Military bolt action rifles w/reputation for accuracy

[Dutchman]

The days of widely available bolt action military rifles are long gone but the rifles are still out there and available.... though not ~cheap~ like they were in the 60s or even the 80s and 90s.

I haven't owned every kind of bolt action rifle there is but I've owned more than a few and some are better shooters than others. Some rifles are singular in their capability and some are collectively superior. This is my short list of upper end rifles that deliver superior accuracy with cast bullets. All these rifles below deliver exceptional accuracy with cast bullets. Feel free to share your military bolt rifles that deliver exceptional accuracy with cast bullets. I have many more rifles than just these below but none of them will out shoot these rifles.

Swedish m/1896 Mauser. Not all Swedes will deliver superior accuracy. Generally the better condition barrels will provide the best accuracy. I shoot .266" and .268" diameter from 140 gr to 150 gr. Five shots into one hole is a very good day. But you must learn to inspect the bore with due diligence. With j-type projectiles don't waste your time with anything other than IMR4831 and Reloder22. The Swede loves slow powders with j-type bullets. With cast bullets Unique & 2400 are my favorites.

https://images15.fotki.com/v1670/photos/2/28344/157842/rifle2-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/rifle2.html)

Swiss Schmidt-Rubin 1896/11 & 1911 and Swiss K31. These rifles have excellent quality barrels but IMO they fall second to the Swedes in accuracy potential and delivered. But they are beautifully made rifles and wonderful shooters but if you're going to shoot a match pick the Swede m/96.

https://images46.fotki.com/v297/photos/2/28344/157842/yr24-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/yr24.html)

Argentine m/1891 Mauser rifles 7.65x53. The 1891 can have barrels with SJG stamped on the side of the barrel shank which is actually SIG for Swiss Industrial Company. Yep, some of these have Swiss barrels and those Swiss barrels deliver superior accuracy to include even bettering the m/1909 Argentine rifles made by DWM in Germany.

https://images46.fotki.com/v625/photos/2/28344/157842/ArgentineMauser1891-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/argentine_mauser_1891.html)

Finland m/1891 & m/39 with "B" barrels. Stamped on the barrel shank these barrels are said to be Belgian-made. All are dated 1942 but it is said they were rebuilds from post-WW2 and put into storage. These B-barrels are superior in every way to a standard Russian-made or Finn barrel. These are five shots into one hole shooters.

https://images15.fotki.com/v1664/photos/2/28344/157842/yr31-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/yr31.html)
https://images34.fotki.com/v1426/photos/2/28344/157842/yr30-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/yr30.html)

[john.k]

All the full wood rifles can have poor accuracy from warped wood forcing the front part of the barrel over ....Ideally ,there should be a 5-7lb contact under the forward part of the wood,and no side contact......metal bands should be free of the barrel ............quite often this is hard to organize without wrecking the collector value.......Incidentally ,this is why the Ross Mk III had lightweight sheet steel band and forend cap.....too light as it turned out for bayonet attachment......but ideal for superior accuracy.

[405grain]

Dutchman: You're not kidding about the accuracy of a 6.5x55 Swedish. I built a sporter using an M38 Turkish action with a 6.5x55 barrel and the accuracy surprises me. Shooting Lyman # 266673 bullets, sized .266", with a charge of 2400 that gets around 1500fps, these will shoot tiny little groups at 50 yards all day long. The Swedish cartridge shoots so well that I'm planing on building a second 6.5x55 on a 1895 Chilean action to use as a hunting gun.

Your choice of the 1891 Argy doesn't surprise me either. I put a new/old stock 1909 barrel on a 1908 Brazilian Mauser. Shooting 215 grain #311284, powder coated and sized to .3125", the first five shots I made while sighting in with it at 50 yds all went into a 3/4" group. To see if that was just luck, I aimed for a second target and put another 10 consecutive bullets into another 3/4" group. The 7.65x53 can be a really accurate round, and it likes those longer barrels.

[Uncle Grinch]

I love the accuracy of my Swede and 91 Argentine. They are incredibly more accurate than my ability. My Finn M39 is a close third, but I would like to offer a fair warning if you elect to disassembly your M39. Finns have a number of strategically placed shims under various parts of the action and barrel. Take note of them and be aware of their location.

[racepres]

It is all about the Barrel.... Not the Action...usually

[Gewehr-Guy]

Please don't forget the 03a3's, one of my best shooters is a recovered drill rifle, with a new two groove barrel. They are the majority of the rifles used in our CBA matches, probably because of the sights. I do have a beautiful Swedish 96, but I am ashamed to say I have never fired it with cast bullets. I need to go back through some of Dutchman's old threads, and take it to a couple matches next summer.

