Pressure signs on primers

[mattd]

Was making up hunting loads for my 1911 45acp, 200g Mihec HP and CFE Pistol.

Started at the bottom and worked my way up. I was looking for flattened primers each time and any other typ sign a of pressure. Everything went great shooting and they were accurate loads. No big recoil.

On the last and hottest rounds, i noticed scalloping on the primers. Like the gas blew threw the bottom it looks like. On closer inspection the primers aren’t flattened (what I typ see when I get too hot), but they all look suspect, even the lighter rounds. I loaded to what the book calls for, 1.225”, but that was just a generic 200g bullet.

Since they shot great, and it’s a powder capable of higher FPS, should I load longer and try again, or abandon this effort?

The CFE Rounds are the groups of 3 to the left, the group to the right is 5.5g of 231 and those look normal.

308194

[VariableRecall]

I prefer Win231/HP-38 for my .45 ACP loads. Perhaps CFE pistol runs a pressure curve that makes your cartridges more sensitive to pressure spikes? I’ve never had a blown primer with 231.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Checking for pressure using primer appearance in the 45 ACP is risky. Most primers won't change appearance until you are well past the 21000 psi of standard pressure or the 23000 psi of the +P loads. 'SOUPING UP' a 1911 45 ACP may not provide significant gains in performance and can beat your gun up. Stick to 'book' loads for powder charge and OAL for best results. Tinker with OAL is sometimes needed for reliable function with SOME bullets, like the 200gr SWC like the H&G 68. An extra 50-75 fps does not get you much for power or trajectory with the .45.

[Milky Duck]

apparently...the way we have been using primers as pressure indicaters for years "is all wrong" and doesnt work...according to many out there now...you "just have to use a chronograph" and plot curves on a graph and look for flat spots and drops in velocity or your just an old fashioned fuddy duddy who knows nothing....apparently.

now me personally
if primers start to look different...I believe things are getting warm so will back off.

[P Flados]

The 45 ACP is only rated 21,000 psi.

The primers you are using are also suitable for use in a 44 magnum.

Think about it. If you are seeing consistently flattened primers in a 45 ACP, you might be approaching the 44 magnum pressure limit, 36,000 psi.

Using multiple sources for load data (and only use data with pressure reported in psi) and combining that with making sure your chrono data does not exceed what you would expect is a good approach to staying under the limit. Looking for "pressure signs" works in higher pressure rounds, but is normally not really worth much for low and mid pressure cartridges.

If you really like a specific load and want a best estimate for pressure and velocity using a tool like Quickload, it can be done for most powders (my version does not have CFE Pistol). You would need to provide barrel length, bullet weight, bullet length, cartridge AOL, powder and charge.

I ran the following for comparison: 5" barrel, 200 gr, 0.545" long bullet, 1.225" AOL, 5.5 gr 231 and got 862 fps at 13,027 psi. It predicted 6.9 grs of 231 would get 1023 fps at 20482 psi. For a +P load, 7.8 gr is predicted to give 1082 fps at 22,600 psi.

[M-Tecs]

Personally if it was mine, I would check neck tension to ensure the bullets were not pushing back from recoil. Since it only happened with CFE Pistol that may not be your issue. On some of the blanked primers it looks like the firing pin hole is on the large size???? Light firing pin springs cause smears and light slide springs causes timing issues.

My 10MM and 460 Rowland primers don't look like that. The 10mm is 37,500 PSI and the 460 Rowland is 40,000 PSI. I will be surprised if it's a pressure issue verse timing?

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/105322-primer-smear/

[243winxb]

CFE- 200 gr lead @ 7.4 to 8.2 grs 1142 fps is a top loading. Your primes show flow. Mostly slide marked primers, as the action opens. May try a slightly heavier recoil spring?

Make sure bullets are not into the rifling.

What primer? I like WLP. Blue Dot @ 10.5 gr, 200 gr lswc primers look about the same.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/primer-swipe.2998/full

[35 Whelen]

Someone please explain how a large pistol primer "knows" to flatten when a 45 ACP load reached its maximum of 23K psi, but at the same time when loaded in a .44 Magnum "knows" to NOT flatten until pressures reach 40K psi.

35W

[M-Tecs]

Someone please explain how a large pistol primer "knows" to flatten when a 45 ACP load reached its maximum of 23K psi, but at the same time when loaded in a .44 Magnum "knows" to NOT flatten until pressures reach 40K psi.

35W

Same for 45 Colt at 14,000 PSI.

[243winxb]

The 1911 45 ACP inertia firing pin does not stay in contact with the WLP. Allows flow of primer. Flow(ACP) different then flattened (44Mag). Both pressure signs.

The 44 mag M29 firing pin/hammer nose stays in contact with the primer a lot longer. A full pressure loading will even produce hammer bounce. A 2nd bump from the firing pin. Bounce can be seen in slow motion on Youtube.

