Famous 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards Savage MKII is on my bench!

[Harry Tobin]

Hi guys, well finally got a new rifle for my shooting bench. This is sort of a long intro but it needs to be said. Over the years OSOK (Charlie) have become close friends and talk a lot on the phone. Now Charlie saw I was trying to get bug holes with my marlin 60, and we talked about it trying different things to improve its accuracy. A lot of time was spent on that project and could not get it to work, a semi was not a bench gun. I knew really what was needed was a bolt gun, but being retired and on limited funds I couldn’t afford a new gun. Then out of the blue Charlie said we needed to talk, he saw I was struggling and said he’d send me his famous 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards... Savage MKII. Once he got his CZ452 the Savage was parked and he wanted me to have it. I was overwhelmed by his generosity and friendship and I thank my big brother Charlie for this opportunity to show I could shoot good. So this journey started in August, and a lot has been done to this rifle to get it where it is today. THANK YOU CHARLIE !!!!



First day back from the FFL dealer I was like a kid at Christmas, got it all unpacked and mounted a Athlon 6-18x44 on it. Off to the bench I went, needed to get the scope dialed in. Got that dialed in and set a 1" dot in the target and pulled a .393 5 shot group out of it with Eley Contact!!!! and was still using his homemade torpedo tuner on it at the time. And this story goes on for awhile as it evolved into a real good shooter.
https://i.imgur.com/OH2KoUY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6jz7Oe7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/G4PW8pv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/n4x7Q6z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Zi1iMXI.jpg

Eley Contact
https://i.imgur.com/EaO6lLP.jpg

Sight in target

https://i.imgur.com/G6MYxwU.jpg

[OS OK]

Oh my gosh Harry...this is nice to wake up to this morning. I've been waiting for you to put pen to paper and tell the story that you have been through since acquiring that blankety blank rifle!
This is gonna be a good one.

I'll start by saying just one thing...(heheheee) "You wouldn't believe how much & how loud a little Bench Rest Rifle can make a grown man whine!"


https://i.imgur.com/RIs6AM5.jpg

[dverna]

Will be following with interest!!

[MrWolf]

Keep it coming. Waiting for more.

[Harry Tobin]

Well now I thought great, got a .393 on my first target and this should just walk right in. On the following days went out to repeat on what I saw before ( WRONG!!) This gun had a mind of its own!! Now granted I was using Eley Contact which is still a bulk ammo just a little better grade. Then I started to adjusting the torpedo tuner and that did have some good results at times but very hard to adjust. The quality of this Savage was really low but it was the only thing I had to work with. Countless hours on the phone with Charlie coming up with different ideas. So here are some early targets with ½ circle. This wasn’t going as I’d hoped and a lot more work needed to be done!!

All center #1 are warmers 1/2" circles on target

https://i.imgur.com/lFQrAUq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uLeD6gP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LZSFdEv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MRd6pTE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/d9TQ9sz.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/D28ZfxU.jpg

to be continued

[Gtek]

Wonderful story and glad to hear of your success, but silly me enjoyed the pictures maybe a little more!
My observations-
#1- Umbrella in PVC attached to zero turn, too cool!
#2- 2 boards on inverted five gallon bucket for correcting behind/line of sight issues.
#3- Down range wind indicator.
#4- Very, very nice shooting bench and set up.
#5- And my favorite is the "Brass Catcher Extraordinaire", that is truly over the top! I see all the thought that went into that one, very impressive.
Looks like somebody has been bit with the BR Bug some kind of bad. That stinking Eley, makes you happy when you find it now, then it hurts a little when you buy 22LR at that price, then it makes you smile when you shoot it. Have fun and keep it coming!!!!

[OS OK]

Wonderful story and glad to hear of your success, but silly me enjoyed the pictures maybe a little more!
My observations-
#1- Umbrella in PVC attached to zero turn, too cool!
#2- 2 boards on inverted five gallon bucket for correcting behind/line of sight issues. (For the life of me I can't get that Yankee to get a proper stool!)
#3- Down range wind indicator.
#4- Very, very nice shooting bench and set up. (This guy Harry needs something...he just builds it!)
#5- And my favorite is the "Brass Catcher Extraordinaire", that is truly over the top! I see all the thought that went into that one, very impressive.
Looks like somebody has been bit with the BR Bug some kind of bad. That stinking Eley, makes you happy when you find it now, then it hurts a little when you buy 22LR at that price, then it makes you smile when you shoot it. Have fun and keep it coming!!!!

I envy Men with sharp minds and talented hands! What I envy most is that attitude of 'never giving up', always 'mulling'...'won't quit' on something or somebody.

[BLAHUT]

You are on the right track, Need to try other match ammo, Every brand and every kind and find what your gun likes, Lots of the bench rest guys use Lapua ( sp )
Your work with the tuner is showing progress. Can you move it out to 100 yds ?

[Gtek]

I have one that MUST have the Eley 38 GR HP sub's, some this, some that. I wonder if he has started weighing and measuring rims and noses and sorting. Then we will know he has reached stage three!

[Abert Rim]

Harry, you shot some groups to be proud of -- but yes, you need to try other Eley and Lapua to eliminate the flyers.
OS OK: you're a good man.

[Harry Tobin]

part 3

Thank all of you for chiming in with your suggestions. Now as the days go on with this project I have mixed results, sometimes they go really well and get decent groups and sometime the groups are scattered. This does not stop my desire to be as good as I can with this non-custom gun. Now my wife says when I get into something I’m like a dog with a bone. This is true, I can’t and will not give in till I hit the goal I have set for myself. Now I’m showing all my targets as not to cherry pick the good only. And more hours of discussion with Charlie on the phone. I was never taught the proper way to handle a rifle and this was just self learned. Now I can shoot handguns really well but I was out of my element with this bench rest. Now thank god for Charlie as he took the time with me to walk me thru the techniques and the skill set to do this. There still is a lot left to this story and I will continue to tell it.

All #1 center are warmers if you see a number next to group it's probably my tuner setting

https://i.imgur.com/MYEX7SA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/sTZmQ1p.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BpFZVT7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/McPnV4R.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/O8RjR0o.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iQHP2sV.jpg

to be continued

[Harry Tobin]

Wonderful story and glad to hear of your success, but silly me enjoyed the pictures maybe a little more!
My observations-
#1- Umbrella in PVC attached to zero turn, too cool!
#2- 2 boards on inverted five gallon bucket for correcting behind/line of sight issues.
#3- Down range wind indicator.
#4- Very, very nice shooting bench and set up.
#5- And my favorite is the "Brass Catcher Extraordinaire", that is truly over the top! I see all the thought that went into that one, very impressive.
Looks like somebody has been bit with the BR Bug some kind of bad. That stinking Eley, makes you happy when you find it now, then it hurts a little when you buy 22LR at that price, then it makes you smile when you shoot it. Have fun and keep it coming!!!!

Thanks Gtek, I'm old but still learning

[Harry Tobin]

You are on the right track, Need to try other match ammo, Every brand and every kind and find what your gun likes, Lots of the bench rest guys use Lapua ( sp )
Your work with the tuner is showing progress. Can you move it out to 100 yds ?

Hi BLAHUT, I know ammo is a issue and will change as story goes on. Thanks for your feedback

[Harry Tobin]

Harry, you shot some groups to be proud of -- but yes, you need to try other Eley and Lapua to eliminate the flyers.
OS OK: you're a good man.

Abert you are right about Charlie he is a good man and I do consider him as a big brother. The groups come and go thru this whole journey and some major changes are made down the road. Thank you for your encouragement.

[Gtek]

Don't give up after round change and a couple groups, sometimes it takes a box or so for the new to "settle" in. When a new one is tried I scrub the bore clean and shoot a hundred before call is made to pursue or bail on it. Hard to chase with ladders when you pluck them out of the box, you get what you got! OS OK, was that barrel fed lead from day one, a few jacketed, the Flitz trick, JB, #0000?

[OS OK]

don't give up after round change and a couple groups, sometimes it takes a box or so for the new to "settle" in. When a new one is tried i scrub the bore clean and shoot a hundred before call is made to pursue or bail on it. Hard to chase with ladders when you pluck them out of the box, you get what you got! os ok, was that barrel fed lead from day one, a few jacketed, the flitz trick, jb, #0000?

Oh Lordie....that barrel has seen so many brands of ammo you wouldn't believe! Fortunately, it has only seen 'copper wash' Remington Yellow Jackets & Aguila Super Extra 40 grain for a short while. (Back then it was really tough to get a hold of any decent .22lr rim-fire up here in the Sierras where I live.)
I think they shot worse than I do as a shooter! ...:bigsmyl2:
I think I used 'Sweets' to clean after those cu/wash rounds and the bore-scope showed me the barrel was copper free. (I don't want to say anything more about the barrel...I'll leave that to Harry.)
All I know so far is that you can't depend on getting a clean looking bore by looking into the muzzle...that used to fool me every time until I got a bore-scope & then my eyes were opened wide.

https://i.imgur.com/Z107UCf.jpg

At some point I used this stuff...

https://i.imgur.com/Nv1MQHc.jpg

and that seemed to improve things but I mainly used the MKII for 'Peep & Globe' work at 50 yards so that & the fact that I was a neophyte at this .22 BR game I couldn't tell much about group sizes and them being improved.
You could call my shooting then..."Minute of tin can!" ...:bigsmyl2:

[BLAHUT]

Hi BLAHUT, I know ammo is a issue and will change as story goes on. Thanks for your feedback

The high and low shots are ammo variation in FPS ( consistence ) with better quality ammo you get what you pay for, usually ? I was taught when you change ammo brands, clean the barrel well, then 10 shots to change the lube, then start looking ?? I have chassed this for years, 3 boys and myself shooting competition. I suggest moving out to 100 if you can, shows the veration in ammo better, and then, if you can keep 10 inside a quarter ( 0ne inch ) at 100 you will be there. When you find the one ? Buy all you can in the same lot number. You will be in the top bunch on the leader board....

[Harry Tobin]

The high and low shots are ammo variation in FPS ( consistence ) with better quality ammo you get what you pay for, usually ? I was taught when you change ammo brands, clean the barrel well, then 10 shots to change the lube, then start looking ?? I have chassed this for years, 3 boys and myself shooting competition. I suggest moving out to 100 if you can, shows the veration in ammo better, and then, if you can keep 10 inside a quarter ( 0ne inch ) at 100 you will be there. When you find the one ? Buy all you can in the same lot number. You will be in the top bunch on the leader board....

I fully understand the importance of having consistent ammo with low Sd’s to make the impact the same. But through analyzing this gun’s behavior we thought of mechanical issues also.
For one the stock itself, it’s a Boyd stock. They tend to remove way to much material inside giving little support and movement.
As far as moving the distance, I can’t do that now. This is set up in the back yard and the backstop would need to be moved, and winter is setting in here. The best I could get would be 75 yards. That will have to wait till springtime.

[BLAHUT]

I fully understand the importance of having consistent ammo with low Sd’s to make the impact the same. But through analyzing this gun’s behavior we thought of mechanical issues also.
For one the stock itself, it’s a Boyd stock. They tend to remove way to much material inside giving little support and movement.
As far as moving the distance, I can’t do that now. This is set up in the back yard and the backstop would need to be moved, and winter is setting in here. The best I could get would be 75 yards. That will have to wait till springtime.

Glass bed the action with free Flot barrel ? Piller bed ? Check action screws to see they are drawing equally if there are two ? Longer distance, just lets you see the group spread better ??