[Streetwalker]

Dutchman has hit the nail on the head with his powder selections..Unique and 2400. With these two powders alone, I have been able to wring out match grade accuracy out of my Swede 96's, Swiss K31's. Springfield 03A3 and my #4 Lee-Enfields. Great bores, well cast and fitted bullets and good loading techniques will deliver amazing results on the target with those old war horses.

[Ajohns]

308073

I'm new to the game on military, but had a ball with this full length 1896 Steyr.
6.5x53r at 50 yds and will do all day it seems. Plan on much more this summer, get loads ready this winter.

[schutzen-jager]

three come to my mind, 1906 Springfield Armory model 1903, 08/34 3006 Brazilian Itjuba Mauser + my Spanish FR8 7.62 nato - all shoot better than i can hold - all with cast bullets -

[higgins]

My 03A3 2-groove does very well with 2400 and either the 311041 or the Lee 312-155 gr bullet, both with 50/50 grease lube. The few small pits in the bore don't seem to matter. I didn't know they were there until I got a borescope because the bore shines and they're not visible looking from the breech end, however, they appeared to have mostly filled with lead so weren't much of a pit anymore.

[M1fuzz]

My best shooters are 3 of the 4 Dutchman mentioned in reverse order. My best shooter hands
down is my 1941 Sako M39. Second place is my 1924(iirc) Swiss K,not G, 11. Third, and not by much is my Swede M96.

[john.k]

The 6.5x 55 cartridge was for many years the Olympic 300 metre cartridge of choice.......probably only the Russians using somthing different.

[JSnover]

It is all about the Barrel.... Not the Action...usually

Could be. The accuracy requirement for infantry rifles (from the major combatants) was 3 MOA, which is a reasonable, practical standard but no one brags about a 3" group. Most could shoot better than that (at least when they were new) but the armories weren't crafting Olympic quality rifles or precious family heirlooms; they were cranking out tools for soldiers. While some were clearly better than others, the more accurate specimens were fitted with optics and issued to snipers.

[Larry Gibson]

Over many years shooting many different models, makes and designs of military bolt action rifles I have found; given equal condition of bedding and bore all of them were pretty much as accurate as any IF the bullets (not to be confused with the cartridge) were of equal quality.

At least 80% if not 90% of the "accuracy" capability is based on the quality, particularly the balance, of the bullet. Too many times we get lost in the minutia of the other 10/- %.

[beemer]

I have set down and read Dr. Mann's book. It is amazing what he learned especially considering the equipment he had and sometimes made. The hours he spent analyzing the data must have been unreal. You almost have to force yourself to read it but it finally got through my thick skull how important bullet balance is.

Bullet manufacture has improved greatly in the last several years and the solid bullets have really upped the game.

[35 Whelen]

Because of their reputations for accuracy, I bought a Swedish Mauser several years ago. It's accuracy wasn't really bad, but it certainly wasn't as good as any of my K-31's or even my 03A3's. I probably just got a bad egg.

I'd have to give top honors to the K-31. For awhile I shot one loaded with cast bullets in our local High Power matches ultimately attaining an Expert classification in a little under one year. It was far more accurate than I.

https://i.imgur.com/vXZD4xMl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4p6Z0Tll.jpg https://i.imgur.com/39CWAn3l.jpg https://i.imgur.com/ftXhxKFl.jpg

This particular target was from one of our matches and was fired prone rapid.

https://i.imgur.com/qkS5RtUl.jpg

The AR shooters ribbed me pretty good when I first showed up with a K-31, but that ended when I started beating some of them. :-D

But I must say, most every 03A3 I've fired has been just about as accurate as my K-31's.

I picked this poor looking Smith Corona up somewhere and as ugly as it was, it was a nice shooter-

https://i.imgur.com/LpVs0CDl.jpg

Spring before last I was lollygagging around town and dropped into an old pawn shop and spotted an 03A3 that someone had put in a sporter stock. After a bit of haggling I walked out with it, with my wallet $350 lighter. I loaded a few tried and true cast loads and was not disappointed-

https://i.imgur.com/YmS7agNl.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FVTNHeml.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vTMsPQKl.jpg

This thread makes me want to drag one out and do some shooting!

35W

[gnoahhh]

While I have had excellent luck with a few Swedish Mausers, my all time, and current, favorites are M1903 Springfields - from a pre-WWI service rifle to an 03A1 service rifle (and a couple in between), a 1930's 03A1 National Match, plus a Style T Target and an NRA Sporter. 03A3's have been good to me, but the '03 shades it - barrel quality being equal.