[M-Tecs]

That doesn't explain why the same primer in a 45 ACP shows "pressure" in a 1911 above 21,000 PSI for standard or 23,000 PSI plus P yet in the same 1911 platform a 10 MM at 37,500 PSI or a 460 Rowland at 40,000 PSI doesn't?

Them primers is way smarter than I realized.............................

[slughammer]

Take your firing pin out and weigh it. A steel pin weighs about 60gr, a titanium pin weighs only 30gr.

Some manufacturers use the lighter titanium pins to pass drop testing.

A steel pin has more mass and will dwell in the primer during the peak of the pressure curve, the result will be a primer with an indent shaped like the firing pin.

A titanium pin may retract too fast and allow the primer to flow into the firing pin hole, the barrel then unlocks and smears or shaves the material that was pushed into the hole.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[mattd]

Lots of great info! I was firing my SBH w full power loads of 2400 and a 429421 right before these shots. Same CCI primers. No issues there.

Don’t have my head wrapped around it yet, but primer swipe I need to look into.

Thanks!

[243winxb]

Factoty 9mm gun & ammo. Photo- https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/remington-factory-range-115-fmj-fired-in-taurus-g3c.3600/full https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/remington-factory-range-115-fmj-fired-in-taurus-g3c.3601/full When reload matches factory, i stop increasing the powder charge. The target will not notice the lower velocity.

Primer flow into firing pin channel. If reloading to a higher pressure, the primer may "Blank". Meaning -a hole is produced where the firing pin made contact. This piece of metal may enter the firing pin channel or fall into the action.

Yes, the diameter of the firing pin channel could be smaller. I think this G3C firing pin retracts after the strike? Allows flow?

[243winxb]

Someone please explain how a large pistol primer "knows" to flatten when a 45 ACP load reached its maximum of 23K psi, but at the same time when loaded in a .44 Magnum "knows" to NOT flatten until pressures reach 40K psi.

35W 45 acp flow as a pressure sign.

The military has said, firing of primer, no powder, may produce 23,000 PSI in the pocket. https://discover.dtic.mil/

No flash hole on this round.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/23-000-psi-in-primer-pocket-on-firing-no-powder.4319/full

[Baltimoreed]

The backing out of the primer when it is fired, it flowing around the firing pin into the space between the pin and frame [cratering] and then being reseated into the pocket when the case moves to the rear [edge flattening] is what makes the various deformities on the fired primer. Normal loads don’t deform primers but warm to hot will. Plus there are hard and soft primers that will deform at different pressures. You can’t make generic comments about loads messing with primers unless you know that the primers are all the same manufacture. Federals are considered softest while cci are the hardest. I run cci but like easy loads.

[M-Tecs]

Factoty 9mm gun & ammo. Photo- https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/remington-factory-range-115-fmj-fired-in-taurus-g3c.3600/full https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/remington-factory-range-115-fmj-fired-in-taurus-g3c.3601/full When reload matches factory, i stop increasing the powder charge. The target will not notice the lower velocity.

Primer flow into firing pin channel. If reloading to a higher pressure, the primer may "Blank". Meaning -a hole is produced where the firing pin made contact. This piece of metal may enter the firing pin channel or fall into the action.

Yes, the diameter of the firing pin channel could be smaller. I think this G3C firing pin retracts after the strike? Allows flow?

Thanks excellent photos to illustrate that this is a spring, timing and or firing pin hole length/size/weight issue and not a pressure issue unless we are to believe factory ammo is routinely sent out above SAAMI max.

[P Flados]

FYI,

I reload primers.

I use range pickup brass as one source of spent primers.

I have inspected a lot of factory ammo primers as fired from a lot of different guns. Primer appearance can be all over the map depending on the gun the ammo is fired from. I do not see any value in "reading" primer appearance without a good "reference appearance".

Primer appearance can be used to estimate pressure for one specific gun when a "reference appearance" is established. If someone exactly duplicates a published load, the primer from this load can be used as one reference point. To be accurate it would probably be better to duplicate more than one "known" load. Running a ladder up to the reference load also gives you reference primers for comparison. The primer appearance will probably change as pressure is increased and specific details may become apparent at specific points. For example, onset of cratering may occur at a specific point in the ladder (say 0.8 grs under max).

The above is not all that that easy and may or may not be conclusive for a given gun at the desired pressure. Most are not willing to go to the effort to carefully "do it right".

[M-Tecs]

FYI,

I reload primers.

I use range pickup brass as one source of spent primers.

I have inspected a lot of factory ammo primers as fired from a lot of different guns. Primer appearance can be all over the map depending on the gun the ammo is fired from. I do not see any value in "reading" primer appearance without a good "reference appearance".

