"Brush Gun" loads for .45-70 cast HP

[alping45]

Picking up one of the new Ruger Made Marlin 1895 Trapper's tomorrow and I just ordered a
MP 462-420 HP mold to go with it.

I'd like to develop some close range "Brush Gun" loads that will be easy on the shoulder and ears out of a 16" barrel.

My thoughts are running straight soft lead and some type of pistol powder to get me around 1,000 to 1,100fps. Or trailboss maybe? I have most common pistol powders on hand as well as a keg of trailboss.

MP says the mold will drop 405gr solid and 382gr with the hollow point. If I run straight lead with the hollow point I assume I'll be +400gr.

Anyone have any experience or reccomendations with HP cast cast loads like this??

I will of course post pictures once I pick the rifle up as well :-D

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[mehavey]

For a 405gr classic load: ~12.0gr UNIQUE
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?87166-Unique-45-70-Load-Data&p=930495&viewfull=1#post930495

[hc18flyer]

There are several recent threads on .45-70 Unique and Alliant 2400 loads. May be in the Single Shot folder. I also remember Folks suggesting a 20 to 1 alloy over pure lead. I am using similar loads in a Browning Hi Wall rifle, 300 to 405 grains, plain based bullets. Best of luck with your new rifle.
hc18flyer

[gwpercle]

I wouldn't go straight pure lead ... too soft , 1 part tin / 20 parts lead (1/20) will work better for 1000 - 1100 fps velocity . Fit is most important especialy with Micro-groove rifling in Marlins ... will your rifle have standard cut or the Micro-groove .
Gary

[BLAHUT]

I use a Lee 515 gr bullet .561, in pure lead, with 27 grs of 5744 under it, in my guide gun, for my bear load, carried this for fishing.

[Ben]

Don't size the bullet too small.

[Castaway]

A little tin goes a long way on getting mould fill-out. Classical advice is pure lead for muzzleloaders, but missing from that is that round balls are what they’re talking about. Round balls will fill out with pure lead where a conical will give you problems. At slower velocities, I would tend to make the bullets a little harder so I wouldn’t be pushing a parachute through a critter. A harder bullet will make a good wound channel with a better chance for an exit wound

[NSB]

Pistol powders can be problematic. It’s a big case and you can have erratic ignition/groups with some of them if the powder is not sitting on the primer end when fired. That opens up a different can of worms regarding fillers, etc. Try using a powder that fills more of the case and is known to NOT be position sensitive. Your goal of 1,000-1,100 fps is really on the light side. I shoot “light” loads but they’re still around 1,300-1,400 fps and they aren’t at all abusive with 400g bullets. Using lighter bullets will soften them up quite a bit more. Don’t use pure lead for reasons listed above and make sure you slug your barrel and go .0015”-.002” larger.

[alping45]

I wouldn't go straight pure lead ... too soft , 1 part tin / 20 parts lead (1/20) will work better for 1000 - 1100 fps velocity . Fit is most important especialy with Micro-groove rifling in Marlins ... will your rifle have standard cut or the Micro-groove .
Gary

No more micro groove. Cold forged 6 groove 1:20 twist on the new Ruger made guns.

Still sounds like a 20 to 1 alloy is the way to go based on recommendations.

[mehavey]

If standard Ballard rifling/PP, suggest 1-30 or even pure lead (which the Sharps definitely liked)
(1,385 fps average using setup in Post#2 (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?450875-quot-Brush-Gun-quot-loads-for-45-70-cast-HP&p=5501759&viewfull=1#post5501759))

Test will be how easily it feeds/hitting ramp being soft

[fredj338]

Go to the Lyman manual & look at starting loads for the Trapdoor. I would up the vel to about 1200fps. Still very easy shooting & will work well on any deer or hog.

[stubshaft]

22.0 2400 is what I use, easy shooting and thumps hogs.

[mehavey]

Pistol powders can be problematic. It’s a big case and you can have erratic ignition/groups
with some of them if the powder is not sitting on the primer end when fired. OK --- I/m going cast/powdercoat some 30-1 405s, run 12gr Unique out of a Marlin GBL and fire a 50yd (brush gun) test over a LABRADAR. No particular attention paid to positioning.

[Bigslug]

308134

308135

20-1 lead/tin gives good accuracy at velocities in the 1200-ish FPS range, and it holds together nicely - through water at least. Top photo is a .32 130 grain WFN, bottom is a 180 grain WFN .40 S&W bullet pressed into service for testing a 38-40 rifle.

Your mileage may vary, but I find about 1600 fps / 400 grains to be about the point where an 1895 Marlin quits being fun and starts being painful. 1000 fps nears .22LR comfort. I would recommend figuring out what your threshold is and adjust from there. The trajectory is going to be HORRIBLE regardless - no sense making it worse than necessary.

[Rockindaddy]

Could never get my 1895 Marlin (336)( pre-lawyer no cross bolt safety) with micro groove rifling to shoot well unless I shot boolits sized to .460. Size your bullets to at least .458 or larger if they will load and chamber. Use 4759, 4198, 5477, or my favorite Reloader No 7 1-20 tin and lots of good lube with beeswax. Reloader No 7 will get you great velocity and the lowest pressure. Should be able to drive em to 1600fps without a gas check! My old fire sale Marlin has put alot of Bambi fur on the ground.

[725]

Great bullet choice. Stay in the trap door load level. The beauty of the .45-70 is that you don't have to goose it to make it go.