[Harry Tobin]

Part 4 Savage MKII-FVT

This whole project started with the intent of enjoying myself in my own backyard. No need to pack up and drive to the range. Pure enjoyment for me, and if I needed to change something I could walk over to my shop and change it. Then try again to see if I went the right way.
Through analyzing this gun’s performance, a decision was made to bed the action. The Boyd stock has way too much material removed to give good support. I didn’t like relying on screw torque as that can change things and uneven support.
Bedding with pillars was a much better thought to me, then it would be a perfect match for the stock to action. And no more over torque, the pillars would prevent that.
I have shot enough rounds through this to know something is not right, just couldn’t quite put my finger on it. But believing there could be movement in the stock, humidity and the flex of wood under compression...so that’s why I bedded it. Using JB weld slow set on this.
So I'll bring you through the process of all the things I have done to improve this rifle. It was a lot of work but worth it.


https://i.imgur.com/b1mJ3W2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3Gt2omd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pqNXKv8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4QuL7I1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vASMyqc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iv932mE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3Pmymvn.jpg

[Harry Tobin]

Part 5 Savage MKII Forend

Now after I did the bedding I tried it at the my range. Now I did think there was a small improvement. I still needed a more stable platform for keeping the gun steady on the front rest.
I decided to add a flat plate to the forend for more stability, the forend on its own had plenty of thickness so I could mill that flat parallel to the barrel. I also had a piece of 3/8 plate steel that was 3" wide. With the forend milled I fitted the plate to it using blind nuts. From there I shaped the plate. Once that was all shaped I epoxied the plate on with marine-grade epoxy. Now I was going to paint but I liked the look of the steel, so I gave that a coat of epoxy to seal it.
Now this project is starting to take shape for me



https://i.imgur.com/HXF41Tg.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/O6CUu8x.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3l5oA9x.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OCHzqsQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wIukxHd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KlCrR8U.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/n1BHHi6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FrFIxFG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8eztmpQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zopQYTb.jpg

[Harry Tobin]

I know through the progression of this project that some of you say better ammo, and I fully understand that. But I use a chronograph all the time to analyze my groups, and for what this ammo is I’m getting between 9-11 SD from it. Not the greatest but still not bad. From looking at targets and knowing the velocity of every shot I can tell if this ammo is performing well. And you’ll get an odd ball flyer and the chronograph will show you that. So if the ammo is performing well then that leads me to believe there are issues with the rifle. This is nowhere near a quality rifle, as you will see later as I go on.

[OS OK]

I remember when this was going down...it seemed so simple and straightforward.
It encouraged me to bed my old Mossberg 46D & I was sure I'd have the same success after watching Harry.

The next thing I can think of is 'PANIC' ... :bigsmyl2: ... HOW I PERT-NEAR PANICKED when I had trouble getting the action to release!

[Harry Tobin]

I remember when this was going down...it seemed so simple and straightforward.
It encouraged me to bed my old Mossberg 46D & I was sure I'd have the same success after watching Harry.

The next thing I can think of is 'PANIC' ... :bigsmyl2: ... HOW I PERT-NEAR PANICKED when I had trouble getting the action to release!

I know what ya mean, little taps and wiggling. But still nerve ranking if it doesn't release right away.

[Gtek]

Curious, is the barrel floating? Just for fun next trip to the yard, take a couple 3x5 cards with you and start shimming front end placing a little upward on pipe. 1, 2, 3 increasing layers and see if so inclined for experiment. Also the quality and level of your craftsmanship is very much noticed and applauded here. I have suffered from Central European genetics my whole life. It will take a while, it will be expensive, it will be heavy and it MUST be aesthetically pleasing which has been a curse and a blessing!

[Bigslug]

This is a fun thread and I'm curious to see how the tinkering applies across multiple types of ammo.

One thing I always remember when threads like this come up is that BR-50 died as an organized sport when the participants determined that after they had dialed the rifle in as far as possible, they were ultimately still at the mercy of ammo they couldn't control the manufacture of.

I sent my Department's team to an international match with mid-grade Federal Gold Medal that the sniper team had been using it for low cost practice and for that, it was good enough out of the box. To take it a step farther for their game, I sorted it for them by cartridge weight and rim thickness to get each shooter a batch that was as consistent within itself as possible. They brought back a nice stack of medals that I'd like to think was in part due to my efforts, but I made it clear to them in no uncertain terms, "Next time, you cats are buying ****ing Eley!", because there wasn't much left of me after that ordeal. :veryconfu

Looks like you have a pretty nice piece of hardwood under that cheesy black crinkle paint. Might be worth a strip and varnish. Sealing it off properly might or might not help with stability, but it's sure be a lot more pleasing to look at.

[dverna]

I enjoy these types of threads as well. They show reality.

The worst are threads of someone declaring they have "found the load" and show a very nice three shot group. It takes a lot of shooting and work to know what you have...or not.

[Harry Tobin]

This is a fun thread and I'm curious to see how the tinkering applies across multiple types of ammo.

One thing I always remember when threads like this come up is that BR-50 died as an organized sport when the participants determined that after they had dialed the rifle in as far as possible, they were ultimately still at the mercy of ammo they couldn't control the manufacture of.

I sent my Department's team to an international match with mid-grade Federal Gold Medal that the sniper team had been using it for low cost practice and for that, it was good enough out of the box. To take it a step farther for their game, I sorted it for them by cartridge weight and rim thickness to get each shooter a batch that was as consistent within itself as possible. They brought back a nice stack of medals that I'd like to think was in part due to my efforts, but I made it clear to them in no uncertain terms, "Next time, you cats are buying ****ing Eley!", because there wasn't much left of me after that ordeal. :veryconfu

Looks like you have a pretty nice piece of hardwood under that cheesy black crinkle paint. Might be worth a strip and varnish. Sealing it off properly might or might not help with stability, but it's sure be a lot more pleasing to look at.

Glad you could make to the show, some guys don't get it . All the work has been done and this was my journey through months of different things I tried.

[Harry Tobin]

I enjoy these types of threads as well. They show reality.

The worst are threads of someone declaring they have "found the load" and show a very nice three shot group. It takes a lot of shooting and work to know what you have...or not.

Well hi there Don, me and Charlie was wondering when you would show up. Now I know Charlie had a fun ride with this, he was by my side the entire way. Don't worry you'll see all my crap targets as I work this out.

[dverna]

Well hi there Don, me and Charlie was wondering when you would show up. Now I know Charlie had a fun ride with this, he was by my side the entire way. Don't worry you'll see all my crap targets as I work this out.

Harry, that "bastard" Charlie has made me "waste" a lot of time at the bench. But I love to shoot so it was a good thing. I could not afford good .22 ammunition so went down the PCP rabbit hole. Learned a lot.

Now he has sucked you in too!!!!

I respected Charlie's honesty. Good to see another honest man like you showing us that accuracy is journey with twists and turns.

I have had health issues this year and have not shot nearly as much I wanted.

Too damn cold to do serious shooting in MI for the next few months so decided to get one of new Lee 6000 presses and devoting time to that "journey".

We old farts need projects and goals to keep us from becoming vegetables.

Welcome to the carrot patch. Watch for those rabbit holes!!!!

[BLAHUT]

This is a fun thread and I'm curious to see how the tinkering applies across multiple types of ammo.

One thing I always remember when threads like this come up is that BR-50 died as an organized sport when the participants determined that after they had dialed the rifle in as far as possible, they were ultimately still at the mercy of ammo they couldn't control the manufacture of.

I sent my Department's team to an international match with mid-grade Federal Gold Medal that the sniper team had been using it for low cost practice and for that, it was good enough out of the box. To take it a step farther for their game, I sorted it for them by cartridge weight and rim thickness to get each shooter a batch that was as consistent within itself as possible. They brought back a nice stack of medals that I'd like to think was in part due to my efforts, but I made it clear to them in no uncertain terms, "Next time, you cats are buying ****ing Eley!", because there wasn't much left of me after that ordeal. :veryconfu

Looks like you have a pretty nice piece of hardwood under that cheesy black crinkle paint. Might be worth a strip and varnish. Sealing it off properly might or might not help with stability, but it's sure be a lot more pleasing to look at.

Went down that rabbit hole> Sorting and weighing and using a barrel tuner, YOU are at the mercy of the ammo makers, I shot 4 national Reckords with Aguila gold, next batch might as well used a sling shot, when you find a lot that shoots good for your gun, buy ever round you can find of that lot, then you can start all over again when you use all the good stuff up. A young lady, if I remember right, won a number of national matches with ealy club, her gun loved it. Gota find what your gun likes - don't matter what you like!!

[Harry Tobin]

Curious, is the barrel floating? Just for fun next trip to the yard, take a couple 3x5 cards with you and start shimming front end placing a little upward on pipe. 1, 2, 3 increasing layers and see if so inclined for experiment. Also the quality and level of your craftsmanship is very much noticed and applauded here. I have suffered from Central European genetics my whole life. It will take a while, it will be expensive, it will be heavy and it MUST be aesthetically pleasing which has been a curse and a blessing!

Thanks for your kind words on the craftsmanship, I take my time and give things long thought on how I will do them. In time you'll see what I have done, this was about a 4 month process. It will all unfold as I go on.

[OS OK]

"Thank you for the kind words Don...it's good to be back in an interesting thread full of 'talented & wise old'farts'!"


Harry, that "bastard" Charlie has made me "waste" a lot of time at the bench. But I love to shoot so it was a good thing. I could not afford good .22 ammunition so went down the PCP rabbit hole. Learned a lot.

Now he has sucked you in too!!!!

I respected Charlie's honesty. Good to see another honest man like you showing us that accuracy is journey with twists and turns.

I have had health issues this year and have not shot nearly as much I wanted.

Too damn cold to do serious shooting in MI for the next few months so decided to get one of new Lee 6000 presses and devoting time to that "journey".

We old farts need projects and goals to keep us from becoming vegetables.

Welcome to the carrot patch. Watch for those rabbit holes!!!!

https://i.imgur.com/vrfUDUe.jpg

"Rabbit Holes are where 'revelations' occur! That twisty journey earns one 'empirical wisdom'."


Based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

[Harry Tobin]

PART 6
Now we are going into an area where can produce heated discussion. AND PLEASE DON’T DO THAT!

Now I move onto getting a real barrel tuner, the tuner I had on worked but very hard to control where it was set. I ordered a harrell barrel tuner directly from Harrell, with this you have positive settings throughout the range of it.

Some believe they work and others don’t, I do believe they do work. There is a lot you need to understand of how they work and what they do for you, and if you have ammo that doesn’t have a crazy SD you can tune for it.

Once you learn it you will see a definite pattern and best to use a chronograph along with it. Basically your tuning the harmonics of the barrel so when the faster round goes out it's on a flatter trajectory and moves out faster and straighter, and when a slower round goes out it’ll leave on the up swing of the barrel a higher trajectory resulting in the same impact area. It does take time shooting to find the area you need to work with, but once an area is found you can fine tune to that.

Now all that said and done it was time to head to the bench, I did find areas to work with. The groups are not the prettiest but this is all about the learning process and understanding the tuners role.

Old Tuner
https://i.imgur.com/wTVKwV2.jpg

New Tuner
https://i.imgur.com/e3YXZdb.jpg

You can see groups moving around on this
https://i.imgur.com/eDMPMZY.jpg

[Harry Tobin]

PART 7


Now after doing this for awhile, it was evident that something else was going on. Now Charlie and I both knew there was an issue with the with the rifling at crown. A big quality issue from the factory.


Here’s a picture of that, as you can see, the lands and grooves where deformed.
The quality control was nowhere in sight at Savage on this, this rifle was past on to me and fighting with Savage was out!
https://i.imgur.com/fwiF3Zr.jpg

After careful measuring I needed to take off .250 , I got barrel cutters from Brownells. One for the 90 degree cut and one for the 11 degree target crown, I made my own pilots on the lathe. Started doing it by hand and end up using a cordless drill set a lowest speed with plenty of cutting oil. It turned out really well and took all the bad area out.

https://i.imgur.com/INlrPoD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4sYJbui.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Dds0l0S.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4h05oTT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KKqVKKE.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dgMccHD.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nUJdXJ5.jpg

[OS OK]

Harry...you should have named 'Part 7' . . .

