Powder compression and filler

[Silhouette]

I'm experimenting with black powder in my 44-40 and want to try 26gns of 2fg with Semolina (cow) filler.
Once all cases are charged I hold the side of the loading block against my tumbler to vibrate the powder down.
Here's my rookie question:
Do I need to compress the powder prior to adding the filler or can I just compress the filler down onto the powder about 1/16" using the bullet?

[country gent]

I would compress with a wad then add the filler and a thin wad seat the bullet. I use a .030 or .020 wad between powder and wad in 44-40. Just to make sure the powder and filler font mix. Then a typing paper was under the bullet, but my main filler is cream of wheat

[greenjoytj]

I would compress the black powder first, that creates a hard surface that the cream of wheat (COW) won’t penetrate.
But to be sure the BP an COW stays separate I would tamp in a disk of very thin paper like cigarette rolling paper or airmail weight writing paper. Then add the COW and try the load with and with without a card wad between the COW and the bullet base.
This way you don’t need worry about BP compression because it’s already done. The COW can be added to float the bullet with little to no further compression just enough filler to prevent bullet set back if your bullet doesn’t have a crimp groove.

Now if I was loading the 44-40 I would be making it roar or more accurately BOOM with a large charge of 2fg for rifle use or 3fg if for a revolver. Then chrono to see which works best in both firearms with the least compromise in performance.

[Silhouette]

Ok thanks for the advice. I had already loaded up 20 rounds before I thought to ask.
There is nothing to separate the powder from the filler but there is no airspace. Would they be ok to fire off or should I pull them apart?

[Randy Bohannon]

44-40 what ,rifle ,pistol ? A good lube a proper bullet no card or wad or anything else is needed. Fill the case with powder to a little above where the bullet will seat where its supposed to. That’s about 32~35 grs. of powder with slight compression depending on bullet and brass. Fillers and card stock is simply not needed in a small case and you barley notice the recoil difference between a few more gains of powder,keep it simple with B/P in small cases.

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

I'm personally obsessed with creating accurate .44-40 black powder ammunition that replicates the ballistics of the original loading. 36-37 grains of Swiss gets me there, pushing the bullet over 1,300FPS. I love the historical aspects so much I don't think I'll ever mess with reduced loads.

[ian45662]

Ok thanks for the advice. I had already loaded up 20 rounds before I thought to ask.
There is nothing to separate the powder from the filler but there is no airspace. Would they be ok to fire off or should I pull them apart?

They will be just fine to try out.


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[Silhouette]

Thanks Ian.

[GregLaROCHE]

Ok thanks for the advice. I had already loaded up 20 rounds before I thought to ask.
There is nothing to separate the powder from the filler but there is no airspace. Would they be ok to fire off or should I pull them apart?

I don’t want to give advice, but I would shoot them. In the future, you should put a card or something between. Why not fill them with BP? Have you considered a grease cookie ?

[Froogal]

I have experimented with black powder and c.o.w. in .45 Colts. I simply determined how much 3F was needed, reduced that by a certain amount and made up the difference with the c.o.w. Compression took place when the bullet was seated. I did NOT use an over powder card anywhere. Those loads worked quite well in my revolvers, but had a tendency to foul the bore in the rifle. I experimented with other combinations, including several duplex loads and all had the same tendency for bore fouling. So what I'm saying is--just pour in the 2F or 3F, top it off with cream of wheat, and go shoot it.

[Silhouette]

I don’t want to give advice, but I would shoot them. In the future, you should put a card or something between. Why not fill them with BP? Have you considered a grease cookie ?

A full case of BP hasn't given accuracy comparable to the smokeless loads I've tried in this rifle. Just doing my own little experiment. No, haven't tried a grease cookie.

[Silhouette]

I have experimented with black powder and c.o.w. in .45 Colts. I simply determined how much 3F was needed, reduced that by a certain amount and made up the difference with the c.o.w. Compression took place when the bullet was seated. I did NOT use an over powder card anywhere. Those loads worked quite well in my revolvers, but had a tendency to foul the bore in the rifle. I experimented with other combinations, including several duplex loads and all had the same tendency for bore fouling. So what I'm saying is--just pour in the 2F or 3F, top it off with cream of wheat, and go shoot it.
It puts my mind at ease knowing it will be safe to try these. I haven't had the chance to shoot them yet, so we'll see.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

308054

For full power 44WCF Loads I use: Starline brass, CCI #300 primers, Accurate Molds 43-220CC in 30-1 alloy, lubed with DGL and 37gr of Swiss 2F. Powerful and accurate out of my 24" barreled Winchester 1873 (Uberti)
I shoot lever action silhouette and found this load is a lot more than is needed for the pistol caliber/half scale targets. I used cream of wheat for a reduced load filler and it worked fine. It was just a pain in the rump to remove the case from the turret press, dump the C.O.W. ballistic filler.....

I found these paper wads that are labeled as .125in thick, they measure .140in thick to me. I load as above except I use 27gr of Swiss 1.5F and one Circle Fly Wad. After the powder station, I set a wad in the case mouth and compress the powder with the wad to the same depth as a full charge. This adds maybe 2 seconds to each case and is so much easier and faster than C.O.W..
This "Henry Equivalent" load is accurate and powerful out to 100 meters. The last match of the year I shot a 39 out of forty with this load.

