Ballard #2 .38 Long

[marlinman93]

I've steered clear of the smaller Ballard #2 rifles that were so common in .38 Long RF/CF, and .32 Long RF/CF for a long time now. But I've had a nice early pre 1881 J.M. Marlin #2 action sitting on a shelf in my safe for awhile in hopes I'd stumble across a barrel, and parts to maybe assemble another #2.
Just early this week I got a call from a friend saying he had some parts to sell that he always figured he'd get around to using, but knew he never would. So he sent me pictures of some stocks, forearms, levers, and a couple barrels. One barrel was in .38 Long, and I was immediately interested. A buttstock with buttplate was in excellent shape also, and had a matching numbers forearm too! So I sent him off some money, and today the barrel, forearm, and buttstock arrived!
Of course I had to immediately try the barrel on my action, even though it's a miracle for any Marlin Ballard barrel to index up, and headspace correctly on any other Ballard action. I've had it happen once in numerous attempts. But I spun the barrel down by hand and it stopped about 1/8th turn shy of perfect. I clamped it in my barrel vise, and put my action wrench on the action, and bingo!, it indexed right up! I reinstalled the breech block and tried closing it, and it closed, but with enough resistance to know it was more than the usual .003" crush I like. I removed the breech block, and stoned the face until some BP pitting on the face was almost gone, and tried it again. The fit was perfect, and as tight as a safe vault lockup!
I grabbed the wood and tried the buttstock fit. It too was slightly tight where it slips inside the receiver, and a few minutes with a file removed enough internal wood to fit like a glove. Then I tried the forearm, and the hanger screw wouldn't quite thread into the barrel, as the rear mating edge was tight against the receiver. A few more strokes with the file on the rear edge, and it fit and the screw went right in.
Grabbed an original rear barrel sight from my parts, and a front blade, and tapped those in too. I need to make up an 8" 5/6" through bolt to hold the stock on, and make a firing pin to replace a missing pin, and it's done! The rifling is excellent, and bore is very nice. This one is a pretty rare #2 action as it's centerfire only. Almost all #2 Ballards had a firing pin that could be turned upside down to convert from rimfire to centerfire. A small number were centerfire only like this one. .38 Long is easily made from .38 Special cases, but using a heeled bullet as they're larger diameter at around .360"-.363" bullets. I've got a couple NEI molds for this bullet, so loading for it will be cheap and easy!



https://i.imgur.com/aPTmXz6l.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/Gc38lpOl.jpg

[Mk42gunner]

No need for you to buy a lottery ticket this week, I think you have used up your available luck.

I think that parts gun will turn out very nice.

Robert

[missionary5155]

That is a fine looking #2 you have put together.
1st Ballard we bought is a 38 Long.. Many days have been spent with that rifle down in some river bottoms and field edges popping ground hogs, racoons and other farm pests.

[Deadeye Bly]

You got lucky! I've never had a Ballard barrel not original to the receiver turn up in the right place. Everything else fell into place well also. Should be a really nice #2.

[ndnchf]

Patience pays off! That will be a fun little rifle - I look forward to hearing how it shoots! I have a #2 rolling block in 38RF. I've shot it using a CF breech block.

[marlinman93]

I also have never put a used barrel on a different Ballard action and had it index up properly either! They always need some amount of work, which usually involves adjusting headspace, and rechambering. So it's almost a miracle to have one fit so well. And my friend said the barrel, stock, and forearm all came off much later Marlin Firearms marked Ballard, so this pre 1881 JM Marlin is far from close in time frame.
Have to check today to see if I have the right extractors in my parts, and will crank out a new firing pin as this action is missing the firing pin.

[Green Frog]

One of my friends here at Chinquapin SV has #2 in 38 long… he snaked it away from me at a big auction.:violin:

Anyway, he makes cases out of 38 Spl brass and uses round balls and HBWCs for projectiles and out to 50 or 100 yds it’s amazingly accurate. He’s a super shooter, but the gun has the inherent accuracy to deliver for him.

Your FrankenBallard came out a lot nicer than mine (although Frankie and I are still working on getting finished). I’m in awe at the way your mish mash of parts fit together. Frankie needed some help to get all of his parts to play nicely together. At this point I need to fit and finish a Rodney Storie cast lever (single trigger Pacific style), open up the fore end barrel channel for the heavier barrel, then polish and finish.

