Lapping out H & H sizing die - how to measure when done?

[huntinlever]

Dumb question but I've totally forgotten. I will be sizing a 405 grain to .460 using the Lee sizer. I'll only be lubing with the LAM and the H & H sizing die I have is 459, so I want to open it up to .461. IIRC I used a dowel and some fine emory, perhaps with a touch of oil. I went bit by bit and at some point it was perfect. I just can't remember what I used to determine when I'd opened the die out to the right dimension.

I have calipers for outside dimension but nothing for inside....how do you guys do it?

[Polymath]

Well, I have made a few sizers and the trick is to get close and then size a few, check diameter. Proceed until desired size. Remember it is a taper ID, and narrower at the top (if using a Lee push through) Luber sizers tend to be cylindrical. I find there will be some spring back so it's important to stop and check when you get close. The final result is what matters. I modified a Lee 405 Sharpes mold RNHB. Turned it into a wide flat nose for tubular rifles. I easily lube them by hand with Goblin Snot and then size them. With opening up the sizer a bit you have to watch for chambering issues. Good luck.

[huntinlever]

Well, I have made a few sizers and the trick is to get close and then size a few, check diameter. Proceed until desired size. Remember it is a taper ID, and narrower at the top (if using a Lee push through) Luber sizers tend to be cylindrical. I find there will be some spring back so it's important to stop and check when you get close. The final result is what matters. I modified a Lee 405 Sharpes mold RNHB. Turned it into a wide flat nose for tubular rifles. I easily lube them by hand with Goblin Snot and then size them. With opening up the sizer a bit you have to watch for chambering issues. Good luck.

OK, thanks. I know the case has a slight taper but wasn't aware the bullet does as well, though I should look more closely at boolit specs. My gg slugs out at .458, to give me a bit of play with changing alloys Tom is making the mold at .461, I planned to size the Lee at .460, and just lube the boolit with the LAM and die at the opened-out .461 from its OEM .459.

Given the H & H die is the proper taper (sounds like, anyway, if I've understood you correctly), I'm wondering if I should just leave it alone at .459, and accept only a 0.001 overbore rather than the 0.002 I used previously.

[Tim357]

huntinlever, I believe Polymath was referring to the inside of the sizing die is to have a taper. That's to facilitate pushing the boolit thru with a steady narrowing, as a funnel. The boolit will be cylindrical once it leaves the sizing die

[huntinlever]

Oh, lol, thanks. Yep, now I see that its narrowest diameter will be the boolit's final diameter.

If the sizing die is somehow opened to .461 (evenly - not sure how to make a cylindrical chamber when it's slightly tapered, now), and it's sized at ..460 out of the Lee, i.e., used only for lubing the bullet - that will work, right? Should I just size them at the Lee, incrementally open up the luber-sizer die and put test bullets through the LAM so that barely any resistance is felt, and the bullet goes down snugly but without any actual "sizing," would that work?

[Willie T]

It is not gonna take much. .001 all the way around will give you the .002 to get to .361 from .359. That is not much. Chuck a bore mop of the appropriate size in your power drill with lapping compound and run it in the top end and polish it. Go slow. Clean it out and size a bullet. Repeat till you get there. Go slow.

[oley55]

if you really need to known the size, slip a pin gauge in there. But know those pin gauges are as close to perfectly round as is reasonably possible. Consequently, the opening you just opened up with a dowel and emery cloth is surely not as perfectly round as the pin gauge will be. Meaning the pin gauge is going to tell you what the smallest portion of the opening is.

You can buy individual pin gages from the known and respected gauge manufacture but it is hit or miss on what gauge/s you will need at .001" increments. A Chinesium gauge set can be had on fleabay for less than $100 that will serve for many uses. I got a set for use in measuring/honing revolver cylinders.

Guess what I'm saying is a set of Chinesium pin gauges can be used for many purposes. On the other hand MICing the bullets pushed through the die tells you exactly what you need to know, Alloy spring back being real life versus having your die measure exactly .XXX" isn't telling you what size your boolit will be. note: MICing means using a micrometer not a caliper.

[oley55]

It is not gonna take much. .001 all the way around will give you the .002 to get to .361 from .359. That is not much. Chuck a bore mop of the appropriate size in your power drill with lapping compound and run it in the small end and polish it. Go slow. Clean it out and size a bullet. Repeat till you get there. Go slow.

I am not following how .001" off the diameter equals .002". We are not talking about using a lathe and taking off .001" which gives you .002". He is honing and measuring the finished diameter or I am way confused.

