as useful in Chicago in 2022.

[Bigslug]

Acquiring a red dot on a pistol coming out of a holster is a different skill set from iron sights, and it takes some time and training. Faster once you get it, but it's a mistake to think that you can bolt on a red dot and instantly have all of your pistol shooting problems go away.

The big advantage for anybody over 45 is that the thing you use to aim has now moved into the same visual focal plane as the distance prescription on your glasses. The big advantage tactically is that you can watch your opponent's hands right up to and including the point of delivering rounds.

They don't appreciably add bulk to the CCW equation - they kinda live in that curve/gap your shirt forms across the top of the gun. The grip of the pistol is still the bigger concern.

They ain't foolproof. Like any optic on a hunting rifle, attention to quality of the mounting system and the details of the mounting process are key to keeping them attached properly. The open-backed ones collect lint when you CCW them and require frequent attention (I've gone to enclosed for this reason). The GOOD ones (and good mounting plates) are at the point of being durable enough to where we can trust them on duty guns in order to gain the sighting advantages, but they are not yet to the point of being quite as "soldier-proof" as the pistols underneath them - which is why we insist on backup irons that are just tall enough to give you a sliver of sights at the bottom of the red dot's window, but stay out of your way otherwise.

[AnthonyB]

Paraphrasing Bill Jordan here, who wrote that anyone who tried to use sights in a gunfight with him just proved that God loved him (Jordan) more than the other guy. I'm not Bill Jordan.

I'm workin on the transition to a quality red dot on my carry pistols. I have learned NOT to look for the dot, just bring the slide plate up to my eyes while looking at the target. With a good grip, the dot will be there. The main advantage seems to be concentrating solely on the target instead of looking for the front sight and then bringing it onto the target you have not been focusing on while it continued doing whatever annoyed you in the first place.

I can tell no difference in size/weight/bulk using a qood holster.
Tony

[Baltimoreed]

Truglo front sights work for my old eyes. I do have a crimson trace on a New Agent but it doesn’t have any sights.

[buckwheatpaul]

I see this thread is following the argument over 9mm vs 45 ACP vs 40 S & W! There is a lot of great info and will bring hour of information to decipher regarding red dot vs. open sights!

[Kevin Rohrer]

I have taken several RDS courses and understand their use for defensive handguns. They are useful for:

1. gamesmen
2. those of advanced age whose eyes can no longer focus on the front sight
3. longer range shooting for those who cannot hit a man-size target outside social distances.

The negatives are they

1. add bulk
2. are of no use at social distances
3. have a battery that dies when you do not want it to
4. have electronics that die when you do not want them to.

[Dekota56]

I agree, they have a purpose but, when all else fails you will need to shoot with open sights.
When you least expect it they do fail.

[megasupermagnum]

Shooters who like to shoot, tend to shoot a lot, thus likely shoot better than the ones who only shoot annual qualification because the job makes them.



Paper people never shoot back.

Point shooting, as taught by the likes of W.E. Fairbairn and Rex Applegate, have their place. The most important element in winning a gunfight according to Fairbairn was speed: the first shot must be fired within one-third second. That does not allow time to align the sights. Based on his analysis, most urban shootouts took place at 5 feet or less. I am pretty sure what worked in a dark Shanghai back alley in 1932 would prove just as useful in Chicago in 2022.

I had to look those two names up. Maybe back when those guys were shooting dinosaurs speed mattered more. Actually that's not true either. Back even when cap and ball revolvers were king, guys like wild bill lived to tell about it because they made that first shot count. I think there is a reason you don't hear those two names anymore, and why point shooting hasn't been taught in any real amount since about WWII.

You are going to have to try pretty hard to find any real instructor in the last 20 years that thinks point shooting is worth more than just something fun to try at the range.

[megasupermagnum]

I did a little research. While the true point shooting of Rex Applegate was shortly used for WWII and quickly abandoned, his "point shooting" method of bringing the pistol up to eye level to use the sights is still relevant. It actually looks quite similar to a modern squared stance and grip, except one handed. It absolutely uses the sights though. It was essentially what Jeff Cooper used, who turned it into a 2 hand grip with emphasis on quick sight picture.