Your Phriendly ‘Phibian

[ndnchf]

Vall - just FYI. You may have seen this video I made a while back. I took an original 38 rimfire cartridge and refreshed it. Pulled the bullet, emptied the black powder, cleaned out the case and reprimed the rim. Then put the original powder back in, relubed and seated the original bullet. Then went to the range and fired it over the chronograph. I didn't prime the rim as well as I should have. It took a couple hits before it went off. But it was a great learning experience :mrgreen:

https://youtu.be/A8T1q0mSDHE

[marlinman93]

One of my friends here at Chinquapin SV has #2 in 38 long… he snaked it away from me at a big auction.:violin:

Anyway, he makes cases out of 38 Spl brass and uses round balls and HBWCs for projectiles and out to 50 or 100 yds it’s amazingly accurate. He’s a super shooter, but the gun has the inherent accuracy to deliver for him.

Your FrankenBallard came out a lot nicer than mine (although Frankie and I are still working on getting finished). I’m in awe at the way your mish mash of parts fit together. Frankie needed some help to get all of his parts to play nicely together. At this point I need to fit and finish a Rodney Storie cast lever (single trigger Pacific style), open up the fore end barrel channel for the heavier barrel, then polish and finish.

Your Phriendly ‘Phibian

My first Ballard was the same #2 in .38 Long, but had a rotten bore. I also used round balls with .38 Special brass, but it was such a poor bore it never shot well.
I have two .38 Long heeled bullet molds, so one of the two will work. One is an original old Ideal at 120 gr., and the other an NEI 140 gr.

I dug out a spare extractor today, and it was a .38 extractor! Fit like a glove! Then I got my drill rod out which I bought for firing pins as it has the correct diameter. Cut off a piece and chucked it in the drill press and turned down the tip to fit, and then marked and cut it to length. Cut the retaining notch with a rat tail file and finished it.
Still need to go buy a 8" long 5/16" bolt to build the through bolt, and then it's a complete rifle!

[marlinman93]

Vall - just FYI. You may have seen this video I made a while back. I took an original 38 rimfire cartridge and refreshed it. Pulled the bullet, emptied the black powder, cleaned out the case and reprimed the rim. Then put the original powder back in, relubed and seated the original bullet. Then went to the range and fired it over the chronograph. I didn't prime the rim as well as I should have. It took a couple hits before it went off. But it was a great learning experience :mrgreen:

https://youtu.be/A8T1q0mSDHE


Well this #2 is not the typical Ballard reversible firing pin breech block. It's a centerfire only block Steve. Likely the rifle it came from was either a .44-40, or a .32-20 as those didn't get the usual reversible firing pins. So it wont see any rimfire cartridges at all.

[Ajohns]

That, is nice setup!
I have a Mini Martini in 380 long and have had a lot of fun shooting it. I hope you have success with this beauty

[ndnchf]

Well this #2 is not the typical Ballard reversible firing pin breech block. It's a centerfire only block Steve. Likely the rifle it came from was either a .44-40, or a .32-20 as those didn't get the usual reversible firing pins. So it wont see any rimfire cartridges at all.

That will be much easier! I look forward to hearing your progress ��

[Bigslug]

Possibly one of the more "educational" rifles I've been exposed to. Dad's needed a re-sleeve to .38 LC, and it keyed us in to the fun you can have with stuff that (A.) is not a .22 rimfire, and (B.) doesn't make an earth-shattering "KABOOM!" and beat the snot out of you. Ended up with one of Accurate's wide BP lube groove molds around the 150-150 range as I recall and shoot it with Triple 7. Expensive lesson - it led directly to my Martini Cadet.:roll:

[marlinman93]

The .38 Long and .32 Long often get looked down upon. But in a Ballard #2 with their reversible firing pin, or CF only firing pin this is a wonderful cartridge, and can be extremely accurate if the rifle has a great bore. Bullets are the biggest issue, as you really need to be set up to cast since almost nobody sells heeled bullets for these two cartridges.
Used to be a company that sold these bullets, and even sold loaded ammo, but I'm not sure if they're still around? The only place people can buy these heeled bullets today is Bear Creek Supply, and they offer just one bullet type in a 140 gr.