"FIXING A BROKEN SEWER PIPE!" ... :bigsmyl2:

[Harry Tobin]

Harry...you should have named 'Part 7' . . .

"FIXING A BROKEN SEWER PIPE!" ... :bigsmyl2:

Maybe so

[dverna]

I am surprised how well that barrel shot with the muzzle that buggered up.

Nice job on the "sewer pipe"!

[Harry Tobin]

I am surprised how well that barrel shot with the muzzle that buggered up.

Nice job on the "sewer pipe"!

now it's an unclogged sewer pipe (hehe) still more to come

[Harry Tobin]

Part 8 Bench testing re-crowned at the bench


With the barrel re-crowned time to see how it performs with ELEY CLUB ammo this time, on this target you can see how the groups take on a pattern. And that’s what you want to see, but this still seemed a little erratic to me. There is still more I'd like to try on this rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/mbA3sVI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KvelTEL.jpg

[Harry Tobin]

Part 9 Head Space and Ammo

In my last post you saw the target I did with ELEY CLUB, to me the consistency wasn’t there yet. I what to be able to pull groups with this cheap gun no one thought would be possible. So I keep trying to improve its accuracy.

So now I’m moving onto rim thickness of different ammo.
This gun has a sporter chamber that will accommodate any ammo you can buy.
This means it has a large head space.

We'll start with Eley Contact

with rim of .038
https://i.imgur.com/EIJkOip.jpg





Eley Club

with a rim of .038

https://i.imgur.com/ZgO1TBA.jpg

Eley semi-auto .22 benchrest precision

with a rim of .039

https://i.imgur.com/KG7LoNa.jpg


Now we'll move over to some common bulk ammo to see rim thickness


CCI Standard Velocity

with rim of .042

https://i.imgur.com/TYQRJME.jpg

Agulla SuperExtra

with a rim of .041

https://i.imgur.com/vBuP5Wm.jpg


And the last
Norma Tac-22

with a rim of .041

https://i.imgur.com/SvkIQ69.jpg

From this we can see the variation in the rim thickness
And I have tried the CCI at .042 and had no difference in closing the bolt handle, this leads me to believe that they're still more headspace in the bolt

From here I am going to make a bolt shim that does not exist for the gun and tighten the ammo to the breech face

[Harry Tobin]

PART 10 Bolt Shim

No shim 50-60 rounds stuck cases
With Bolt Shim 200 rounds and NO stuck cases, 1st shim lasted 1200 rounds and still usable
With full length tang captured it could not lift up

My project Savage MKII-FVT is moving along. I’m just trying to make this cheap rifle shoot the best it can. Recap, I have bedded the action and cut down the barrel to remove damaged rifling and re-crowned it.

The next thing to address was the loose sporter chamber, this gun was designed to run any ammo which gave it a large head space.

The ELEY ammo I have been using was much thinner rim. The problem I was having was with loose chamber it would get blow-by gases and with loose head space the gases would get past the rim. And bolt had carbon on the face.

The only way to deal with this was to use a bolt shim, easy right. Not so, the design of this bolt wasn’t made to have a shim used the way the bolt was cut. There was an outfit making shims for the MKII. It was triggershims.com and was considered Experimental / Prototype but you could get them. Basically they where a full round shim and you would have to fold the top of the shim down to fit the bolt. They did have a write up on this (after about 30 cycles of the bolt the shim bends back up a little bit, it lasted about 60 rounds the bend became worse and caused the bolt to hang).

This not a good enough option for me! I sat with the bolt apart in front of me for sometime trying to think how I could make this work! Then it dawned on me, on the bottom of the front part of the bolt it had an angled cut that was the bolt stop.


And if I could use the angled cut to my advantage, so I started cutting a shim out of .005 shim stock. Getting the center hole fit first, had to use a step drill to get it close then a Dremel tool with a stone to finish.

https://i.imgur.com/WOLUpZb.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/FIZlIG3.jpg


With that piece made and over sized, I started to make the outside contour round but left it a straight tang where it had to be bend. I left the tang long and when bent down I started cutting it to length. Leaving it as long as possible and fit the tightest under part of the angled cut of the bolt.

https://i.imgur.com/N1THyUx.jpg


Once the bend was made the tang of the shim was wide and that’s when I started to trim that down. This worked really well, a part that you could NOT BUY AND DID NOT EXIST I made from the Thoughts From My Mind.

https://i.imgur.com/J4SOX54.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ePXnmU6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/gtIvQdG.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FUolAwP.jpg

When I reassembled the bolt I applied a thin layer of grease

[OS OK]

Some famous guy around here once said...

"...accuracy is journey with twists and turns."
Don Verna

I think he's right!

[Harry Tobin]

Part 11 Did The Shim Help

As I do these minor changes I see a little more each time. It isn't like one thing was like the magical solution, one thing to remember. I don't know everything but I will try everything is my philosophy.

Now onto the target, I using Eley Club here and that seemed to be a good ammo to work with.
I had a good spot on the tuner to work with, you can see all my setting on the target. I was working with .160 to .157 on the scale

The .160 seemed to be a good setting but I was getting too much barrel movement still, so this is still a work in progress.
Still need to find the answer, so I will continue the search

https://i.imgur.com/Iox3VWb.jpg

[Bigslug]

NICE job on the crown!

While there's certainly more to it than just the case head design, you might look to see if the higher end part numbers of Federal Gold Medal are still using the dimpled case head. As I recall, this was done to stiffen the case to prevent any misalignment of the round in the chamber when the edge of the rim got crushed by the firing pin. Might help out with your big chamber issues.

[Harry Tobin]

NICE job on the crown!

While there's certainly more to it than just the case head design, you might look to see if the higher end part numbers of Federal Gold Medal are still using the dimpled case head. As I recall, this was done to stiffen the case to prevent any misalignment of the round in the chamber when the edge of the rim got crushed by the firing pin. Might help out with your big chamber issues.

Thanks, the bolt shim has resolved my issue and running good now. Right now staying with Eley ammo

[OS OK]

I would imagine that folks are thinking it's the ES & SD of the ammo lot that is causing the open groups but something tazman talked about some time ago sticks in my head...

Tazman said that as little as .005" of barrel movement as the round leaves the muzzle would amount to as much as .375" spread at 50 yards.

I wonder what a spread of 68 fps around that 1067 average fps would amount to in vertical distribution at 50 yards?
I don't have a sophisticated program to find that out.

I have always tried to tighten up all the associated equipment connected to the rifle and shoot off a rock solid bench. That .005" barrel movement can come from almost anywhere, in fact...more movement than that can occur through all this associated equipment & the marksman.

And that's not even mentioning the wind velocity, direction & value.

Bugholes are not the easiest thing to get on a regular basis.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Someone here has the signature line, ''Aim small-Miss small''. I took that line to heart when I got my Weihrauch HW97k .22 air rifle. Once sighted in with an Athlon 4-14 scope and feeling froggy I tested this theory and it worked well for me. Range was 25yds. shooting off a bench at a blank piece of cardboard I used to sight in on. I fired a pellet at an unused portion of the paper, then used the hole as my target. I lost count of how many rounds fired, but it was over 20 to be sure, the group measured with a dial caliper was just under 1/2''

The ''trunk'' of the ''tree'' looking group was the aiming point, first pellet aiming 6 O'clock on the hole. The holes to the right are ''groups'' from a different brand pellet. I shot the ''tree'' group with H&N Field Target Trophy pellets.

307746

[Harry Tobin]

That's real good with an air gun at 25

[Harry Tobin]

Part 12

From some of my targets I’m finally adding up what is going on, now Charlie would always tell me to get the chronograph and get the data.

I did that with my tuner testing and also helped in other areas of figuring out what was going on. Now the ammo did have some spread in velocities BUT once in awhile I’d shoot 2 five shot groups with near the same velocities but with different impact.

That got my mind thinking that there was still barrel movement, I did bed the back of the barrel by the receiver. The rest of the barrel was free floated, now I believe the movement towards the front and the end of the forend.

This has a .800 bull barrel on it, but the quality of the materials was poor. So I was set on bedding the front of the barrel 2 inches in, I used packing tape to line the forend just in case it didn’t work it’d be easy to remove. But still strong enough it could be left if it worked.

What I found out amazed me, I had everything taped out with modeling clay inside for a stop.
The rifle was in my lockable gun stand and very secure.

I was ready to do this, had the wet epoxy it the forend and put the barrel action assembly in and tighten the screws down.



Then I barely touched the tuner with my finger with no pressure, and I saw the wet epoxy flex in and out.
Holy cow this thing was like a wet noodle, and need all the support I could give it.
This thing was moving the entire time giving me inconsistency

https://i.imgur.com/oxbU9nS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/S08TUoH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/I31dSq0.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ji9kgrG.jpg


Time to see if this helped, off to the bench

Here I'm using Eley Club and Eley Contact
now I can see better groupings, may not be the correct tuner setting but seeing better results

https://i.imgur.com/jhXsQPh.jpg

Here I'm using Eley Semi-auto benchrest

https://i.imgur.com/7BbKXvF.jpg

So I'd have to say this really helped things, I have to fine tune my tuner settings to find the best place. But the barrel movement was a big part and all the other stuff along the way needed to be done for the whole rifle to work. Still have a few more things I want to do before I wrap this up

[OS OK]

https://i.imgur.com/RIs6AM5.jpg

:awesome:

[Ithaca Gunner]

That's real good with an air gun at 25

After buying three break barrel guns with little accuracy love, I did what I should have from the start, and bought the HW97k I should have from the beginning. I got lucky and found a used one and saved a little money, Midway had the scope on sale as well as the H&N pellets. I think the scope is powerful enough to try this trick at 50yds also, but I would be happy getting the groups you're getting with your new .22.

[Harry Tobin]

After buying three break barrel guns with little accuracy love, I did what I should have from the start, and bought the HW97k I should have from the beginning. I got lucky and found a used one and saved a little money, Midway had the scope on sale as well as the H&N pellets. I think the scope is powerful enough to try this trick at 50yds also, but I would be happy getting the groups you're getting with your new .22.
I have a RWS break barrel gun I got some 35 years ago, I was fairly impressed with its accuracy. I found the most accurate pellet was the Beeman Silver arrow and that was a .177 I believe yours is a lever activated? Any way have fun with it, I'm happy when I can get 1 hole target once in awhile.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I have a RWS break barrel gun I got some 35 years ago, I was fairly impressed with its accuracy. I found the most accurate pellet was the Beeman Silver arrow and that was a .177 I believe yours is a lever activated? Any way have fun with it, I'm happy when I can get 1 hole target once in awhile.

Yes, under lever. About he same power level as a RWS 34 in the same caliber. A bit slower to load than a break barrel, but very much more accurate. I think the best I ever got with the RWS 34 was just over an inch at the same range and not easily duplicated.

307777

[Harry Tobin]

Grand Finale

Well the last 2 things I want to do here is I want to put a rail on the bottom of the stock for the rear bag. The stock have an angled cut on it now and I want it to run parallel to the barrel for any recoil it will come straight back.

And I’m putting a new scope on it, the one I have now has very thick reticles. I’m putting on a target scope with very fine reticles, the scope I picked out is the Sightron SII 36x42 and it had Japan on it and they have good glass.

