Home made vs GOEX vs Swiss

[waksupi]

Interesting test and comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-V7Z1PfrbQ

[jim 44-40]

Interesting test and comments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-V7Z1PfrbQ

Interesting indeed,

[GoexBlackhorn]

Good for you Willard. Hats off & tipped at ya'....:awesome:
------------------------------

I am not a rude or aggressive Bub
That was yesterday Me.

[dondiego]

Good presentation!

[HamGunner]

He found that he was not actually using "Willow" and certainly not Black Willow. He found that he was actually using what he said is locally called Desert Willow, though it is really "Chilopsis Lineari" or a plant in the Catalpa family.

It was fast, just really dirty.
I think in one of the videos he mentioned that he was likely over cooking his charcoal and has fixed that by only cooking to 600 degrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7uteTZ8rZY

And he tried using Sodium Nitrate: Interesting for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8tdF2sj5-s

[HWooldridge]

If sodium nitrate is that sensitive to water absorption, it makes me wonder how it was used effectively in blasting applications without some type of waterproofing. Firearms were obviously exposed to bad weather but think about trying to use blasting powder for mining or military reasons. Assuming the storage barrels were moderately dry, the stuff would have turned into black pea soup and rendered unusable if water attacked that fast. I suspect the manufacturers added a component to the process which helped the hygroscopic properties.

Back in the 50’s before I was born, my dad loaded an old percussion, single barrel shotgun with some type of “blasting powder” and the gun blew up in his hands on the first shot. He told me much later that he thought the barrel was corroded and would have turned loose with regular black powder but no way to know at this point.

[freakonaleash]

As easy as black powder is to get I'm not likely to ever spend all that time making my own.

[LAGS]

You are correct that making your own powder does take a little time.
But so does reloading your own ammo.
But the making your own BP keeps alive the history of the place shooting started.
Plus the cost is way cheaper , the same as reloading modern ammo is.
Just the part of banking away knowledge is well worth it and makes you appreciate the history of what our forefathers went thru to survive.

[HamGunner]

I understand that many either do not have the time or do not want to spend all their time in such an endeavor as making their own products. Locally, Black Powder is not so readily available and has not been for some time now. It is mostly due to the Goex plant being shut down over a year ago I suppose. It should be back in production before long as Estes bought the plant and is working on getting it going again. Black Powder may be much easier to find in my area in a year or so, but for now, I do not see it as "easy to get" nor at a reasonable price for me.

Most of the large vendors online are "out of stock" and those that do have some do not have all the brands nor granulations. Small gun shops here and there might still have some old stock Black Powder, but for the most part, new stock REAL Black Powder does not seem to be readily available. I just searched online, it is becoming high dollar with prices being at a minimum $25/lb. on up to $35/lb. before shipping and hazmat fees. I can make it for close to $5/lb.

In any event, even if Black Powder was available in every gun shop in the U S A, I would still be making my own. Not because it is high priced, necessarily, and it certainly has gotten just about cost prohibitive, but I make it just because I can make it. The same with stamping out my gas checks, molding my own ball, conical, and bullets. I make my own wads, blend up my own bullet lube as well as the chemicals for both my home made percussion caps and center fire primers. I do it because I can and I enjoy doing it.

This is something that I like to do, no matter the time involved, although I am retired and that helps a whole bunch. It is a matter of time available and enjoyment of the task I suppose, but I have always enjoyed the challenge and the ability of being as self-sufficient as possible. Others, I know, are not as interested in such time consuming and tedious chores. It certainly does take a good bit of time to make one's own. But it is doable and the end product can be as good as or even better than store bought.

[dtknowles]

I am new to making my own black powder. Black Powder has not been available over the counter locally for a very long time. I switched to subs all that time but now I am making my own and learning the nuances. It is cheap and easy to make black powder but harder to make good black powder. I don't consider any of my black powder good yet, but it is good enough for plinking. No doubt it would hunt but not going to win competitions. Mostly I am just having fun.
Tim

[freakonaleash]

You can have real black powder shipped right to your door.

[steveu]

Great presentation, lots of good information for those that want to make there own.

[indian joe]

As easy as black powder is to get I'm not likely to ever spend all that time making my own.

only easy to get some places!