At the end of the day the fundamentals have to be there.

Consistent grip
Consistent sight picture
Consistent trigger pull

Fail any of those, and you have a miss. You can't miss fast enough to make it count. There isn't a real pistol class today that will say otherwise.

[Bigslug]

I see this thread is following the argument over 9mm vs 45 ACP vs 40 S & W! There is a lot of great info and will bring hour of information to decipher regarding red dot vs. open sights!

The thing I have yet to try is to hand a total never-shot-anything newbie a red dot and see how they do with one. There's a lot of folks that just don't seem to get the whole spatial alignment of two sights and a target thing, and the red dot does have the potential to dumb down the process.

I DO have to say that I've earned A LOT of my rangemaster money trying to get people OUT of the habit of looking over their irons at their target for their bullet holes. I kinda joke to myself that after decades of trying to get people to focus on their front sight, we're now just handing them red dots and saying "FINE! Have it your way!"[smilie=b:

I have also seen is that bad grip and trigger control are still problems to be solved, but the simplification of the VISUAL part of the process can minimize the effect of those, and maybe even doing a better job of showing the shooter they have those problems.

I dunno. . .for a great many folks, there's not enough time and ammo to train to proficiency, and the lengthy pauses between range sessions keep many at a certain level of stagnant inadequacy. . . and then by the time you've learned it (maybe) your eyes are shot and can't do it properly anymore. Truthfully, I HATE reliance on technology and would gladly purchase a cell phone powered by a coal scoop and steam boiler - - BUT, the good guys are pretty much always reactive and behind on time, so why not "cheat"?

As to the iron backups at the bottom of your red dot window, my preference is running to simple solid black. 1. The red dot is illuminated and therefore takes the place of tritium. 2. Anybody running a red dot is probably also running a flashlight on their gun, which will backlight their irons. 3. Replacing burnt-out tritiums every 7-10 years when they're a backup sighting system seems like wasted cash. 4. You probably want to be careful mixing green tritium with a green-reticle optic. 5. If you've decided to use the top of your bifocals (distance prescription) and live with blurry sights rather than use the very non-tactical "old man head tip" to use your near prescription, any bright colors on your front sight just explode into a halo which wipes out any hope of semi-precise alignment. At least such is the world of MY crappy eyes - -YMMV.

[rbuck351]

When the front sight gets up to the lower chest pull the trigger twice on the way up to the head then pull once more if the head is still there. For me that works about as fast as I can move the gun. It doesn't really need sights as the barrel/slide works just as well at ranges where a bad guy is a threat.

[AnthonyB]

My wife was a non-shooter when we met. She learned scoped rifles easily but iron sighted handguns were a bridge too far. My first red dot purchase was for her.
I became a believer. That is why I am trying to change over.
I don’t understand the added bulk argument. I have been carrying small pistols, and a red dot adds no bulk I can feel.
Battery fears are alleviated by changing them on Christmas. If the dot fails, I have iron sights. If they fail, I can aim down the slide.
I wonder what the discussions on a board like this might have been like when those newfangled stops sights on rifles first started appearing?
Tony

[M-Tecs]

My wife was a non-shooter when we met. She learned scoped rifles easily but iron sighted handguns were a bridge too far. My first red dot purchase was for her.
I became a believer. That is why I am trying to change over.
I don’t understand the added bulk argument. I have been carrying small pistols, and a red dot adds no bulk I can feel.
Battery fears are alleviated by changing them on Christmas. If the dot fails, I have iron sights. If they fail, I can aim down the slide.
I wonder what the discussions on a board like this might have been like when those newfangled stops sights on rifles first started appearing?
Tony

I was thinking the very same as I reread it a couple of hours ago.

[Thundarstick]

How about we throw in a double action first shot, like my Beretta, or a DA revolver. That'll really make things interesting!

[buckwheatpaul]

The thing I have yet to try is to hand a total never-shot-anything newbie a red dot and see how they do with one. There's a lot of folks that just don't seem to get the whole spatial alignment of two sights and a target thing, and the red dot does have the potential to dumb down the process.