To look through this scope is amazing, Midway had it for $399 and free shipping.
The dot on this is super fine, fine enough to take a fly out at 50 yards. Now Charlie has the same sight on his CZ and that’s exactly what he did, he said he had bug guts in the target. When I was looking through this at a target it was almost like cheating I could see so well, that’s what I said to Charlie you had a cheater scope the whole time (he laughed)




New bottom rail parallel to barrel

https://i.imgur.com/s9GrnXR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wHvjbAf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5WAP0El.jpg

and fits rear bag perfect

https://i.imgur.com/lChtraB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FT5PbTz.jpg?1




Got the scope on

https://i.imgur.com/JPFMevh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yKjAS1B.jpg

need to find scope rail to move it back for better eye relief

https://i.imgur.com/yTxCPq1.jpg


Off to the bench

Got a chance to zero the scope, I used Eley Contact for that, to save my good ammo. Then I ran a card, it was cold with a stiff breeze. Not ideal conditions but running out of good days.

https://i.imgur.com/gOW8a54.jpg

It was several days before I could get out again because of the weather.

Shooting season is about done here, winter is setting in, but I had one more chance.

Now just a note about the cold, I have noticed it has a major impact on velocities on the chronograph, and tuning and velocities go hand and hand on performance. So on a colder day I’d have to change my tuner from a good setup from the day before.

Onto the bottom using Eley Club
I left my setting on .164 and could see that was off, reset to.160 a little better. Then to .158 wrong way!
Then starting going up to .161, seemed better and ran 3 spots

Still not good enough so went to .162 and bughole! Then went to very bottom right and everything went away on 2 spots.
So figuring out what went wrong, it was my over shirt I wear in the cold was hanging down and touching the recoil pad, I like to free recoil shoot. Just to show everything matters!

OK 5 rounds left so I stretched over the stock for clearance making sure everything was clear. And that was it was the best group I ever saw at a .155 group size. And .162 proved to be best tuner setting that day

https://i.imgur.com/XDq2G0i.jpg

So all this work paid off on the Savage MKII-FVT that I did.
Wasn’t easy but worth it, THAT’S A WRAP

[OS OK]

I don't know about anyone else watching this thread but ... I am impressed! ...(this last target is CHEAP AFFORDABLE AMMO!) I can't wait for spring so we can see what you do to fine tune it and get some 5 shot 5 group averages. That'll tell us something more about the MKII's consistency after all this work you've done Harry.

I know you & I have talked about all the subtle things that influence group sizes.
For general information I want to show everyone a little something about our front rests.

Seems like the Caldwell Rock is a popular rest for what it is...not expensive but it has a lot of room for improvement for us budget shooters.
Remember what .005" of slop or movement can do to a group at the 50 yard line!

https://i.imgur.com/CfK5abx.jpg

Harry and I have talked about improving the windage adjustment on this rest so that it is a very positive adjustment when changing directions of the windage screw. I know we can tighten/snug up the nut but doing that makes it harder to turn. I want my cake and to eat it too...so I want to come up with a modification that will make the windage adjustment 'smooth & positive in movement, eliminating slop & easy to turn.
I guess it'll be around spring next year before we have something more to say about that.
Hopefully an inexpensive modification that everyone can manage!

Great work & great shooting Harry...but how sorry I am that you discovered the 'CHEATER's SCOPE'! ...:bigsmyl2:

[dverna]

Very interesting. Nice job Harry....or should I say Mr. Tobin.

[Harry Tobin]

Very interesting. Nice job Harry....or should I say Mr. Tobin.

Thanks Don

[Ithaca Gunner]

May I use the term, ''Revolutionary'' in a sense? Know it or not, you've created a .22 rifle version of a Canon de 75 modèle 1897 in a way. I applaud the effort, you're a pioneer for wringing out the most out of affordable .22 ammunition. Are you considering even longer range with it?

[Harry Tobin]

May I use the term, ''Revolutionary'' in a sense? Know it or not, you've created a .22 rifle version of a Canon de 75 modèle 1897 in a way. I applaud the effort, you're a pioneer for wringing out the most out of affordable .22 ammunition. Are you considering even longer range with it?

I'll have to see in the springtime where I go with this, still have not mastered the 50 quite yet. But thank you for your reply

[Bigslug]

Soooo. . .now that you have it zeroed, when are you going jogging through the woods with it, looking for squirrel meat? ;-)

[tazman]

All this experimentation, demonstrates just how much details matter in precision shooting. Both in equipment and technique.
Also, just how much different conditions matter in day to day shooting.
I noticed that temperature changes during the shooting session seemed to have a larger effect on my group size than I would have believed. It is hard to say just how much expansion and contraction changed things. Then you also have the added heat from the round count(barrel warming) to consider.

Your results are very encouraging. Particularly, since I purchased a fairly large quantity of the Eley Club ammo a little while ago.
For me, finding a day with little wind and minimal temperature change over a shooting session is hard to do. Where I live, we have 20-30 degree temperature swings from morning to afternoon.
Wind is always a factor. I just can't seem to get my head wrapped around the changes yet. Still working on it.

[Harry Tobin]

Soooo. . .now that you have it zeroed, when are you going jogging through the woods with it, looking for squirrel meat? ;-)

Oh Lord No with all the add-ons this pulls in at 12lbs, now did have a squirrel that was staying in front of the back stop 1 day. 1 shot to the head at the 50:target_smiley:

[Harry Tobin]

All this experimentation, demonstrates just how much details matter in precision shooting. Both in equipment and technique.
Also, just how much different conditions matter in day to day shooting.
I noticed that temperature changes during the shooting session seemed to have a larger effect on my group size than I would have believed. It is hard to say just how much expansion and contraction changed things. Then you also have the added heat from the round count(barrel warming) to consider.

Your results are very encouraging. Particularly, since I purchased a fairly large quantity of the Eley Club ammo a little while ago.
For me, finding a day with little wind and minimal temperature change over a shooting session is hard to do. Where I live, we have 20-30 degree temperature swings from morning to afternoon.
Wind is always a factor. I just can't seem to get my head wrapped around the changes yet. Still working on it.

Long time taz, I did see major changes in velocity with colder temps. I have been seeing good results with this semi-auto benchrest. The last target I showed the groups were not good with that and it was because of the velocity change with the cold, and I should have re-tuned. One cold day out with this same ammo I had an average of 1056 SD 8 and on a warm day I was getting an
average of 1084 SD 10. That’s 28fps difference, THAT’S A LOT! Anyway good to hear from you taz.

[Bigslug]

A couple things occur to me. . .

Eley's Match and Team rounds are nothing more than rounds that for obscure reasons, didn't make all the inspection cuts to be labeled Tenex. . .probably because the factory seismometer registered a mouse farting in a wall a block away at the instant the bullet was seated or something similar. At any rate, they're a lower cost version of the flat point EPS round that would let you see if those dynamics are worth advancing your project.

They also have a biathlon round touting a "cold weather lube". Now, what else they did to the round to optimize it for cold, I can't say, but given that Hodgdon's temperature insensitive powders have been around at least a couple decades now, it would seem a no-brainer for one of the match ammo companies to be looking into that chemistry. If their factory literature doesn't tell you, your chronograph will. Only downside is you have to plan it out over months.

[OS OK]

All this experimentation, demonstrates just how much details matter in precision shooting. Both in equipment and technique.
Also, just how much different conditions matter in day to day shooting.
I noticed that temperature changes during the shooting session seemed to have a larger effect on my group size than I would have believed. It is hard to say just how much expansion and contraction changed things. Then you also have the added heat from the round count(barrel warming) to consider.

Your results are very encouraging. Particularly, since I purchased a fairly large quantity of the Eley Club ammo a little while ago.
For me, finding a day with little wind and minimal temperature change over a shooting session is hard to do. Where I live, we have 20-30 degree temperature swings from morning to afternoon.
Wind is always a factor. I just can't seem to get my head wrapped around the changes yet. Still working on it.

This is a subject that has had me mulling on it for several years now...
'Temperature changes, expansion, velocity change, barrel temperature, projectile lubriction & on and on...I tell you boys, this is a 'Side Tunnel in a deep Rabbit Hole'.

Using this same rifle, back in February of 2021, I set up an experiment to try to document what the heck is really going on regarding this 'barrel temperature phenomena'...
Why would I do this? ... Because I noticed a very short window in shooting for groups where the groups would behave...If I did anything that delayed my shooting by around 10 minutes, I would see the barrel start to act like it was needing to warm up & season again.
I didn't understand this and think now that I still don't, so...I'll give you the facts I have...

It was a cool day in February around 10:00, plus or minus a few minutes. I try to shoot early when the wind turns around allowing me milder wind...

https://i.imgur.com/sSas8g6.jpg

I set up my multi-meter with a temperature probe and taped the thermocouple directly over the chamber to monitor the barrel temperature from before the time I started to the time I ended up after shooting a 6 target card. The ambient temperature in the shop where I kept the rifle was 68ºƒ, for the short time the rifle was in the sunlight, this is the temperature of the barrel before I started...

https://i.imgur.com/BE0RNud.jpg

After completion of the card, this is the temperature of the barrel, 21 minutes later...

https://i.imgur.com/DDSXPA8.jpg

The total time I shot to complete the card is typical of my pace, at this pace I see the barrel as consistent, I don't get that pattern I see when the barrel is warming & seasoning on the first target top left where the 'warmers' are...you can see the very first shot off at 0300, then they work-in to the group somewhere around the 3'rd or 4'th shot.

https://i.imgur.com/OkTFZ78.jpg

Time and temperature of the barrel is noted at each spot when the spot was completed...all the empirical data is here.

This leaves me questioning whether it is the temperature of the barrel or the 'freshness of the lubrication'?
"Let me explain..."
I suspect but cannot prove it...but I suspect that since there is little temperature increase in the barrel, the big influence on lubrication is the 'freshness' of it's condition between successive shots.
I suspect that at the micro surface level, the surface of the lube changes character with time...that it becomes liken to a scab that has formed on a cut or scrape. I suspect that it looses significant lubricity, thereby... changing the internal ballistics of the round fired and depending on the time lapse between successive shots, it's affect becomes significant.
I can't prove this suspicion scientifically, I just don't have the means or knowledge to attempt the documentation.

In the .22lr cartridge, I don't think there is enough heat generated to significantly affect the temperature of the barrel (especially so with the mass of the bull barrel pulling that heat that is generated away from the chamber & leade and bleeding it off to the adjoining parts of the mass of the barrel and receiver) & especially so in the rate we shoot the .22lr during bench rest type shooting. It's not like we are doing mag dumps with a center-fire where the barrel actually can heat to an extent where it will even glow & smoke to the point it self destructs.

As a side note...here's a couple pictures showing the heat increase in the barrel after the card was finished. I took my gear back to the shop, placed the rifle on the table saw in the sunlit shop as I went and collected the card. Maybe 10 or 15 minutes elapsed while I was measuring groups and marking the card.
This first picture is when I noticed the increase...(keep in mind that the ambient air temperature is around 58ºƒ)

https://i.imgur.com/7egm2cP.jpg

This caught my eye so I continued to watch this.
By the time I had the card all marked up and ready for a picture...perhaps 45 minutes after leaving the bench, this is the heat in the barrel...

https://i.imgur.com/A56vIih.jpg

My suspicion is that direct sunlight & ambient air temperature affect the temperature of the .22lr BR barrel more than does the firing of the rounds themselves.
This is why, after several years now that I suspect what I do regarding the 'freshness' of the lubrication.

My thoughts and conclusions are always & eternally open to what others think, to what others have collected as empirical data. I would be a fool to use my data alone to come up with a conclusion about any subject and this is one of those subjects that have had me 'forever confused'.
What is you guy's opinions?

[Ithaca Gunner]

Speaking of lube, a small bore competitor and gunsmith once advised my brother and myself of it's importance and the difference it can make between brands or labels of the same brand. This gunsmith, Gary Gault of Marysville, PA (Gary made some fine 1,000yd rifles for compitition at the Williamsport range) told us he would find what shot best and buy it by the case, however FINDING what shot could be a chore in itself, a long process and he didn't clean his bore after each type of ammo he tested, BUT he did fire at least ten-twenty shots expecting less than great results to clean any lube from the previous ammo from the bore and start new with what he was shooting for score. He believed the lube could have an effect on accuracy and to get a true group of a new type, the old lube in the barrel had to be shot out first.