[SoonerEd]

I use that bullet without a HP cast of range lead at ~ 8 BHN with Trailboss at 1,100-1,200 fps out of a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun for hunting pigs in the swamp. At 50 yards it works fine and just rolls pigs. Most of my shots are 20-40 yards. This load is mild and works great at this limited range and velocity. If I were shooting at 100 I would want a different load with more velocity and better accuracy. Which would likely require increasing the hardness some to match the velocity.

[pworley1]

You should be able to use any of the Trapdoor level loads to meet your needs.

[NSB]

OK --- I/m going cast/powdercoat some 30-1 405s, run 12gr Unique out of a Marlin GBL and fire a 50yd (brush gun) test over a LABRADAR. No particular attention paid to positioning.
You’ll learn nothing that way. If you do the same loading technique each time without trying different variables you’ll either get it all right or all wrong. Turn some up and turn some down and compare the two methods. Do it with each powder tried. Shoot five of each and measure the groups. If you have a chronograph measure velocity also. Doing things randomly doesn’t teach you anything. (I made a career out of doing designed experiments….with great success).

[Frosty Boolit]

I shoot whatever alloy happens to be in the pot with trail boss and have got great groups at 50 yards with 405gr, 360gr NOE, and 300 grain of unknown alloy I got in trade. It seems that 14 grains of trail boss with any of them works great.

[Loudy13]

I shoot a 388gr HP with 12.5 grains of Trail Boss its subsonic and will hit steel at 200m @ 100 it is super accurate no recoil but still makes some noise.
Hogdon has a load chart for Trail boss which includes the 45-70 with multiple different loads

[mehavey]

Unique/12.0gr
Gould 330 Clone using Pure Lead/PC'd
50 "brush gun" yds

NO powder positioning -- just rack into chamber and shoot
(I did use a bag)
;)

https://i.postimg.cc/h46P2C4c/Marlin-45-70-GBL-ACC-46-340-LG-Unique-12gr-50yd-sm.jpg

[BLAHUT]

Unique/12.0gr
Gould 330 Clone using Pure Lead/PC'd
50 "brush gun" yds

NO powder positioning -- just rack into chamber and shoot
(I did use a bag)
;)

https://i.postimg.cc/h46P2C4c/Marlin-45-70-GBL-ACC-46-340-LG-Unique-12gr-50yd-sm.jpg

If you wanted too? You can bump the bullet up to 500+ grs and put 12.5 gr unique under it for about 1180 FPS. Real accurate.

[alping45]

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[alping45]

Well here are some pics of the rifle. Unfortunately it looks like the image hosting site murdered the resolution of the pictures, but you get the idea.

I had a handful of boolits left over from a Lyman 457122 mold that I cast years ago, don't even know what alloy the were but they weighed 345gr. I loaded them up with as much trailboss as would fit into a case without compressing and am getting 1,200fps and pretty mild recoil. Haven't tried grouping them but they were smacking my torso sized steel at 75yds without having even adjusted the sights.

[lightman]

I shoot a 405 grain bullet cast from clip-on wheelweights with a starting charge of either 3031 or 4895. It doesn't thump me too bad in a Ruger #1.

[Harter66]

I cast the 462-420 PB/HB . I cast it in 75/25 WW-1/20 . The PB ran 417gr the HB 380gr . In the 1895 G it was having no part of light loads . It is an Illion assembled rifle from New Haven parts 6 right @ 1-20" 18" . The harder I pushed it the more it liked it , 12-15 Unique was 8" groups at 13-1400 fps MV it got down to 3" about 1600 fps but any resemblance to fun was gone . I didn't try the lighter HB , I do have some 50/50 Pure/WW to try that did 7/8" expansion from a 1000 fps MV 45-200 in live Oak at 25 yd with 100% retention of weight . My thought is that if it'll group at 12-1400 it should be enough for almost anything short of a zoo break in Arkansas.

[alping45]

Well I got the MP mold, which is absolutely stunning, and cast up a batch with the "pentapoint" insert. I threw in a 1lb ingot of COWW with soft lead to fill my 10lb pot, the boolits are coming out at 407gr sized & lubed. The bore slugged at just under .458, so I sized to .459.

Hopefully I can find some time between festivities on this long weekend to get some loaded up and try them out.

[alping45]

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308340

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[Milky Duck]

now THAT is a hollowpoint!!!!

[Milky Duck]

tell me more about this dynapoint insert thing...does it sit in a flat point mold or does it need specific mold to work in??

[alping45]

The hollow point MP Molds come with a set of 4 different pins, a regular small round hollow point, a wide shallow cup hollow point, solid flat point, and the deltapoint.
The mold needs to be made to accept the pins. There are companies that can machine regular molds to accept them.

308372

[Milky Duck]

thanks for that.

[jednorris]

Trapdoor charges with 405 gr. bullet 30:1 and Bullseye Powder will fill your every wish. Recoil, accuracy, velocity and killing power.

[Winger Ed.]

If you follow the load date for the old, antique trap door Springfields,
that should get you where you want to go.
The lighter the boolit, the less the recoil will be also.

[Milky Duck]

just poked 45grns of ADI 2219 behind some 330grn gould mold boolits.... should be interesting to see terminal results,they are cast very soft,I can manipulate the HP too easily by inserting rod and rotating ,made it much bigger very easily so stopped that idea. the bullet lube had all but gone so added some home made moisturiser made mainly from tallow/oil with a bit of smelly lavender for added effect LOL... seemed about right consistancy and was at hand.