[woody1]

I am so confused. Why not size and lube with the LAM? One H&I to hone out and done. You don't have to measure the diameter of the die. Measure the boolits that come out of it becsuse some spring back is likely. Or am I missing something? Regards, Woody

[BK7saum]

It is not gonna take much. .001 all the way around will give you the .002 to get to .361 from .359. That is not much. Chuck a bore mop of the appropriate size in your power drill with lapping compound and run it in the top end and polish it. Go slow. Clean it out and size a bullet. Repeat till you get there. Go slow.


I am not following how .001" off the diameter equals .002". We are not talking about using a lathe and taking off .001" which gives you .002". He is honing and measuring the finished diameter or I am way confused.

0.001" of material removed all the way around (circumferentially, NOT diameter) is 0.002" off of the diameter.

He was illustrating how little material has to be removed from the inside of the die to get the increase in diameter.

[huntinlever]

Hey Woody -

I know it's an extra step, I just found it was easier to size and mount the GC's first with the Lee, then just lube with the luber (at the time, Lyman 450). I'm sure it works great both ways, just had good luck this way.

[huntinlever]

So - plan to do the "lap-lapping" with split dowel and first, 400 wet-dry and a little oil (leaving some room for the final polishing with 600 grit), then slugging either with one of my old boolits or some lead balls, like bore-slugging. Rinse and repeat until done.

Is that a good plan?

[lar45]

H&H is Holland & Holland, the sizer die is H&I

I agree with polish, size and measure the slug. You will probably get some spring back, so measuring the slugs will give you the closest measurement for your end product.

[huntinlever]

H&H is Holland & Holland, the sizer die is H&I

I agree with polish, size and measure the slug. You will probably get some spring back, so measuring the slugs will give you the closest measurement for your end product.

Lol, tad different, the .375 Magnum and this sizer die...!

Thanks. Will do. For the lapping, is a standard gun oil OK to use, or should it be something lighter?

[murf205]

Paul, those Lee sizers are softer than you think. It wont take a whole lot of lap-lapping to get where you want to go. I was surprised how little it took to get .001".

[huntinlever]

Paul, those Lee sizers are softer than you think. It wont take a whole lot of lap-lapping to get where you want to go. I was surprised how little it took to get .001".

Hey Murf, thanks. I'm actually planning on leaving the Lee sizer alone because with a bore at 0.58, I've had good luck with the .460 of the Lee. It's the H & I sizer luber die I want to open up a tad because I have one at .459", which is the widest I've found. Most I've seen are actually 458 in my experience.

[Larry Gibson]

If I wanted to increase the bullet size after sizing I measure the diameter of the sized bullet and determine from that how much I want to hone the "H" die out. In your case if the bullets are sized .459 and I want them .461 then I want a .002 increase in sizing. I would then measure the diameter of the "I" die (the push rod) after removal and order a pin gauge .002 over that diameter. I then chuck the "H" die in my lathe turning it it a low speed while honing it out. I frequently stop honing, run a patch through the "H" die and try inserting the new pin gauge. When the new pin gauge is a tight fit I then polish the hole. I then make the pin gauge into a new "I" die for the honed out "H" die. I slightly cup one end of the pin gauge and shorten it to the original "I" die length. The final fit of the "I" die is then similar to the original "I" die in the "H" die before honing so I get minimal lube flow up around the base of the bullet and out the bottom of the "H" die. Those that have honed out "H" dies and used the original "I" die know what a PITA that excess lube flow can be.

[huntinlever]

If I wanted to increase the bullet size after sizing I measure the diameter of the sized bullet and determine from that how much I want to hone the "H" die out. In your case if the bullets are sized .459 and I want them .461 then I want a .002 increase in sizing. I would then measure the diameter of the "I" die (the push rod) after removal and order a pin gauge .002 over that diameter. I then chuck the "H" die in my lathe turning it it a low speed while honing it out. I frequently stop honing, run a patch through the "H" die and try inserting the new pin gauge. When the new pin gauge is a tight fit I then polish the hole. I then make the pin gauge into a new "I" die for the honed out "H" die. I slightly cup one end of the pin gauge and shorten it to the original "I" die length. The final fit of the "I" die is then similar to the original "I" die in the "H" die before honing so I get minimal lube flow up around the base of the bullet and out the bottom of the "H" die. Those that have honed out "H" dies and used the original "I" die know what a PITA that excess lube flow can be.