I've never gotten to that point myself with .22lr accuracy, but it might be something to consider.

[Harry Tobin]

Thing that’s got my wondering is the day I got that low velocity at 43̊ I had the ammo on the bench the whole time. Next day it was 46̊ but kept ammo in my shirt pocket and pulled five at a time to shoot, then my velocity was normal. The other thing about this Semi-Auto benchrest ammo is it’s listed with paraffin as a lube but like a liquid film on it and it gets on your fingers when handling them. It’s not like the hard paraffin like I see on the Club or Contact. Or is it more about the primer and powder and not so much the barrel? Or the lube?

[Harry Tobin]

Speaking of lube, a small bore competitor and gunsmith once advised my brother and myself of it's importance and the difference it can make between brands or labels of the same brand. This gunsmith, Gary Gault of Marysville, PA (Gary made some fine 1,000yd rifles for compitition at the Williamsport range) told us he would find what shot best and buy it by the case, however FINDING what shot could be a chore in itself, a long process and he didn't clean his bore after each type of ammo he tested, BUT he did fire at least ten-twenty shots expecting less than great results to clean any lube from the previous ammo from the bore and start new with what he was shooting for score. He believed the lube could have an effect on accuracy and to get a true group of a new type, the old lube in the barrel had to be shot out first.

I've never gotten to that point myself with .22lr accuracy, but it might be something to consider.

Off subject: funny you brought up Williamsport PA, that’s my wonderful wife was born 70 years ago. It’s a small world

[tazman]

Ithaca Gunner---Several times, I have taken my cleaning equipment with me and cleaned the barrel between ammo tests to see if it makes any difference. My answer was, it does make a difference but not always the way you might think. Usually, you still need to shoot 10-20 rounds to "season" the barrel before you get consistent results. I have tried the method of just shooting 20 rounds without cleaning and it seems to work about the same as cleaning the barrel. I just like to work from a known quantity(a clean barrel) to start with, to eliminate possible unknown variables.

OS OK---- The shooting area I use is shaded with a good roof over the benches. Walls on three sides. The wind doesn't hit the shooter but since the shooting lane is a 200 yard slot between tall trees, the wind comes in over the trees and from either end of the lane and swirls around. The direction appears to change suddenly and without any real notice as you shoot. What the wind is doing now may well be different in 30 seconds. It may even change while you are squeezing off your shot. Absolute calm days are rare. his spring I managed to find two of them and shot the only perfect scores I have managed to this point.
Usually the temps run from around 70F to 90F with the temp increasing during the morning hours until mid afternoon. If I start in the afternoon, the temp shift is decreased. I only have to deal with about a 5-10 degree change.
My rifle is stored in a safe in my basement. It goes into a case there and travels to the range. When I take it out, it is still cold enough to form condensation on the barrel and scope lenses until it warms up. I have to stand them in a corner with the bolts out until the moisture clears up. I am not certain they are ever at ambient temps when I am shooting and have no means of testing that anyway.
In any case, I have noticed that I need about 15 shots for the rifle and ammo to stabilize before I can trust the groups to be consistent. I still get wandering groups over the course of a long string of shots. I believe it is due to interior temp and/or lube changes while the barrel is heating up. I hate to think the relatively small changes in temp are causing this but that is what I believe. In any case, there is little or nothing I can do about that in any case.

Harry Tobin--- A year or two ago, in another thread, I tested my ammo in several different rifles over my chronograph and posted the results. I remember very inconsistent results as far as velocity, rifle to rifle. Usually the ammo was consistent in the same rifle but would be quite different in another rifle. Usually, the better(more expensive) the ammo, the better the numbers were. There were a few cases where Eley match would outshoot Eley Tenex or any of the other high end brands. Apparently, just something about that particular lot of ammo.
Unfortunately, the best ballistic numbers didn't always translate into the best groups.
Oddly, the lube that was used on the different brands of ammo didn't seem the make any of the different lots particularly more accurate. The bullet shape and speed seemed to make a greater difference than the lube. As you might expect, different rifles preferred different brands and lots of ammo. This caused me to reconsider the concept of having too many rifles to customized ammo supply for.
I haven't done any testing in colder weather with my chronograph. I have found that one of my rifles shot better in cooler temps than it did in warm weather. No idea why.

My biggest help in consistency has been to check the action screw torque settings. The temp change from going inside to outside and back again loosens the screws a bit. Now, when I finish shooting for the day, I loosen the screws slightly before I store it and re-torque them at the range before each session. My rifle has aluminum pillars for the screws to seat against.
Proper torque settings, a clean barrel, and good ammunition have been the best habits that work for me.
The wind conditions and temperature are just luck of the draw.

[dverna]

Twists and turns...twists and turns...

It is a circuitous path.

Charlie, the "freshness of lube" might be an interesting theory. I wonder if it could be investigated by shooting each shot in successive groups within a time limit. PM coming.

The first test with 5 groups shot with 30 seconds between shots. (25 rds)
A second series of 5 groups shot with 2 minutes between shoots. (25 rds)
A third series of 5 groups with 5 minutes between shots. (25 rds)
Lastly, a series of 5 groups with each shot at a different interval. Say, 30 seconds between shot 1 and 2, one minute between shots 2 and 3, two minutes between shots 3 and 4, and five minutes between shots 4 and 5. (25 rds)

It would be a long and laborious process. Ideally done on a calm day so wind effects are not muddying things up.

It would be interesting to track group size and also POI.

The challenge is finding small differences requires a lot of groups. That is not only boring but gets expensive. The test above would require 20 five shot groups and it should be repeated at least once...so 200 rounds.

[OS OK]

Twists and turns...twists and turns...

It is a circuitous path.

Charlie, the "freshness of lube" might be an interesting theory. I wonder if it could be investigated by shooting each shot in successive groups within a time limit. PM coming.

The first test with 5 groups shot with 30 seconds between shots. (25 rds)
A second series of 5 groups shot with 2 minutes between shoots. (25 rds)
A third series of 5 groups with 5 minutes between shots. (25 rds)
Lastly, a series of 5 groups with each shot at a different interval. Say, 30 seconds between shot 1 and 2, one minute between shots 2 and 3, two minutes between shots 3 and 4, and five minutes between shots 4 and 5. (25 rds)

It would be a long and laborious process. Ideally done on a calm day so wind effects are not muddying things up.

It would be interesting to track group size and also POI.

The challenge is finding small differences requires a lot of groups. That is not only boring but gets expensive. The test above would require 20 five shot groups and it should be repeated at least once...so 200 rounds.

Don I think that is an excellent experiment and would be very happy to do it with ONE CAVEAT...
"We will have to wait until about March 2023 because that time of year begins about a 3 or 4 month period where I have an early morning calm for about 1 to 2 hours where the cold night 'air/wind' stops coming 'down' (actually it is sinking air) from the Sierras above me flowing into the Sacramento Valley 40 miles below me. I am at 2,250'ASL so I'm right about in the lower middle of that flow. It is usually coming from the NNE and flowing to the SSW following the ridge lines of the Sierra Mountains...I live on a ridge.
When the wind turns around, it's usually around 10:00am (morning sun warming the Valley up) and that air is the warm/hot air that heats up in the valley and rises to the Sierras behind me, that stops just after sundown and reverses again overnight and starts the cycle all over again in the morning."

https://i.imgur.com/F7Kwe3x.jpg

[[[tazman When the wind blows you can see all the trees and the house where the wind gets COMPLICATED! I consider myself a 'Lucky Duck' getting 1/2 & 3/4 MOA 100 yard groups this time of year. Getting a reliable zero or a good tune is near impossible.]]]

That 'usual flow' is most often a full value but can switch to 1/4 value if there's another moving weather system over in Nevada on my east or out in the Pacific to my west. This is the only time of year I can get reliable zeros and tuner tunes.
I have 4 bricks of Eley Match that I just got in and is ready to tune, in fact it is waiting either for a miracle or next March...prolly March!

So yes...I would be happy to do that experiment. I got your PM and thank you for your gracious offer but it is not necessary. The empiricle data we get from this may be pretty significant.
You know I love gathering data, I can't think of a better way to practice. I recon you could call it 'Multi Purpose Practice'.

So Don...we can fine tune the testing criteria in the months to come and generate a new thread to post it in, however it may take several days to complete each test but time is one thing we have :bigsmyl2:...charlie

[Ithaca Gunner]

I used to think the same way, Tazman. Gary reminded me of the trouble of cleaning lube, (wax) out of a bore and convinced me the risk of bore wear with a cleaning rod wasn't worth it.

Now I just thought of Paco Kelly and his accurizer tool for .22lr ammunition. I never tried one, but heard good things about them. Just a thought.

[tazman]

Quote---The challenge is finding small differences requires a lot of groups. That is not only boring but gets expensive. The test above would require 20 five shot groups and it should be repeated at least once...so 200 rounds.

That would take nearly eight hours total. I added up the times. 4 hours for each test set of 100 rounds. $60-100 in ammo cost, depending on which ammo, and a lot of time.
The results would be interesting for sure.

One of the contests that I have participated in requires that all targets(25 rounds for score and however many sighters you wish) be shot in 20 minutes.
I am not certain there is a practical application for this test for my use other than the knowledge itself.

[dverna]

Guys, I almost did not post the proposed test. I think it may be valuable but I hate people suggesting things and are too lazy to do the work. I do not want to be in that crowd.

But I do not have a good enough .22 LR to do a meaningful test. I shared this with Charlie plus offered to pay part of the cost. And I am not sure I can shoot as well as either Charlie or Harry have shown us. Plus Charlie has a good baseline of loads and tuner settings that perform.

Charlie’s theory may be a rabbit hole but the only way to know is to test it. What if there is a big fat cottontail down there? LOL

Both Charlie and Harry have the right mind set to do this kind of investigation. I will let them wrestle with who should try it, if it seems worth doing.

[OS OK]

TAZMAN...I think(?) that Don has derived this test to find out whether or not my suspicion about the lube has any merit.

I suspect but cannot prove it...but I suspect that since there is little temperature increase in the barrel, the big influence on lubrication is the 'freshness' of it's condition between successive shots.
I suspect that at the micro surface level, the surface of the lube changes character with time...that it becomes liken to a scab that has formed on a cut or scrape. I suspect that it looses significant lubricity in a short amount of time lapsed, thereby... changing the internal ballistics of the round fired and depending on the time lapse between successive shots, it's affect becomes more & more significant.

What you said just now...[One of the contests that I have participated in requires that all targets (25 rounds for score and however many sighters you wish) be shot in 20 minutes.] ...leads me to believe that just maybe the Pros know something about the lube that they do not share. That may be the fact that for the best accuracy they need to keep that lube 'fresh' in regards to time that it sits there in the bore between successive shots.

That lube is subjected to 2.5 ~ 3Kºƒ from the flame chasing the projectile. In my thinking...that high temperature may have a huge influence on the physical characteristics of the lube once the projectile clears the bore and fresh air/oxygen is able to flood the barrel and starts to form that 'scab effect' I mentioned earlier. That alone may put a 'life span' on the time that lube stays in there with a high lubricity factor.
If my suspicions are somewhere in the ballpark that could be one of the reasons for having unlimited sighters during the shooting for tight groups.

Those Boys have a sea of wind-indicators in front of them and I think those indicators are a primary factor in how fast they are able shoot their groups. These guys have amazing patience and timing in waiting on a specific wind condition to repeat, all depending on the contest day and overall conditions during the tournament. Quite often conditions at the range are so variable you have to try to 'pick & shoot' the same condition for the optimum groups.
Should it take longer between shots for them to wait & shoot the same condition as the shot before...'they just might light off a 'sighter' to refresh the lube'.
These things I don't know for certain as I do not compete.