A few years ago I took Frank Elliot's advice and bought an NOE mold #309-169 Elco, a mold he designed. It's a spitzer design and I was leery of that, but he made the ogive "fuller" which helps to abrogate nose slumping in the bore - it reminds me of the old 180 Palma Match bullet. Still and all he warned me to limit velocity to no more than around 1800fps, and as long as I heed that advice it is a universally accurate bullet in all my Springfields. It is the bullet, in my Springfields, which commands the devotion of my remaining supply of SR-4759 powder. (Thankfully, the 15 pounds I have left should see me through.)

A couple out of the ordinary favorites:

NRA Sporter (please excuse the jacketed fodder, I was prepping for a hunting trip).
https://i.imgur.com/BPF078Il.jpg

Home-built USMC Sniper
https://i.imgur.com/fupSrQyl.jpg

Style T Target, re-barreled by John Dubiel circa 1936
https://i.imgur.com/pjshYIhl.jpg?2

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Really interesting thread, being a Milsurp enthusiast myself. Interesting that no one has said anything about the US M-1917 or P-14 Enfields, or for that matter Lee Enfields. Many No.4s shoot quite well. Some of the Turk M-38s shoot cast bullets very well.

308424 308425

DG

[steveu]

Is that bullet, 309-169 elco a flatbase or gc?

[gnoahhh]

Is that bullet, 309-169 elco a flatbase or gc?

Flat base with gas check.

[Bigslug]

Really interesting thread, being a Milsurp enthusiast myself. Interesting that no one has said anything about the US M-1917 or P-14 Enfields, or for that matter Lee Enfields. Many No.4s shoot quite well. Some of the Turk M-38s shoot cast bullets very well.

Count me in as a 1914/17 fan - to the point if I win the Powerball, I'll try to start up a factory for them. I just wish there was a better way to fairly compare all of them. As a whole, it's going to be hard to beat the Swedes, the Swiss, and maybe to a lesser degree, the Finns, because all three of those nations took their shooting very seriously and (aside from the Finns) didn't have the press of invading or invasion affecting their production speed or quality. Never mind the fact that most of their rifles weren't blown up by artillery, submerged in Belgian mud, or dragged across half a dozen Pacific islands. I was working in gun sales in the early 1990's after the Soviet Union fell apart and they unloaded all their milsurps out of storage. You could visibly tell from the receiver dates, build quality, and condition of the Mosin Nagants and Mausers which way the tide was flowing. A fun history lesson, but not one you can properly judge a design by - - unless you're gauging it just by the fact it still works after all that.

Conversely, the few "mothballed survivor" export Mausers I've run across (most memorably, a Persian one) are absolutely stunning, and my guess would be that they probably shoot as well as they look.

The question that is practically impossible to answer. . . .that we'd all like the answer to is: "Which was the best rifle when it was both built right and new?". The best 5-shot cast group I ever fired was from a friend's Finn M39 with either the 311299 or 314299 and (as I recall) 2400. Having pulled apart one owned by another friend, I can see why - amazing attention to detail on the inside of that stock. Considering that they chose to use the clunky Mosin Nagant action as the heart of those rifles, and Frankensteined them together out of captured parts around it, one tends to conclude that if a milsurp got built true to the blueprints, any of them can be made to deliver.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

There's a lot of truth to that, Mr. Bigslug. As to quality of manufacture, all of the early Mausers were masterpieces of craftsmanship. For example, the 1893/95 7x57mm Mausers used by the Boers. But, the same basic rifle as produced in Spain doesn't have the same reputation. Good, yes, but not quite as good as the ones made in Germany. There always has been, and likely always will be, rifles identical in appearance to thousands of others that shoot a bit better than the rest; but the odds of finding that particular one is more likely among certain models. I totally agree with your assessment of Mosin-Nagants, clunky, never my favorites, but the Finns made them shoot. I guess that if I could select just one, brand new, built right military rifle it would be a Springfield M1903. Maybe an 03-A3......:D But that would be because of the aperture sights and maybe better barrel. I like the looks of the '03 better, and the original sights are great for the range given time to tinker with them. Toss up.

DG

[HWooldridge]

I once owned a 6.5x55 M96 Mauser and still have a K31. Might be the individual rifles but my Swiss gun is more accurate than the Mauser was. Better stock trigger, too. It’s a fine shooter with the GP11 issue ammo.

[Alex_4x4]

[Conversation between a European and a Korean:]

European: "I don't like dogs."

Korean: "Yes? Or maybe you just don't know how to cook them?"

Mosin rifle for war, not for hunting or sport.

