240gr Elmer Keith hardcast loads

[lx2008]

hi guy`s,
need a bit knowledge from you. i have couple of 44mag revolvers (anaconda, 629...both 6in ).
i always loaded nothing but 240gr jhp`s with these revolvers. i recently purchased a s&w model 69 (4.5in bbl)
and some missouri bullets 240gr hard cast (brinell of 18). i`m looking to use these hard cast as practice but not
soft plinking loads. i want to obtain a load that is close as i can to the recoil of full magnum load.

the pistol powders i have on hand are as follows:
titegroup
cfe pistol
autocomp
win 231
imr 4227
win 296
h110.

wish i had some 2400 but its hard to find. you guys have any suggestions on powder & charge wt.
that can use from what i have on hand to give me a good practice rd that is close enough so
there is not too much difference in recoil? like i said as close as i can get using the lead. (no gas checks on these )

thank you for your help!

[HWooldridge]

296 or H110 will give you factory level loads.

[lx2008]

will i have too much leading using a hot load w/ this hard cast?

[shooter bob]

A lot depends on what diameter they are 429? 430? 431? Hopefully at least 430 .I would check some

[lx2008]

they are .430

[shooter bob]

Depending on throat size you should be ok . I shoot .430 from my super Blackhawk at mag speed no problem

[shooter bob]

I just noticed your from PA also any luck deer hunting this year?

[lx2008]

dont hunt any longer. have not in nearly 30yrs. health conds. but from what i have heard so far it has not been good so far
at least in my neck of the woods.

[shooter bob]

been a good year from marienville to Pittsburgh all deer processing shops were full by late first Saturday. I saw 14 deer 2 small bucks first day. Best I seen in years.good luck with your swc 240 gr bullets. Let us know how it goes.Bob

[lx2008]

sure will. thnx

[MT Gianni]

I believe you will have to push them fairly hard with that hard of a bullet. I am not sure I would want to shoot that out of a model 69. I shoot mine with medium target loads and pack heavier loads with much softer bullets.
If you can't push them fast enough to obdurate they will lead up your bbl.

[MT Gianni]

Elmer considered his "hard cast" loads to be 1 part tin out of 16 parts lead. His soft was 1 in 10. Both are softer than modern (2000) wheel weights, about 10 bhn.

[lx2008]

thank you for the info...i will load a few and see if i lead the bbl too much. wont to too hard to determine.

[racepres]

I have been using a Wax Wad, gas check style, with commercial hard cast in my SBH... makes a huge difference..
Keep posting with your results!!
Inquiring minds want to know!!!

[slughammer]

I would use a midrange load of W231.

Typically commercial cast has a hard lube for shipping. If you have a problem with leading you could try adding a coat of tumble lube with Lee Liquid Alox.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

will i have too much leading using a hot load w/ this hard cast?

That is mostly dependent on the lube used. If they have a hard wax lube then I wouldn't be surprised if they leaded. I always give such commercial cast bullets a light coat of LLA and let dry thoroughly before loading. That usually mitigates the leading.

23 - 24 gr of the 4227 or the H110/296 will get you top end magnum loads. Use a WLR or magnum primer with the H110/296 along with a heavy crimp.

[lx2008]

thanks larry,
i have some Imr 4227. btw, i ran out of LP Mag primers a while ago. i loaded up 23grs of 296 under 240gr nosler jhp`s recently using only LP
and i didnt notice much difference from using mag primers. i also didnt get any un-burned powder either. i did always use mag primers using h110 & 296
but when you cant find any or internet shops or local shops are selling for $100+ for a brick you have to do what you have to.

[Larry Gibson]

The Magnum primers will ensure ignition in colder weather.

[lx2008]

yes you are correct. thanks!

[lx2008]

i just found some LP mag primers today online, free haz & free ship

[DougGuy]

Push a .430" boolit through the cylinder throats from the front, see if they go or if you gotta force them. If you have to force them, then the cylinder will size them down to throat diameter, and with BHN18 you may or may not see much obturation, so you may see leading.

[ABJ]

As DougGuy said, the cylinder throat size will be the major factor in leading. I was gifted some old Laser cast (BHN 21) sized at .430. All my guns prefer .431. As long as I got the velocity up around 1000 they would bump up and not lead, below a thousand they leaded. Larry is right a light coating of LAA will help. The other thing you can try is use Tightgroup or Bullseye and start at 850 fps. I have noticed these faster powders pressure curve helps in situations like this, assuming your throats are larger than .430. I can shoot undersized bullets with unique starting in the 9.0/9.5 range under a 240 swc with no leading. I can not remember the tightgroup charge.
Tony

[lx2008]

i was going to check this after it was mentioned. the first loads i was going to try was with 10grs of titegroup. from different sources it tells me i should be around 1288( this came from load data. com) but i was going to start out a 9.0 and chrono them. i figure at this hard of boolit i would want something a little fast/hot. am i correct?

