Cutting Down 12GA 2-3/4 Hulls To Make Mini Trap Loads

[Liberty1776]

After shooting the crimp out of my Winchester AA and Remington STS hulls, (trap and SASS) I want to try cutting the crimp off and use them as short shotgun shells, or "minis."

The problem is finding reliable load data for Trap Shooting in an over/under or for SASS Cowboy Action in a side-by-side, if that's even a thing. Number 7-1/2 or 8 shot, 7/8 or 1 ounce, 1200 fps.

To cut the hulls down, the Ballistic Products Spin-N-Trim seems to work well.
https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Spin-N-Trim-Hull-Trimmer-12ga-NEW-/productinfo/1172002/

I have a roll crimp tool and a drill press already.

Paper overshot cards can be punched out with a 3/4" hole punch...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/261912994020

...or 3/4" Bingo Markers can be employed
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HHC1RB9/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AVM67MWFK5AYL&psc=1

This gentleman has a lot to say on the subject, but he's mostly into buckshot loads, not trap shooting or SASS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2crASRXJKWs

I have Red Dot, Clays, Unique, Titegroup and other powders.

This may be silly, but here's the question:

What wad, or gas seal; and what powder loads work for Mini Trap shells? Or where does such info reside?

I await your collective wisdom.

[DDriller]

Use the same powder charge as your regular loads. Stack height is all the changes. I use the Flex Seal or X-12 gas seals from ballistic products then fiber wads to adjust shot column.

[stubshaft]

+1 - You only removed the crimp portion of the shell the stack height will remain the same.

[trapper9260]

This all I made up myself for short shells, use at your own risk . All lead shot . Note can replace Alcan wad with BPI. I had them on hand at the time then got the BPI wads from BPI . all over shot cards I cut myself with a gasket hole cutter that I got from Snap On at the time, 1/8" cork sheet is how I get it and cut my own size out that is from farm fleet store use for gaskets.

12ga 2 1/8" fold crimp
Hull Plastic base hulls
Lead shot 5/8 oz
powder Red Dot 10gr
Wad BPI TPS 35mm 12 ga preslit 1 1/2" long
cut 1/4 " off wad .
Put powder ,then load wad then (1) 1/2" cut cork 1/8" thick , then (1) 9 /16" cut cork 1/8" thick , then load shot ,add (1) 9/16" overshot card and then fold crimp. I use cracker box to cut my cards and I get the 1/8" cork from the farm fleet store that is used to make gaskets.

12ga 1 3/4" fold crimp
use plastic base wad hulls
Wad Alcan can use BPI wads also in the last data. cut off the top of the wad to have total 7/8" long
Powder Red dot 9gr
shot 5/8 oz I use 7 1/2 size shot.

Load powder then 3/4" card then wad , shot , 20ga card them fold crimp . might like to use a heat gun to make it easy to fold crimp. I use the 6 point starter .



12 ga 1 3/4" Roll Crimp
Rem plastic base hulls
Shot 5/8 oz 7 1/2 shot
Powder Red dot 10gr
wad Alcan cut 1/8" off to shorten add (2) 20ga cork 1/8" thick
then add shot and then 12ga (3/4") overshot card
Roll Crimp
Need to adjust cards & wads for hulls


12 ga 2" Roll Crimp
Win compression formed AA type shells or plastic base hulls
Shot 7/8 oz
Powder International 16 gr
Was Alcan 1 1/8oz and (8) 20ca cover shot cards and then add shot and over shot card. then roll crimp


12 ga 2 1/2" Roll crimp
Rem plastic base wad only (unibody)
1 1/8 oz shot
Powder Red dot 18.5 grs
Wad Win WAA 12
use 12 ga over shot card then roll crimp



12 ga 2 1/8" fold crimp Buck shot
Hull Plastic base
Bock Shot 00 buck shot rolled (6)
Powder Red Dot 11 grs
Wad BPI TPS 35 mm 12 ga preslit 1 1/2" long cut 1/4" off the wad top,
Load powder then add wad , then put 1/2" cut round 1/8" cork then stack (6) 00Buck shot ,(2) per a layer then add buffer and then add (1) 9/16" overshot card over load then fold crimp.