[indian joe]

I am new to making my own black powder. Black Powder has not been available over the counter locally for a very long time. I switched to subs all that time but now I am making my own and learning the nuances. It is cheap and easy to make black powder but harder to make good black powder. I don't consider any of my black powder good yet, but it is good enough for plinking. No doubt it would hunt but not going to win competitions. Mostly I am just having fun.
Tim

keep at it -- you can make powder that will get you results as good as anything you can buy (including swiss)

[FrankJD]

There's black powder and then there's BLACK POWDER.

Have yet to see the home made stuff work anywhere nearly as well as Swiss or any other reputable commercial flavor.

Until the Gubbermint shuts down black powder mail order, and I think they will eventually, as long as there's idiots in the US administration wheelhouse, it's the only way to go for BP purchases for most folks. Buy as much as you can afford right now and stock up, mates. Thankfully, BP is good forever, unlike that white powder crap.

[dondiego]

[QUOTE=FrankJD;5505111]There's black powder and then there's BLACK POWDER.

Have yet to see the home made stuff work anywhere nearly as well as Swiss or any other reputable commercial flavor.


You'd be wrong about that!

[FrankJD]

[QUOTE=FrankJD;5505111]There's black powder and then there's BLACK POWDER.

Have yet to see the home made stuff work anywhere nearly as well as Swiss or any other reputable commercial flavor.


You'd be wrong about that!

Happy and glad to be wrong. Show me.

[dondiego]

[QUOTE=dondiego;5505209]

Happy and glad to be wrong. Show me.

Start by reading this thread.

[FrankJD]

[QUOTE=FrankJD;5505212]

Start by reading this thread.

Not good enuf for me, sorry. If you can make the equivalent of Swiss, any granulation, show me.

[Doughty]

"show me." I thought you where from Jersey, not Missouri. Anyway, you could read the whole Sticky at the top of this forum, "My Homemade Powder" or you could skip to the last few pages. Get shown as much as you want.

[almar]

As easy as black powder is to get I'm not likely to ever spend all that time making my own.

When you develop a method to it and get the right tools, it becomes alot more of a streamlined process. Yeah its inconvenient to work at something and learn but there is a reward to it like with most things in life. I first learned to reload my ammo when i got my first centerfire, then almost simultaneously learned to cast. Later on i bought black powder firearms like the flintlock, percussion then 45 colt, 45-90 etc and learned to make my own powder, then primers. I now don't care about shortages and shoot for pennies on the dollar. You don't get nothing for nothing. I don't mean to seem salty about it and i'm not directing this at you per say, but so many people around me these days seem too unwilling to get uncomfortable. Which is unfortunate.

[almar]

There's black powder and then there's BLACK POWDER.

Have yet to see the home made stuff work anywhere nearly as well as Swiss or any other reputable commercial flavor.

Until the Gubbermint shuts down black powder mail order, and I think they will eventually, as long as there's idiots in the US administration wheelhouse, it's the only way to go for BP purchases for most folks. Buy as much as you can afford right now and stock up, mates. Thankfully, BP is good forever, unlike that white powder crap.

I've beaten swiss for power and fouling by a significant amount. If you don't have the motivation to look in the homemade BP thread for examples i dont have the motivation to "show you" here. Many people on that thread like indian joe linstrum and others are wealth of knowledge on the matter.

[HWooldridge]

[QUOTE=dondiego;5505231]

Not good enuf for me, sorry. If you can make the equivalent of Swiss, any granulation, show me.

This guy used a chronograph - with Goex and Swiss as his benchmarks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-V7Z1PfrbQ

In one of his videos (might be this one) he comments on Swiss and why he believes it burns so cleanly.

[megasupermagnum]

That's definitely an interesting video, but I'm more concerned with those atrocious velocity spreads. There can be more than one cause of this I've found, but I do have to question how well his loads are actually working to begin with. At close range, probably not a huge deal, but if you are going through the trouble of swabbing between shots, and measuring with a chronograph, I'm guessing the goal is better shooting accuracy.

In my own testing I've found little issue in how dirty a powder is. Some powders such as Goex Fg leave your patch blacker, but the fouling swabs really easy and it shoots really good. Some others such as Swiss FFFg might leave less fouling, but it seems drier most days requiring a wetter patch. Now I do think the patches in the video with home powder do look rather excessive. I've never got anything that dirty, and I think at a certain point you might just have more fouling than can be handled with a patch.

Another thing that seems odd is in one of his shots his lock fails to ignite the prime. I think I may have seen a single spark, but it sure isn't a well working lock. That's not to belittle this guy, I've had it happen plenty to me. I think it just shows that there are usually bigger fish to fry than worrying how dirty a patch is.