Like I said earlier, I've mulled on this for a long time now and my thinking & reasoning keeps driving me to suspect the 'freshness' & 'life-span' of the lube may be a big factor if they expect to get maximum performance & consistency from that lube.

Sometimes I think that I may have been in this .22lr BR Rabbit Hole too long now? ...:bigsmyl2:...I might be having brain'farts in my Golden Years?

Does that make any sense to you?

PS DON...heheee, you posted when I was writing mine. Please don't let it worry you about the cost or who does the testing. This is where we collectively learn something and that to me is profitable for all, we learn what does and what don't.

[Harry Tobin]

Guys, I almost did not post the proposed test. I think it may be valuable but I hate people suggesting things and are too lazy to do the work. I do not want to be in that crowd.

But I do not have a good enough .22 LR to do a meaningful test. I shared this with Charlie plus offered to pay part of the cost. And I am not sure I can shoot as well as either Charlie or Harry have shown us. Plus Charlie has a good baseline of loads and tuner settings that perform.

Charlie’s theory may be a rabbit hole but the only way to know is to test it. What if there is a big fat cottontail down there? LOL

Both Charlie and Harry have the right mind set to do this kind of investigation. I will let them wrestle with who should try it, if it seems worth doing.

Don I am honored you mentioned my name for this, I do have the mind set but I am still at the beginning of mastering the skill. Charlie is a machine and can repeatedly do the same thing every time. I have taken my bench down for the winter, just getting to hard with arthritis in hands with the cold here now. I’ll continue in the springtime.

[Gtek]

All this talk of the possible lube variables, what about dipping a batch in some thinned Alox?

[tazman]

OS OK---- The competition is timed because they want to shoot several passes in a single day. Some of those bench rest shooters are so patient that they would wait as long as needed for conditions to match, including barrel temps and wind. They would only finish maybe one pass during a day.
They shoot three passes that are registered for each equipment category. Each category shoots together so the conditions are the same for everyone in that category. Someone can't complain that the wind suddenly came up during their run when it was calm for everyone else.

Some of those rigs are worth thousands of dollars. That is why I stick to the limited factory class. Not as much money involved.

GTEK== Interesting idea. I wonder how much testing the ammo companies do making sure their lubes work well. I know they spend lots of time working with bullet shapes and sizes. I never heard any reports on whether a particular lube is inherently more accurate than another except on this site. 22rimfire ammunition is made with cast boolits after all.
I do know some of the manufacturers us a mixture of beeswax and something else. Alox has a similar formula.

[OS OK]

OS OK---- The competition is timed because they want to shoot several passes in a single day. Some of those bench rest shooters are so patient that they would wait as long as needed for conditions to match, including barrel temps and wind. They would only finish maybe one pass during a day.
They shoot three passes that are registered for each equipment category. Each category shoots together so the conditions are the same for everyone in that category. Someone can't complain that the wind suddenly came up during their run when it was calm for everyone else.

Some of those rigs are worth thousands of dollars. That is why I stick to the limited factory class. Not as much money involved.

GTEK== Interesting idea. I wonder how much testing the ammo companies do making sure their lubes work well. I know they spend lots of time working with bullet shapes and sizes. I never heard any reports on whether a particular lube is inherently more accurate than another except on this site. 22rimfire ammunition is made with cast boolits after all.
I do know some of the manufacturers us a mixture of beeswax and something else. Alox has a similar formula.

I guess that everyone loves a calm day for shooting and it's absolutely needed for getting a Zero or Tuning a new lot of ammo but I get the most pleasure shooting in variable wind up to about 4mph....no, actually 3 mph, 4 I haven't been able to cope with yet.
I like reading my flags & my one windicator vane, making my call based on where I think it would be deflected to and then making an aim-point out on an outer ring somewhere and actually getting some decent groups.
All I shoot now is the 100 yard bench, it's a real test of ability and rifle.
Over on 22Rimfire (?) I think is the name, one of the fellas there claim that when you go from 50 to 100 yards you can realistically expect your groups to open up by a factor of 3X.
Of course, I didn't believe that but after building my 100 yd. bench I can honestly say it's about 90% true.
Give that wind an extra 50 yards to mess with your trajectory and it is mind numbing at times, especially with a complicated range with trees and such causing back currents and wind eddys.

[Bigslug]

Brass variability, bullet variability, alloy variability, lube variability, rifle variability, temperature variability, weather variability, rate of fire variability. . .

"John. . .the kind of control you're attempting simply is. . .it's not possible" - Dr. Ian Malcolm (Jeff Goldblum) - Jurassic Park:mrgreen:

The things we learn from these exercises ARE highly valuable, however, I would suggest - for our own sanity - that we keep a second, cheap beater .22 next to the bench and a row of water bottles alongside the "record" target for those moments when the rotor wash from our propeller beanies starts to cloud our "visibility". :drinks:

[OS OK]

Where the timid & faint of heart dare not tread...

https://i.imgur.com/ZDjmvG2.jpg[/CENTER]

[Harry Tobin]

Anyone?


I’m still curious why the Tenex bullet shape is better than say a round nose profile for accuracy. I understand the hollow point theory when it has a bubble of air trapped at the tip and air on air has less friction and possibly better accuracy?

[OS OK]

The only article I could find is this one from this link > http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/22LR-projectile.htm ...although I'm not sure I understand what they're saying?

22LR PROJECTILE

The .22 Long Rifle rimfire cartridge was (probably) developed by the J Stevens Arms and Tool Company in the United States and introduced in 1887. It is probably the most widely used small game and varmint cartridge in the world and is certainly the most popular target cartridge of all time. Annual worldwide production of the .22LR cartridge runs into the billions!

https://i.imgur.com/ZvvmBAo.jpg

This popularity and widespread use justifies a section of this program devoted to this bullet alone. The standard diameter of 0.222" and standard weight of 40 grains are fixed and cannot be changed. However, you can vary the muzzle velocity and choose a zero range and a custom range.

In the late 1980's Robert L. McCoy performed a comprehensive set of ballistic measurements on the .22LR bullet at the Aberdeen Proving Ground (Memorandum Report BRL-MR-3877, November 1990). This program uses a third order polynomial drag function to fit McCoy's data for Eley Tenex between 960 and 1050 ft/sec. For velocities less than 960 ft/sec., drag is assumed to vary as the square of the velocity, with a drag coefficient of 0.24.

For velocities above 1050 ft/sec., McCoy did experiments at slightly higher velocities using a projectile having an Eley Tenex shape. The drag for this projectile was slightly higher than the Eley Tenex bullet due it being made of harder lead and so the sharp corner junction from the ogive to the cylindrical part of the bullet did not 'slump' to a smoother shape in the way the soft leaded bullet did. However, a straight line function having the same slope as this data is extrapolated from the Eley Tenex data at 1050 ft/sec. and is assumed to be valid up to 1100 ft/sec. or Mach 1. The various drag functions are as follows:

Drag equation

https://i.imgur.com/Zp42eyO.jpg



"OOP's, Posted too soon" .... just came across this (too large to reprint so I'll just add the link). THIS LOOKS TO BE THE ANSWER YOU WANT HARRY...

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4517898A/en

FROM THE ARTICLE JUST POSTED...THIS MAY SUM IT UP?

The projectile of this invention relies, for its construction, in the utilization of three factors, that is, (1) the in-bore yaw, the angle between the geometric axis of the projectile and the bore axis; (2) the first maximum yaw, the maximum misalignment between the projectile axis and the nominal trajectory; and (3) the damping characteristics, the aerodynamic and mass properties which reduce this yaw in flight. By the proper analysis of these factors it has been determined that in order to make a highly accurate projectile for small arms, the cylindrical body portion of the projectile must be as long as practical while the entire projectile length must be as short and stubby as practical. This configuration is designed with an additional factor of importance being that the center of pressure (drag) of the projectile must be as far forward of the center of gravity as possible. This is accomplished by a nose being in the shape of a truncated cone, that is having a flat front. A truncated cone is used for simplicity, however, any reasonably smooth transition between the flat nose and cylindrical body will suffice. A high drag coefficient is beneficial, especially if it acts well forward.

[Harry Tobin]

The only article I could find is this one from this link > http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/22LR-projectile.htm ...although I'm not sure I understand what they're saying?

22LR PROJECTILE

The .22 Long Rifle rimfire cartridge was (probably) developed by the J Stevens Arms and Tool Company in the United States and introduced in 1887. It is probably the most widely used small game and varmint cartridge in the world and is certainly the most popular target cartridge of all time. Annual worldwide production of the .22LR cartridge runs into the billions!

https://i.imgur.com/ZvvmBAo.jpg

This popularity and widespread use justifies a section of this program devoted to this bullet alone. The standard diameter of 0.222" and standard weight of 40 grains are fixed and cannot be changed. However, you can vary the muzzle velocity and choose a zero range and a custom range.

In the late 1980's Robert L. McCoy performed a comprehensive set of ballistic measurements on the .22LR bullet at the Aberdeen Proving Ground (Memorandum Report BRL-MR-3877, November 1990). This program uses a third order polynomial drag function to fit McCoy's data for Eley Tenex between 960 and 1050 ft/sec. For velocities less than 960 ft/sec., drag is assumed to vary as the square of the velocity, with a drag coefficient of 0.24.

For velocities above 1050 ft/sec., McCoy did experiments at slightly higher velocities using a projectile having an Eley Tenex shape. The drag for this projectile was slightly higher than the Eley Tenex bullet due it being made of harder lead and so the sharp corner junction from the ogive to the cylindrical part of the bullet did not 'slump' to a smoother shape in the way the soft leaded bullet did. However, a straight line function having the same slope as this data is extrapolated from the Eley Tenex data at 1050 ft/sec. and is assumed to be valid up to 1100 ft/sec. or Mach 1. The various drag functions are as follows:

Drag equation

https://i.imgur.com/Zp42eyO.jpg



"OOP's, Posted too soon" .... just came across this (too large to reprint so I'll just add the link). THIS LOOKS TO BE THE ANSWER YOU WANT HARRY...

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4517898A/en

FROM THE ARTICLE JUST POSTED...THIS MAY SUM IT UP?

The projectile of this invention relies, for its construction, in the utilization of three factors, that is, (1) the in-bore yaw, the angle between the geometric axis of the projectile and the bore axis; (2) the first maximum yaw, the maximum misalignment between the projectile axis and the nominal trajectory; and (3) the damping characteristics, the aerodynamic and mass properties which reduce this yaw in flight. By the proper analysis of these factors it has been determined that in order to make a highly accurate projectile for small arms, the cylindrical body portion of the projectile must be as long as practical while the entire projectile length must be as short and stubby as practical. This configuration is designed with an additional factor of importance being that the center of pressure (drag) of the projectile must be as far forward of the center of gravity as possible. This is accomplished by a nose being in the shape of a truncated cone, that is having a flat front. A truncated cone is used for simplicity, however, any reasonably smooth transition between the flat nose and cylindrical body will suffice. A high drag coefficient is beneficial, especially if it acts well forward.

Thanks Charlie, so what I get from this if you’re running a Tenex style at 1080 you’re close to the limits of that design?

[OS OK]

Thanks Charlie, so what I get from this if you’re running a Tenex style at 1080 you’re close to the (SPEED) limits of that design?

Yup...Mach 1 is tops but I'd rather be under that if I had my rathers.
I order the Eley Match @1055fps but it comes out of my match chamber at 1080fps avg. ...oh well, that's what I'm stuck with but it works pretty good.

@Don & tazman...The timing of that first test had me a little concerned so I ordered another 5 round magazine. I can get my brother to load for me so I can make a target change within that 30 second shooting pace timing.
Since the weather has oficially gone to bunkers out here, I think I'll search around and see if I can find an indoor 100 yard range so I can get some tuning done and have some exact zero scope settings that aren't influenced at all by the wind. This would be a good winter task to do, if I can find such an animal?