[ndnchf]

Old West sells a variety of heel bullets, molds and loading gear. I've used his .38 heel bullets and they worked well in my .38 rimfire rolling block.
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/categories/cast-bullets

[marlinman93]

Old West sells a variety of heel bullets, molds and loading gear. I've used his .38 heel bullets and they worked well in my .38 rimfire rolling block.
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/categories/cast-bullets

Thanks Steve!
I have a couple of his molds, but didn't know he also sold cast bullets? Another great resource for those who don't cast!

[Ajohns]

"The only place people can buy these heeled bullets today is Bear Creek Supply, and they offer just one bullet type in a 140 gr."

Quote from above.

Have you had good luck with these? So far I haven't, but would like to know others' experiences because I have a lot of them.
And yes, Old West is a very good resource for sure.

[gnoahhh]

I'm green with envy, Vall. (Maybe not as green as our Phibian Phriend, but green nonetheless!)

I too have a spare #2 CF action, firing pin same as yours, with no clue as to what cartridge it fired originally. (It came with a .40-70 barrel on it, of all things.) Your project gave me an idea - barrel it with a .357 dimensioned unit and chamber it with a .38 Special reamer, but stopped well short of full depth so no dim bulbs would ever shoot .38Spl +P rounds in it. Call it a catchy name and stamp that on the barrel. (.38 Weeny comes to mind, haha!) Use standard .38 dies and molds to build low pressure fodder for it with shortened .38 brass.

I didn't realize CF-only #2's were rare. Thanks for the tutorial.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello marlinman93,

I did a cartridge conversion with a Pietta 1858 to .44 Colt and swaged the heel.
It was a little die I made, very simple process.
Here is what I plan on using for the 38 Long Colt.

AntiqueSledMan.

[pworley1]

Congratulations!! Great looking rifle.

[marlinman93]

I'm green with envy, Vall. (Maybe not as green as our Phibian Phriend, but green nonetheless!)

I too have a spare #2 CF action, firing pin same as yours, with no clue as to what cartridge it fired originally. (It came with a .40-70 barrel on it, of all things.) Your project gave me an idea - barrel it with a .357 dimensioned unit and chamber it with a .38 Special reamer, but stopped well short of full depth so no dim bulbs would ever shoot .38Spl +P rounds in it. Call it a catchy name and stamp that on the barrel. (.38 Weeny comes to mind, haha!) Use standard .38 dies and molds to build low pressure fodder for it with shortened .38 brass.

I didn't realize CF-only #2's were rare. Thanks for the tutorial.

Since the original #2 in .38 Long can almost always accept .38 Special cartridges I wouldn't worry about what some dimwit might do. They could do so with any #2 in .38 long. But with the much larger bores these old .38 Longs have a good deal of the chamber pressure will escape past the small .357" bullets anyway, so they might survive their stupidity.

[marlinman93]

"The only place people can buy these heeled bullets today is Bear Creek Supply, and they offer just one bullet type in a 140 gr."

Quote from above.

Have you had good luck with these? So far I haven't, but would like to know others' experiences because I have a lot of them.
And yes, Old West is a very good resource for sure.

I've never bought .38 heeled bullets from anyone since I have molds for the heeled .38 already, and cast my own.

[marlinman93]

I ran around to a couple hardware stores yesterday to find an 8" long 5/16" bolt to make my through bolt from. Found them at store #2 and bought a few so I'll have spares. I turned the hex heads round, and then beveled the backside of the head to fit the stock bushing's shape. Cut 1/4" off the length, and using my Fordam and a cutoff wheel I made the large screw slot in the head.
Turned out a couple firing pins from drill rod; one for this block, and a spare for future. I mark the cut for the firing pin screw and just hand file that with a rat tail file as it's as quick and easy as any other method.
So it's 100% done now, and if this cold-windy weather lets up I'll give it a try at the range. In the meantime I'll cast up some more heeled bullets, and slug the bore to see if I need to size them down for this barrel.

[Green Frog]

I’m sitting on the lily pad holding my frog breath in anticipation! I love it when any Franken-Gun comes back to life, especially if the stitches aren’t too visible and the bolt I the neck is inconspicuous. :mrgreen:

As for the CF-only #2 actions, please refresh my memory… weren’t Ballard rifles made in 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 on the #2 action, or were they more often on the #4 (or other) action? There should actually be a fair number of those out there, IMHO.