[john.k]

Ive had lots of milsurps from the days they were cheap .......anyhoo,without a doubt the most accurate Ive had is the P14/ M17 ,free floated and glass bedded ,will shoot under MOA all day.....of the makes ,Winchester is better than the other two by a small margin.

[beemer]

I have Enfields, Mosin Nagants, and Mausers. My favorite is the #4 Enfield, I have a couple that do shoot very well. A good deal of time has been spent tinkering with the bedding and I have found they shoot well with a floated barrel.

I don't think the #4 is as inherently accurate as a Swede or a K31. I had two K31's, one was very accurate and the other was jaw dropping accurate. I really didn't like them so down the road.

One of the biggest surprises I ever had was an old beat up WW1 98 with a pitted bore. It wasn't unusual to shoot groups at 100 yds you could cover with a quarter using WW2 ammo.

[Rapier]

A real surprise is an accurate M-99, ugly as a mud fence. Amazing just how accurate they can be. Of the ones I have owned, the only one I kept is a true story of the beauty and the beast. The Japanese were very particular in their rifle building prior to the war and during the early years of the war.

[richhodg66]

The days of widely available bolt action military rifles are long gone but the rifles are still out there and available.... though not ~cheap~ like they were in the 60s or even the 80s and 90s.

I haven't owned every kind of bolt action rifle there is but I've owned more than a few and some are better shooters than others. Some rifles are singular in their capability and some are collectively superior. This is my short list of upper end rifles that deliver superior accuracy with cast bullets. All these rifles below deliver exceptional accuracy with cast bullets. Feel free to share your military bolt rifles that deliver exceptional accuracy with cast bullets. I have many more rifles than just these below but none of them will out shoot these rifles.

Swedish m/1896 Mauser. Not all Swedes will deliver superior accuracy. Generally the better condition barrels will provide the best accuracy. I shoot .266" and .268" diameter from 140 gr to 150 gr. Five shots into one hole is a very good day. But you must learn to inspect the bore with due diligence. With j-type projectiles don't waste your time with anything other than IMR4831 and Reloder22. The Swede loves slow powders with j-type bullets. With cast bullets Unique & 2400 are my favorites.

https://images15.fotki.com/v1670/photos/2/28344/157842/rifle2-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/rifle2.html)

Swiss Schmidt-Rubin 1896/11 & 1911 and Swiss K31. These rifles have excellent quality barrels but IMO they fall second to the Swedes in accuracy potential and delivered. But they are beautifully made rifles and wonderful shooters but if you're going to shoot a match pick the Swede m/96.

https://images46.fotki.com/v297/photos/2/28344/157842/yr24-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/yr24.html)

Argentine m/1891 Mauser rifles 7.65x53. The 1891 can have barrels with SJG stamped on the side of the barrel shank which is actually SIG for Swiss Industrial Company. Yep, some of these have Swiss barrels and those Swiss barrels deliver superior accuracy to include even bettering the m/1909 Argentine rifles made by DWM in Germany.

https://images46.fotki.com/v625/photos/2/28344/157842/ArgentineMauser1891-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/argentine_mauser_1891.html)

Finland m/1891 & m/39 with "B" barrels. Stamped on the barrel shank these barrels are said to be Belgian-made. All are dated 1942 but it is said they were rebuilds from post-WW2 and put into storage. These B-barrels are superior in every way to a standard Russian-made or Finn barrel. These are five shots into one hole shooters.

https://images15.fotki.com/v1664/photos/2/28344/157842/yr31-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/yr31.html)
https://images34.fotki.com/v1426/photos/2/28344/157842/yr30-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/vintage_firearms/yr30.html)

I have one of these, looks identical, but instead of the "B" it has what appears to be a small circle with a triangle in it (?) Also a 1942 dated rifle with a similar serial number range. It has that same very long barrel with that same front sight and as you say, is a very good shooter.

I have never researched into Mosins (I know I should) but what might the slightly different marking mean? Thanks for posting this information.

[Dutchman]

I have one of these, looks identical, but instead of the "B" it has what appears to be a small circle with a triangle in it (?) Also a 1942 dated rifle with a similar serial number range. It has that same very long barrel with that same front sight and as you say, is a very good shooter.

I have never researched into Mosins (I know I should) but what might the slightly different marking mean? Thanks for posting this information.

Start here and keep reading. http://7.62x54r.net/

Dutch

[FullTang]

My K31 is probably the most inherently accurate gun I own, but I think I can shoot my Turkish Mauser better, if only because it's about 8 feet long and that crazy sight radius just allows for the greatest precision.

