Antique Winchester 1892 in 44-40 Question

[leverfan1972]

I apologize for what is a "newby" question in advance.
I just recently picked up an old Winchester 1892 in .44-.40 and having never hand loaded for this calibre I have some questions.
I slugged the barrel and it came out at 0.428. I have read all sorts of opinions on what I should be using for a projectile. Soft lead vs. hard lead, copper plated etc...and I must admit, it's a tad confusing!
I'll be using smokeless powder and want to make sure that I don't do any damage to the rifle as it was made in 1902.
Am I safe to use any lead bullet from .427 to .429?
What would your recommendations be?
Thank you all in advance for your patience!

[Brokenbear]

The 1892 is a strong action and the 44-40 can be loaded to a power house level ..or it can do nicely with loads of even less velocity than the original ammunition used in the time period

With that said one would need a bit more information as to what you want the reloads to accomplish ..which will in turn determine which bullet is best suited for the performance you desire ..

You can typically load in the 900/1000 fps velocity range with a properly lubed bullet without much leading concern and likely the .429 bullet with 2% antimony will give good service

As you push for higher velocities heat on the bullet becomes an issue that to a point can be offset with higher antimony/harder bullets but only to a point ..I have found plated bullets to be only a bit better than a medium hard lead bullet ..especially in a 18"+ inch long barrel as opposed to a 4 5/8" Colt pistol barrel

Once you start pushing above 1200 FPS you are going to start looking for a gas checked bullet or convert to a jacketed bullet ..

If you decide to push it to a deer cartridge situation study the jacketed bullets very carefully as a pistol bullet at the velocity the 44-40 is capable of out of a rifle WILL NOT perform as a large game bullet should

Bear

[Larry Gibson]

Use .429 sized bullets.

[Outpost75]

+1 on what Larry said. Accurate 43-206H is my bullet design for the .44-40. I use 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals and size .430 in my '92 and Colt New Service.

Gaschecked bullets are NOT needed in slow-twist rifles with bullets which "fit" using any safe load. In the '92 Winchester and clones OK to load 7 grs Bullseye, 8 grs Unique, 9 grs. Herco. 18 grs. #2400, 20 grs. 4227, 23 grs. 4198, or 24.5 grs. RL7.

308171308172308173

[Stopsign32v]

I want to see pictures of the 92 44-40!

[steveu]

I want to see pictures of the 92 44-40!

Me too!!!

[1Hawkeye]

My 92 src is the same bore diameter .428" and I load an arsenal 432-210 sized to .429" with 8.3 grs of unique they average 1225 fps.

[leverfan1972]

308213Here's some pictures for you :)308209308210308211

[leverfan1972]

Once you start pushing above 1200 FPS you are going to start looking for a gas checked bullet or convert to a jacketed bullet ..



Bear[/QUOTE]
Is it safe to push higher than 1200fps out of an old rifle like this one?

[HWooldridge]

A ‘92 is a very strong action. You won’t break it with any reasonable load - even if on the hot side.

[Dutchman]

Last 1892 I owned back in the 70s was a very nice looking carbine that had ~excessive~ headspace. It balloned the head of the cartridge. I'd suggest having the headspace checked so I don't loose any sleep worrying about you.

What does the stamp on the stock say?

Dutch

[john.k]

One thing I found is loose chamber ,but very tight throat........tightness of case in chamber limits bullet size.....In mine ,there is no need to size cases,a 429 bullet will seat tightly without any sizing of the fired cases..........obviously not tightly enough to resist magazine push ,unless the case full of powder method is used .........3f black ,or a casefull of 4198.

[am44mag]

Once you start pushing above 1200 FPS you are going to start looking for a gas checked bullet or convert to a jacketed bullet .

Not necessarily. I've pushed 200gr plain based cast 44 Mag bullets up to 2000 FPS in my Rossi 92 without issues, other than a sore shoulder. There's more to the equation than just velocity. A properly sized bullet with good lube and an appropriate hardness can go a long ways.


Is it safe to push higher than 1200fps out of an old rifle like this one?

The 92' is a strong action. Reasonable loads should be just fine in it. I think some of the early high velocity loads for 44-40 could exceed 1500 FPS. I'm not sure I would suggest loading ammo that hot for such an old gun, but it does illustrate that the 92' could handle some pretty hot loads back in the day.

If it were me, I'd baby it a bit more than was probably necessary, just because of the age. Cowboy loads should be perfectly safe, and they get 1000-1100 FPS out of a rifle.

https://www.hornady.com/assets/site/hornady/files/obsolete-data/44-40-winchester-rifle.pdf

[gwpercle]

Post #3 and Post #4 ... copy this advice and hang onto it .
These guy's know what they are talking about !
Great advice ...
Gary

[leverfan1972]

The stock is stamped with "China Navigation Company". Apparently there were fewer than 200 that were ordered and sent over to England. They were then issued to the ships to be used to protect the cargo. The "41" that is stamped on the stock is also stamped on all of the parts which would indicate that all the parts are original to that rifle.

[Outpost75]

One thing I found is loose chamber ,but very tight throat........tightness of case in chamber limits bullet size.....In mine ,there is no need to size cases,a 429 bullet will seat tightly without any sizing of the fired cases..........obviously not tightly enough to resist magazine push ,unless the case full of powder method is used .........3f black ,or a casefull of 4198.