[tazman]

Back when I still had five target grade 22 rifles, I ran some tests over the chronograph with Eley ammunition and a couple of other brands of "match" ammo. The velocities were different in each rifle.
That said, they weren't much different from each other in the rifles that did not have MATCH chambers. They were also very near the advertised velocity for the various lots as listed on the Eley box and web site.
The two rifles I own that have MATCH chambers always get substantially higher velocities than the other rifles. Both these rifles are CZ and have similar length barrels.
My tests indicated the match chamber fitted the case tightly and pushed the bullet into the rifling such that the lands engraved the sides of the bullet.
I suspect these two factors increase the pressure inside the chamber at firing causing the extra velocity.

If my chronograph is to be believed, The extra velocity was enough to cause the bullets to leave the barrel slightly faster than the speed of sound which tends to be a sub optimal condition for 22lr ammunition.
In any case, these two rifles nearly always shoot better groups across all brands and lots of ammunition than the other rifles did. I expect this is due to the match chamber and the possible extra quality of the bore. Occasionally, a single lot would shoot outstanding in one of the other rifles but you could not count on that happening.
The two match rifles I have are slightly more accurate with the great majority of ammunition I have tested and can be counted on to do well with top level "match" ammunition. They are simply more consistent.
In the testing I have done(at 50 yards) The fact that the ammo is running a little fast, doesn't seem to matter as far as accuracy is concerned. I think the issues would arise at longer distances. Definitely by 100 yards. I have not run tests at that distance(yet). There would be more time for instability and inconsistency to cause issues.
It will be interesting to see how much, if any, this changes with long term use and the associated wear on the chamber and barrel. I already have thousands of rounds through these rifles with no apparent change in accuracy.

Decades ago, we had a rifle range in the area that had a 100 yard indoor setup where centerfire rifles could be used. That would have been great for us during the winter. Unfortunately, it no longer exists.

Concerning calculating the differences of bullet drop at various distances with different nose shapes. Hornady has a ballistic calculator on their web site where you can plug in the different numbers for your ammunition with different ballistic coefficients for the bullets and get the drop information printed out at various distances. I used it a couple of times with both centerfire and rimfire numbers and found it to be very accurate.
Here is a link.
https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/

[OS OK]

I agree tazman...

Having the round engrave in the lands does a couple of things:
*it aligns the centerline of the bore and the centerline of the projectile perfectly and prevents yaw in the bore...
*it holds the projectile in the case just a few microseconds longer allowing the powder to ignite and get a good burn going before there's enough pressure to shove it out of the case into the rifling. I think that does much to improve the ES & SD's when your sampling larger strings of shots.

https://i.imgur.com/wRUXKdt.jpg

I wish some gunsmith could trim the rear of Harry's chamber and re-seat that tapered barrel so he could make an improved chamber in his rifle. That may seem like a 1/2 measure but it would at least hold the rounds on centerline to the bore.

[Harry Tobin]

.................................................. ...............TRIGGER JERK....................
Now with all this talk about accuracy, this all falls back to the jerk behind the trigger (ME AT TIMES). You need to be the machine that does the same thing EVERY SINGLE TIME! As I look through my targets I see moments of brilliance and then flat on my face, it was hard with the cold weather with heavy clothes hanging down. And the fact that ammo acted differently in the cold weather. And did find that as groups that started out well then went away, had to look at what just happened. Saw what I did wrong and corrected it and did a .153" personal best. Need to keep all that in my head for the spring, Charlie on the other hand is a machine all the time!

[Bigslug]

Having the round engrave in the lands does a couple of things:
*it aligns the centerline of the bore and the centerline of the projectile perfectly and prevents yaw in the bore...

. . .I wish some gunsmith could trim the rear of Harry's chamber and re-seat that tapered barrel so he could make an improved chamber in his rifle. That may seem like a 1/2 measure but it would at least hold the rounds on centerline to the bore.

I think if Harry's working on shims to tighten the headspace, that MIGHT at least solve part of the issue.

Rolling back around to my earlier mention of the dimple in the case head of the top end Federal ammo. . .my understanding is that it's done to prevent cartridge misalignment as the rim is crushed on one side by the firing pin. A tight throat that locks on to the bullet would also serve in this task, and dialing the headspace down to nothing would reduce the potential wiggle room.

I know there are a few .22's out there that crush the case rim in two spots for reliable ignition, but I wonder if symmetrical strikes would help accuracy.

[Bigslug]

.................................................. ...............TRIGGER JERK....................
Now with all this talk about accuracy, this all falls back to the jerk behind the trigger (ME AT TIMES). You need to be the machine that does the same thing EVERY SINGLE TIME!

We have a Ransom forensic firing fixture at work that we use for test firing evidence guns that are too scary to do by hand, and it uses a bicycle brake lever and cable to fire the trigger remotely. Given that this has become more about the science of the ammo and gun, it might be worth considering something similar to take even more of the "meat actuator" out of the equation.

[OS OK]

I think if Harry's working on shims to tighten the headspace, that MIGHT at least solve part of the issue.

Rolling back around to my earlier mention of the dimple in the case head of the top end Federal ammo. . .my understanding is that it's done to prevent cartridge misalignment as the rim is crushed on one side by the firing pin. A tight throat that locks on to the bullet would also serve in this task, and dialing the headspace down to nothing would reduce the potential wiggle room.

I know there are a few .22's out there that crush the case rim in two spots for reliable ignition, but I wonder if symmetrical strikes would help accuracy.

This is the first I ever heard of such a bolt/striker designed that way. It sure as heck makes sense.

[tazman]

Quote--"I know there are a few .22's out there that crush the case rim in two spots for reliable ignition, but I wonder if symmetrical strikes would help accuracy."
I did not know abut that. I would be interested to know who builds/built that action. Maybe even a link or some pictures.

Bigslug-- I remember seeing a clamp on trigger actuator that resembles a remote camera shutter release. It had a flexible cable with a push button that pushed a wire against the trigger face. Took the shake and the jerk out of the trigger movement.Somebody probably still makes that thing. Unfortunately, it would be illegal in the style I am trying to shoot. Trigger must be activated by a finger.

Details, details, details. Would still be a good thing to try out. I could find out if my trigger pull is as good as I like to pretend it is.

[Harry Tobin]

I think if Harry's working on shims to tighten the headspace, that MIGHT at least solve part of the issue.

Rolling back around to my earlier mention of the dimple in the case head of the top end Federal ammo. . .my understanding is that it's done to prevent cartridge misalignment as the rim is crushed on one side by the firing pin. A tight throat that locks on to the bullet would also serve in this task, and dialing the headspace down to nothing would reduce the potential wiggle room.

I know there are a few .22's out there that crush the case rim in two spots for reliable ignition, but I wonder if symmetrical strikes would help accuracy.

As far as the bolt shim goes, it works well. I do believe that does increase the pressure with a tighter headspace. As far as I know I’m the only one that has a durable shim for a MKII. It works so well, before the shim 50-60 rounds I would have failure to extract from carbon buildup. With bolt shim, I have shot 100 round early in the day and 100 later in the day without cleaning the chamber. So 200 rounds with no problem, cleaning the chamber with very little carbon buildup.
The bolt face is clean now after firing, I think with the better seal the case expanded better under pressure making a better seal. Plus holding the round tight to the breech face.

[Bigslug]

I could find out if my trigger pull is as good as I like to pretend it is.

I truthfully think that an actuator needs to be on Harry's list. My match grade .22 ammo pretty much sits on a shelf waiting for me to take out the heavy barrels and Unertls again. Mostly what I do now is offhand unsupported practice for field conditions on dog food cans and drinking water bottles to 100 yards, and for this, I'm bringing more human error to the party than you'll find in a box of Blazers or Golden Bullets - so that's usually what I shoot.

And really for Rabbit Hole Ballistics, at the level you're playing at, the meat interface is still the weakest link. Having gone to the trouble of barrel tuning and attaching temperature probes, to botch the shot release due to cheek pressure, fuzzing eyeball, or wearing too thick a T-shirt that day seems to go against the nature of the game. Probably save money - and certainly time - in the long run by eliminating the shots where it was the driver that failed. This would have the major advantage of freeing up your brain for shot setup and watching the conditions. If you've ever run a Sharps rifle (complicated) with a set trigger and an external adjustment scope you have to pull back (extra complicated), you'll have something of an appreciation for drowning in the steps of your operations and wishing to simplify.

Not sure what the best buttstock interface would be for such a method. Maybe drill a cross-hole through the stock for a pintle mount on some kind of bearing that rotates as you adjust elevation on your T&E? I don't think you'd need silicone or spring shock dampening on a .22, but we are dealing with extremes here.

[OS OK]

One big improvement for me was to remove my arm/hand contact from the pistol grip of the rifle.
I use a couple shot bags partially full of sand for my elbow support and now use a 'trigger pinch' method. Works like a charm with my 8 ounce trigger.

https://i.imgur.com/YJv8236.jpg

There's a combination of a little pressure from the thumb on the back of the trigger guard to steady the sight picture, then when I'm good with the wind and good with the POA - it's a tiny pressure on the trigger...slow-steady & bang, she's gone.
My shoulder never puts any pressure on the butt of the stock although my shoulder feels the 'presence' of the butt. The thickest clothing I will wear is my hoodie over a t-shirt, if I go thick like a jacket, I'm screwing up.

[OS OK]

I hope this thread hasn't died!
There's so much more to talk about in this Precision Shooting thread...

[Bigslug]

I hope this thread hasn't died!
There's so much more to talk about in this Precision Shooting thread...

Speaking of "Precision Shooting". . .something that I'm dredging out of my memories of the old Precision Shooting Magazine that may prove illustrative. . .

I believe it was Middleton Tompkins captaining the U.S. Palma team when the big match was held in South Africa, who hit on the idea of weighing the loaded cartridges. The deal with Palma was that the host country provided the .308 Winchester ammo, and it was loaded with 155 grain Sierra Match Kings, but the individual shooter had no more control over the rounds than that - - Until Mid started weighing them and sorting them into batches for his team members. As I recall, butt was thoroughly kicked.

This no more than a bigger version of what we get to contend with on .22LR ammo that we aren't loading ourselves, and it was what inspired me to do the same for my Department's smallbore team. I didn't have the time or ability to do any testing - I just made sure that shooter 1 got all the .038-.039" headspaced rounds that weighed 49 to 50 grains and so on. Given the time available, and the cats to herd, it was the most control I could exercise. As I was stacking the rounds, they did form a literal representation of a "bell curve" on the table, but figuring out how each batch differed in velocity and grouping in a given rifle was beyond our resources at the time.

Harry seems to have a solid handle on headspace and how it affects performance in his rifle. Given that rim thickness and cartridge weight are probably the two easiest (ummm yeah. . .easy ;)) things we can check, it might be a worthwhile effort to shoot groups and chrono samplings with rounds in which the rims are the same, across batches of different weights; and also groups where the weights are the same, but the rims vary.

Weight obviously can be variation in case thickness, powder charge, consistent amount of primer, bullet mass or even lube globs - or varying combinations of them all. Rim thickness probably has an effect on cartridge alignment, chamber sealing, and quite possibly lock time.

What I hope this would tell us is to what degree each method of sorting yields results. If it's know that (for example) a .040" rim gives good results in Harry's rifle, it would be interesting to see if cartridge weight variation with that rim thickness changes either group size or location.