Froggie

[P Flados]

Your project gave me an idea - barrel it with a .357 dimensioned unit and chamber it with a .38 Special reamer, but stopped well short of full depth so no dim bulbs would ever shoot .38Spl +P rounds in it.


FYI, Out of curiosity, I ran some quick numbers.

The breech thrust on a 44-40 at the rated 16,000 psi is going to be around 2,300 lbs.

The breech thrust on a 38 Sp +P at the rated 18,500 psi is going to be around 1,860 lbs.

It would take a chamber pressure of 23,000 psi for a 38 Sp reloaded round to approach the breech thrust of a 44-40.

If a breech face is too soft, a very high pressure round can eventually peen over some material at the firing pin hole. However even mild steels have a yield strength way more than the 18,500 psi of a 38 Sp +P.

If you are using a modern 0.357" blank, it should be made of a good heat treated steel. The actual barrel should handle 357 magnum type pressures as far as hoop stress.

[dtknowles]

I'm green with envy, Vall. (Maybe not as green as our Phibian Phriend, but green nonetheless!)

I too have a spare #2 CF action, firing pin same as yours, with no clue as to what cartridge it fired originally. (It came with a .40-70 barrel on it, of all things.) Your project gave me an idea - barrel it with a .357 dimensioned unit and chamber it with a .38 Special reamer, but stopped well short of full depth so no dim bulbs would ever shoot .38Spl +P rounds in it. Call it a catchy name and stamp that on the barrel. (.38 Weeny comes to mind, haha!) Use standard .38 dies and molds to build low pressure fodder for it with shortened .38 brass.

I didn't realize CF-only #2's were rare. Thanks for the tutorial.

Why not chamber to 38 S&W?

[gnoahhh]

Thanks, fellas. Talked a buddy into selling me a .357 barrel blank this evening. We'll see how this ends up.

[marlinman93]

I’m sitting on the lily pad holding my frog breath in anticipation! I love it when any Franken-Gun comes back to life, especially if the stitches aren’t too visible and the bolt I the neck is inconspicuous. :mrgreen:

As for the CF-only #2 actions, please refresh my memory… weren’t Ballard rifles made in 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 on the #2 action, or were they more often on the #4 (or other) action? There should actually be a fair number of those out there, IMHO.

Froggie

Charlie, I've never seen or heard of a Ballard #2 in.38-40, and always wondered why not? I have owned them in .44-40, .44 Long, and .32-20 with CF only firing pins. And of course almost every set trigger #2 I've owned was CF only firing pin, but I did see one DST block on a .32 Long that was CF/RF firing pin system.

[marlinman93]

FYI, Out of curiosity, I ran some quick numbers.

The breech thrust on a 44-40 at the rated 16,000 psi is going to be around 2,300 lbs.

The breech thrust on a 38 Sp +P at the rated 18,500 psi is going to be around 1,860 lbs.

It would take a chamber pressure of 23,000 psi for a 38 Sp reloaded round to approach the breech thrust of a 44-40.

If a breech face is too soft, a very high pressure round can eventually peen over some material at the firing pin hole. However even mild steels have a yield strength way more than the 18,500 psi of a 38 Sp +P.

If you are using a modern 0.357" blank, it should be made of a good heat treated steel. The actual barrel should handle 357 magnum type pressures as far as hoop stress.

Ballard breech blocks are the same for a cast #2 action, or any of their forged actions, except for the reversible firing pin setup. So a cast action Ballard has the same strength breech block regardless of which model Ballard action it's on. And all Ballard breech blocks are extremely hard! A file will skate right off the breech face and barely leave a tiny scratch, so it takes a stone, or polisher to remove any metal from the breech face of a Ballard block.

[GARD72977]

You have excellent taste in rifles. I'm always envious.

[pull the trigger]

Great writeup as usual. You always describe all your work as tho it is as easy as eating pie. Beautiful rifle

[marlinman93]

Great writeup as usual. You always describe all your work as tho it is as easy as eating pie. Beautiful rifle

In this rifle's case it truly was that easy!! Anyone with a barrel vise, and an action wrench could easily have put this one together. It just wanted to all be together, which is a rare circumstance for Ballard rifles.
I'm fighting my Darr Rolling Block currently, and thought since it's an existing barreled rifle things would be easy! But seems some "gunsmith" didn't properly chamber it, which is giving me fits currently.