I DO have to say that I've earned A LOT of my rangemaster money trying to get people OUT of the habit of looking over their irons at their target for their bullet holes. I kinda joke to myself that after decades of trying to get people to focus on their front sight, we're now just handing them red dots and saying "FINE! Have it your way!"[smilie=b:

I have also seen is that bad grip and trigger control are still problems to be solved, but the simplification of the VISUAL part of the process can minimize the effect of those, and maybe even doing a better job of showing the shooter they have those problems.

I dunno. . .for a great many folks, there's not enough time and ammo to train to proficiency, and the lengthy pauses between range sessions keep many at a certain level of stagnant inadequacy. . . and then by the time you've learned it (maybe) your eyes are shot and can't do it properly anymore. Truthfully, I HATE reliance on technology and would gladly purchase a cell phone powered by a coal scoop and steam boiler - - BUT, the good guys are pretty much always reactive and behind on time, so why not "cheat"?

As to the iron backups at the bottom of your red dot window, my preference is running to simple solid black. 1. The red dot is illuminated and therefore takes the place of tritium. 2. Anybody running a red dot is probably also running a flashlight on their gun, which will backlight their irons. 3. Replacing burnt-out tritiums every 7-10 years when they're a backup sighting system seems like wasted cash. 4. You probably want to be careful mixing green tritium with a green-reticle optic. 5. If you've decided to use the top of your bifocals (distance prescription) and live with blurry sights rather than use the very non-tactical "old man head tip" to use your near prescription, any bright colors on your front sight just explode into a halo which wipes out any hope of semi-precise alignment. At least such is the world of MY crappy eyes - -YMMV.

Bigslug I really like this post....a lot to think about.....with 35+ years of LE I am slow to adapt to the red dot idea as I have run the front sight like I said out to about 12 yards or so and total sight picture at about 15+ yards.....with that said being retired I have my doubts if you can get pass the grand jury indictment if you are much beyond 20 yards without some extraordinary reason. Also given most encounters are down and dirty (well under 10 yards) and you cant go wrong with riding the front sight....but like I said the red or green dot should be right over the front sight. Im not sure if I will ever carry the red dot sight as I have a lot of confidence in my 35 years of training and weekly practice. I do find it a fun and interesting tool and it is in my opinion, you know what that is worth, is the red dot could easily be an improved version of riding the front sight! Have a most wonderful Christmas!

[Mk42gunner]

I made a comment on youtube regarding rds that I think applies, to paraphrase it: Seventy to one hundred years ago people were saying the same thing about scopes on rifles. forty years ago most bolt action rifles still came with iron sights, even if the very first thing you did was mount a scope.

Looking into the future, I can see that in fifty years or so iron sights will no longer be common on handguns.

Bigslugs comment brought to mind a time when we were trying to get a young lady qualified with the Beretta. Neither I nor my assistant could see anything she was doing wrong, but there were zero hold on the rather large target. Ground conditions didn't let us see any bullet impacts.

It was getting late in the day and we had time for one more string and Mike and I still had to qualify, so we put her on the line between us. First string of fire from three yards and we both saw what she was doing. She was focusing on the front sight, problem was she had it elevated so she could see the whole front sight and about half the barrel too. Couldn't see the mistake from behind the firing line, it became obvious when viewed from 90 degrees.

Robert

[HumptyDumpty]

I made a comment on youtube regarding rds that I think applies, to paraphrase it: Seventy to one hundred years ago people were saying the same thing about scopes on rifles. forty years ago most bolt action rifles still came with iron sights, even if the very first thing you did was mount a scope.

Looking into the future, I can see that in fifty years or so iron sights will no longer be common on handguns.

Bigslugs comment brought to mind a time when we were trying to get a young lady qualified with the Beretta. Neither I nor my assistant could see anything she was doing wrong, but there were zero hold on the rather large target. Ground conditions didn't let us see any bullet impacts.

It was getting late in the day and we had time for one more string and Mike and I still had to qualify, so we put her on the line between us. First string of fire from three yards and we both saw what she was doing. She was focusing on the front sight, problem was she had it elevated so she could see the whole front sight and about half the barrel too. Couldn't see the mistake from behind the firing line, it became obvious when viewed from 90 degrees.

