Sub-sonic for hunting...why?

[dverna]

I am wondering why this comes up from time to time.

I can see it being useful for shooting varmints and hogs where a hunter may engage multiple targets. I can see it for poaching...though no one will say that is the intent. Same for SHTF and addressing two legged varmints.

But why would someone hunting deer (or similar game) want a subsonic platform?

Seems like a lot of companies offer subsonic .300 BO. Just checked on Ammoseek and there are three pages of listings for subsonic only. (BTW, four pages of listing for all weights of .300 Win Mag). Are these targeted to the mall ninja's or do people actually hunt with them?

If velocity needs to be kept in the 1000 fps area, wouldn't a .45 ACP carbine be a better choice than the .300 BO?

[Kosh75287]

I don't hunt with a suppressor, but I kinda like the idea of harvesting meat with a firearm and NOT advertising it to my neighbors. I might have GREAT neighbors, but unless I'm in some way causing problems for them, it's not really any of their business. Why disturb them with the sounds of gunfire, if I don't have to?
If a suppressed weapon used on my land helps my neighbors to "mind their own business" on theirs, I can't really dismiss the notion out of hand.

I don't DISLIKE the idea of the .45 ACP carbine for (VERY) short range hunting. I have a load worked up for my .45 Colt caliber Rossi lever gun that launches a 260 gr. cast TC at 986 f/s and groups well out to 100 yards, though with some significant drop. It is by no means suppressed, but it IS rather quiet, especially compared to other revolver-caliber lever guns.

I guess there's also a "cool factor" for some folks, when hunting with a suppressor. I don't get it, but it seems to be present for many. Maybe they saw too many movies where both good guys and bad guys had silencers on their pistols, or something.

Except for the added expense and (perhaps) technical complications with the platform used, I'm hard-pressed to see much of a down-side to using suppressed weapons (for hunting).

[MarkP]

Probably targeted to Mall Ninjas, same reason you can buy a pickup with 475 hp and 1,050 lb-ft. That is more hp than semis had not too long ago, and the torque is getting closer to what semis had as well.

The original Whisper cartridge's had high BC projectiles and being sub-sonic did not shed velocity as quickly as super-sonic rounds. That was the initial appeal edging out the 45 ACP as a candidate.

[truckjohn]

The downside of subsonic is that the sound gets there before the bullet. Supersonic, the bullet hits well before the sound arrives.

That said, it often doesn't matter that much.

[Rapier]

The "original" 300 BO was the 300 Whisper, Bill at AAC did not like paying JD for the rights so created a slight change in the deminsions, called it the 300 BO and sold them with a marketing program that made the cartridge sound like a 300 Win Mag, which it is of course way different than.
The 300 W and BO is a social cartridge desgned with a specific use, eliminate sentries. I have seen the 400 grain copper projectiles for using body armor as part of the projectile. People do get lost in the bullet launch and forget that the impact is louder than a 22 long rifle.
But I do use a can and heavy weight subs to shoot wild hogs at night. I use 230s in the BO and my 358 guns with a can. Legal in FL to shoot hogs with a thermal and a suppressor at night, outside a preserve or state park, not legal to hunt game animals in that manner.

[BK7saum]

I will say that a lot of the subsonic ammunition is not designed to expand at 1000fps and should not be used for hunting. It can pencil through and not be immediately fatal. If it does tumble, there will be a devastating permanent wound cavity with a minor or no temporary wound cavity.

There are specialty bullet and ammo designed to be used for hunting: Lehigh defense, Maker bullets, Hornady Sub-x, and some others. These will expand at the 900-1000 fps velocities, and leave good wound cavities.

The run if the mill subsonic 220 OTM or 220 HPBT or 208 AMAX are bullets designed for supersonic velocities stuffed into the 300 blk case.

I have no problems with hunting with subsonic 300 BLK amd have done it myself with soft, cast hollowpointed bullets and with specialty bullets.

Just be aware that hunting with off the shelf subsonic ammunition, you may and probably are not using ammunition designed to expand.

The same principal here as many wildlife hunting regulations restrict FMJ bullets for hunting game.

The 220 OTM, HPBT and 208 AMAX behave like and are essentially full jacketed projectiles at subsonic velocities.