[Silhouette]

39 out of 40 is what my dreams are made of.
David what would your group size be like with that load?
Mine are consistently 4" at 50m. So at rams, luck would play a big part in my hits.
Groups with smokeless are less than half that.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

Silhouette
That rifle is accurate with a couple different loads. Both the full power and Henry Equivalent loads shoot 10 shot 100 meter groups at just under 2 inches.
Even with Swiss black powder you need to do load development. As my rifle is an 1873 Winchester (Uberti) seating depth/cartridge length can't be adjusted. So, I simply tried different amounts of powder which leads to different amounts of compression. Then it is simply finding the load that is the most accurate.
The full power load is plenty accurate and I am not trying to save money on powder. It's just when I knock over a 50 meter pig with a 40 meter chicken I get looked at funny. A fat , soft 220gr bullet just wacks them into next week. Using a light load I then discovered that I could see the target fall through my sights. This really helped me maintain follow through.
By the way, when I shot the 39 I started on turkeys. That means I finished on pigs. Those last five pigs were nerve racking. I thought that I was going to have a panic attack. Oh, I missed ram #1.

[HWooldridge]

One word of caution. A pure lead (or almost pure lead) boolit will distort easily if you have a lot of compression. I built a separate plug die to compress all the charged cases then I seat the bullet with not much effort.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

One word of caution. A pure lead (or almost pure lead) boolit will distort easily if you have a lot of compression. I built a separate plug die to compress all the charged cases then I seat the bullet with not much effort.

Agreed, I should have said that I use a compression die.

[Silhouette]

Looks I have lots of experimenting to do.
Might even try a different bullet that holds more lube. I'm currently using the Lee 429-200-RF which is the first mold I ever bought.
Mine too is a Winchester 73 but Miroku.

[Randy Bohannon]

The Accurate mould is very accurate in the Miroku 44-40 WCF rifles Targets shot 100 yards.

[Wayne Smith]

I made a compression die out of an old bullet seater I got off ebay years ago. Single dies weren't expensive then. Just fill the seat plug with hot melt glue and cut smooth.

[Thundermaker]

The Accurate mould is very accurate in the Miroku 44-40 WCF rifles Targets shot 100 yards.

Wow. I have a long way to go. I'm using the accurate 430-215c cast from COWW and sized to .430. The best I've gotten is 4" at 100. Of course, 40 grains of Scheutzen crammed in the case only gives me 1080 fps, so the poor quality powder might have something to do with it.

[harbor2]

The Accurate mould is very accurate in the Miroku 44-40 WCF rifles Targets shot 100 yards.

Randy, I can't make out the load info on your target. Looks like 38 grs OE under the 43-215C Accurate mould. Is that correct? If I may ask, what is the hardness of your bullet and diameter? I have the Miroku 73 saddle ring carbine with the Marbles peep sight and mostly Starline brass.
John

[Randy Bohannon]

Yes you have it correct , all bullets are cast with RotoMetals 16:1 alloy. R.P. brass, bullets are sized 429”, Winchester brass sized .430 . What surprised me was being able to put 40 grains of either Swiss 1.5 or O.E. in the case and compress enough the seat the bullet and not swell the case. 36-38 grains of powder has been the accurate load ether with the 43-215c or the 43-230 , no card or wad, lube is 50/50 olive oil and bees wax with some food grade lamb tallow added.

[Randy Bohannon]

Both of my Miroku 1873’s have 26” barrels , one half round, one tapered octagon which might shoot a bit better than the half round barrel. Since both rifles support tang sights I opted for MVA front and rear sights as I was wanting to determine accuracy potential of the new 1873’s and the Miroku guns. They have not disappointed .

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

Wow. I have a long way to go. I'm using the accurate 430-215c cast from COWW and sized to .430. The best I've gotten is 4" at 100. Of course, 40 grains of Scheutzen crammed in the case only gives me 1080 fps, so the poor quality powder might have something to do with it.

John Kort's tests and my own have resulted in better 44WCF accuracy with softer alloys. We both tried wheel weight alloy. While I had no leading in the bore, 30-1 alloy is much more accurate. Scheutzen is not BAD powder but Swiss is better. Also Federal and Winchester primers have proven to produce less accuracy than CCI #300.

[Don McDowell]

My 44wcf prefers 16-1 alloy bullets sized .430 my Colt likes it too. Chi primers give better results than Winchester or federal with Remingtons a close second so close in fact its just a matter of which ones I grab when priming cases. 37 grains of OE 2 f , bullets lubed with Bulshops Nasa

[harbor2]

Thank you all for the load info on the .44 wcf. I'm wanting to hunt deer and antelope so will try a load with the 43-215C bullet 30-1 and sized to .429 over 38 grs OE.

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

Randy, that is astounding shooting. I’m experimenting with the same bullet and powder in Starline cases in my Uberti 1873 and haven’t gotten a group that good at 50 yards! I am not a great shot though. I may never get the accuracy you do, but it that is very inspiring I must say!

[Silhouette]

Reviving this thread just to give you an update.
I had put this project on hold for a while because I was tired of getting nowhere. This rifle (Miroku '73) was my most inaccurate lever action. I had been persevering with the Lee bullets and could not for the life of me, get them to shoot well with bp even though smokeless loads were reasonable. Reduced loads with fillers were the worst and some groups were 20" at 50m. Yes, that's right, half a meter!
So recently I decided to give it another go and forked out for a Accurate 43-215C mold. It arrived the other day and after casting a couple of hundred (drops at 223gn), today I picked a random starting point of 34gns of Wano 2F.
Well 4 shots went into 5/8" at 50m off a crude rest and the 5th shot was an inch away (operator error).
That equates to about 1 1/2" at 100m. I haven't tried it with a smokeless load yet but if it's consistent then it will be on par with my most accurate lever action.

To say I'm impressed by the difference would be an understatement. Now I just have to get my lube to stay in the groove. Pan lubing hasn't been successful with this bullet.

[Abert Rim]

That is a very fine mold, all right.