[lx2008]

btw, i was looking thru several threads and came upon one that i think was from laser cast boolits from Oregon trail.
the link looked like lsrc. something or other. it was load data for their cast boolits. i went to their site and i didnt find anything.
another search i did for this brought up someone saying they paid 24.95 for the data but now it was free.

anyone know where i can find this data or was it dropped from oregon`s web site?

[ABJ]

I just tried my bookmark for the online manual and it is gone. It used to be a pdf document. I did print the pages I use the most but I guess I should have saved the whole thing. Interesting data but not much you cant find in other places other than the cowboy data. I just checked the Hodgen's online site and 10.0 is max with a 240 at 1288 for titegroup. A little hot for my personal preferences and I would use Unique or 4227 for the 1000 to 1150 velocity range. 2400 and H110 will do it as well, they are just a little blasty for my taste.
Tony

[lx2008]

thanks for looking

[lx2008]

Push a .430" boolit through the cylinder throats from the front, see if they go or if you gotta force them. If you have to force them, then the cylinder will size them down to throat diameter, and with BHN18 you may or may not see much obturation, so you may see leading.

dougguy,
i just put one of my boolits down into the cyl, even with a little bit of force it would not go thru.

[lx2008]

do anyone of you know of another manufacturer of liquid alox besides Lee? never used this stuff before so i was looking on line and reading some reviews and several if not quite alot said they received the 4oz bottle and when they went to use it it did not pour...it had to be squeezed out the bottle because it was thick like old wood glue. said you could use thinner but i did not want to mess around like that if i did not have to. i dont have a local shop around here to buy some so i have to order online & i dont want a bottle that was laying around for a long time. thats why i was wondering if another maker besides Lee made the alox. thnx!

[lx2008]

did a little looking around. i found LS`s 45-45-10 lube & a lube called Rooster Jacket (makers claim its a very good product up to 1,400 f.p.s.
anyone used one or the other or both?

[gunther]

Another fly in the ointment may be a bevel base on the commercial cast bullets that will make leading more possible with any but light loads.

[rintinglen]

LS 45-45-10, which is the commercial version of the Recluse 45/45/10 formula=45% Alox, 45% Johnson's Furniture wax, and 10% mineral Spirits, works very well. If it is a little too thick, warm it up. Place the bottle in a pan of hot (not boiling) water and let it set for 10-15 minutes and you'll be good to go.

If you want to make your own, just check the stickies in the Lube and Coatings section. That's what I did and it works as well as the store bought and dries faster than the LLA.

[lx2008]

just bought 16oz from lsstuff. they also told me it dries fast. thnx.

[OFFSHORE]

You've been given a lot of good advice. I'm onboard with Larry, H110/W296 and IMR4227 are the best powders you have listed for the 44 mag. working in the 21 to 23 grain range. IMR4227 you can load down and use a standard primer if you wanted. Before I began casting my own boolits, Montana Bullet Works is a great company to deal with for good bullets and great customer service along with the folks at lsstuff. There is 2400 out there if you search hard, I just bought 5 one pounders about a month ago. I'm also a fan of Accurate #9, Blue Dot, Universal and Longshot in my various 44's with cast boolits. Good luck.

[lx2008]

thanks, been doing some good reading from the LASC.US site. learning a lot from that site. one thing i`m remembering is a formula
of 1440 x the BHN of the cast boolit to try to prevent leading. i just purchased 500 keith style 240gr cast from missouri boolits.
they have a bhn of 18. if i load my rounds to 25-26k (according to the formula) i should not have a problem with obturation, which i had a concern about.

[Larry Gibson]

I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that formula.

Leading is more about fit and the lube used than about BHN. A BHN 18 bullet of 240 gr in the 44 Magnum can easily be shot at 36,000 psi (the SAAMI MAP) w/o any leading if the fit is correct and an appropriate lube is used. I've [along with hundreds if not thousands of others] shot thousands of said load [Keith's classic 22 gr of 2400] over the years w/o any leading using 240 - 255 gr bullets cast of COWW allow having a BHN of 11 - 12. Many, many other examples that we've been shooting for years with rifle and handgun cartridges that prove the formula wrong.

There are many things [myths, superstitions and old wife's tales]in this game that have been printed and sound good but in reality, are not factual. That formula, along with Lee's, are dogs that won't hunt.

[lx2008]

will take that in consideration. still learning.