[missionary5155]

I have been a recurve bow hunter for lots of years. Never have needed ear protection. No need to insert an ear plug. I hear whats moving about.
Deer 20 feet away are never ''spooked" due to a loud noise.
Plus it is called Freedom.
So if my neighbor wants to use a "quiet firearm" to not scare the other game and save his hearing I am all for it.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm sure plenty of people hunt with them. I think it's just a natural progression. People get a suppressor, and then find out subsonic is that much quieter, and naturally you want to try it for hunting. My opinion is it doesn't make a ton of sense for big game hunting, being as a suppressed full power rifle round isn't that bad for your ears when you consider you might only take a handful of shots a year.

I can't find a downside to suppressors for hunting, other than cost of course. Subsonic bullets, I'm not as sure. With subsonic ammo I can't think of a reason why you would want it for varmints. Coyotes you want the range of a fast bullet. Things like prarie dogs, gophers, rabbits, etc. most just wear ear muffs. Maybe if you lived on the edge of town and could shoot in a safe direction, but didn't want any noise. I think deer hunting makes the most sense for subsonic ammo.

300 BO vs 45 ACP I don't think really matters. The 300 BO with long bullets is going to buck wind much better, but subsonic hunting is such a short range game, I don't think it really matters. 45 ACP isn't capable of any more than 300 BO. Something like 45-70 would make a lot of sense, shooting 400+ grain bullets, and already has a twist rate that will shoot them really well.

Where I'd love to see the most gain is in shotguns where you do take many, many shots in a day. Duck hunting for example can have shots right near you in the same boat, and a lot of them. You can't really wear hearing protection while duck hunting without issues. That's where we need suppressors and subsonic ammo. One day I hope...

[Mk42gunner]

I'm another one that doesn't really understand the need or perhaps more correctly, want, for subsonic ammo for hunting.

I can understand people that got sucked into the hype of the .300 Blackout wanting to justify it by hunting with it. As was pointed out it is a very slight redesign of the .300 Whisper: a round designed for eliminating sentries/ guard dogs.

Look back about a hundred years to the advent of high velocity .22 Long Rifle ammo. Within a generation it had killed off a plethora of subsonic rimfire small game cartridges.

Robert

[RugerFan]

I have a 458 SOCOM that I plan on getting a suppressor for. I have molds up 530 grains that will get plenty of penetration at 1,050 FPS and a .460" hole will bleed out fine. I like the idea of hunting quiet and not spooking animals. I can have a buddy hunting close by a good spot without ruining his hunt when I shoot. It's just nice getting in and out of the woods and being low impact.

[BK7saum]

I have both supersonic and subsonic loads with me when I hunt. If i have a coyote or pig come in while in the deer stand, I shoot with the subsonic load, and save the supers for deer. I have shot a sub and had deer walking in just a coupke minutes later. And also shot while deer were present with sub and they didn't spook badly.

[popper]

Agree Don, supressor on supers would be nice, I have no need for subs. Many have lost game to subs also.

[M-Tecs]

I have a 458 SOCOM that I plan on getting a suppressor for. I have molds up 530 grains that will get plenty of penetration at 1,050 FPS and a .460" hole will bleed out fine. I like the idea of hunting quiet and not spooking animals. I can have a buddy hunting close by a good spot without ruining his hunt when I shoot. It's just nice getting in and out of the woods and being low impact.

I am in the process of doing the same with a 458 SOCOM.

I am also going to suppress one of my prairie/coyote dog rifles. These will only be used with supersonic loads. With PD's the louder the report the further they spook into the holes. With coyotes it increases the odds for additional follow-up shots. I have had 6 coyotes come in at once one time and two are three at a time is common.

I am sure at some point in time I will end up with a 300 BO in a trade or super good deal, but I really have zero interest in the 300 BO as a cartridge.

[Texas by God]

A few hog hunters that I know tried subsonic and they have all gone back to regular strength. I used a suppressed 6.5 Grendel with regular ammo to take a nocturnal hog- it was quiet enough to not alarm the neighbors 500 yards away.
As someone who has killed crows with Colibris in the city- I do understand the need for quiet hunting.[emoji16]

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[BK7saum]

I can attest to the fact that you will not be able to kill more than a couple hogs with suppressed subsonic shots before they spook and leave the area.

On at least two occasions, I have shot one hog and at the sound of the impact the other hogs in the group startled and moved 5 to 10 yards, then stopped momentarily for a second shot/second hog down. After that, they bolted back to the thick cover.