Well, that seems just about ideal Larry. Unfortunately I don't have a lathe and zero of the experience to use one if I did. I am starting to think I was just lucky - with the hand lapping, the old Lyman 450 performed perfectly, effortless and great looking lubing. I can understand what kind of fun lube splooging out the sides must be.

Starting to wonder if a local machine shop is the better option.

[Larry Gibson]

Might just look at getting a Pin gauge the fits the lapped out H die.

[huntinlever]

Might just look at getting a Pin gauge the fits the lapped out H die.

I'm intrigued Larry - but not sure, how would I do the process without a lathe?

Hi Larry - I found a pin gage at 0.461 (-) 0.000-0.0002. Are you just saying go ahead and hand lap, but use the pin gage in place of slugging the die, then replace the gage for the "I"? If so, awesome. How do you actually cup the end of the pin, without machining tools?

[murf205]

Paul, just a reminder; you can buy individual pins without buying a whole set. There's no need to buy dies that you will probably never use.

[huntinlever]

Paul, just a reminder; you can buy individual pins without buying a whole set. There's no need to buy dies that you will probably never use.

Thanks - I ended up with just the one at 0.461 (-) 0.0000/0.0002. Appreciate it.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm intrigued Larry - but not sure, how would I do the process without a lathe?

Hi Larry - I found a pin gage at 0.461 (-) 0.000-0.0002. Are you just saying go ahead and hand lap, but use the pin gage in place of slugging the die, then replace the gage for the "I"? If so, awesome. How do you actually cup the end of the pin, without machining tools?

This is what I said; "I would then measure the diameter of the "I" die (the push rod) after removal and order a pin gauge .002 over that diameter."

Did you measure the "I" die diameter? If so I doubt it was .459 [.461 minus .002]. It should have been .457 or maybe .458 at the largest as it must slip fit through a .459 sizer. That means if you hone out the "H" die to take a .461 pin gauge then the bllet sizing will be .462 - .463.

The "I" die of my .459 sizer measures .457. Thus, pin gauge of .459 would be appropriate for my current .459 "H" die were I to hone it out to .461. Suggest you actually measure the "I" die and order a pin gauge .002 over that diameter.

The "I" die top can be dished out slightly easily enough by chucking the "I" die in a 1/2" drill held in a vise. A Dremel tool with a small grinding stone can do the dishing while the drill turns the "I" die. A hack saw can then cut the new "I" die to the same OAL as the original. Then chuck it into the drill again and use a file to smooth and square the base and put a small bevel as on the original.

[huntinlever]

Oh, thanks, yes, I did miss that. The "I" is .458 at its widest. I'll re-order the right size. Not familiar at all with machining - this one has a tolerance of up to (-) 0.0002. Should I just order the .460, allowing it might be as low as .4598?

-and given a lack of expertise or equipment, given I have to cup the one side slightly and cut it down to the length of the "I," any suggestions? Is this a shop job?

[Dutchman]

For the lapping, is a standard gun oil OK to use, or should it be something lighter?

For 400 grit emery cloth I might use WD40. Motor oil would be too viscus, too thick. Don't forget to finish off with crocus cloth, also with WD40.

When in doubt: experiment!

Dutch

So what if you never use most of the pin gauges? You can tell which ones I've used. These came from one of the big sellers on fleabay with free shipping. I've never found one out of spec measured with a Mitutoyo 1/10,000th micrometer.

https://images34.fotki.com/v1636/photos/4/28344/9895637/12019071X-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/1-2019071x.html)

[gwpercle]

The best way is to size a couple boolits and measure them .
Measuring inside diameters is rather a pain ... like your rifle's bore ...
Drive a slug through it and measure the slug .

In Baton Rouge , Louisiana ... H & H is a very popular Lure making company ... my first bass baits were H & H Spinner Baits ... back in the day you had your choice of a double or single spinner blade ... everyone had H & H Spinner baits in their tackle box .
They now sell both Freshwater and Saltwater lures ... H & H Lure Company
Gary

[Larry Gibson]

A .0002 difference on the "I" die will be, essentially, meaningless.

If you don't feel confident in the minimal amount of alteration needed for the "I" die, then any machinist should be able to handle it with aplomb. Just give him the orignal "I" die and have him make both ends and the length the same.