[OS OK]

I have spent some time with that rifle Harry has back when it was new and running 'peep & globe' for sights and working the 50 yard bench. I was new to this BR game and was open to any suggestions the boys had regarding accuracy. That whole story is in a thread I started some time ago New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411925-New-to-using-a-PEEP-amp-GLOBE-at-50-yards

Unfortunately all this work was done a year before I had an account with Killough Shooting Sports for Eley ammo, all the ammo I sorted by rim thickness and weight was done with mediocre bulk ammo....but the exercise was done just the same.

https://i.imgur.com/lGeDMx5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hJJe9rR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nRt9k7H.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9R7rdln.jpg

Here are a couple sample targets I used to track the results. I had piles of targets from these exercises. The problem here is that with iron sights, I couldn't shoot well enough to really tell any great difference in all the sorting & weighing work I did. I suppose now, with a quality CZ and actual target scope I might be able to get much better empirical data that might substantiate all the work involved to get the quantity of ammo required to do serious practice.

https://i.imgur.com/MPNIrTO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UKkGDe9.jpg

I sent Harry the jig I made for measuring rims & the jig I made for measuring overall length from base to front of drive band...now that Harry is running the MKII and has some fairly decent Eley Benchrest ammo he might want to set up an experiment to document these things...the ball is in his court now.

https://i.imgur.com/VBLRnZX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jGKjRja.jpg

[tazman]

I bought a rim thickness gauge and weighed and measure he dimensions of several lots of ammo I had on hand a year or so ago. Not sure if I ever posted any of it. In any case, with less expensive ammo, weighing and sorting ade some small differences in group size. Enough to b worth it if shooting for score.
With the good match stuff(Eley Match, Eley Tenex, and similar from other brands) measuring was a waste of time. There were no differences I could measure with he equipment at my disposal. Powder scales and micrometers are not sufficiently accurate to tell.
With the lesser batches f ammo, he differences were slight enough that, if the day had a breeze, I didn't know if the out of group shot was ammo, wind, or me.
I finally just used the good stuff and gave up on measuring.

[OS OK]

I bought a rim thickness gauge and weighed and measure he dimensions of several lots of ammo I had on hand a year or so ago. Not sure if I ever posted any of it. In any case, with less expensive ammo, weighing and sorting ade some small differences in group size. Enough to b worth it if shooting for score.
With the good match stuff(Eley Match, Eley Tenex, and similar from other brands) measuring was a waste of time. There were no differences I could measure with he equipment at my disposal. Powder scales and micrometers are not sufficiently accurate to tell.
With the lesser batches f ammo, he differences were slight enough that, if the day had a breeze, I didn't know if the out of group shot was ammo, wind, or me.
I finally just used the good stuff and gave up on measuring.

I agree 100% tazman....we will do far better if we concentrate on improving our equipment and especially so if we work on the ole'Fart running the rifle! :bigsmyl2:
Lately, the last couple of months I've been perfecting my 'POA setup' prior to 'embracing of the rifle', it is a must that I do not pre-load any pressure in any direction on the butt end of the rifle.

[Harry Tobin]

I was always wondering about sorting and if it would do any good. Been using Eley semi-benchrest, and for the money it’s not to bad and just can't afford the good stuff. Most of the time I’ll get a 8 SD out of it, it’s gonna be a long wait till springtime. I’ll have to practice my skills and become the machine that does the same thing every time. Some how winter just drags on forever!!!!!

[Bigslug]

I think I was traumatized by my sorting experience because I was trying to batch out a case of 5000 rounds plus a little extra in the span of a few weeks. Just how much good it did or didn't do would have been very hard to tell because it was all leather-jacket, ISU positional shooting - not nearly big enough samples, and nothing of a "before" test with the randomness left intact.

Considering your nearly "robot rig", you wouldn't need a very big sample. Shooting the extremes within a brick of "pretty good" rounds should tell you if there's something to it.

[OS OK]

I think I was traumatized by my sorting experience because I was trying to batch out a case of 5000 rounds plus a little extra in the span of a few weeks. Just how much good it did or didn't do would have been very hard to tell because it was all leather-jacket, ISU positional shooting - not nearly big enough samples, and nothing of a "before" test with the randomness left intact.

Considering your nearly "robot rig", you wouldn't need a very big sample. Shooting the extremes within a brick of "pretty good" rounds should tell you if there's something to it.

I don't get the term 'Robot Rig' ... what exactly is that?

[Bigslug]

I meant that he's fully benched with a lot more of the human variables under control.

[OS OK]

I meant that he's fully benched with a lot more of the human variables under control.

This is what you had me thinking of when you said 'Robot Rig'...:bigsmyl2:...this is something I can't understand. It's almost like, well...."Who has the most amount of money and the best Rig Builder?"

https://i.imgur.com/j1uFLRu.jpg

[Bigslug]

It's certainly a matter of perspective. . .

The centerfire Benchrest game is about crafting the gun AND ammo for maximum repeatability.

The .22 BR game is about building up the gun and figuring out what's do be done about the ammo which was crafted by somebody else.

ISU 3-position smallbore shooting can involve some impressive gear and ammo, but it's a very physical game that's about more improving the shooter, which is why it's excelled at by a lot of super-fit college age kids with good eyes. The "robot rig" bench rest approach still allows for what my father and I call "gnarled old Benchrest gnomes" to improve themselves through ability to read conditions of weather and gun, despite the fact that the bodily interface now has some real deficiencies.

My own take is that at the point you're shooting the rifle from a bench with no intention to do anything other than shoot that rifle from a bench, any human contact with the rifle at the moment of firing is an unwanted addition of variables that you can't measure or adjust with a torque wrench, thermometer, or set of calipers. If the name of the game is indeed measuring the equipment and collecting firing data, we're FAR off the reservation of position, hold and breathing, so why bring in the "meat problems" that can render those measurements more uncertain?

I merely look at where Harry's going and figure that since he's mostly full-robo already, a set of T&E wheels and trigger actuator are the next logical steps.

[dverna]

I was always wondering about sorting and if it would do any good. Been using Eley semi-benchrest, and for the money it’s not to bad and just can't afford the good stuff. Most of the time I’ll get a 8 SD out of it, it’s gonna be a long wait till springtime. I’ll have to practice my skills and become the machine that does the same thing every time. Some how winter just drags on forever!!!!!

If your place has a basement, it is not too difficult to set up an air gun range and practice shooting/bench skills. If that is not practical, set up a bench and dry fire using a scope. Watch the cross hairs as you release the shot. I used to dry fire a lot when I was competing on the university teams over 5 decades ago, but it gets old quick. I was not "well heeled" and ammunition was expensive. It helped me develop trigger/breath control at no cost and at home.

You are right about needing to be like a machine to shoot well consistently. Getting "in the zone" takes a lot of concentration. I doubt a person with ADD can ever shoot really well.

[OS OK]

It's certainly a matter of perspective. . .

The centerfire Benchrest game is about crafting the gun AND ammo for maximum repeatability.

The .22 BR game is about building up the gun and figuring out what's do be done about the ammo which was crafted by somebody else.

ISU 3-position smallbore shooting can involve some impressive gear and ammo, but it's a very physical game that's about more improving the shooter, which is why it's excelled at by a lot of super-fit college age kids with good eyes. The "robot rig" bench rest approach still allows for what my father and I call "gnarled old Benchrest gnomes" to improve themselves through ability to read conditions of weather and gun, despite the fact that the bodily interface now has some real deficiencies.

My own take is that at the point you're shooting the rifle from a bench with no intention to do anything other than shoot that rifle from a bench, any human contact with the rifle at the moment of firing is an unwanted addition of variables that you can't measure or adjust with a torque wrench, thermometer, or set of calipers. If the name of the game is indeed measuring the equipment and collecting firing data, we're FAR off the reservation of position, hold and breathing, so why bring in the "meat problems" that can render those measurements more uncertain?

I merely look at where Harry's going and figure that since he's mostly full-robo already, a set of T&E wheels and trigger actuator are the next logical steps.

I like being in control of the rifle, it's the reason I like to excel as best I can given all the variables involved.
Benchrest @ age 72 is my game now and my goal is to shoot an average of .400" or less at 100 yards.
That may sound like a lofty goal but at the same time it is a realistic expectation and when accomplished, it's most rewarding.
I don't care about competition or rubbing elbows with the Pro's in the field...I am my own best competitor.
Given these conditions, we shooters can go a long ways improving our shooting and our equipment whether it be off a bench or propped in a branch of a tree or off a log as we are squatted in the bush...so long as we keep experimenting in the Rabbit'Hole and sharing with others our 'empirical data'.

[WRideout]

All this experimentation, demonstrates just how much details matter in precision shooting. Both in equipment and technique.
Also, just how much different conditions matter in day to day shooting.
I noticed that temperature changes during the shooting session seemed to have a larger effect on my group size than I would have believed. It is hard to say just how much expansion and contraction changed things. Then you also have the added heat from the round count(barrel warming) to consider.

Your results are very encouraging. Particularly, since I purchased a fairly large quantity of the Eley Club ammo a little while ago.
For me, finding a day with little wind and minimal temperature change over a shooting session is hard to do. Where I live, we have 20-30 degree temperature swings from morning to afternoon.
Wind is always a factor. I just can't seem to get my head wrapped around the changes yet. Still working on it.

When I was in a M110 canon battalion in Santa Barbara, California, we did all our firing at Camp Roberts. One of the parameters for setting up a fire mission is propellant temperature. Due to the moderate climate, prop temp was never a real consideration. Then we went to Minnesota for winter training. The first rounds downrange fell into the buffer zone, almost out of the impact area. A quick investigation revealed that prop temp was the culprit.

Wayne

[tazman]

I know that snipers and target shooters using centerfire rifles have an equation they use when temps change. I don't have any idea what it is though.
I do know things shoot slower and low when the ammo is cold and the opposite when things are warmer. I don't have the experience to know how much.
Certainly, the same thing would apply to artillery.

[OS OK]

Harry and I were talking about 'FTF's' (failure to fire) & poor ignition the last couple of weeks.

I've been getting these often in a 1 year old lot of Eley Match since the weather turned colder...don't know if that makes the critical difference with ignition or not?
But, anyway...Harry tells me about a spring for the CZ452 that's 10% stronger and he gives me a link.
I got those springs in & changed the striker spring a few days ago.

I've shot one session since the change...there were no FTF's & no magical improvements in my 100 yard group averages...but...I think I do see a difference, a slight difference in the strike on the case.
Three cases are taken from before the spring change & three cases from after...can any of you tell which cases are which? they are not mixed up, they are grouped in 3's.

https://i.imgur.com/3xPPl8V.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0gvI16j.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IBYFodK.jpg

The spring is an obvious observation, the new spring is a tad-bit (?1/8") longer...

I think that every little subtle improvement will shave off a couple or more thousandths in our average group size? Me hopes...:bigsmyl2:

[Harry Tobin]

That looks like quite a big difference to me, awhile back I lost the spring MKII. I hate when a spring goes flying and hours and days later and never found. So I contacted Savage for springs they were nice enough, but would not sell me the spring directly to me. It had to be sent to my FFL, thought that was a bunch of crap for a spring. But the girl at Savage did good and sent 2 of them free to the FFL. No charge to me. Not 100% sure but I think with better hits primer ignition may give you better results with SD's. My 2 cents

[tazman]

I remember someone mentioning firing pin strikes in another thread. He included a suggestion on how to shape the firing pin to give most consistent ignition. He claimed it improved the SD and somewhat helped the group size. Unfortunately, I don't remember which thread or who posted it.

Looking at those pin strikes, I have to wonder if the outside edge of the firing pin is hitting/rubbing the chamber wall slightly at impact. If so, that would throw another problem into the mix.

[OS OK]

I remember someone mentioning firing pin strikes in another thread. He included a suggestion on how to shape the firing pin to give most consistent ignition. He claimed it improved the SD and somewhat helped the group size. Unfortunately, I don't remember which thread or who posted it.

Looking at those pin strikes, I have to wonder if the outside edge of the firing pin is hitting/rubbing the chamber wall slightly at impact. If so, that would throw another problem into the mix.

The way the striker rides inside the bolt, it's like a piston and the rear 2 tabs keep it clocked...it comes out of the bolt face perfectly centered in the hole.

https://i.imgur.com/XiXQ0js.jpg