If you have never heard an impact into flesh from a subsonic projectile, it is defintely not quiet. Contrary to the myth, you cannot shoot an animal out of a group without the others hearing the impact and becoming startled.

[Milky Duck]

Where I'd love to see the most gain is in shotguns where you do take many, many shots in a day. Duck hunting for example can have shots right near you in the same boat, and a lot of them. You can't really wear hearing protection while duck hunting without issues. That's where we need suppressors and subsonic ammo. One day I hope...
the suppressed shotguns are out there,they have been for years.... subsonic ammunition has been around too,but it sucks in killing power.

Ive tootooed with subsonic loads in both the .308w and the x39 lots of fun,great for plinking,great for small game AWESOME for the finishing off shot at close range,no ringing ears of blood/brain splatter.
I would shoot small/medium game at close range in open country with chest shots where animal can be watched and recovered. its like poking an arrow through them...similar hole and same little amount of shock transpher.

[M-Tecs]

If you have never heard an impact into flesh from a subsonic projectile, it is defintely not quiet. Contrary to the myth, you cannot shoot an animal out of a group without the others hearing the impact and becoming startled.

Arrow impacts are surprising loud and hearing the bullet impact game with standard high velocity rifles is normal once the distance gets out there a bit. Same for shooting prairie dogs. If you are away from your shooting partner, you can clearly tell a hit from a miss based on the bullet impact noise.

[Geezer in NH]

Screw you on the poaching comment. Sorry as most times you are right. this time no. Poaching is bad but being quite is not poaching. My friend is the Police Chief calls on shooting in our rural town is a pain to him. Town of 1350 residents

Sound is the reason for complaints. Quiter means less complaints Get it now.

Subsonic keeps noise down Most complaints are someone's shooting. In my town they hear a gun go off the bitch even when it is a mile or more away.

Quite is better. Folks like you make the fear of quite?????????????

All is moot if you are just trolling

[Daekar]

I think a lot of folks bought 300BO rifles with the idea that they would be able to buy subsonic ammo that expands, which does exist now. They seem to forget that they are now using a cartridge with pistol - level energy, and the marketing doesn't help. I'm sure there are folks who can take advantage of the BC benefits of the 0.308 bullets, but I would say they are few. My buddy has a 300BO, and his son took his first deer with it this year... with a 110gr super.

I would rather have a 45 caliber subsonic rifle if I needed something punchier than my 357 subs.

[dverna]

Screw you on the poaching comment. Sorry as most times you are right. this time no. Poaching is bad but being quite is not poaching. My friend is the Police Chief calls on shooting in our rural town is a pain to him. Town of 1350 residents

Sound is the reason for complaints. Quiter means less complaints Get it now.

Subsonic keeps noise down Most complaints are someone's shooting. In my town they hear a gun go off the bitch even when it is a mile or more away.

Quite is better. Folks like you make the fear of quite?????????????

All is moot if you are just trolling

Cool down Geezer.

I know quite a few people who poach. Poaching may not happen where you live, but it is not a rare event where I live. And if someone is inclined to poach, a subsonic round makes a lot of sense.

Poaching occurs in remote areas. Even if a shot is heard, it does not get reported. If it was reported, response time would be over 30 minutes.

Until I moved here 10 years ago, I was not "educated" on rural ways...at least the ways of this rural area.

Everyone I know who poaches has a family history of doing it. BTW, it is called "window shopping"; and the road to my place goes by a prime area called "The Market Field".

Back in the old days it was how poor folks put meat on the table year round. That is how it became a tradition with some families. I was told a story that happened decades ago. A DNR officer caught a guy poaching a deer. The officer knew the guy and knew he was trying to feed his family. The officer let the guy go.

BTW, not trolling. Just trying to understand why anyone would waste money to take game with an underpowered platform. I am not buying the "do not disturb the neighbor" rationale. If someone is taking game legally, there is a limited time to rifle shoot deer where I live. Everyone knows when deer season starts. Police and DNR would not respond to "shots" if some fool called them complaining about their neighbor shooting game. And if I had a neighbor that stupid, I would care about their "feelings".

[megasupermagnum]

the suppressed shotguns are out there,they have been for years.... subsonic ammunition has been around too,but it sucks in killing power.

Ive tootooed with subsonic loads in both the .308w and the x39 lots of fun,great for plinking,great for small game AWESOME for the finishing off shot at close range,no ringing ears of blood/brain splatter.
I would shoot small/medium game at close range in open country with chest shots where animal can be watched and recovered. its like poking an arrow through them...similar hole and same little amount of shock transpher.

This is one area the USA is way behind a lot of the world. Suppressors are now mainstream for rifles, but you still have to pay the government extortion and a long waiting period so they aren't super common outside of the "gun guy" community. Suppressors in the USA are mostly screw on rifle and pistol cans. There is only one single shotgun suppressor from SilencerCo. It's not bad, but it's still a big muffler on the end of your shotgun. Plus it can only attach by using the correct choke tube thread adapter. It isn't the end of the world but now you #1 need a barrel threaded for choke tubes (which admittedly most people do), and #2 you have to buy their adapters for different chokes. They do not offer a turkey choke, and they also have some warnings against steel shot in some of them.

I hope I don't hate myself too much for saying this, but this is where Europe has it more figured out than we do with shrouded shotgun barrels. It's already easy to buy shotgun barrels, almost all single barrel guns (pumps, semi-auto, single shot, etc.) have interchangeable barrel. For example Remington could sell the heck out of a shrouded 870 barrel here, yet nothing is on the market, and I don't know any gunsmith who does such a thing. Of course with unlimited money, the sky is the limit.

As for subsonic ammo sucking in killing power, you are dead wrong. If you are interested in learning how to make it work I can go into detail as I have done a lot of testing in this area. I'll just leave this comparison calculated by KYP ballistics. These loads are near equivalents, yet one is subsonic, recoil is about the same, actually a bit less for the subsonic.

1 1/8 oz #6 lead at 1250 fps- 253 pellets - 1.55" calc. gel penetration at 40 yards
1 3/8 oz #5 lead at 1050 fps - 239 pellets - 1.63" calc. gel penetration at 40 yards.

[quilbilly]

Subsonic lacking killing power???? I will have to send a memo to all those deer that we ate after being hit with a 130 gr 45 cal PRB from my muzzleloader at 80-100 yards. The PRB gets launched at about 1500 but goes subsonic very, very quickly. You are right about small caliber relatively light boolits, however.

[Milky Duck]

it doesnt lack killing power.....its ALL about bullet PLACEMENT as it has stuff all shock power at subsonic velocity...its VERY similar to a small broadhead....

one of the most interesting suppressed shotguns was a U/O that was heavily ported and had large external suppressor over both barrels,almost size of drainpipe on side of your house.... BUT because you not allowed to use it on waterfowl...and its quieter but not super quiet unless you use subsonic loads which kill no where near as well,it sort of fizzled.
there is a company here making suppressed single barrel guns now and they popular with pig hunters for shooting bailed pigs at close range... the lack of noise/reduced noise is ideal for dogs hearing.

[megasupermagnum]

it doesnt lack killing power.....its ALL about bullet PLACEMENT as it has stuff all shock power at subsonic velocity...its VERY similar to a small broadhead....

one of the most interesting suppressed shotguns was a U/O that was heavily ported and had large external suppressor over both barrels,almost size of drainpipe on side of your house.... BUT because you not allowed to use it on waterfowl...and its quieter but not super quiet unless you use subsonic loads which kill no where near as well,it sort of fizzled.
there is a company here making suppressed single barrel guns now and they popular with pig hunters for shooting bailed pigs at close range... the lack of noise/reduced noise is ideal for dogs hearing.

I'd love to see that here. There is not a single manufacturer in the USA making barrels or complete guns like that. Again, if you are interested in learning how to make subsonic shotgun loads that will perform every bit as good as anything else on game, just PM me.

[gumbo333]

405 gr cast subsonic in a 45/70. Ya, it works.

[John in WYO]

Needing hearing protection for shotguns?

https://www.metrogun.com/

[oldcanadice]

My son-in law owned and now runs Discrete Ballistics in Wyoming that specializes in subsonic hunting ammo. It's all in the bullet and he has several bullet patents that make for darn deadly stuff. He and daughter have taken their deer this year with both 300 blackout and the new 9.8 or whatever it is. Both suppressed rifles. Crazy deadly stuff at anything like decent ranges and you don't kill your ears in the process like I did with pistol shooting in my earlier times.