[Texas by God]

The most accurate military bolt rifles that I’ve fired have been two Swiss K31s, a 98 Springfield (Krag), an 03A3 2 groove Sporter, a 99 Arisaka Sporter with Remington 700 sights, a couple of 96 Swedish Mausers, a Sako barreled Mosin Nagant, and a Mitchell’s Yugo Mauser. With younger eyes, all of the above grouped less than 2”@100yards with hand loaded ammo. The K31s were using surplus ammo.
I’m not a competition shooter, just an old deer Hunter. All would do better with a better shot behind the buttplate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mark Daiute]

1898 Krag

[6string]

You guys have some very nice rifles.
When I was a kid, my family lived in Canada. This was before the 1980s change in US law that relaxed mil-surp imports. There was a ton of stuff in Canada that was very hard to find in the US at the time. $100 would give you a choice of a nice Swedish Mauser infantry rifle or carbine, or various pre1898 model Mausers. Of course, there were tons of Lee-Enfields.
My first one was a gift from my Dad when I was 11. My uncle bought it for $3.00 from an Army-Navy surplus store in Halifax. He was going to toss it in the trash, but my Dad was there to intervene. He brought it home in a box as his carry-on luggage! (That'll tell you how long ago that was!)
Anyhow, I used to shoot it in the basement with very light loads using .30 cal buckshot roundballs. Eventually got a Lee Loader for it. 50 yds with boolits cast from an Ideal Loverin mold were good into an inch or so for five shots.

[steveu]

Finn 28/30.

[LAGS]

I agree.
I have two MN 28/30's
I did sporterize one of them 30 years ago.
It is one of my finest shooting rifles.

[dogmower]

Swedish mauser, 1903a3, 1903, 1917 enfield, swiss k31, enfield no.4 mkI, argentine mauser in 7.65 mauser, jap 99, k98k, steyr m95 in that order (most to least accurate)

[schutzen-jager]

1/2 inch off rest at 50yds. with cheap bulk ammo - Remington 513 trainer -

[303Guy]

This past weekend I took my never before fired two-groof Longbranch #4 to the range. This rifle is mint. Well, I was aware of being unsteady on the first shot but confident I squeezed of the second two on target. One of the holes has two shots through it. Bear in mind that the first shot was also out of a clean bore. That was only 25m so not benchrest accuracy and besides, accuracy is determined by how a rifle shoots ten shots, allowing the barrel to cool between shots. The rifle also shot hand loads into a tight group so I would say this rifle will be a MOA shooter.

https://i.postimg.cc/QC6PFLRR/2023-01-15-HXP-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

But Lee Enfields do not have a reputation for accuracy.

Maybe this is why.
https://i.postimg.cc/85XBW1zB/1943-180gr-PPU-BTSP-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5YvCWWv6)

Oops!

But in fairness, it did shoot Greek surplus reasonably and I did get it to shoot hand loads reasonably too. Not stelar, but serviceable.

[Eddie1971]

I think Swiss IG1911 is more accurate than a K31. That being said I just got an unfired M91 B Barrel I need to load for.

[nicholst55]

This past weekend I took my never before fired two-groof Longbranch #4 to the range. This rifle is mint. Well, I was aware of being unsteady on the first shot but confident I squeezed of the second two on target. One of the holes has two shots through it. Bear in mind that the first shot was also out of a clean bore. That was only 25m so not benchrest accuracy and besides, accuracy is determined by how a rifle shoots ten shots, allowing the barrel to cool between shots. The rifle also shot hand loads into a tight group so I would say this rifle will be a MOA shooter.

https://i.postimg.cc/QC6PFLRR/2023-01-15-HXP-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

But Lee Enfields do not have a reputation for accuracy.

Maybe this is why.
https://i.postimg.cc/85XBW1zB/1943-180gr-PPU-BTSP-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5YvCWWv6)

Oops!

But in fairness, it did shoot Greek surplus reasonably and I did get it to shoot hand loads reasonably too. Not stelar, but serviceable.

I briefly owned a No.4 MK 1 Lee Enfield that printed groups like your second target. It went away pretty quickly.

[35 Whelen]

This past weekend I took my never before fired two-groof Longbranch #4 to the range. This rifle is mint. Well, I was aware of being unsteady on the first shot but confident I squeezed of the second two on target. One of the holes has two shots through it. Bear in mind that the first shot was also out of a clean bore. That was only 25m so not benchrest accuracy and besides, accuracy is determined by how a rifle shoots ten shots, allowing the barrel to cool between shots. The rifle also shot hand loads into a tight group so I would say this rifle will be a MOA shooter.

https://i.postimg.cc/QC6PFLRR/2023-01-15-HXP-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

But Lee Enfields do not have a reputation for accuracy.