I have done this alteration to several H&I dies over the years including opening my own .459 up to size bullets at .452 [that one sizes 16-1 alloyed bullets at .4515 because there is little spring back]. I used a .460 pin gauge for the "I" die. I'm getting ready to do another; a .257 H&I die I will hone out to size at .259. The "I" die measures .255. I've ordered a .257 pin gauge to use for the new "I" die. I'll hone the "H" die out until the .257 pin gauge is a smooth slip fit. I've no doubt the bullet will then be sized .259+/_ given variances in alloys.

[huntinlever]

A .0002 difference on the "I" die will be, essentially, meaningless.

If you don't feel confident in the minimal amount of alteration needed for the "I" die, then any machinist should be able to handle it with aplomb. Just give him the orignal "I" die and have him make both ends and the length the same.

I have done this alteration to several H&I dies over the years including opening my own .459 up to size bullets at .452 [that one sizes 16-1 alloyed bullets at .4515 because there is little spring back]. I used a .460 pin gauge for the "I" die. I'm getting ready to do another; a .257 H&I die I will hone out to size at .259. The "I" die measures .255. I've ordered a .257 pin gauge to use for the new "I" die. I'll hone the "H" die out until the .257 pin gauge is a smooth slip fit. I've no doubt the bullet will then be sized .259+/_ given variances in alloys.

Thanks Larry, lapped out very nicely. I was able to smoothly but snugly push the 0.460 pin gauge through, then finished with a polish.

I'd give it a try on fashioning the I die from the pin gauge, but I don't have the tools. (Former chef, and his tools, minor odds and ends otherwise). I'll drop it off, easy job as you say.

Been interesting, learned. Thanks again.

[huntinlever]

Well, interestingly, I contacted a few local shops and all of them said they can't do it as the gauge is hardened steel and they're not set up for that. They can chop it, but the heat from the chop saw, etc., would screw up the metal. If they can't do it, I know I can't. Thoughts?

I'm wondering if I might have to put up with the OEM I Die at .468 and like the previous time (old Lyman), deal with the lube coming up the sides, and wiping the boolits down. This is what they used to look like more or less:

308045

[slughammer]

....They can chop it, but the heat from the chop saw, etc., would screw up the metal. If they can't do it, I know I can't. Thoughts?



Don't worry about loosing the hardness of the cut pin. Annealed steel is plenty hard compared to the lead that is pushing it down. It will still last forever.

Do you own a dremel? How about a 1/2" drill?
The 1/2" drill is a bonus, but not necessary; if you have one, use it to spin the pin as you cut it. If not, just cut the pin with a cut-off wheel in the dremel. Use the cut end as the bottom, the ejector mechanism of the press doesn't care if the pin bottom is pretty.

Cupping the top helps seal the pin to the gas check. This helps keep lube off the bullet base. Cupping the top is a "nice" feature, but not 100% necessary.

I find that keeping consistent pressure on the nose of the bullet keeps the bullet from lifting and that keeps lube off the bases.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[huntinlever]

Don't worry about loosing the hardness of the cut pin. Annealed steel is plenty hard compared to the lead that is pushing it down. It will still last forever.

Do you own a dremel? How about a 1/2" drill?
The 1/2" drill is a bonus, but not necessary; if you have one, use it to spin the pin as you cut it. If not, just cut the pin with a cut-off wheel in the dremel. Use the cut end as the bottom, the ejector mechanism of the press doesn't care if the pin bottom is pretty.

Cupping the top helps seal the pin to the gas check. This helps keep lube off the bullet base. Cupping the top is a "nice" feature, but not 100% necessary.

I find that keeping consistent pressure of the nose of the bullet keeps the bullet from lifting and that keeps lube off the bases.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

Wow, fantastic, thanks. I'll give it a shot. I do have a 1/2" drill, but not a Dremel. I'm sure I can bum one from a friend. Lol, the "I" dropped from the "H" and I wasn't sure which end faces the boolit bottom - thought it was the flat end, not the concave end. Great to know, many thanks. Any suggestion on cupping the top? Is there something like a "core box" router bit for steel, something to shape the one end into a concave?

[slughammer]

..
.Any suggestion on cupping the top? Is there something like a "core box" router bit for steel, something to shape the one end into a concave?

Spin it with the drill and grind it freehand with the dremel while it's spinning.

Just black the end up with a sharpie. Start grinding near the center and work your way toward the edge. Leave a thin black band. (I've seen extreme and minimal, I'd suggest the minimal version.) Cup both sides before you cut it off, pick the best one and cut off the other.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[huntinlever]

OK great, thanks.