When it comes to powder I look at #1 reliability, #2 accuracy/consistency. Beyond that I really don't care. I'd say his homemade powder looks to be working pretty good. If you can get it a little cleaner, good. But I wouldn't do that at the sacrifice of #1 and #2. I would gladly sacrifice that "velocity" though. It's a muzzleloader. If you want higher velocity, use more powder. Put 70 grains of that Goex in there and it will probably be faster than that homemade stuff at 50gr.

[HWooldridge]

I always used 70 grs FFFg Goex in my .45 muzzleloader with a patched RB, and 90 grs in the .54. Both were quite accurate and grouped well at 100 yds. I never had much use for light loads. Load ‘em up and let ‘er rip…

[indian joe]

There's black powder and then there's BLACK POWDER.

Have yet to see the home made stuff work anywhere nearly as well as Swiss or any other reputable commercial flavor.

Until the Gubbermint shuts down black powder mail order, and I think they will eventually, as long as there's idiots in the US administration wheelhouse, it's the only way to go for BP purchases for most folks. Buy as much as you can afford right now and stock up, mates. Thankfully, BP is good forever, unlike that white powder crap.

308410 five shots at 100 yards out of a 45/75 uberti - homemade FFg - 460 grain CBE boolit - homemade vernier tang sight. (The pointy boolit is single loaded)

using a 335 grain cast boolit this gun delivers 1510 FPS 20 feet from the muzzle - this load is magazine functional.(proper length for the action)

using a LEE 405 boolit a ten shot string with no cleaning between shots gave an Extreme Spread of 9FPS

this powder shoots cleaner in the gun(s) than any I have ever bought

velocity is in excess of old vintage GOEX - performance is so far ahead of Wano its a joke - I cant buy Swiss so I dont know but I bet i am right up there with it.

dunno what else you want but I will never buy another can of commercial BP in my life !!!

and yeah I called the one high and right as pulled (just a tad)

[indian joe]

That's definitely an interesting video, but I'm more concerned with those atrocious velocity spreads. There can be more than one cause of this I've found, but I do have to question how well his loads are actually working to begin with. At close range, probably not a huge deal, but if you are going through the trouble of swabbing between shots, and measuring with a chronograph, I'm guessing the goal is better shooting accuracy.

In my own testing I've found little issue in how dirty a powder is. Some powders such as Goex Fg leave your patch blacker, but the fouling swabs really easy and it shoots really good. Some others such as Swiss FFFg might leave less fouling, but it seems drier most days requiring a wetter patch. Now I do think the patches in the video with home powder do look rather excessive. I've never got anything that dirty, and I think at a certain point you might just have more fouling than can be handled with a patch.

Another thing that seems odd is in one of his shots his lock fails to ignite the prime. I think I may have seen a single spark, but it sure isn't a well working lock. That's not to belittle this guy, I've had it happen plenty to me. I think it just shows that there are usually bigger fish to fry than worrying how dirty a patch is.

When it comes to powder I look at #1 reliability, #2 accuracy/consistency. Beyond that I really don't care. I'd say his homemade powder looks to be working pretty good. If you can get it a little cleaner, good. But I wouldn't do that at the sacrifice of #1 and #2. I would gladly sacrifice that "velocity" though. It's a muzzleloader. If you want higher velocity, use more powder. Put 70 grains of that Goex in there and it will probably be faster than that homemade stuff at 50gr.

when I started in on muzzleloading one of my mantras was "I will not clean this thing between shots to make it work" .... yeah it took a while to figure out - I would foul out at no 7 or 8 - Sam Fadalas book got me to change onto moose milk lube and never looked back - homemade powder made the process a whole lot easier.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=FrankJD;5505111]There's black powder and then there's BLACK POWDER.

Have yet to see the home made stuff work anywhere nearly as well as Swiss or any other reputable commercial flavor.


You'd be wrong about that!

yep !! 100% wrong!!!!

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=dondiego;5505231]

Not good enuf for me, sorry. If you can make the equivalent of Swiss, any granulation, show me.

showed ya above - now call me a liar and we know where we at!

[Ferryboatcaptain]

308419. Made my first batch of powder during the summer . The things I shoot can’t tell the difference between my powder and Swiss. FBC

[Ferryboatcaptain]

308421

[HamGunner]

There is Black Powder. Yes there is and it can be whatever one wants it to be and whatever one needs it to be for them. There are all sorts of commercial brands and have been off and on for years, but not all work exactly the same. Some work really well in cannons and for skirmish loading, etc. and can be a bit dirty due to mostly the type of charcoal used along with the methods of production. Then there are those that work better in the smaller calibers and are much better in consistency and cleanliness which make them better for target shooting and sporting arm use.