Primer appearance can be used to estimate pressure for one specific gun when a "reference appearance" is established. If someone exactly duplicates a published load, the primer from this load can be used as one reference point. To be accurate it would probably be better to duplicate more than one "known" load. Running a ladder up to the reference load also gives you reference primers for comparison. The primer appearance will probably change as pressure is increased and specific details may become apparent at specific points. For example, onset of cratering may occur at a specific point in the ladder (say 0.8 grs under max).

The above is not all that that easy and may or may not be conclusive for a given gun at the desired pressure. Most are not willing to go to the effort to carefully "do it right".

Agree 100% with the higher pressure loads in rifles. Reading the primer provides valuable information. In low pressure loads like 45 Colt at 14,000 PSI or under not so much. Same for lower pressure semi-autos loads. Most handgun primers don't start showing actual pressure indicators until above 40,000 PSI. In rifles that about 65,000 PSI. Your 1873 first gen Colt and your 1873 trapdoor will be in pieces long before you get "pressure indicators" from your primer.

Both of my Sig 365 XL's have fairly heavy firing pin drag marks. They are both 100% reliable and I could care less about the drag markets.

[414gates]

It is not possible to determine pressure by looking at primers. If it was, strain gauges would not be necessary.

For your pistol, if the primer is not perforating, if the primer pocket is not expanding or if the primer is not being blown out, it is not too hot.

The barrel link on your 1911 will break when the load is too hot for the pistol.

Having said that, it is prudent to verify at what point your reloads are now by checking velocity.

[M-Tecs]

A friend of my dads took the top strap and top three cylinders off an 1873 Colt 45 colt clone with a Ruger only load. The case head stayed in the cylinder. Primer looked fine.

[44MAG#1]

A friend of my dads took the top strap and top three cylinders off an 1873 Colt 45 colt clone with a Ruger only load. The case head stayed in the cylinder. Primer looked fine.

Did he not see where the data was listed as a RUGER ONLY LOAD?
On loading data I try to read and absorb all pertinent info

[TurnipEaterDown]

Agree 100% with the higher pressure loads in rifles. Reading the primer provides valuable information. In low pressure loads like 45 Colt at 14,000 PSI or under not so much. Same for lower pressure semi-autos loads. Most handgun primers don't start showing actual pressure indicators until above 40,000 PSI. In rifles that about 65,000 PSI. Your 1873 first gen Colt and your 1873 trapdoor will be in pieces long before you get "pressure indicators" from your primer.

Both of my Sig 365 XL's have fairly heavy firing pin drag marks. They are both 100% reliable and I could care less about the drag markets.

This is what I do too on higher pressure rifle rounds where I have little to go on -- i.e. wildcats, surplus powders, etc.

Fire some known loadings of powder & bullet (manual or reliable wildcat data) and work up to Max identified. This has assumptions baked in, but Generally conservative.

Measure case length to shoulder accurately. Comparator w/ insert that mates to shoulder works OK.
Record velocity, charge, calculate energy, and changes in velocity and energy per charge weight change.
Look at the primer of published loadings for That One Gun under a magnifier (I use a pocket loupe) for characteristics such as the width of the flattened area of primer face (annulus), presence & "definition" of machining marks from bolt face transposed to primer face, presence & "definition" of defects from bolt face like pits transferring as bumps on primer, sharpness of transition from edge of primer face to firing pin indent, finish of the firing pin indent on fired primer (i.e. does the surface of the indent look like an unfired primer face or is it Very smooth & shiny, can metal shearing been seen in the pin indent, etc.), and the transition from the tip of the firing pin indent to the "walls" of the firing pin indent. Basically, look for Changes in Any Surface feature of the fired primer across the incremental charges of known/published "safe" loadings, and be cognizant of all these characteristics at the max loading.

Change powder Or bullet, etc. to unknown / unpublished component in load. One thing at a time.
Run incremental powder test on best judgement for charge range, look at velocity during shooting, and look at the primer appearance in detail as best I can as above at the range and every fired case at home. Also look at case length change (never found this too useful on front lug bolt guns, but have recently on Lever guns).

Work up to energy limit established as above in "known" section IF none of the primer deformation signs on the "unknown" load exceeds the signs seen on the "known" load, and the case length change doesn't exceed the "known" loading(s).

Look at energy per charge weight to understand if the powder is still acting as expected (when using a Surplus powder, or a canister powder in a wildcat).

In the case of surplus powder, I also try to keep my "experimenting" to guns of high strength margin until I believe (personal risk judgement, may not apply to any other person) that I understand the characteristics enough to move to something more "risky" like compounding factors 2 or 3 at a time (transfer use to a wildcat w/ a unpublished bullet, etc.).