[beemer]

I can't add much after Trapper's post, he's got it covered. But I will say this, If you understand the old way of loading shells by adjusting the stack height it changes things.

A lot of my loading involves lower power loads that are fun to shoot and do lot of what I need done anyway. I've recently been playing with a 12 ga. single barrel I picked up, haven't had one in many years. Full power loads are not fun at all so I've been loading fun stuff. That's where the stack height really comes into play, it gives you a lot of options.

I've been doing this for a long time with a 410. I use more popper loads for creepy critters than anything else. Just use 5 grs. Unique, 4 punched out card wads, 80 grs. of 9 or 10 shot, and glue in the overshot cart.

Dave

[trapper9260]

For the fold crimps if that will not work for who wants to use what I posted , you can adjust the hulls to roll crimp. I came up with what I did ,because of the hulls that start to split on the mouth and wanted more use out of them or you can put a overshot card on before you crimp the shell , also note that some shotguns will not feed short shells. If you use them in a pump. The 1873 lever will work ,and forgot what pump will work, try at your own risk.

[country gent]

A simple way to cut hulls down would be a tube bored so they just slide in to the rim at the desired length from the front of the rim. A fine jewelers saw mini cut off saw or sharp knife can be used/ Even better would be to make it long by 3/4" and bore it with a counter sink at rim dia and ream taper pin hole so when the hull is in the taper pin locks it in place.

The crimp is not a part of shell length so just removing the crimp shouldnt change a lot

[Cap'n Morgan]

The Spin-N-Trim works well, but you'll probably have to replace the rivet with a screw and locknut to hold the two halves tight together
and keeping the cutting edge from wandering.

Notice that if you reduce the stack height, you MUST reduce the powder load, or the pressure will spike dramatically.

[Liberty1776]

You guys never disappoint. Thanks.

[DDriller]

You can make a shell cutter yourself from 3/4" pvc conduit. Cut it to the length you want you shells and cut with a box knife.

[longbow]

What Cap'n Morgan said!

If you remove a cushion leg wad and replace with a shorter, stiffer wad column without reducing powder charge and/or payload, pressure can rise due to less volume at ignition... no crush!

Best to use short hull pressure tested recipes:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Brochure-Loading-Shortened-Hulls/productinfo/00BSHORT/

Longbow

[Liberty1776]

What Cap'n Morgan said!

If you remove a cushion leg wad and replace with a shorter, stiffer wad column without reducing powder charge and/or payload, pressure can rise due to less volume at ignition... no crush!

Best to use short hull pressure tested recipes:

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Brochure-Loading-Shortened-Hulls/productinfo/00BSHORT/

Longbow

I purchased and downloaded that Ballistic Products brochure, but it doesn't cover Win AA or Rem STS hulls -- Fioccchi and Cheddite only.

It does have one recipe that looks right for me, though:

308124

If you can't view the picture, it's:
- a Fiocchi hull cut to 2-1/2"
- a SSW Ballistic Products short wad
- an 18FW20 Ballistics Products 20ga 1/8" Felt Wad over the SSW below the shot
- 15 grains of Red Dot
- 7/8 oz shot
- Overshot card
- roll crimp

To remove the shot-out crimp from my Rem STS hulls, they need to be at 2-3/8" long.

[Liberty1776]

12 ga 2 1/2" Roll crimp
Rem plastic base wad only (unibody)
1 1/8 oz shot
Powder Red dot 18.5 grs
Wad Win WAA 12
use 12 ga over shot card then roll crimp





Trapper, the above looks good.

I made up two test shells:

Test 1
1. Cut the Rem STS to 2-3/8" long to remove old crimp
2. 16.7 grains Red Dot (MEC 30 bushing)
3. CCI209M primer (it's what I have)
4. Standard Claybuster CB0178-12 gray wad (WAA12L equiv, 7/8 oz shot), but trimmed the petals 1/8" short to fit
5. 7/8oz #7-1/2 shot
6. Overshot card
7. Roll crimp
Resulting round is 2-1/4" long

***

Then I looked at the Claybuster CB1118-12 (WAA12 equiv) wad. It's 1/8" shorter already, but normally carries 1-1/8 oz of shot.