I have learned a whole lot about making as well as shooting Black Powder here on this site and especially on the Homemade Black Powder Thread. I have not been making my own all that long, but I will say that with the help of all the hard work and education offered by others, I can now make Black Powder that is every bit as good as Goex in velocity, accuracy, and cleanliness. I might never attain Swiss quality, but I do strive to improve my methods anytime I can especially with the consideration of the improvements in the process discussed by others or with their advice.

Home Made Black is doable. Just depends upon what one wants to do to get there. If one does not intend to strive for good Black Powder, they will never attain it. Might as well just bite the bullet and buy it, if it can be found to be bought.

[almar]

velocites with one of my batches vs swiss 45 colt SAA

308437

[FrankJD]

GOOD .... but NOT excellent ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7msEfWXdQU

[megasupermagnum]

when I started in on muzzleloading one of my mantras was "I will not clean this thing between shots to make it work" .... yeah it took a while to figure out - I would foul out at no 7 or 8 - Sam Fadalas book got me to change onto moose milk lube and never looked back - homemade powder made the process a whole lot easier.

That's all fine and good for target shooting, but lubes such as water, spit, moose milk, washer fluid, etc. are completely useless to hunters or anyone who wont be taking a shot within say 15 minutes of when they load. Those are the types of lubes needed to truly shoot and have a ball patch wipe your bore too on the way down. Grease type lubes such as beeswax/olive oil, crisco, bore butter, mink oil, and bear grease simply can't get there from here. They aren't liquids, so they can't really soften the fouling much, and a patch alone isn't enough to do it. I suppose one could try blowing down the barrel, or using a blow tube, or you can run a cleaning patch down.

This is further complicated when you consider that you need your rifle to be able to be sighted in for a clean bore shot. I've done that testing, don't remember the thread name. I found no better method to do this than running a cleaning patch between shots to provide a nearly clean bore every time. These were not small changes either. I had to move in to 50 yards as I couldn't hit at 100. The differences I saw from a clean bore, and yes I fully cleaned the barrel every shot just for this test, and one with a fouled bore was as much as 10" difference at 50 yards. Both grouped good, but in totally different areas.

[indian joe]

That's all fine and good for target shooting, but lubes such as water, spit, moose milk, washer fluid, etc. are completely useless to hunters or anyone who wont be taking a shot within say 15 minutes of when they load. Those are the types of lubes needed to truly shoot and have a ball patch wipe your bore too on the way down. Grease type lubes such as beeswax/olive oil, crisco, bore butter, mink oil, and bear grease simply can't get there from here. They aren't liquids, so they can't really soften the fouling much, and a patch alone isn't enough to do it. I suppose one could try blowing down the barrel, or using a blow tube, or you can run a cleaning patch down.

This is further complicated when you consider that you need your rifle to be able to be sighted in for a clean bore shot. I've done that testing, don't remember the thread name. I found no better method to do this than running a cleaning patch between shots to provide a nearly clean bore every time. These were not small changes either. I had to move in to 50 yards as I couldn't hit at 100. The differences I saw from a clean bore, and yes I fully cleaned the barrel every shot just for this test, and one with a fouled bore was as much as 10" difference at 50 yards. Both grouped good, but in totally different areas.

agree with all this - two different needs
hunting lubes generally dont work for target strings and vice - versa

but never had the huge divergence you get from clean bore (fouling shot) to follow up shots though
be interesting to figure out whats causing that - mostly mine would be two to three inches off at 50 yards - usually first shot high but not the same with each gun.

I use about 25% oil in my moose milk (most blokes around 10%) - the more oily mix holds up longer in the barrel and can shoot em dry even - i used to use a backer patch (dry patch on the powder first - then the patched ball) but its a fire hazard in dry grass conditions - hard card wad proly better but have not tried it - have not hunted with a ML for ten years .