Tight chamber neck with large barrel groove diameter is sometimes encountered in these rifles.

308228

Accurate 43-200QL is heeled bullet with full diameter forepart to deal with this condition.

[Bigslug]

.429 bullets are where you want to be. A middle-hardness alloy between 12 (wheelweight) and 15 BHN (Lyman #2) should suffice for the velocity ranges that rifle will want to play in. If the bullet fit is good, I don't think of gas checks as necessary until you start playing above 1600 fps.

Like pretty much any Winchester out of the mind of Browning, a '92 in good repair is overbuilt for the rounds the factory chambered them in. The '92 receiver was the genesis of the '94 - for which JMB basically chopped out the bottom to make room for a mechanism that would feed the longer .30-30.

.44-40 load data will be presented with an abundance of caution - and with good reason. There's a lot of black powder era '73's from both Colt and Winchesters out there in any condition you can imagine, and those are the pressure levels all the manuals will give you. This is not necessarily license to hot-rod a smokeless era '92, but if it's passing basic safety checks, it's not a mechanism you need to treat like a hospice patient. For the .45-70, you'll find three levels of load data listed for the weak trapdoor Springfields, for the much stouter Marlin 1895 and Winchester 1886, and the "fully modern" guns like the converted Siamese Mausers and Ruger #1's, as well as the modern steel 1885 High Walls. A '92 is absolutely an improvement over the toggle-locked guns of 20 years prior. If it passes soft-load shooting without signs of internal issues (deformed cases, sticky extraction, flattened primers, etc...), others here can undoubtedly guide you as to how much an improvement over the BP pressure data you can realize.

[Savvy Jack]

If you decide to use smokeless pressures actually designed for the normal 44-40 cartridge loads (13,000cup), any diameter lead bullet from .424 on up will swedge nicely into the bore...per John Kort's tests. If using hard lead, .428 to .429 is just fine...your milage may vary for accuracy pending shooting ranges used.

I use .428" diameter lead bullets in a .429" bore with great accuracy out to as far as I have been able to shoot, 265 yards, but maintain 4" groups at 100 yards.

Winchester manufactured the High Velocity cartridge load specifically for the Model 92' (all years) that generated up to cartridge service pressure averages of 18,000cup with cartridge proof pressure averages of 23,500cup. These W.H.V. cartridges used only .4255" diameter jacketed soft point bullets of which are no longer sold by Winchester as loading components.

Since you have never loaded this cartridge before, If only shooting out to 100 yards, Unique and Bullseye type powders will work just fine at ranges less than 100 yards when not loaded too light.

Normal smokeless velocity was 1,300fps and W.H.V. velocity was 1,564fps. Trying to achieve such velocities without using published data could exceed max pressures of both normal and even WHV original pressures....technically not necessarily an issue for a strong 92.

If pushing the max loads, it is extremely important to maintain strict measurement limits, i.e. bullet diameters, bullet seating depths, case lengths and AOL's as well as case neck retention.

Tom Selleck's Model 92' and W.H.V. ammunition (https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/g11wF2qJuMhTiRV1c7U1CorleUkhlgWwaZvtKd8Hc4mLaZ1oOC G29ZwDC6-G4KZhOaLuLUJWIxQ6MLk2N_AJnhw46fw4b_YDzuIGeLwMDPFfk IrqP79sGZeq6mOhDWP7rhq0iqC2OlwXNRLcunlwUZUUQ9kVY7T b5CiQJjNEYXt1lc0kBvter25-KLZcQow=w1280)

[beltfed]

Here is an experience of mine , shooting my second last buck with my
First Yr Production Win M92, cal 44WCF/ Original Lyman 1A tang sight

One heart shot at about 65 yds, deer went about 70 yards and dropped dead

Load was R-P cases/ WLR primer/ 22 gr IMR 4227/ Cast 429434 RNFP HP gas check-COWW/10% lino
velocity about 1330fps Load will print 1-1.5" at 75 yds
beltfed/arnie
308264

[Savvy Jack]

Here is an experience of mine , shooting my second last buck with my
First Yr Production Win M92, cal 44WCF/ Original Lyman 1A tang sight

One heart shot at about 65 yds, deer went about 70 yards and dropped dead

Load was R-P cases/ WLR primer/ 22 gr IMR 4227/ Cast 429434 RNFP HP gas check-COWW/10% lino
velocity about 1330fps Load will print 1-1.5" at 75 yds
beltfed/arnie
308264

IMR-4227 is good stuff when one can find that sweet load.

(do not try this at home, far exceeds W.H.V. Max Pressures)

26gr with the 200gr ACME Magma "Cowboy" (44-40-200 RNF BB) (https://www.magmaengineering.com/PDF/BBOct132008b.pdf) sized .428" gave me 1,733fps @ 20,913psi....maybe 24,720cup in my test barrel (no gas checks)

Using that load in my Marlin 1894CB I estimated 19,000psi and got 1,650fps. Hit golfballs at 265 yards. That was the first and last time I shot such loads with the 44-40.

The video shows 4 consecutive shots that grouped about 6" @ 265 yards.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdrUfzgFjUs

[mack2]

There is a lot of good information in an old thread by w30wcf, its about black powder but some still applies. Also you should look into black, it's not so bad once you are set up to clean the brass. The thread is My 44wcf Black Powder Journey

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey