Cast bullets being swaged when seated in 9mm case

[Thomas918]

I have a problem. If using a 9mm expander through die, it swages my cast bullets really small when seating. Down to .349 in some spots. I replaced the 9mm with the 38sw plug into my expander through die. 90% of the finished rounds crimped good but the remaining rounds I could move the bullet back and forth and rotate it inside the case. I couldn't pull it out by hand but it still wasn't crimped in there right. I am using the bullet seating and crimping die with no crimp being applied followed up by a Lee factory crimp die applying a medium crimp. I even see the crimp line in the bullet on the rounds I can rotate and move the bullet in and out by at least .020. I'm not sure if I need another brand of taper crimp or what I need to do to fix this

[Der Gebirgsjager]

What does the diameter of your cast bullets measure before you seat them? Should be .355" minimum, preferably .357". If they are within that range, then the case mouths need to be expanded enough to get the base of the bullet started with your fingers. The seating die can be adjusted to crimp--probably a taper crimp, but maybe a roll crimp depending on the make and vintage of the die. Usually this is done in two separate operations, seat then crimp, but if you tinker with the setting of the die you can perform both operations at once. I truly love the Lee Factory Crimp dies and have one for almost every cartridge that I reload, but I don't automatically use them for every job. In your case it sounds like you might try using the regular seating/crimping die and then decide if the Lee FCD is actually needed or not. There are two types of LFCDs, with or without a carbide insert. The one with the insert is engineered to produce ammo that will fit in your chamber, and if your bullets are oversized (back to the beginning--how large are they?) they will swage down when run in and out of the die's carbide insert. The other type doesn't have the insert and crimps only. Of course, the possibility of an unsersized LFCD insert exists, and it's also possible that you will find the LFCD to work satisfactorily with jacketed bullets.

DG

[Thomas918]

What does the diameter of your cast bullets measure before you seat them? Should be .355" minimum, preferably .357". If they are within that range, then the case mouths need to be expanded enough to get the base of the bullet started with your fingers. The seating die can be adjusted to crimp--probably a taper crimp, but maybe a roll crimp depending on the make and vintage of the die. Usually this is done in two separate operations, seat then crimp, but if you tinker with the setting of the die you can perform both operations at once. I truly love the Lee Factory Crimp dies and have one for almost every cartridge that I reload, but I don't automatically use them for every job. In your case it sounds like you might try using the regular seating/crimping die and then decide if the Lee FCD is actually needed or not. There are two types of LFCDs, with or without a carbide insert. The one with the insert is engineered to produce ammo that will fit in your chamber, and if your bullets are oversized (back to the beginning--how large are they?) they will swage down when run in and out of the die's carbide insert. The other type doesn't have the insert and crimps only. Of course, the possibility of an unsersized LFCD insert exists, and it's also possible that you will find the LFCD to work satisfactorily with jacketed bullets.

DG

I have them sized to .356. They are cast from wheel weights so not too hard and not too soft. The lee FCD I have is the one that has the carbine sizer insert I'm pretty sure. All the lee FCD for pistol are carbide. Do you think another brand of crimping die would work better since some of them don't have the sizer insert? In the meantime I will just crimp with the seating die and pull the bullets to see if the swaging is less.
Another thing when using the 38sw plug in the expander die, it does swage the lead less but still sizes them down to .352 to .353. The problem is some of the rounds have bad neck tension. I just made 20 dummy rounds and the rounds that had bad neck tension measured no different than the ones with a good crimp and neck tension. I pulled all the bullets and measure them all. I even measured the case length to see if that had any factor and it didn't. It has no rhyme or reason. So I went back to the standard 9mm plug in the expander through die. I'm thinking of getting a Lyman M expander but didn't want to spend the money if it doesn't work.

[Thomas918]

Update. I reran the ammo that had loose neck tension through again with no Lee FCD and it tightened it up. I can't move the bullet anymore. I also ran another 20 dummy rounds without the FCD and pulled the bullets. They are definitely better. They are still getting a kiss of a crimp from the seater and crimp die. So I guess the Lee LCD is squishing them down a little and the brass is springing back which leads to a loose bullet. This is all with the 38sw expander die.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I had a feeling that just using the issue seater/crimper die would make things better. It doesn't sound like your brass is the best. It may need to be annealed, but 9mm brass is available in such abundance now days that I'd just throw anything away that I felt was questionable. Sorry to use this tired saying but, "If you want to play, you have to pay." An expander die would probably work better for cast bullet loading, and will likely come in handy down the road on other projects. Whomever said, "Start reloading. You'll save a lot of money" wasn't telling the truth! Anyway, it sounds like your problems are about solved---for now. It's all part of the fun and challenge of reloading.

DG

[45_Colt]

The lee FCD I have is the one that has the carbine sizer insert I'm pretty sure.

Most likely, I haven't seen a collet crimp die for the 9mm.


All the lee FCD for pistol are carbide.

Not true, Lee makes FCD for several pistol cartridges in the collet format. No carbide ring, I use a couple of them.


Do you think another brand of crimping die would work better since some of them don't have the sizer insert? In the meantime I will just crimp with the seating die and pull the bullets to see if the swaging is less.

The crimp ring can be driven/knocked out. That will provide a normal taper crimp without further resizing the round. Otherwise, just pick up another seat/crimp die and use it for crimping only.

45_Colt

[45_Colt]

Whomever said, "Start reloading. You'll save a lot of money" wasn't telling the truth!

DG

So true, you just shoot more :Fire:

45_Colt

[RogerDat]

The NOE case neck expander buttons are a great option. You get those to fit your sized lead and order them .001 under that for a snug but consistent fit. There is a tiny bit of extra expansion at the very mouth of the case from those expanders that makes it easier to get the bullet in without shaving.

Not sure it would apply to the Lee FCD which it seems is designed to swage the bullet & case to specifications suitable for jacketed bullets. Generally doing a number on our lead slugs. Had one and didn't like the results so stopped using it. Liked the results from the expander buttons which duplicate the Lyman M die from what I have read.

Glad you seemed to have found a way to make yours work for you.

[Thomas918]

The NOE case neck expander buttons are a great option. You get those to fit your sized lead and order them .001 under that for a snug but consistent fit. There is a tiny bit of extra expansion at the very mouth of the case from those expanders that makes it easier to get the bullet in without shaving.

Not sure it would apply to the Lee FCD which it seems is designed to swage the bullet & case to specifications suitable for jacketed bullets. Generally doing a number on our lead slugs. Had one and didn't like the results so stopped using it. Liked the results from the expander buttons which duplicate the Lyman M die from what I have read.

Glad you seemed to have found a way to make yours work for you.

Is the NOE case expander a die or is it an insert for one of the Lee dies?

Edit: just went to their website. Lots of options on there.

[Thomas918]

Most likely, I haven't seen a collet crimp die for the 9mm.



Not true, Lee makes FCD for several pistol cartridges in the collet format. No carbide ring, I use a couple of them.



The crimp ring can be driven/knocked out. That will provide a normal taper crimp without further resizing the round. Otherwise, just pick up another seat/crimp die and use it for crimping only.

45_Colt

Can the Carbide ring be reinstalled if you remove it? I would want to continue using it for my copper plated bullets down the road

[Thomas918]

New update. I did a plunk test on the rounds that didn't go through the Lee FCD and some were a little tight. A few I had to push a little for them to seat all the way. They feed fine under spring pressure though so they may function just fine. I didn't really crimp too hard with the Lee seater and crimp die. Can the plunk test be passed if I used a harder crimp? I ran a few of the worst offenders( the ones I had to push lightly to sit flush in the barrel) through the Lee FCD and they then plunked easily in the chamber. So I'm stuck in between swaging my lead down or peace of mind of with complete assured seating and extraction of rounds. Most of my ammo will be used for matches in USPSA.

[45_Colt]

Can the Carbide ring be reinstalled if you remove it? I would want to continue using it for my copper plated bullets down the road

I don't know how easy it would be to reinstall the ring. I can't see why not, as long as it didn't crack on the way out.

But at the same time I can't see R&R'ing it on a regular basis.

45_Colt

[Willbird]

I made a couple custom Lee powder through expander plugs for somebody who posts here. He was happy with them.
I am working on setting up to make them more often. My opinion is that the expander should expand the same depth that the bullet seats.

Lee and Dillon like to use the bullet to expand the case muoth.

There is a limit IMHO to how much neck tension can be achieved and if the case internally is smaller than the bullet either the bullet must expand the case or the bullet gets sized down.

In mild traditional cast bullet uses like 38 special it might seem to work OK, but in my own experiments in 9x19 if the bullet gets sized down by the case then the ammo stinks as far as accuracy goes. One can load a round then pull the bullet with a hammer puller and then measure it to see if seating it in the case is sizing it down.

The loaded round being too large a dia is a different issue.....my comments are strictly about case prep prior to bullet seating.

Bill

[Thomas918]

I made a couple custom Lee powder through expander plugs for somebody who posts here. He was happy with them.
I am working on setting up to make them more often. My opinion is that the expander should expand the same depth that the bullet seats.

Lee and Dillon like to use the bullet to expand the case muoth.

There is a limit IMHO to how much neck tension can be achieved and if the case internally is smaller than the bullet either the bullet must expand the case or the bullet gets sized down.

In mild traditional cast bullet uses like 38 special it might seem to work OK, but in my own experiments in 9x19 if the bullet gets sized down by the case then the ammo stinks as far as accuracy goes. One can load a round then pull the bullet with a hammer puller and then measure it to see if seating it in the case is sizing it down.

The loaded round being too large a dia is a different issue.....my comments are strictly about case prep prior to bullet seating.

Bill

So far the 38sw is seating the projectiles decently so far. It bells nicely but it does leave a little bit desired. My 150gr bullets are .356 x .642 in length. The seating depth is .375 give or take. 015. When you get stuff set up let me know how much you would want for one and I'll take it into consideration

Edit: took my 9mm plug expanded rounds to the range and chronod. They had decent spread but 1in 10 keyholed which isn't surprising with how much they swaged. I also chronod the 38sw plug expanded rounds and they performed very good with close FPS. I forgot to check for keyholing on that load though so I can't trust it yet. I have a match tomorrow and I'm gonna bring my copper plated 147s until I get this figured out. Thanks for replies everyone.

[Willbird]

So far the 38sw is seating the projectiles decently so far. It bells nicely but it does leave a little bit desired. My 150gr bullets are .356 x .642 in length. The seating depth is .375 give or take. 015. When you get stuff set up let me know how much you would want for one and I'll take it into consideration

Edit: took my 9mm plug expanded rounds to the range and chronod. They had decent spread but 1in 10 keyholed which isn't surprising with how much they swaged. I also chronod the 38sw plug expanded rounds and they performed very good with close FPS. I forgot to check for keyholing on that load though so I can't trust it yet. I have a match tomorrow and I'm gonna bring my copper plated 147s until I get this figured out. Thanks for replies everyone.

Which bullet are you using ?? If you have a picture I can draw one up in cad that has the important features included. Or if it is a Lee mold I might have one, I have a couple. I think the last ones I made I may have used the Lee 356-120-TC bullet for dimensions.

Bill

[Thomas918]

Which bullet are you using ?? If you have a picture I can draw one up in cad that has the important features included. Or if it is a Lee mold I might have one, I have a couple. I think the last ones I made I may have used the Lee 356-120-TC bullet for dimensions.

Bill

The bullet is 147 grain flat point. It's the one from MP molds. Flatbase .357 sized down to 356 https://www.mp-molds.com/product/357-147-flat-round-nose-flat-base-6cavity-mold-no-lube-groove/

[Willbird]

The bullet is 147 grain flat point. It's the one from MP molds. Flatbase .357 sized down to 356 https://www.mp-molds.com/product/357-147-flat-round-nose-flat-base-6cavity-mold-no-lube-groove/

Ok that looks interesting. Will plug in the .375 seating depth and see what that looks like. I have a sample lee 9x19 powder thru inbound.

[Meatpuppet]

My experience with 9mm:

98% of bullet retention is from a properly resized case, not crimp. What sizing die are you using? I run a Lee/MGW U-Die which resizes the case .0003 smaller than a standard die and provides fantastic grip on the projectile.

For coated bullets, .357 & .358 give me the best accuraccy across a variety of handguns. .356 size projectile and a sizing die that sized a little "loose" might be a problem.

For 9mm I reload coated bullets almost exclusively on a progressive Dillon press. I used to have problems with the case not being expanded deep enough for the longer 147 - 165 grain projectiles and the projectiles would be swaged down by the thickening case wall while seating. I switched to a deep powder-thru expander by Unique Tek (https://uniquetek.com/product/T1736), to expand the inside to .357. Definately helped.

Finally, the FCD helps me for chambering reliability, but I dont necessarily use the crimp function.

Im looking forward to your solution.

[Thomas918]

So another update. I reinstalled my Lee FCD so my rounds would chamber perfectly. I had brought the die far out of the die so the Carbide ring took out the belling of the case. The cases were just barely entering the die and the crimp was not being applied at all.The rounds chambered fine after . I had a few rounds being swaged down at seemingly random times. So I pulled all my bullets and set them next to the different head stamps they came from. I found out that a few brands of brass had really thick case walls. Which when resized for chambering after inserting a bullet, they would swage the bullet down to .353. I had a lot of brands that were thick. Thankfully my most numerous brass had thinner case walls and didn't swage the bullet at all when ran through the Carbide sizing ring in the FCD. Now I'm just waiting on a normal taper crimp die in the mail to crimp my rounds and remove the belling without worrying about the Carbide ring in the FCD die.

[ioon44]

I use Hornady 9mm dies with the Hornady taper crimp die. I size my bullets to .358" to .359" for my 9's which measure .357".

One thing I do to prevent swagging is to back the sizer die up one turn (.080"), so the brass is not full length sized but still passes the neck tension test and plunk test. My taper crimp die is set to just remove the bell from the case.

I am using 140gr Hi-Tek coated bullets that I cast too around 12 BHN, these are very accurate and have no leading problems with my Walther PPQ SF and PDP.

About a year ago I started sorting brass by head stamp and use Speer, Blazer, R&P, FC & PMC, everything else goes into the scrap bucket.

From reading lots of post on this forum it seems to me the Lee FCD die's cause more problems than they solve.

[Thomas918]

I use Hornady 9mm dies with the Hornady taper crimp die. I size my bullets to .358" to .359" for my 9's which measure .357".

One thing I do to prevent swagging is to back the sizer die up one turn (.080"), so the brass is not full length sized but still passes the neck tension test and plunk test. My taper crimp die is set to just remove the bell from the case.

I am using 140gr Hi-Tek coated bullets that I cast too around 12 BHN, these are very accurate and have no leading problems with my Walther PPQ SF and PDP.

About a year ago I started sorting brass by head stamp and use Speer, Blazer, R&P, FC & PMC, everything else goes into the scrap bucket.

From reading lots of post on this forum it seems to me the Lee FCD die's cause more problems than they solve.

Herters, PPU, GFI, Xtreme, S&B, and CBC are some of the headstands I put in a separate bag for use with copper plated. Some had .016 walls. I kept everything that had around .011 walls. My most numerous brass is blazer with walls around .0115

[Kenstone]

Herters, PPU, GFI, Xtreme, S&B, and CBC are some of the headstands I put in a separate bag for use with copper plated. Some had .016 walls. I kept everything that had around .011 walls. My most numerous brass is blazer with walls around .0115

Not sure if you wet tumble with pins but doing just that gets you a very good view of the inside of the case.
It will allow you to see stuff like this:
307657
307658
Those steps are difficult to identify when you measure the wall thickness at the case mouth or a case that has that "black hole as fired" appearance.
Edge measurement:
307659
Deeper in:
307662
If a bullet is seated beyond that step a bulge will result.
jmo,
.

[414gates]

Please refresh me on what an expander through die is.

Last time I used an expander and die together it was a powder through die with an expander under the powder drop. there was never a bullet on that stage.

[gwpercle]

I've been following this ... the 9mm Luger and cast boolits had been giving me a very hard time ... I don't usually say cuss words but this stinker got several in English and Cajun French .

What solved my problems were a boolit mould , expander plug and a gas check .

I wanted to cast them soft so they would expand , I use 50-50 COWW & soft lead (range scrap) for a bhn of 8.0 , which will squeeze down easily if the case expanding plug isn't correctly sized .
What solved all my problems :
1.) NOE mould 358-124-TC-GC .... a 124 gr. Truncated Cone w/ gas check
2.) NOE Expander Plug .358 X .354 (AP) auto pistol
3.) Gas Checks

I cast the boolits , install the GC's , size to .357" , lube with Lithi-Bee conventional lube .
Mixed range brass is neck expanded with NOE exp. Plug in Lee Universal expander body.
primed cases are charged and the gas checked boolit bases are protected when seated ...
the expander plug is the exact correct size and a Taper Crimp applied (just enough to hold the boolit snugly and No More , with the CH Taper Crimp Die ( my dies are an older CH set of steel dies . Even though the boolit is soft (bhn 8 ) the above method allows successful seating and taper crimping . I do all this on a single stage Lee Hand Press but maybe something from my trials and tribulations with this nasty little round might be helpful .
The gas check and NOE Expander Plug (I ordered it with the mould) seemed to make the most difference in success or failure . I can drive that slug over 1000 fps with no leading and it mushrooms like a JSP
If this can help anyone load the 9mm I will be happy .
I never wanted a 9mm Luger but my Dad had a WWII Walther P-38 hiding in his sock drawer and he Gave it to me one day ... what's a guy going to do ... I had picked up a set of dies 40 years ago ... so I had to buy a boolit mould ... but this thing has sorely tested my loading skills ... but I got it by the tail on a downhill drag now !
Gary

[Thomas918]

Please refresh me on what an expander through die is.

Last time I used an expander and die together it was a powder through die with an expander under the powder drop. there was never a bullet on that stage.

I meant to say powder through die.

[Thomas918]

Not sure if you wet tumble with pins but doing just that gets you a very good view of the inside of the case.
It will allow you to see stuff like this:
307657
307658
Those steps are difficult to identify when you measure the wall thickness at the case mouth or a case that has that "black hole as fired" appearance.
Edge measurement:
307659
Deeper in:
307662
If a bullet is seated beyond that step a bulge will result.
jmo,
.

Yes I wet tumble with pins. My capital cartridge cases have a step in them. I haven't seen many others. Thankfully the seating depth is still above where the case thickens up on most headstamps. I noticed most headstamps thicken up to .015 at that point.

[Thomas918]

I've been following this ... the 9mm Luger and cast boolits had been giving me a very hard time ... I don't usually say cuss words but this stinker got several in English and Cajun French .

What solved my problems were a boolit mould , expander plug and a gas check .

I wanted to cast them soft so they would expand , I use 50-50 COWW & soft lead (range scrap) for a bhn of 8.0 , which will squeeze down easily if the case expanding plug isn't correctly sized .
What solved all my problems :
1.) NOE mould 358-124-TC-GC .... a 124 gr. Truncated Cone w/ gas check
2.) NOE Expander Plug .358 X .354 (AP) auto pistol
3.) Gas Checks

I cast the boolits , install the GC's , size to .357" , lube with Lithi-Bee conventional lube .
Mixed range brass is neck expanded with NOE exp. Plug in Lee Universal expander body.
primed cases are charged and the gas checked boolit bases are protected when seated ...
the expander plug is the exact correct size and a Taper Crimp applied (just enough to hold the boolit snugly and No More , with the CH Taper Crimp Die ( my dies are an older CH set of steel dies . Even though the boolit is soft (bhn 8 ) the above method allows successful seating and taper crimping . I do all this on a single stage Lee Hand Press but maybe something from my trials and tribulations with this nasty little round might be helpful .
The gas check and NOE Expander Plug (I ordered it with the mould) seemed to make the most difference in success or failure . I can drive that slug over 1000 fps with no leading and it mushrooms like a JSP
If this can help anyone load the 9mm I will be happy .
I never wanted a 9mm Luger but my Dad had a WWII Walther P-38 hiding in his sock drawer and he Gave it to me one day ... what's a guy going to do ... I had picked up a set of dies 40 years ago ... so I had to buy a boolit mould ... but this thing has sorely tested my loading skills ... but I got it by the tail on a downhill drag now !
Gary

Thanks I'm sure that will help some out. I think using the larger expander will do the most to help. I can't believe the expanders in my brands of dies are so small. I guess they are made for FMJ 115gr shorties.

[414gates]

I meant to say powder through die.

When you use an expander in a powder through die, you set it so that the case mouth is opened just enough for a bullet to balance in it, and no more.

Then seat, and it should be a tight fit.

The expander plug should never be in contact with the bullet.

So how is your expander swaging bullets.?

[gloob]

The Lee expanders are shortish, so even if you use a 38 special expander, it'll be too short. To seat a 147 grain bullet, you have to set the expander so deep that the mouth will flare too much.

You would have better luck with an NOE expander. They make them to fit Lee die bodies. For 9mm cases, I use a 362/358, but I use 358 sized bullets.

The 9mm cases are so thick that this works fine for even 355 jacketed, in my limited experience testing this. Neck tension seems completely adequate, and the unexpanded case behind the base of the bullet prevents set-back, even rechambering a round multiple times and remeasuring the OAL. But if you load 356 diameter bullets, the 360/356 expander should be perfect.

Some of your headstamps won't load 147 (or even 125 grain cast bullets). But the expander will sort those out. When they take a lot of force and come out all misshapen, you can sort out those headstamps.

[gloob]

When you use an expander in a powder through die, you set it so that the case mouth is opened just enough for a bullet to balance in it, and no more.

Then seat, and it should be a tight fit.

The expander plug should never be in contact with the bullet.

So how is your expander swaging bullets.?

It's the case that swages down the diameter of the bullet. Many/most calibers don't suffer this problem. The case walls are too thin for that to matter, and/or the sizing die isn't tight enough to make the case too small in the first place.

But 9mm cases are thick and short and they're tapered. The last bit means that all carbide 9mm dies size the case behind the mouth too tight. And then the thick case squishes the base of the bullet as you seat it. This undersized base can allow excessive hot gas jetting its way past the bullet before the front of the bullet manages to plug the bore, melting some of the bullet and blowing away all the lube. Causing lead fouling, smoke, and inaccuracy.

An expander that is large enough and goes deep enough will solve this problem. This is so prevalent in 9mm cast reloading that it's a sticky in this section of the forum.

[Thomas918]

It's the case that swages down the diameter of the bullet. Many/most calibers don't suffer this problem. The case walls are too thin for that to matter, and/or the sizing die isn't tight enough to make the case too small in the first place.

But 9mm cases are thick and short and they're tapered. The last bit means that all carbide 9mm dies size the case behind the mouth too tight. And then the thick case squishes the base of the bullet as you seat it. This undersized base can allow excessive hot gas jetting its way past the bullet before the front of the bullet manages to plug the bore, melting some of the bullet and blowing away all the lube. Causing lead fouling, smoke, and inaccuracy.

An expander that is large enough and goes deep enough will solve this problem. This is so prevalent in 9mm cast reloading that it's a sticky in this section of the forum.

Thanks for explaining that. I hope that it clears it up for him.

[Thomas918]

The Lee expanders are shortish, so even if you use a 38 special expander, it'll be too short. To seat a 147 grain bullet, you have to set the expander so deep that the mouth will flare too much.

You would have better luck with an NOE expander. They make them to fit Lee die bodies. For 9mm cases, I use a 362/358, but I use 358 sized bullets.

The 9mm cases are so thick that this works fine for even 355 jacketed, in my limited experience testing this. Neck tension seems completely adequate, and the unexpanded case behind the base of the bullet prevents set-back, even rechambering a round multiple times and remeasuring the OAL. But if you load 356 diameter bullets, the 360/356 expander should be perfect.

Some of your headstamps won't load 147 (or even 125 grain cast bullets). But the expander will sort those out. When they take a lot of force and come out all misshapen, you can sort out those headstamps.

I am using a 38s&w expander which I do believe is different than 38special. But I don't have any experience with those cartridges so I can't say for sure. When I use the 38s&w plug they expand the same depth I seat my 147gr.

[gloob]

Oh, sorry. Misspoke.

Yes, I bought the Lee 38 S&W expander plug, myself. I probably learned about it from this forum. For some reason I remember it being too short for my 125 grain cast, unless you wanted to make the case mouth into a trumpet.

Anyhow, I still had fouling, and I bought the NOE plug. My NOE expander plugs fit in my LEE dies.

[Thomas918]

Yes I learned about the 38s&w plug from one of the stickies. Only paid shipping for it from Lee precision's website. If NOE made a powder through die expander insert I would buy one. I think they only sell the expander for the universal expander die.

[gloob]

Oh. I'm glad I got one when I did. That beefs up the price, having to buy a Lee universal expander die for it, now. And obviously no powder-through. But it's still comparable in price to a single Lyman M die.

I just took my 9mm expander die apart to see for myself. Yep. Different size/shape versus the Universal expander plugs.

I guess the powder thru is annoying if you don't use it as intended. I just realized that when I opened mine up and an extra part fell out. A section of brass tube I put in there to make the plug not move up/down!

While it was out, I measured it. Where it reaches full diameter on the end to the step up, it's a full quarter inch of depth. I no longer have my 38 S&W plug, but thought you might want to know.

[Thomas918]

Oh. I'm glad I got one when I did. That beefs up the price, having to buy a Lee universal expander die for it, now. And obviously no powder-through. But it's still comparable in price to a single Lyman M die.

I just took my 9mm expander die apart to see for myself. Yep. Different size/shape versus the Universal expander plugs.

I guess the powder thru is annoying if you don't use it as intended. I just realized that when I opened mine up and an extra part fell out. A section of brass tube I put in there to make the plug not move up/down!

While it was out, I measured it. Where it reaches full diameter on the end to the step up, it's a full quarter inch of depth. I no longer have my 38 S&W plug, but thought you might want to know.

Apparently there's a Lyman powder through die that has expander plugs in it the are pretty close to an M die. I don't have either so I cant confirm but it ships with multiple expanders and works with the Lee auto drum and other big name powder measures

[414gates]

Thanks for explaining that. I hope that it clears it up for him.

Yes, thanks.

I've never encountered this before.

I have often seen slightly concave walls on pistol and revolver brass after loading cast. This is from the mouth being stretched a bit.

If your brass is causing problems with the harder lead bullets, try bullets made from softer lead, powder coated.

[gwpercle]

Thanks I'm sure that will help some out. I think using the larger expander will do the most to help. I can't believe the expanders in my brands of dies are so small. I guess they are made for FMJ 115gr shorties.

That is absolutely Correct ... standard dies are made to load FMJ at .355" diameter , we throw them a curve with cast at .357" or some at .358" ... the standard dies just aren't set up for the larger softer cast boolits we are trying to use .
The NOE Expander Plug .358 X 354 (AP ) stopped the case from sizing down my .357" sized boolits more than anything else ... I would have given up without this sweet little invention .

I'm not famaliar with progressive presses but if the Exp. Plug set in the Lee Universal Expander Die body could be worked into the system ... that would sure take care of the case expanding / bullet swaging down problem .
I still believe the 9mm Luger is a Little Stinker ...
...but learning to get along with it !
Gary

[gloob]

^Standard expander dies are 2 thous under the size of a jacketed bullet. For 9mm, that results in 353, for the expander that comes with your die set.

The NOE you have is 354, only 1 thous larger. That leaves it 3 thous smaller than your 357 bullets. If you pull some of your bullets, I bet you find the base has been swaged down, still. But if that works in your guns, there's no problem.


In my Glock 9mm's, I have to load 358 boolits with a 358 expander to completely eliminate fouling. If your chamber is too tight, my reloads might not fit in your gun. But anyone that has fouling, step one is to fill that chamber as much as you can, to reduce gas blowby to the minimum as possible. My Glock 40, ditto. I need to use a full 401 expander to eliminate fouling... I tried the standard Lyman M die, and that didn't work. (In my Glock 40, I also need to cull some of the headstamps that are too thick for these cartridges to chamber; if I put enough taper crimp for them to chamber, then the fouling returns!)

A 358 expander is not too big for a 358 bullet. Neck tension is still 100%. In most pistol calibers it simply doesn't matter, because the case doesn't need any expansion at all. The expander just needs to flare the case mouth a little, and the expander just centers the case so that the flare is concentric. And in rifles, you normally use a gas check, and that little check is hard enough to protect the boolit from being swaged.

So even though I also use full size expander in 45 as well as 9mm/40... that extra large expander doesn't really do anything good or bad in 45. It's just insurance in case I run into some extra thick 45 brass.

[Thomas918]

Yes, thanks.

I've never encountered this before.

I have often seen slightly concave walls on pistol and revolver brass after loading cast. This is from the mouth being stretched a bit.

If your brass is causing problems with the harder lead bullets, try bullets made from softer lead, powder coated.

My problem was being caused by lead too soft to expand brass enough. Which in turned made my lead bullets smaller.

[414gates]

My problem was being caused by lead too soft to expand brass enough. Which in turned made my lead bullets smaller.

And sized down too far to obdurate back up in the bore.

I suggested softer in case the size difference was small enough to be taken up by obduration.

I'm going to be loading 9mm cast in the new year, something to look out for.

[gloob]

Soft bullets work fine for me.

I like to shoot commercial cast bullets with a Brinnel of only 12. The manufacturer makes their 9mm bullets at Brinnel hardness of 18, and they recommend these softer bullets for 38 special cowboy loads. I shoot them in a Glock right at the speed of sound.

I have shot around 1000 straight, with no cleaning. I would run a patch just to inspect the bore, but these loads left no lead to scrub! In a Glock OEM barrel!

If you haven't failed the plunk test, yet, and you still have fouling in your 9mm? At least try going bigger. Both on the bullet and on the expander. The recommendations for using an expander 1-2 thous smaller is just lawyer talk! If you're neck sizing rifle cases, then you need a mandrel 2 thous smaller. When you are using an expander on sized cases, you can go full size.

[Thomas918]

And sized down too far to obdurate back up in the bore.

I suggested softer in case the size difference was small enough to be taken up by obduration.

I'm going to be loading 9mm cast in the new year, something to look out for.

I started loading cast bullets from a local casting company who used a pretty hard alloy. So I didnt notice a problem until I used my relatively soft alloy. But now that I'm expanding my cases correctly I think I am on the right path. I even have a proper taper crimp now to remove belling instead of using a Lee FCD. My huge variance in COAL that I had before also has been solved by correctly expanded cases too. Even when I was using copper plated bullets from Xtreme I have a huge .020 difference from the shortest to longest cartridge. Now it's within .005 which is great in my opinion since I'm using a progressive press.

[gloob]

If you want to get even more consistent OAL, especially with soft cast bullets? You can order or make seating stems customized to your specific bullets. There was at least one company that would make them for you. You had to send them 4 samples of your bullet.

I don't have a lathe, but I make my own. Most Lee seating stems will chuck into my half inch drill. I buy an extra seating stem for every new bullet profile I load. I grind them out with a Dremel while they're spinning in the drill.

The cost of an additional Lee seating stem is only $2.00! That's peanuts compared to the cost of a box of commercial bullets or a new mold.

https://leeprecision.com/b.seat-plug-9mm.html

[Thomas918]

If you want to get even more consistent OAL, especially with soft cast bullets? You can order or make seating stems customized to your specific bullets. There was at least one company that would make them for you. You had to send them 4 samples of your bullet.

I don't have a lathe, but I make my own. Most Lee seating stems will chuck into my half inch drill. I buy an extra seating stem for every new bullet profile I load. I grind them out with a Dremel while they're spinning in the drill.

The cost of an additional Lee seating stem is only $2.00! That's peanuts compared to the cost of a box of commercial bullets or a new mold.

https://leeprecision.com/b.seat-plug-9mm.html

My bullet mold came with the top punch that doubles as a seating stem in I do believe a few brands of seating dies. It's good to know that there's an option for Lee users out there. .005 is as good as it's gonna get for me since I'm using a progressive press with lots of flex in the carrier and shellplate.

[Thomas918]

New update guys. My rounds are keyholing badly. I pulled a few bullets and they are still measuring .356. I have no clue what the issue is. Just for fun, I pulled some Federal Syntech 150gr and they measured at .353. They all shot fine for me. Not one keyhole in about 500 I've shot. I also pulled my copper plated 147grs. They measured .353 and never have keyholed and I have loaded thousands of them. I have some unsized cast 147s that measure .358 and am curious if they will keyhole. I am also going to experiment seating my 147gr a little deeper. Anybody have any recommendations? I've read more 9mm threads on this subject and followed all instructions to the T.

[45_Colt]

Just a SWAG, could it be that they aren't getting enough spin to stabilize? Either via not engaging the rifling enough, or they are too long for the twist rate?

Strange that copper plated @ .353 are OK, but not straight lead at .356.

45_Colt

[Thomas918]

Just a SWAG, could it be that they aren't getting enough spin to stabilize? Either via not engaging the rifling enough, or they are too long for the twist rate?

Strange that copper plated @ .353 are OK, but not straight lead at .356.

45_Colt

That was what I was thinking. Either they are too heavy to stabilize, not engaging the rifling by being just a thousandth small, or the alloy is too soft.. It's a 5in barrel but I don't know the twist rate. Gun is a Canik Rival The bullets are shorter than the Syntech 150gr(.660) and way shorter than the Xtreme copper plated 147gr(.672). My cast and coated are .635 or so and weight 151gr to 152gr. Pushing them to 850fps.

[gloob]

New update guys. My rounds are keyholing badly. I pulled a few bullets and they are still measuring .356. I have no clue what the issue is. Just for fun, I pulled some Federal Syntech 150gr and they measured at .353. They all shot fine for me. Not one keyhole in about 500 I've shot. I also pulled my copper plated 147grs. They measured .353 and never have keyholed and I have loaded thousands of them. I have some unsized cast 147s that measure .358 and am curious if they will keyhole. I am also going to experiment seating my 147gr a little deeper. Anybody have any recommendations? I've read more 9mm threads on this subject and followed all instructions to the T.

If you keep trying, you'll eventually figure it out.
If your bullets are 356, and they're good all the way to the base? Try a larger an/or longer bearing surface bullet.

The reason the Syntech bullets are accurate despite being 353 at the base, is because they're polymer coated. They don't need to seal the bore as early/completely, and they'll still work fine.

Just because the front of your driving band is big enough to seal the bore, it doesn't mean your cast boolits will work 100% right. If the base is swaged to the point the OUTSIDE of the case has excessive extra room in the chamber, the case is going to expand when the round fires. And then there will be a larger gap between the case and the bullet. And that allows more gas to jet past the bullet, melting and blowing out all your bullet lube. The bullet will then lose lead to the bore, resulting in fouling and enough of a gap for gas jetting of the bullet. Your bullet is spinning just fine. It's just not symmetrical enough to have max accuracy and stability, once it leave the bore, because it has been gas cut on one side of the bullet as it was going down the bore.

Pony up for a larger and longer expander, and this problem goes away, so long as you use the right size bullet and expander for your particular chamber/bore. Remember, for a 356 bullet, the expander can be 356, all the way to where the base of the bullet ends up. (up to 1 thous larger will still leave 100% neck tension, but it is not necessary to go larger than bullet diameter). If you want to try a 358 sized bullet, because 356 already failed, you ought to consider also trying a 358 sized expander. If the ammo fails the plunk test, then you can sort out the offending headstamps or try using a slightly smaller expander.

Quick check: assess the smokiness of your ammo when you shoot it. If you get a small puff of smoke, that's bullet lube that has leaked out before being completely combusted, either out the muzzle and/or out the chamber. If you fill the chamber and leade completely enough, with large/long enough bullets, your cast bullets will not be any more smoky than jacketed factory ammo, at least out of a semiauto locked breech pistol. Revolvers and blowback pistols will always be smokey with cast bullets. So if you are getting noticeable smoke out of a locked breech semiauto, you know you can do better, even without putting any bullets on paper.

Or master powder coating, and with this extra work you can make ammo that chambers freely in any in-spec gun, and it will still be accurate.

[Thomas918]

If you keep trying, you'll eventually figure it out.
If your bullets are 356, and they're good all the way to the base? Try a larger an/or longer bearing surface bullet.

The reason the Syntech bullets are accurate despite being 353 at the base, is because they're polymer coated. They don't need to seal the bore as early/completely, and they'll still work fine.

Just because the front of your driving band is big enough to seal the bore, it doesn't mean your cast boolits will work 100% right. If the base is swaged to the point the OUTSIDE of the case has excessive extra room in the chamber, the case is going to expand when the round fires. And then there will be a larger gap between the case and the bullet. And that allows more gas to jet past the bullet, melting and blowing out all your bullet lube. The bullet will then lose lead to the bore, resulting in fouling and enough of a gap for gas jetting of the bullet. Your bullet is spinning just fine. It's just not symmetrical enough to have max accuracy and stability, once it leave the bore, because it has been gas cut on one side of the bullet as it was going down the bore.

Pony up for a larger and longer expander, and this problem goes away, so long as you use the right size bullet and expander for your particular chamber/bore. Remember, for a 356 bullet, the expander can be 356, all the way to where the base of the bullet ends up. (up to 1 thous larger will still leave 100% neck tension, but it is not necessary to go larger than bullet diameter). If you want to try a 358 sized bullet, because 356 already failed, you ought to consider also trying a 358 sized expander. If the ammo fails the plunk test, then you can sort out the offending headstamps or try using a slightly smaller expander.

Quick check: assess the smokiness of your ammo when you shoot it. If you get a small puff of smoke, that's bullet lube that has leaked out before being completely combusted, either out the muzzle and/or out the chamber. If you fill the chamber and leade completely enough, with large/long enough bullets, your cast bullets will not be any more smoky than jacketed factory ammo, at least out of a semiauto locked breech pistol. Revolvers and blowback pistols will always be smokey with cast bullets. So if you are getting noticeable smoke out of a locked breech semiauto, you know you can do better, even without putting any bullets on paper.

Or master powder coating, and with this extra work you can make ammo that chambers freely in any in-spec gun, and it will still be accurate.

I'm not sure if some of that would apply to me because I have a no lube groove bullet that I coat in HiTek coating. I'm afraid my bullet is too soft at the 151gr to correctly engage the rifling. And maybe to small but that confuses me as I've used a standard expander with my .356 bullets that sized them down to .350 and only some of that ammo tumbled and keyholed. The same amount as the correctly expanded and .356 bullet. Plus I'm sure the bases aren't being swaged down anymore because I've loaded and pulled over a 100 rounds now testing and checking crimps and diameters. So I'm thinking the coating and soft bullet isn't grabbing the rifling correctly. I will add some foundry lead to my softer lead to bump up the antimony. In the meantime idk what to do with the 2000 bullets I have sized and coated.

Edit: I'm using a fast powder (n320) which I read can jump the rifling if the alloy is too soft. I don't want to use a slower powder because the only reason why I use a 147gr load with a fast powder is to make minor power factor with the least amount of felt recoil for USPSA. Does anybody here have experience with keyholing who switched to a harder alloy solve their issue?

[Meatpuppet]

Reading your updated posts, it looks like your pulled bullets are still sizing down to .356. I still suspect thats the root of your problem. You need a properly sized deep expander to stop that from happening.

Your Canik has a 1-10 twist barrel, so stability is not an issue even at low velocity. Side note: For USPSA shooting, I use 9mm Ibijihead 168gr bullets loafing along at 780fps over 2.7gr of N320. I have never had a problem with keyholing in CZ, Glocks or Beretta platforms. I did have a friend shoot some of my reloads with .356 sized projectiles which keyholed badly in his Sig Sauer Legion. The keyholig dissappeared with .358 sized projectiles from the same manufacturer. I have since gone with .358 for all my 9mm coated loads.

Shoot me a PM if you want a few samples of different sized projectiles to try.

[Thomas918]

Reading your updated posts, it looks like your pulled bullets are still sizing down to .356. I still suspect thats the root of your problem. You need a properly sized deep expander to stop that from happening.

Your Canik has a 1-10 twist barrel, so stability is not an issue even at low velocity. Side note: For USPSA shooting, I use 9mm Ibijihead 168gr bullets loafing along at 780fps over 2.7gr of N320. I have never had a problem with keyholing in CZ, Glocks or Beretta platforms. I did have a friend shoot some of my reloads with .356 sized projectiles which keyholed badly in his Sig Sauer Legion. The keyholig dissappeared with .358 sized projectiles from the same manufacturer. I have since gone with .358 for all my 9mm coated loads.

Shoot me a PM if you want a few samples of different sized projectiles to try.

I went to ibijihead's website. They have great prices especially since shipping is already added onto the listed price. They also say their bullet alloy is 92/6/2 so it's a lot harder than mine.I have some .358 of my cast that I can seat in there and let the recoil spring chamber it. If that doesn't solve the issue I'm gonna remelt all the bullets and harden them up with some foundry type ingots and or rotometals super hard. I really appreciate the offer Meatpuppet

[Meatpuppet]

Kewl. Looking forward to see if it fixes the problem. I still think its a sizing issue, not hardness issue.

Just remember, if your brass is not expanded enough with a deep "M type" expander plug, it might not make a difference when you seat the boolet. Although, Ibejihead projectiles are hard enough that they might expand the brass while seating.

I actually get better accuracy with softer, coated cast boolets, but since I shoot much more 9mm each range session, its really not worth my time to go through the process. So I purchase commercial projectiles in 9mm. Everything else I cast, powdercoat or swage my own.

[414gates]

This was nagging at me, and I remembered that in fact I encountered this issue myself, around six years ago, I just never realised then what the actual problem was.

I used to shoot a lot of copper wash .38 special in a Security Six, so I thought I'd try shooting cast. I took my cast powder coated reloads to a club match, without testing them first. I was amazed at how inaccurate my cast bullets were. The barrel leading took a long time to clean up. Because of that experience, I stopped casting for handguns, and carried on with copper wash bullets. Around that time life happened and I quit competition handguns till the beginning of this year when I joined up again.

This year, I decided to go cast, but I still had copper wash bullets left over, so I cast a few thousand bullets for each caliber, and proceeded to shoot out the remaining copper wash bullets, which lasted me until a couple of months ago, and the last shoot of the year for me.

The last few weeks I've been meaning to reload those cast bullets. Then I read this thread, remembered what happened before, and I'm relieved I never started on them.

Because I was reloading copper wash bullets, I never needed to bell the case mouths. When I tried the .38 special cast then, I put only a slight bell on the mouth for the bullet to balance, then seated. I don't remember what the lead hardness was, but it must have been relatively soft to be swaged down by the brass.

I have the powder through expanders for the Hornady LnL, and I see that the expander plug can open the case mouth a bit wider and deeper , which is correct for cast bullets.

This time I'll test before the match.

[gloob]

I only have a couple revolvers, and they shoot cast bullets pretty decently, without much fuss, even using a stock expander. I get some faint fouling towards the muzzle half of the barrel, and I'm not sure that would improve without lapping out the choke point in the barrels where they're pressed into the frame. One day, I'll have to examine that closer. I've had random cases where deep-seating a wadcutter caused excessive swaging and bulging, but it was only a handful of headstamps I had picked up and I simply tossed them out.

9mm and 40 SW are the only 2 cartridges where I have experienced a significant, consistent, and persistent issue of detrimental case swaging.

In 9mm, I first tried using 356 sized commercial bullets. And I tried the 38SW expander trick, first. That reduced the fouling a bit. Then I bought an NOE 360/356 expander, and even though the expander measured exactly the same 356 as the LEE 38SW, it went much deeper into the case. Fouling barely occurred to the point I thought this might be as good as it gets. Then I went up to 358 commercial cast bullets, and the fouling completely went away, still using the same 356 NOE expander.

In 40 SW, I had dangerous levels of fouling in a Glock when using my stock LEE expander. I bought a Lyman M die in 40 SW, and that didn't really help, at all. Expander size was only 398. Lyman was nice enough to send me a 403 expander plug for a rifle, which I turned down to 401 with a 403 step. That works perfectly for me, and it eliminated the fouling.

In 9mm, I encountered another minor issue when using my own cast bullets. They measure 358 on average, but in some angles they measure 359, and other angle they measure 3575. They chamber fine in all my 9's, but I got some shavings when using the 360/356 NOE expander. I turned down my original Lyman 40sw expander to 362/358, and I've been happy ever since. I use the NOE 356 expander now for jacketed and cast 356. I use the 358 expander for 358 cast, no shavings, and they still plunk freely in all my 9's without any taper crimp.


So in my experience, the flare step must be at least 2 thous larger than the bullet to prevent shavings. 4 thous is visible, if you look close you can see a small gap between the case mouth and the bullet, but it still pretty tight.

As for the expander part, I get 100% neck tension even when using jacketed bullets that are 1 thous smaller than the expander. The case springs back by more than 1 thous, for sure, and less than 2 thous. If you have bad neck tension, it's the case to thin or work hardened, or it's your sizing die not tight enough to begin with.

When I use the 358, full depth expander, my 9mm cast cartridges look almost factory. There's barely any wasp-waist at all, to the cases.

[slickracer]

I added a 38S&W expander plug to my Lee powder thru expander die, works great.

[Thomas918]

I added a 38S&W expander plug to my Lee powder thru expander die, works great.

Since I also used copper plated 147gr a lot. I seat pretty deep and the 38s&w expander is what I use almost exclusively now. I have bought some NOE expanders for my .357 lead though

[jetinteriorguy]

Check out NOE’s new powder through expanders. I’m using one for my 9mm and once I got it adjusted properly it works great. I’d make one suggestion to make your life simple, just get the full setup including the Lee die. Some of the older Lee powder through die bodies are incompatible, I learned this the hard way and wound up buying things piecemeal and spent a whole lot of money unnecessarily. Also be sure to check available sizes from the drop down list for your proper size. If you have any questions before hand, just shoot them an email and they’ll call you back within a few hours. Great customer service and very high quality products.

[Forrest r]

9mm's and heavy/long bullets are always a balancing act. Expanders are only part of the equation & sorting headstamps will make a huge difference.

Several years ago I was interested in using hb bullets in a nm 1911 chambered in 9mm. My standard 9mm bullet (green) is a mp 125gr hp. The hb bullet I was interested in (red) is a lyman 35870.
https://i.imgur.com/V87WlTN.jpg

Not only did I test a couple different hb pin shapes/sizes/depths. I tested/made several different expander. This is what I ended up with for a home made expander.
https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg

Even with separating cases by mfg I kept getting fliers from the bases being swaged down. The hb bullet helped but it still couldn't overcome all the swaging issues that happen when seating long bodied bullets in the small 9mm cases.
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

No matter what I did the fliers were always there & I'm sure the fliers would of been worse if that was a solid based bullet.
That was as long of an expander I could use. Any longer and the cases have a bulge and wouldn't chamber.

The only thing I could do is have the bbl throated to allow for a longer oal/less bullet in the cases.

[Thomas918]

9mm's and heavy/long bullets are always a balancing act. Expanders are only part of the equation & sorting headstamps will make a huge difference.

Several years ago I was interested in using hb bullets in a nm 1911 chambered in 9mm. My standard 9mm bullet (green) is a mp 125gr hp. The hb bullet I was interested in (red) is a lyman 35870.
https://i.imgur.com/V87WlTN.jpg

Not only did I test a couple different hb pin shapes/sizes/depths. I tested/made several different expander. This is what I ended up with for a home made expander.
https://i.imgur.com/aFsP8TI.jpg

Even with separating cases by mfg I kept getting fliers from the bases being swaged down. The hb bullet helped but it still couldn't overcome all the swaging issues that happen when seating long bodied bullets in the small 9mm cases.
https://i.imgur.com/77VoPsa.jpg

No matter what I did the fliers were always there & I'm sure the fliers would of been worse if that was a solid based bullet.
That was as long of an expander I could use. Any longer and the cases have a bulge and wouldn't chamber.

The only thing I could do is have the bbl throated to allow for a longer oal/less bullet in the cases.

I think I will eventually move down to my 135gr mould soon. It comes out to 137gr after coating. It seems like it will be a little more forgiving and stretch out lead reserves. I'm not willing to do is enlarge the throat on my chambers because even though I will shoot lots of lead, my main load will be with plated bullets

[OS OK]

I like the Lee expander die but in reality...at best, it's a flaring die...it doesn't do a proper job of expanding the neck for the full length of the projectile.
End result...case neck swaging of soft & semi-hard cast depending on how 'work hardened' your cases are.
The more times you re-use a pistol case, the harder they get & the more the case neck will 'spring-back' after their neck expansion...consider that.

NOE makes expander plugs that fit the Lee die body & 'do' do a proper job & there's a huge selection to choose from according to your needs...

https://i.imgur.com/x5J2Yr5.jpg

This is a bit of a lengthy explanation of their 'use & how to understand'... the way NOE spec's the confusing numbers they use...

NOE Expanders (how to use, how to choose which size, and why)

https://youtu.be/e9waFJCbrt0

[Thomas918]

I recently took my loads to the range to test out using a slower powder to see if that affected the keyholing. CFE pistol at 3.7grs with my 150gr produced very accurate 125 power factor loads. I didn't notice any keyholing. I used a .361x.357 expander and used .356 sized bullets. They worked great. Had to fiddle with the expander to make sure I had rounds that chambered correctly but still had 3/100 that didn't fit my chamber gauge(my Canik Rival barrel in my case). I'm pretty happy and hopefully it wasnt a small sample size that leads me to believe that my problem has gone away

[gloob]

I used a .361x.357 expander and used .356 sized bullets. They worked great.

This is also my experiece in multiple calibers. That even if your expander is 1 thous LARGER your bullet size, you still get 100% neck tension.

I personally have transitioned to 358 bullets for my 9's, and I pulled the last of my 356 reloads the other day. I installed some gas checks on those bullets and crimped/sized the checks to 358. Then... I had a dilemma.

I have a 356 expander that I use for jacketed and 356 cast. I have a 358 expander I use for my 357+ reloads. Well, I used the 358 expander, and my bullets seated nice and tight, even though the expander is 2 over bullet diameter. But to be fair, the checks on these bullets are tall and probably cover more of the seated bearing surface than not.

I believe 2 over on the expander will be right at the point of messing up neck tension, normally. But the "1 under bullet diameter" that is frequently recommended is definitely smaller than necessary, and IF your case needs expanding, an expander that is any bit smaller than the bullet won't expand the case all the way and will leave some potential for case swaging. And it won't increase your neck tension, despite increasing seating force/effort. The idea is right; to keep a safety margin. But going even 1 over still leaves a safety margin and still gets full tension. For the accuracy nuts, even with a hard cast or jacketed bullet that won't get swaged, a case that is too small also reduces concentricity/straightness of bullet seating. The bullet finishes the expansion, and the bullet is free to wobble a little compared to an expander plug that is rigidly installed to the press.



Had to fiddle with the expander to make sure I had rounds that chambered correctly but still had 3/100 that didn't fit my chamber gauge(my Canik Rival barrel in my case). I'm pretty happy and hopefully it wasnt a small sample size that leads me to believe that my problem has gone away.

I'm not sure what fiddling you can do with an NOE expander. NOE expanders are pretty easy to set. As soon as you feel the expander step touching on your shortest of cases, you're done. Not sure what else you can do with it.

Yes, powder makes a difference, too. For faster powders you may need harder bullets and you might still not reach as high of a velocity before you have fouling/keyholing. Never used that powder. Unique is about as fast as I want to go for my cast 9mm, if I want max velocity. But my 9's are Glocks with a long throat, and I load my 9mm extra long.

I take it you're doing a taper crimp, to remove the flare? That's the one issue you can have when using off the shelf expanders that are "too big." The flare is more than necessary. Your flare is 5 over bullet diameter, using this expander, and IME you only need 2 if your cases have smooth mouths (chamfer them once, if necessary). Or 3, on rifle cases where you don't want to have to chamfer after each trim. (Or if your guns don't mind a bit of extra flare. My Glock 9's chamber a 362 flare on a 358 bullet, and I don't normally need to taper crimp them.)

[Thomas918]

This is also my experiece in multiple calibers. That even if your expander is 1 thous LARGER your bullet size, you still get 100% neck tension.

I personally have transitioned to 358 bullets for my 9's, and I pulled the last of my 356 reloads the other day. I installed some gas checks on those bullets and crimped/sized the checks to 358. Then... I had a dilemma.

I have a 356 expander that I use for jacketed and 356 cast. I have a 358 expander I use for my 357+ reloads. Well, I used the 358 expander, and my bullets seated nice and tight, even though the expander is 2 over bullet diameter. But to be fair, the checks on these bullets are tall and probably cover more of the seated bearing surface than not.

I believe 2 over on the expander will be right at the point of messing up neck tension, normally. But the "1 under bullet diameter" that is frequently recommended is definitely smaller than necessary, and IF your case needs expanding, an expander that is any bit smaller than the bullet won't expand the case all the way and will leave some potential for case swaging. And it won't increase your neck tension, despite increasing seating force/effort. The idea is right; to keep a safety margin. But going even 1 over still leaves a safety margin and still gets full tension. For the accuracy nuts, even with a hard cast or jacketed bullet that won't get swaged, a case that is too small also reduces concentricity/straightness of bullet seating. The bullet finishes the expansion, and the bullet is free to wobble a little compared to an expander plug that is rigidly installed to the press.




I'm not sure what fiddling you can do with an NOE expander. NOE expanders are pretty easy to set. As soon as you feel the expander step touching on your shortest of cases, you're done. Not sure what else you can do with it.

Yes, powder makes a difference, too. For faster powders you may need harder bullets and you might still not reach as high of a velocity before you have fouling/keyholing. Never used that powder. Unique is about as fast as I want to go for my cast 9mm, if I want max velocity. But my 9's are Glocks with a long throat, and I load my 9mm extra long.

I take it you're doing a taper crimp, to remove the flare? That's the one issue you can have when using off the shelf expanders that are "too big." The flare is more than necessary. Your flare is 5 over bullet diameter, using this expander, and IME you only need 2 if your cases have smooth mouths (chamfer them once, if necessary). Or 3, on rifle cases where you don't want to have to chamfer after each trim. (Or if your guns don't mind a bit of extra flare. My Glock 9's chamber a 362 flare on a 358 bullet, and I don't normally need to taper crimp them.)

Despite the guys on here running fat bullets for their chambers. I decided to just stick with .356 bullets because any larger it was a big battle to get things to chamber. Plus I didn't want to sort brass to make sure I got the headstamps with thin walls. It's too much work when trying to load a few thousand rounds. With my noe expander in my lee universal expanding die, I had to play with the depth of the plug to make sure it wasn't expanded deeper than the bullet is seated to. I found it doesn't bell the case per se but expands where I can set the bullet in by hand and make sure it's straight. The properly expanded case made OAL much more consistent too. I also use a regular Lee taper crimp die now to remove the "belling" and provide a slight crimp. I think the big difference was moving to a slower powder. I did all these steps with my other loads with n320 and was still getting some keyholing. The CFE loads haven't keyholed yet. I've only shot a little over 100 though so we shall see

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Noe has a new powder through expander that works well for 9mm. I ordered the .358" x .354" and the two pack of spacers for my Lee auto disk pro powder measure. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/powder-through-expanders/pistol-powder-through-expanders/35-pistol-expanders/9mm-luger-powder-through-expander-kit/ I see the spacer kit is out of stock now. I have a Lee classic turret that has four stations. I partially size and deprime and prime my sorted 9mm cases, Then I expand and charge the case with powder. Then seat, and then crimp. I have Dillon 9mm dies. So far it works very well. My boolits are sized to .357".

[gloob]

If you look up a few posts, you'll see OP has already bought a larger expander, and he has done it even better, IMO. Going with a 361/357.

If your case is too small in 9mm, I highly recommend you try an expander that is between 0.000-0.001 larger than the bullet, and compare resistance to setback for yourself. 354 still leaves a fair bit of work for the base of your 357 bullets, and I bet you find no discernable difference in bullet hold compared to using a 357-358 sized expander for a 357 bullet. But you will get minimal-to-zero bullet swaging with even soft cast bullets, lower seating force, and more concentric bullet seating/case-bulge.

The sooner you discover this one-time setup change, the better your stockpiled reloads are going to be.

[Thomas918]

Noe has a new powder through expander that works well for 9mm. I ordered the .358" x .354" and the two pack of spacers for my Lee auto disk pro powder measure. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/powder-through-expanders/pistol-powder-through-expanders/35-pistol-expanders/9mm-luger-powder-through-expander-kit/ I see the spacer kit is out of stock now. I have a Lee classic turret that has four stations. I partially size and deprime and prime my sorted 9mm cases, Then I expand and charge the case with powder. Then seat, and then crimp. I have Dillon 9mm dies. So far it works very well. My boolits are sized to .357".

If you can order the .360x.356 insert I think you will have better luck. I wish they offered a .360x.357 too. I'm having a hard time understanding what to order to make that powder through expander die insert to work with a Lee auto drum though. Do I have to get both spacers and over travel ring? I have the powder through die that came with my Lee die 9mm kit so I'm guessing that is the short charging die?

[jetinteriorguy]

The die in the Lee kit won’t work, at least none of the four calibers I have worked, including my 9mm. My suggestion based on my recent experience is just get the full kit they sell, it’ll save you a lot of headache and will work great with the Pro Disc. It costs a few more dollars this way but in the long run well worth it.