Robert

Dear God I hope that doesn't happen. I absolutely HATE that manufacturers fail to provide me with a simple set of sights when I buy a rifle. The very idea that I need to go out and spend more money, just to make the weapon usable, drives me up a wall. I've noticed that people are using scopes at even short range, where such a device should not be even remotely necessary. I recall an episode last year, when I went shooting with a friend of mine, who was eager to show off his fancy, custom-made 300 Win Mag. I brought along my aged FR8. We both rang steel from 50-300 yards, for a while,then swapped guns. After several minutes of frustration, he asked me how I managed to hit anything with it. Having spent that same time using his scoped rifle, I asked him how he was able to miss so much.

[Bigslug]

How about we throw in a double action first shot, like my Beretta, or a DA revolver. That'll really make things interesting!

A good topic to discuss and apply to red dots!

One of the bad habits new shooters often need a lot of work on is the tendency to slap the trigger when their front iron sight wobbles near the center of their target, pushing their sights off target - usually low. We eventually learn that the sights never stop wobbling and that we just have to keep them correctly aligned while we keep the overall sight picture as near to the middle of the target as we can - - and then steadily press on the trigger as we do so.

Now, let's introduce red dots. With iron sights, we're used to focusing on the front sight, which probably covers about 10-15 minutes of angle (MOA). With the red dot our aiming device is on average only covering 3 MOA, and we've shifted our focus to the target while we superimpose that dot.

The thing folks new to red dots perceive is that they seem to be wobbling MORE than they were with irons. THEY ARE NOT; it just seems that way because of the finer aiming device and the on-target focus. You get to re-learn that tendency not to slap the trigger, but the end result is that you have a better sense of your natural wobble and how your trigger control works into it when you don't have to split the focus of your eyeballs between two different distances.

DA revolvers ABSOLUTELY made me a better shooter with all handguns because they purged the idea that your sights can be made to "freeze" over the 10-ring out of my mind. I fully intend to red-dot my GP-100 just as soon as I find a mount that combines with an enclosed-emitter sight.

[Bigslug]

Bigslug I really like this post....a lot to think about.....with 35+ years of LE I am slow to adapt to the red dot idea as I have run the front sight like I said out to about 12 yards or so and total sight picture at about 15+ yards.....with that said being retired I have my doubts if you can get pass the grand jury indictment if you are much beyond 20 yards without some extraordinary reason. Also given most encounters are down and dirty (well under 10 yards) and you cant go wrong with riding the front sight....but like I said the red or green dot should be right over the front sight. Im not sure if I will ever carry the red dot sight as I have a lot of confidence in my 35 years of training and weekly practice. I do find it a fun and interesting tool and it is in my opinion, you know what that is worth, is the red dot could easily be an improved version of riding the front sight! Have a most wonderful Christmas!

I've given your boldfaced bit a lot of thought over the years.

My conclusion is that we - as the good guys - are constrained by the societal norms and have to carry relatively small and comparatively ineffective handguns concealed so that we don't alarm the sheep. We'd all rather respond with rifles or shotguns when the balloon goes up, but it unfortunately doesn't really fit "the rules". The bad guys are not constrained by those norms and will bring whatever tools their unhinged brains deem necessary to achieve their unhinged aims. Therefore, I think it's a lot more likely the good guy with a handgun will have to find a way to cope with a bad guy with a rifle than the other way around. If we train ourselves up somewhat for that 1%, we only gain confidence in our ability to deal with the 10-yard 99%

I think most of us here are mature enough to have learned that our handguns are mechanically capable of better accuracy than we are capable of squeezing out of them. When I was really "on point" with irons, hitting milk jugs at 100 yards with revolvers run DAO was about a 50% thing and smaller drinking water bottles were not safe at 50 yards even with 2" snubbies. When I attended my red dot instructor course, the same or better percentages were attained without much difficulty by most of the class from 9mm Glocks on torso-sized steel at 100 yards after only about 2 days of working with them. The list of reasons why making those longer shots can be hard comes down to (1.) bad marksmanship fundamentals (trigger slap, anticipation of recoil, poor grip, etc...), (2.) physical problems (muscle fatigue, injuries, palsy, etc..), or (3.) eyesight issues. We can train and condition ourselves around a lot of the first two, but presbyopia is Mother Nature's kick in the balls for iron sight shooters over 45 years of age and no amount of time in the gym or on the range can help you deal with it. The red dots are not only a crutch that allow us geezers to keep up with the 20-somethings, but they make it easier to squeeze a little more out of our pistols than we otherwise could.