Test 2
1. Cut Rem STS hull to 2-3/8"
2. Prime with CCI209M
3. 16.7 grains Red Dot (MEC bush 30)
4. Seat CB1118-12 wad over powder
5. Add 20ga 1/8" felt wad to take up shot space
6. Drop 7/8 oz #7-1/2 shot
7. Overshot card
8. Roll crimp

Resulting round is 2-1/4" long.

Thanks.

[trapper9260]

You welcome . Glad to help. Most of the other brands of hulls you can use Federal data on them. As long they have the same body of a Fed. I found this on hulls that there is no data on .

[2152hq]

Cut the hull to 2 1/2"
Load the shell with the same components as you would have been doing as if it was still a 2 3/4" hull.
No special loading

When you get to the Pre-Crimp stage,,,place a thin Over-Shot card wad on top of the shot charge.
You can use a round card wad that fits the entire hull nicely. .

Now Pre-Crimp on your standard Star Crimp station on your reloading Press.
NO special platform to raise the hull is needed either at the Pre-Crimp or the next station,,the Final Crimp.

After Pre-Crimp, move the shell to the Final Crimp and fimly crimp the hull.

This will form a Star crimp using Part of the hull that includes the original Star crimp petals. About 1/8" or a bit less of that orig length.
That is more than enough to roll the edge over and then form the Star crimp itself and hold it's shape/form over the Card Wad you placed on top of the shot charge.

The load is now finished.

You have a 2 1/2" 12ga loaded round.
It has the same payload and componenets as your 2 3/4" hull. But it's all loaded into a hull that is 2 1/2" long.
The crimp is a partially formed Star crimp made with no extra tools nor adjustments to your reloading press.
The extra card wad over the shot retains the shot charge at the front/middle where the orig Star Crimp fold does not reach and acts exactly
the same as the over shot wad does when doing a Roll Crimp. But w/o the extra step and machine set up of Roll Crimping.

This is not my idea. It's been around for a number of years and is the idea of a gent named Hartin,,so it has the name of Hartin Shotshell Crimp.
Vintage shotgun shooters use it a lot in reloading for the short chambered elderly guns in 2 1/2, 2 5/8, 2 9/16" chanbers.


If you search Hartin Shotshell Crimp you will find more info on it.

[Geezer in NH]

Bingo chips work fine for a shot wad to roll crimp and are cheap on Amazon.

[harkom]

Cap'n could you define exactly "the stack height"? Measured from the base wad uppermost surface, ,,,or the upper surface of powder, or op card - to underside of- or topside- of shot?


The Spin-N-Trim works well, but you'll probably have to replace the rivet with a screw and locknut to hold the two halves tight together
and keeping the cutting edge from wandering.

Notice that if you reduce the stack height, you MUST reduce the powder load, or the pressure will spike dramatically.

[Cap'n Morgan]

The "stack height" is anything between the powder and the shot column and can be a combination of several different components.
The important part of the stack height is how much space it takes up when fully compressed. Hard card wads will compress very little, felt and cork wads somewhat more, and polyethylene wads can be anything in between depending on their design. It is important to realize that the amount of wad compression during launch is directly related to the chamber pressure - especially with fast powders.
The more a wad can compress, the larger the true "boiler room" will be, and subsequently, the lower the pressure.

This is one of the reasons the shotshell reloading manuals stress the importance of following their recipes to the letter. Once you start to swap wads and hulls, you're on your own.
Not that it can't be safely done - I do it all the time - but you must have a firm understanding of what you're dealing with.

[harkom]

Thank you for the clarification on this point.
Previously I had assumed the "stack height" to mean the combined powder, wad(s) and shot column - the optimal total height supposedly being that which leaves the exact amount of free tube to form a good/factory-style fold crimp.

[Nightwing_Actual]

Trapper, I’m going to save this for later- thanks for the great info!