[megasupermagnum]

Needing hearing protection for shotguns?

https://www.metrogun.com/

Yeah, I'd just carry a 8' long spear and use that instead.

[M-Tecs]

The only subsonic I have shot deer with have been 45 Colt with a soft bullet. They were very effective. For big game it's all about energy transfer as it relates to wound damage. For cast I have never taken big game with less than a 35 cal. I have taken deer with 270, 338 and 375 jacketed bullets at 2,700 to 3,000 FPS with bullets designed for much heavier game. They failed to expand or create significant wound damage. Recovers were difficult at best.

With bullets that properly expand the 300BO should get the job done at sub velocities. With bullets that don't expand or transfer energy via a flat point I would think they would be the same or less effective than the high velocity nonexpanding spitzers that proved to be very ineffective from my actual experience.

[versa-06]

Through the years I've learned that a heavy for caliber boolit that will fully penetrate, malleable alloy, flat meplat, & slower velocity gets best results in my opinion, because I don't want blood-shot meat. Always had to throw away to the dogs meat ruined by excessive velocity combined with over expansion. I like quiet loads for many reasons which most have been spoken of already, including burning less powder (Tite Wad).

[Photog]

The ONLY reason for 300BO being popular is that it feeds in an AR15 with only a barrel change. Otherwise, a 158gr .38 special out of a lever gun is a better subsonic hunting round. At 100yds, the drop is only a few inches, big meplat for the caliber, easily tailored to your rifle/speed, and you get expansion with soft pistol bullets. I just sold my 300BO reloading dies and brass, as it is eclipsed by 30-30, 7.62x39 when supersoninc, and 38/357, 45acp, and 22lr when subsonic. Yes 300BO runs in a AR, but its mostly hype.

[Moleman-]

I've deer hunted the past 7 seasons with a suppressor, but I use standard velocity ammo. The gun is still quite loud from the sonic boom, but is considered hearing safe.

[megasupermagnum]

The ONLY reason for 300BO being popular is that it feeds in an AR15 with only a barrel change...

That is an astoundingly good reason for being popular. Other than the whole 300 Whisper thing, 300 BO is one of the coolest things going for the AR15 if you ask me. Sure, it isn't quite to the level of 30-30 at the top end, but it is pretty close. There's nothing wrong with a 38 special, but there's nothing wrong with the 300 BO either. One works great in a lever rifle. The other works great in the most popular rifle in America.

[megasupermagnum]

I've deer hunted the past 7 seasons with a suppressor, but I use standard velocity ammo. The gun is still quite loud from the sonic boom, but is considered hearing safe.

Not hearing safe, but it's better. I don't think you are going to damage your hearing any more from that than running a chainsaw without ear plugs once in a while.

[versa-06]

I made the dreadful mistake of shooting a ported short barreled 357 w- full house load. Permanent damage to my right ear after only 1 round. I Like Quiet!

[elmacgyver0]

It is not a matter of "need", I don't hunt much anymore so I really do not "need" to have guns.
I do kind of see red when I hear people saying what I "need" or don't "need", we get enough of that baloney from the Democrats.

[versa-06]

Would you need a firearm if someone breached your home? Just Curious?

[versa-06]

P.S. Hard core conservative here!!! versa-06

[M-Tecs]

The 2nd was not written for hunting. The "need" for firearms is to keep the "leaders" inline.

[elmacgyver0]

Would you need a firearm if someone breached your home? Just Curious?

Being I have three of them on my person it is kind of academic.
At the moment I don't need a fire extinguisher either, but I do have them.

[Milky Duck]

well today we went for a quiet stroll up a local riverbed track...popular walking track at times but a bit out of the way,a few animals around...clearings along track were covered in good grass and any shots would be under 100 yrds....good place for a VERY early morning stroll with a quiet rifle....one of the places where the quieter the better and the animals would mostly be pests ,so an instant kill not so important...if they went 50 yards into scrub before expiring to rot away...well and good.
so YES there is uses for subsonics.

[Orchard6]

I’ve been hunting whitetail with subsonic 300 blackout for years. Heck I’m using a Lee c309-200 bullet cast of coww at 1070 fps that by all conventional wisdom should be a very poor choice with its relatively round nose, but I’ve taken 8 or 9 deer and my kids have each taken a few with that bullet. It works with almost boring regularity. Put the bullet through the shoulders, the deer kicks, runs 40 yards and falls over. My kids have all taken their first deer with this cartridge because it’s has no recoil or loud muzzle blast. It sounds like the naysayers here haven’t actually tried hunting with subsonic rounds. No a 300 blackout isn’t a 300 Winchester magnum, but inside 100 yards it works and with a good bullet choice it works quite well.