So right up front, as the armorer who gets to bolt all this stuff together, I'd prefer to keep the gun less complex. On the other hand, as a 51-year old whose eyes started to crash and burn about 6-7 years ago, the red dot allows me to keep doing what the rest of the body still can. I can generate combat accuracy well enough with irons in decent light without raising up to the "nears" on my bifocals, but I'd be deluding myself to say I can deliver the same level of goods in the same amount of time as I can with a sharply focused red dot over a sharply focused target. It took a couple thousand rounds, some heavy study, and some coaching to properly figure the system out, and I'm working on it still, but the things it delivers are impossible for me to deny.

[Thundarstick]

A good topic to discuss and apply to red dots!

One of the bad habits new shooters often need a lot of work on is the tendency to slap the trigger when their front iron sight wobbles near the center of their target, pushing their sights off target - usually low. We eventually learn that the sights never stop wobbling and that we just have to keep them correctly aligned while we keep the overall sight picture as near to the middle of the target as we can - - and then steadily press on the trigger as we do so.

Now, let's introduce red dots. With iron sights, we're used to focusing on the front sight, which probably covers about 10-15 minutes of angle (MOA). With the red dot our aiming device is on average only covering 3 MOA, and we've shifted our focus to the target while we superimpose that dot.

The thing folks new to red dots perceive is that they seem to be wobbling MORE than they were with irons. THEY ARE NOT; it just seems that way because of the finer aiming device and the on-target focus. You get to re-learn that tendency not to slap the trigger, but the end result is that you have a better sense of your natural wobble and how your trigger control works into it when you don't have to split the focus of your eyeballs between two different distances.

DA revolvers ABSOLUTELY made me a better shooter with all handguns because they purged the idea that your sights can be made to "freeze" over the 10-ring out of my mind. I fully intend to red-dot my GP-100 just as soon as I find a mount that combines with an enclosed-emitter sight.

I find that shooting a DA hand gun much like instinct shooting a recurve bow!

[Carrier]

If your eyes are still working as they should then iron works fine as it did for me for many years. However even with eye surgery and every type of glasses there are you just can’t fight old age.
Red dots allow me to be able to shoot like I could as a young man.

[Bigslug]

I find that shooting a DA hand gun much like instinct shooting a recurve bow!

The real test of the kung fu I learned in post #49 would have to be the DA/SA auto. I'm not anybody's gift to the profession, but since I have to inspect and test fire a bunch of different guns, the mindset I got out of revolvers REALLY helped helped me developed a system in which I can shoot most things passably well despite different grips, trigger weights, and trigger mechanisms. If most of your mental work is going into keeping the sights correctly aligned while you steadily press the trigger, it suddenly quits mattering so much what the properties of that trigger are, or what the shape of the grip is, for that matter. I don't shoot enough DA/SA guns to be a poster child for them, but if I did, mastering the fast double across the two different trigger pulls would be very high on my priority list.

I've yet to try a red dot on any gun with a DA or DA/SA trigger, but my guess is that the increased awareness of your "personal wiggle" would only help.

[Bigslug]

I guess I might as well ramble on the topic of mounts and battery management, and WTH, why not serviceability, for a bit.

MOUNTING: You need to be aware that blasting off in a rocket to the moon doesn't subject you to even half of the G-forces of acceleration and deceleration that your red dot gets every time you pull the trigger. Then there's all the drills we used do to clear malfunctions one-handed by racking the slide using the rear sight as an anchor point on our belt, holster, boot heel, etc..., which we now would do off the top of our red dot (we now tend to discuss this in theory rather than practice for reasons which should become obvious).