Maybe this is why.
https://i.postimg.cc/85XBW1zB/1943-180gr-PPU-BTSP-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5YvCWWv6)

Oops!

But in fairness, it did shoot Greek surplus reasonably and I did get it to shoot hand loads reasonably too. Not stelar, but serviceable.

So many Enfields have enormous groove diameters. I owned a couple of them years ago with this issue and leading and tumbling bullets were a problem. At the time I was using (now discontinued) SR4759 and the solution for me was a filler between the powder and the bullet, I used PSB or Precision Shot Buffer. As per instructions I found here I added the weight of the buffer to the weight of the bullet and reduced the powder charge accordingly.

I cannot explain how or why the buffer solved the problems, but it did. You might want to do some research here regarding the .303, Enfields and fillers.

35W

[john.k]

In the days of service 303 rifle shooting there was no preference for either 2 or 5 groove barrels .........as kids we used to salvage spent bullets for scrap at the military range ,and there were plenty of two groove bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

Over the years I've dealt with numerous 2 groove SMLE's that would shoot Mk VII ammunition very well nor well fitting cat bullets much above. Lots of key holes with the Mk VII also. What I found was the bores were quite over size, some pin gauged at .312 - .314. The twos "grooves" were very narrow (totally unlike the wide grooves in 2 groove M1903A3 barrels) and very shallow, usually only .002+/- deep. Never could get any of those to shoot worth a hoot and got to the point I wouldn't even mess with them. Now a good 5 groove SMLE or like my C1950 Mk4 NoII are a much different story.

[robertbank]

I don't get to the range as often as I should with #4 Longbranch. I installed a 4x scope on it. At 100 yards I have shot 3 rounds touching with it. With irons that came with it I am afraid just hitting paper is marked as success. I just might be my 78 year old eyes. With the right optics I am quite certain most of the old girls will shoot with the right combination of bullet and powder.

Alas the day of the $10.00 Longbranch rifles is long gone. I suspect up here in Canada more moose have fallen to this rifle than any other. I think it can be said that worldwide the old Enfields be they #3 or #4 have taken more meat for consumption than any other rifle. It has also helped thin the people herd when the need occurred as well.

Take Care

Bob

[beemer]

I have two scoped #4's, a 1943 LB two groove and 1949 Faz five groove that was unissued. I have shot enough 5 shot groups around 1 1/2 inches at 100 yds with both for it to be an accident. The two groove even has a little bit of heat checking in the throat, probably from cordite. As far as accuracy with jacketed bullets I can't tell the difference. With cast the Faz is much better. I have spent a good bit of time tinkering with the bedding on both. Both have full floated barrels.

I gave $85 for the LB and $140 for the Faz, it's been a while.

Dave

[Chena]

Forty years ago, when my eyes were still pretty sharp, I squeezed good hunting accuracy from a badly sporterized 98 Krag with a rough pitted bore. As I recall it liked 150 grain Sierra J-words and a slightly loosened barrel band.

[alamogunr]

Very interesting thread. I started my milsurp journey back in 2004 with a K31. I wish I had started back in the '60's. I remember the ads back then. The only problem I remember was that they were selling volume with no attention to condition.

At present my "collection" consists of 20 rifles. The last is a Japanese Arisaka type 99 that I took delivery of last week. Sad to admit that my shooting has not kept up with my accumulation. I've got dies and components and molds to take advantage of all of them but just haven't done it.

Most of my aquisitions have been with my younger son in mind. He is a political science/history professor and appreciates these things more than the older son. I doubt that he will ever shoot them. The only one he has now is a Mosin-Nagant that he shot with some corrosive ammo without knowing that it needed to be completely cleaned. My fault for not warning him. Now it is a wall hanger.

[300leonidas]

I have a "sporterized" 30/40 Krag that I enjoy shooting.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a load that shoots better than about 4 MOA. I've got some ideas but am curious if anyone else has had success with Cast Loads for a 30/40.

310240

310241

[405grain]

300leonidas: The 30-40 Krag is a versatile cartridge that has been shown to work really well with lots of cast loads. Tell us what bullet/powder combinations you've been shooting and then people can make more informed assessments about what might work better with your rifle.

[300leonidas]

Tell us what bullet/powder combinations you've been shooting and then people can make more informed assessments about what might work better with your rifle.

I have been shooting an assortment of 150-200gr Lee & Lyman Cast bullets sized to .309. I've tried shooting powder coated versions and plain cast ones with gas checks.

I've mostly been using H4895 and I4895 and I4831 recently. The I4831 appears to be a little more promising. Have also tried about 7gr of Red Dot. I've been shooting for velocities in the 1700-2100fps.
range.