Obviously this applies to One Gun at at time as the "primer signs" are all about how the deformation of the primer appears in the unknown load versus the same fixed physical constraint system with a "known" load. If a different gun is used the machining finish and profile of all these mating parts changes, so irrational to expect the same "signs" from a different firearm -- the parts are different.
I think this also works OK, as in a bolt gun w/ properly sized brass, nothing should be moving to any appreciable degree except the firing pin.

Several older sources suggest measuring case head expansion with a blade mic, so years ago I got one.
I never use it much though, as the people proposing this method seem to disagree on things like expansion limit, case prep, case condition (new, once fired, and multiple firings), and so it seems hard to get a "guardrail" if you will.
I did measure case heads for a while, and did see the 0.001 - 0.0015" change on loads that produced other (obvious) pressure signs like ejector slot / plunger marks, but I figure if I saw that I would have known to back down to an estimated reduction in pressure by 10% anyway (bolt gun guideline for Me -- start to see EJ marking, safe pressure was about 10% behind ya).

[charlie b]

There can be a lot of primer 'movement' even in lower pressure loads.

I don't much pay attention unless I have some good references for that specific primer (mfg and type) and that cartridge in that specific weapon. Yes, I can fire, eg a 9mm, in one pistol and everything looks fine. In another pistol the primer looks cratered and another it will be flattened a bit more. That specific case was done with factory ammo.

[racepres]

There can be a lot of primer 'movement' even in lower pressure loads.

I don't much pay attention unless I have some good references for that specific primer (mfg and type) and that cartridge in that specific weapon. Yes, I can fire, eg a 9mm, in one pistol and everything looks fine. In another pistol the primer looks cratered and another it will be flattened a bit more. That specific case was done with factory ammo.

Maybe true, maybe Not, that powder Burn speed attributes to "drag" at primer... Since I do Not prefer "Self Shuckers" ...IDK

[mattd]

I don't have any primer drag. Unless that scalloping can qualify. However, the scalloping isn't touching the firing pin dent. If it is dragging, it would almost be like it made square/even contact, the pin recoiled back, and as the case was ejecting it recoiled forward and took a scoop out, off center.

I do have reference rounds. The 15 cases on the right in the original pic are the same primers, gun, etc. Nothing weird there. The others are the particular load in question, but range from min to max in the Lee manual. All show cratering and/or other markings.

That manual doesn't show pressure at min, but at max it shows as 19600 psi. For the 15 cases on the right, 5.5g W231, that Lee manual shows 5.6g of 231 at 16900 cup. An internet conversion calculator shows that's only 7700p psi.

So, is the consensus that I'm safe to continue with this loading? Are there solutions to keep it from happening?

[dverna]

Interesting thread. It has convinced me I have one year of experience....in the 50 years I have been reloading.

I cannot answer the question posed by the OP. Really puzzling as he is using published loads.

I never worried about pressure in pistol loads but never reloaded anything exotic. .380, .38/.357, 9mm, 40 S&W, ..44 Mag, 45 ACP, and .45LC. Never loaded anything at maximum and used canister powders that I had data for. Pretty mundane life.

Good point made about how a primer cannot tell if it is in a 20k or 40k cartridge. Seems “reading” primers on .38 Spl or .45 ACP loads is not a good way to evaluate load safety.

[35remington]

As long as the pistol functions normally and velocities are within the normal range the “solution to keep it from happening” is to recognize it as the insignificant thing it actually is and get on with it.

Internet “conversions” of psi to cup are totally and completely invalid. Do not use them….total garbage.

[mattd]

Shot a few more at the upper end. Loaded .005 longer. half were Win LPP, half the same CCIs as before.

The Win primers showed nothing weird. Shot those first and figured the longer length had solved it.

The CCIs showed the same as before. No firing pin mark, scalloping, etc.

So I guess that removes primer drag and the firing pin from the equation? If so, Having a hard time wrapping my head around why the CCI works great in 44 mag and flows so much in 45 acp.

[FISH4BUGS]

apparently...the way we have been using primers as pressure indicaters for years "is all wrong" and doesnt work...according to many out there now...you "just have to use a chronograph" and plot curves on a graph and look for flat spots and drops in velocity or your just an old fashioned fuddy duddy who knows nothing....apparently.

Gosh...I will need to start seeing my therapist again. The crushing knowledge that I have been doing this all wrong for 40+ years is depressing. :)

[josper]

I just bought an accurate mold 45-200H .its a clone of the H&G 68. I had no idea what the OAL is supposed to be. I set it so the case mouth was just even with the top band on the bullet. it was 1.211 as I recall. what did you come up with and how?? Reply to "mostlyleverguns"

[44MAG#1]

When I load the H&G 68 I use 1.250 OAL. Works fine. Don't pay attention to primers myself probably 90 percent of the time.