[Bigslug]

I think the question could easily be reversed: why would anyone want a supersonic boomer where it isn't necessary?

For me, it's moot: living in the West where the ranges are longer, and in Cali where suppressors aren't an option anyway. BUT for those folks living in those Eastern areas where they have to shoo the whitetails out of their petunia patch with a broom, a 100-yard capable subsonic meat-stick that doesn't bother the neighbors makes a fair bit of sense. If you're already dealing with an obnoxious shotgun-only regulation, it probably wouldn't be hard to get some language to legalize such a rifle, which has the rainbow trajectory the spirit of the shotgun laws were written in anyway.

Seems to me the ideal tool for this is a Marlin lever gun in .44 Mag shooting 275-300 grain slugs at 1050. Only problem for the industry is all the Fudds who insist on their lever guns being blued, wood-stocked, non-scoped and otherwise traditional. Never mind the fact that Winchester made 1890's and Low Walls with threaded ends prior to the NFA. The Ruger 77-44 would also do the trick - since the powder charges will be light, the short magazine is not an obstacle to a workable subsonic COAL.

And as long as you're rocking subsonic, the can on the end of the barrel is really just the cherry on the sundae. 9mm out of a 16" Ruger PC Carbine isn't much louder than .22's - a slow .44 out of something in the 20"-24" range would likely be the same.

[Digital Dan]

Interesting conversation it is. Spent a lot of my life listening to the booms and gave it little thought until after my retirement. Moved to a new place and one of the first things that happened was wild hog rooting up the yard. It led to an interesting discovery. Without a care about imagined suffering I pulled the trigger in the front yard and porky fell over dead as a stump. I was puzzled. You see, I had used my Contender Carbine with the short match barrel and loaded it with CB shorts. The result was contrary to all I'd been led to believe over the years about what was required to take big game.

To make the story a little longer, over the next couple of years I put down another couple dozen with that rig, all one shot kills. It came to pass that a fella from the Fish and Wildlife Commission had seen me in action on one occasion and offered me a blanket permit on the adjacent 1,400 acres of state preserve land with only a single caveat. I had to use RF ammo to avoid riling the neighborhoods which bordered the preserve on two sides. The rest was bounded by a canal/river/Gulf of Mexico. Well, ALRIGHTY!

It was about 8 years before I got any help by bringing a neighbor in on the show. By that time I had killed over 150 hogs, all save one dead from a single shot. A couple were put to rest with a 10/22, just for amusement. All of the pork went to a facility that was in the reform business with wayward punks. I dropped them off, the boys skinned and butchered. They near crapped their undies the day I dropped off 5 hogs in one load. 3 shoats of about 60# and a boar and sow of 200-250#. They were shot without taking a step. The 4th shoat finally figured out that something was wrong and ran off before I could reload.

The undercover where this took place is very dense. Average shots were in the range of 10-20 yards. Longest shot I've taken there was a measured 36 yards, that being the one shot in my front yard. Somewhere around 40 of the hogs were full size, ranging from 200-300#.

So, in answer to the original question, why shoot subsonic? Simple response is that it works and causes a lot less commotion. Does this mean I don't shoot fast stuff? Not at all. I tickle the 3,000 fps realm with several rifles and will use them in other circumstances. That said, IF you can put the bullet where it needs to go, horsepower is irrelevant. It isn't that hard to do.

[Larry Gibson]

Guess I'll put in my 2 cents worth..... I've started shooting suppressed weapons in '66 while in the Army. Guess you could say I "hunted" with them back in a land far away back then also. I started using a 30 cal suppresser a few years later for sport hunting. I used it with the .308W, 30-30, 30 Carbine, 223 Rem and 22LR. I mostly used the 311041 HP and the 311299HP in the 308W and 30-30. In the 30 Carbine the 311316HP were cast of very soft alloy, mostly 30-1 or 20-1 GC'd and lubed with Javelina. Ran at 1050 - 1100 fps they remained about as quiet as a 22 cal pellet rifle.