28gr of H4895 with a 180gr Cast Bullet (Lyman #2 alloy w/gas check) would deliver an average velocity of 1725fps and shoot about 5MOA.

40gr. I4831 pushing a 215gr Cast bullet (Lyman #2 Alloy w/gas check) bullet at about 2200fps (I think - have not Chronographed this one) has shot about 3MOA.

I've been sizing everything @ .309 but after making a chamber cast I am going to size @ .311 and shoot a Lee 200gr with enough I4831 to get me in the 2000-2200 fps range. Hoping this will be a decent load. To achieve .311 I'm going to powder coat them and probably no gas checks.

Have also loaded several different jacketed bullet types @ normal velocities (~2600fps) using mostly I4895 and achieve similar accuracy results.

That's a pretty basic summary. Thanks!

[beemer]

I don't try to get to the 2000 fps range, I'm happy with around 1700-1800 fps. I think increasing the dia. to .311 will probably help, maybe larger if it will chamber freely. Your lead bullet needs to seal the bore to prevent gas cutting. Measure the neck of your fired cases, you don't want your loaded rounds to be any larger than that. The neck needs to be able to expand enough to release the bullet without binding.

Some rifles do better with certain bullets but proper fit is most important, if it doesn't fit the bore it's just not going to shoot accurately.

That rifle looks like something I would like to play with.

Dave

[300leonidas]

I don't try to get to the 2000 fps range, I'm happy with around 1700-1800 fps.
Dave

I'm not too concerned about velocities either. Would rather find an accurate sweet spot.


The neck needs to be able to expand enough to release the bullet without binding.
Dave

I think Outpost75's Recommendation here (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?355708-Cast-bullet-size&p=4308233&viewfull=1#post4308233) is good advice. As he says, "The loaded cartridge neck diameter must not be larger than 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point"

[Chena]

300leonidas, I suggest you look at possible bedding issues, using jacketed bullet loads while testing any adjustments. For a start you might try removing the hand guard and testing at several levels of tension on the barrel band. Also, if I recall correctly Krags are known to have a pretty wide range of bore dimensions, so sizing down to .309 may not work. Great looking practical rifle by the way.

[MOC031]

Lee Enfield rifles spent decades cleaning up internationally against all comers. Mostly Commonwealth nations of course, but they weren't shy about going out to compete outside of that Commonwealth arena. The Ross rifle is about the only thing that dominated it. Few of these rifles were surplus rifles that had spent years in the hands of troops in wars. Most were either selected from all the rifles available in the military armory/club house, or stocked up by knowledgeable gun plumbers who knew what they were doing while fine tuning the draws in the stock. I doubt anyone, from anywhere, competing was just handed a random rifle from those in the armory to go compete with.

I started my one-and-only milsurp journey after foolishly accepting a trade offer back in the early 1980's for my .308 Win chambered Long Branch DCRA No. 4 Mk.1 (for, of all things, my first AR15). That DCRA rifle, like the other DCRA conversions of those Long Branch's, when using DCRA issued military ball ammo, would shoot with any military bolt action over the course. I cry a small tear when I look at what those DCRA conversions sell for now, 30+ years later. And sell probably to collectors - not serious shooters wanting to challenge themselves at the range. The days of inexpensive DCRA conversions (and the later inexpensive high quality Greek HXP ball ammunition) are long gone.

Some experimenting years later was an education, as I tried to replace it with a similarly accurate factory Mk 4 No.1 from what I saw being offered for sale: chamber and bore/groove variations (and why), bedding, headspace and the nonexistent headspace issue, etc.

Ultimately, I ended up with my one and only milsurp rifle, a 1950 Long Branch from a bunch found in war stores in Belgium, never issued, the last of the best. With a no-gunsmithing scope mount and a Leupold 24x scope in place, it will group ten shots of select Greek HXP ball ammo into just over 4" at 300 yards off the bench. Careful handloading with Sierra and Hornady 174 gr. FMJs will do better. I had to buy a crate of the rifles and test each of them to find that one among the herd, but that is what it will do. It is untouched otherwise. I doubt I will ever take the action and rifle out of the wood again, least I disturb the bedding within the draws of the stock as it came from the Long Branch factory.

The bottom line is that, while your average No. 4 Mk. 1 is probably behind other makes and models of military rifles when it comes to buying an issued one at a show or at a store, the No. 4 Mk 1 when you got one selected by a military gun plumber and stocked up (or stocked up by the DCRA or a private firm like Fulton's in England) has more grouping ability at long range than the vast majority of shooters that would be behind the aperture sights. And it will probably shoot over the course equally well with other military rifles. Meanwhile, among the rest of the other No. 4 Mk1 rifles out there that have never been altered in any way, there are others that will provide exceptional accuracy much like mine does. But when buying surplus rifles of unknown potential, unlike what I did, you really don't know what you're going to get, and what/if anything you might have to do if you want the best accuracy.