[FrankJD]

According to Willard, Swiss quality can be achieved with lots more effort ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTHypmamzFg

[indian joe]

According to Willard, Swiss quality can be achieved with lots more effort ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTHypmamzFg

Frank
once you figure it out I dont think making good quality is much more "effort" than making rubbish ---really!!
need a decent ball mill and sufficient media for it -- quality ingredients (not expensive but you need to use your noggin sourcing stuff) -- pay attention to the process -- be consistent with what you do. Swiss is held as the gold standard - I've never shot it so cant compare but Goex standard is not difficult to get and that will put you ahead of most other BP out there. For front end loader shooting the screened process is way easier and still gets good results

[BadgerShooter]

If you can get your hands on Swiss, it's really worth trying. It's very clean and consistent. Working up conical loads for my underhammer, my groups decreased by half switching from KIK to Swiss.

I do think the fouling is drier and finer.

I have not tried making bp yet, but having been involved professionally with a lot of chemical processes, I can't imagine that matching that quality can't be done.

One thing I have been messing with practicing for this primitive biathlon, to keep bore conditions relatively consistent with a minimum of time is just taking a quick pass with a brass brush between shots and dumping out the fouling. I am finding that the gun loads pretty consistently through multiple shots (over 10) and accuracy is adequate for what I need it to do. (steel swingers at 25-50 yards). I mounted the brush to the other end of the ramrod and use one end to brush and the other end to seat. Should be some faster than patching especially with the chance of dropping a patch off at the worst possible time. It may not be optimum but it should give me adequate accuracy and more speed.

[FrankJD]

Frank
once you figure it out I dont think making good quality is much more "effort" than making rubbish ---really!!
need a decent ball mill and sufficient media for it -- quality ingredients (not expensive but you need to use your noggin sourcing stuff) -- pay attention to the process -- be consistent with what you do. Swiss is held as the gold standard - I've never shot it so cant compare but Goex standard is not difficult to get and that will put you ahead of most other BP out there. For front end loader shooting the screened process is way easier and still gets good results

I hear ya, Joe. I have no desire to go the CIA/puck route, but if commercial is outlawed I'd do the "simple" BP recipe and up the charges 20%, as Willard and Co. outlined.

Once I latched onto Swiss, many years ago, that's all I use for ML and cartridge. It's the Best, period. Hope you can try some, ya might get spoiled by it. ;)

[indian joe]

I hear ya, Joe. I have no desire to go the CIA/puck route, but if commercial is outlawed I'd do the "simple" BP recipe and up the charges 20%, as Willard and Co. outlined.

Once I latched onto Swiss, many years ago, that's all I use for ML and cartridge. It's the Best, period. Hope you can try some, ya might get spoiled by it. ;)

Frank ---take a long slow read of my post #26 above (its the gospel truth - I was not blowin smoke) ....I really doubt Swiss has much advantage to offer me - certainly not near enought to justify the hassle of finding it.

Maybe ( a big maybe too) I gain 50 FPS velocity ? I already got the consistent velocity, accuracy , cleaner burn

[FrankJD]

Frank ---take a long slow read of my post #26 above (its the gospel truth - I was not blowin smoke) ....I really doubt Swiss has much advantage to offer me - certainly not near enought to justify the hassle of finding it.

Maybe ( a big maybe too) I gain 50 FPS velocity ? I already got the consistent velocity, accuracy , cleaner burn

Are you doing the puck compression method, as outlined by Willard in his #2 BP making video?

[barnetmill]

If sodium nitrate is that sensitive to water absorption, it makes me wonder how it was used effectively in blasting applications without some type of waterproofing. Firearms were obviously exposed to bad weather but think about trying to use blasting powder for mining or military reasons. Assuming the storage barrels were moderately dry, the stuff would have turned into black pea soup and rendered unusable if water attacked that fast. I suspect the manufacturers added a component to the process which helped the hygroscopic properties.

Back in the 50’s before I was born, my dad loaded an old percussion, single barrel shotgun with some type of “blasting powder” and the gun blew up in his hands on the first shot. He told me much later that he thought the barrel was corroded and would have turned loose with regular black powder but no way to know at this point.

Sodium nitrate mixed with sugar will take up water (childhood experiments with sealed pipes lol). But it does burned fast and explode when confined.

[indian joe]

Are you doing the puck compression method, as outlined by Willard in his #2 BP making video?

yeah ---but there a bunch of blokes right here on this forum (Almar and others) that have left Willard eating their dust a long ways back. Not knockin his videos but the info to do the job well is right here under our noses.

[Thundermaker]

All I know is that Schuetzen has been pretty much garbage for me, and Swiss is about $29/lb at powder Inc, and that's with the bulk discount. I gotta do something different.