These sights are typically held on by two to four fairly small screws. Part of an ideal mounting system is to put the optic into a tightly fitting recess on top of the slide - the idea being to provide some front-to-rear bracing for the sight over and above what the little screws give. If your slide is milled for say, a Leupold Delta Point, and that's what you're installing, you're probably good to go. If, on the other hand, you're running a generic cut on the slide like Glock's MOS, you want to use a mounting plate that provides a socket specific to your optic rather than try to direct-mount it.

Then you want a mounting system that provides a good bit of screw thread contact for both the mounting plate to the slide, and the optic to the mounting plate. As of this moment, I'm sold on C&H Precision Weapon Systems plates because they clearly understand the beating these sights take, and do a very good job of maximizing the ability to clamp them down within the confines of the current "small screws" state of what's currently passing for "standard" in the red dot industry.

Next, it's making sure your screws fit without entering into and binding things like firing pin and extractor tunnels, loc-titing them down and making sure you haven't gotten any of that goo into firing pin or extractor tunnels, applying the proper amount of torque, and letting it sit for a day to cure before trying to shoot it. I go a bit farther with a dab of loc-tite under the conical heads of the screws to bind extra surface area, nail poilsh over the top, and a couple of colored dots to indicate if they've started to turn loose.

While the Trijicon RMR is a good sight and probably the most durable on on the market, all of that process above should tell you why I think it's STOOO-PID to design a sight that you have to take off in order to change the battery.

BATTERY MANAGEMENT: While Holosun is what I'm most familiar with, they may not be the only manufacturer out there with an "auto-brightness mode" that increases or decreases the dot's output when the sight moves to a different light condition. TWO PROBLEMS WITH THIS: first, it is a battery vampire that drastically reduces run time from the advertised max life span (think six months or less vs. a year or more); second, the brightness of the dot at the location the sight is sitting does not necessarily mean you're getting the right brightness for where you're sending you're sending bullets to. If you're in a darkened building shooting into sunlight, or are lighting up your target with a 1000 lumen flashlight, you might have a problem. Therefore, we're primarily teaching to run the sight on manual control and maybe a click or two brighter than ideal to ensure the dot isn't washed out.

I never had any use for the "butt plugs" that go into the cavity at the bottom rear of a Glock's grip until now. I've wrapped a spare battery in a chunk of foam, shoved it in there, and put the plug in to keep it in place. I've since learned that the CHPWS folks are making one special with sockets to hold a few common battery sizes. At any rate, if you're going to run a sight with batteries, scattering a few spares and the tools needed to change them around the common locations of your life would be wise. . .as would a check of the sight's function and window cleanliness every few days.

SERVICEABILITY: This is an area of the industry in which I'm watching the "red dot shakeup" with great interest.

The original 1911 (not Series 80) and Glock both made the jump to red dots fairly easily because all of the operational guts in the slide insert from the rear and are far enough from the top of the slide that you can mill in for an optic without interfering with the gun's workings. Glock has a firing pin safety, but it's located right behind the breech face and so is well forward of where you'd put an optic plate.

There are a lot of pistols out there with vertically-driven roll pins to hold in extractors and firing pins, as well as firing pin blocks living in sockets that extend almost all the way to the top surface of the slide. These are possibly flat out not going to be compatible with red dots, will require some adjustments (i.e., shorter roll pins), and may give you a situation where if you need to clean out the inside of your slide, your optic will have to come off in order to do it.

The new FN 509 looks to be a very nice pistol overall, but they used a vertical roll pin to hold the extractor in on a handgun that was intended from the start to mount a red dot, and they put it inside the red dot cutout. Given that Glock and the 1911 both had VERY functional slide guts that would adapt to this technology 40 and 110 years ago, respectively, it's stuff like this that makes me want to line up (ahem) "engineers" and slap them. :groner:

In short, this new road we're on is not without its rough patches, but I think we're getting there.

[FrankJD]

Love my little LCR22LR and it's green laser - point 'n' shoot at its finest, very accurate.