One advantage that Lee Enfield owners that cast bullets for their rifles have is that chamber/lead/bore/groove variations in dimension are easily addressed. Simply use a mould and size to produce bullets that properly fit their rifle's dimensions to produce the best accuracy. Even a badly used/abused war horse that saw years of war before being sold off into civilian ownership can be helped by doing that.

For the jacketed-only crowd, fitting jacketed bullets to get best accuracy out of a well worn old veteran of years of war is a much greater challenge. The last time I addressed that was to help out an old guy (i.e. older than me in my late 60's) who had finally put a scope on his bubba'd Lee Enfield after he finally admitted he couldn't see the iron sights well enough for his elk/moose hunting purposes. Some repeated dipping of the hunting bullets in an industrial molybdenum sulfate solution and allowing the coatings to dry got the shank dimensions of the bullets to where the accuracy improved considerably. I considered powder coating as faster and easier, but I don't know enough about metallurgy to have any idea of what the baking process would do to either the copper jacket or the lead core.

[beemer]

I have one of the LB 1950 #4 rifles. It is in great condition and a beautiful rifle with a matching walnut stock set. I have not shot it a lot but it does shoot well and one of my favorites. I bought a tin of Greek HXP back when, it is good brass too.

I agree that Enfields can be a mixed bag as far as accuracy but most with a decent bore can be helped. One rifle, a #1 I bought was awful, after a lot of reading, scratching, scrapping and 200 rounds it shot extremely well. It shot so well that I had a scope put on it. My brother traded me out of it and it was his deer rifle for a good many years.

I have powder coated some .308 bullets for my Mosin just to try but haven't shot them yet. I really don't think it will help as the rifle shoots hand loads with .308 and .311 about equal, as in 3"-3 1/2" groups on a good day. I need to try some in a #4 and see if it helps. I did try a few rounds of jacketed .308 paper patched to .314 in a #4, it grouped well but it was only 5 rounds.

Dave

[303Guy]

I was playing with one of my SMLE's with a bullet catcher and discovered that the bullets were canting in the bore. I di get a long and fat two-diameter cast boolit to go down the bore straight. So this issue could be something else that can go wrong in a Lee Enfield. Or with any rifle for that matter.

[truckjohn]

Many of those old military rifles were badly worn when stuffed into storage after WWII. It is interesting to note how many No1mkIII Enfields saw service in both WWI and WWII. Same for Mosins, just add the Revolution and several purges.

Most countries had marksmanship programs. They all generally worked over rifles for competition purposes. The hard part is that setting a rifle up for "Battle" vs "Competition shooting" shows they are two different beasts.

For example, the Russians specially bedded their Sniper version Mosins. Their triggers got worked, and they got special/tight barrels. They knew how to make accurate rifles when they needed to. The thing is, like everybody else, gilt edged accuracy isn't the #1 problem in war. Barrels that don't blow up when stuffed with mud or snow is probably more important. "Conscript model" 91/30's have barrels that mic 0.314"-0.319" in the grooves. Sniper models mic 0.312"-0.313". You see that with war time Enfields as well. Competition tuned barrels came in tight. Conscript model barrels came in loose.

Action "tightness" is another thing. Those old Mausers, Enfields, and Mosins have a lot of room to mush mud and sand out of the way. Swiss rifles will jam up tighter than a bank vault if you get grass seeds inside them. Ask me how I know. ;)

Last is the effects of arsenal storage and make-work projects over the years. Many properly fitted rifles were disassembled and then reassembled slipshod to satisfy someone's make work budget.
Find a Mosin that was not arsenal refurbed, and they are often pretty good. The arsenal refurbed ones jam and misfeed and aren't sighted in... They were just yanked apart, all the parts were dumped in bins. They were "cleaned" and reassembled without function testing, adjusting, or replacing any of the stock shims. And surprise, they are cranky.

[john.k]

Well ,there s a funny thing...........once upon a time ,people bought FTR or unused milsurps ,and called it good.......people had common sense in those days.......fifty years later people are buying the most appalling junk stored in rubbish tips in third world holes .........common sense completely absent..........and ,even worse ,burden everyone else with their stupidity.

[Ray1946]

I honestly think it would be hard to beat the accuracy of a 96/11 or regular 1911 Schmidt-Rubin. I fired one for several years in local hundred yard High-Power matches and earned my "Expert" classification easily..................