I found them to be effective on deer and vermin when the ranges were kept close, usually sub 100 yards and mostly less than 50 yards. As already discussed, bullet placement was paramount. Hunting/shooting from a fixed position/stand/hide was also essential. I learned early on that "still" hunting was not a good idea because one cannot precisely place the shot on moving game, even at close range, precisely enough with the low power sub-sonic loads.

I've also hunted deer and vermin with full powered jacketed loads with the same cartridges. Whether or not the animal shot heard the ballistic crack was a moot point. If multiple shots at multiple animals were to be had I never found the ballistic crack to actually spook them off. It is the boom of the muzzle blast that does, and that boom is eliminated with a proper suppresser. Most often it confuses the other animals as they don't understand what it is or really realize where it came from. I've marked a deer's ear only to have them run into each other at the 'crack". It is almost impossible to get a direction the shot came from when only the "crack" is heard. I've had coyote run at me confused, just stand there or run over to the shot one to see what was wrong with it. Sometimes they'll jump and trot a few steps, but they stop to look around. Shot over the back of one at 600 yards and he started a sneak on the bullet impact.

I also learned over the years that larger caliber bullets at the same sub-sonic velocities always killed a bit quicker. Seems a large hole going in trumps the same size hole going out...... Thus, I built a 45 ACP on a M98 Mauser action using a Rhineland conversion. I run a GC'd 245 gr 230 gr 452490HP cast of 30-1 at 1050 fps out of it. It is deadly to say the least.

307639

[Milky Duck]

Well put Larry and Dan..well put indeed...tis all about shot placement.

[Grayone]

Guess I'll put in my 2 cents worth..... I've started shooting suppressed weapons in '66 while in the Army. Guess you could say I "hunted" with them back in a land far away back then also. I started using a 30 cal suppresser a few years later for sport hunting. I used it with the .308W, 30-30, 30 Carbine, 223 Rem and 22LR. I mostly used the 311041 HP and the 311299HP in the 308W and 30-30. In the 30 Carbine the 311316HP were cast of very soft alloy, mostly 30-1 or 20-1 GC'd and lubed with Javelina. Ran at 1050 - 1100 fps they remained about as quiet as a 22 cal pellet rifle.

I found them to be effective on deer and vermin when the ranges were kept close, usually sub 100 yards and mostly less than 50 yards. As already discussed, bullet placement was paramount. Hunting/shooting from a fixed position/stand/hide was also essential. I learned early on that "still" hunting was not a good idea because one cannot precisely place the shot on moving game, even at close range, precisely enough with the low power sub-sonic loads.

I've also hunted deer and vermin with full powered jacketed loads with the same cartridges. Whether or not the animal shot heard the ballistic crack was a moot point. If multiple shots at multiple animals were to be had I never found the ballistic crack to actually spook them off. It is the boom of the muzzle blast that does, and that boom is eliminated with a proper suppresser. Most often it confuses the other animals as they don't understand what it is or really realize where it came from. I've marked a deer's ear only to have them run into each other at the 'crack". It is almost impossible to get a direction the shot came from when only the "crack" is heard. I've had coyote run at me confused, just stand there or run over to the shot one to see what was wrong with it. Sometimes they'll jump and trot a few steps, but they stop to look around. Shot over the back of one at 600 yards and he started a sneak on the bullet impact.

I also learned over the years that larger caliber bullets at the same sub-sonic velocities always killed a bit quicker. Seems a large hole going in trumps the same size hole going out...... Thus, I built a 45 ACP on a M98 Mauser action using a Rhineland conversion. I run a GC'd 245 gr 230 gr 452490HP cast of 30-1 at 1050 fps out of it. It is deadly to say the least.

307639

Thank you Mr. Gibson, I always learn something from your posts. Many excellent points!

[Moleman-]

My experience mirrors that of Mr Gibson in respect to shooting game with supersonic ammo and a suppressor. Often the deer will look around and try to pinpoint where the shot came from right up until they drop. I did have one shot with a 450BM take off running, but it ran straight towards me and dropped about 20 yards away from my stand. I believe it was trying to make it into a thick brushy patch next to my stand. The one this year was with a .40 wildcat running a 195 barnes at about 2650fps. 90yd heart shot, buck jumped and kicked and trotted 20' to the next group of trees and looked around. Turned around walked back to the tree it was shot near, looked around again. Started walking again and dropped. Whole thing took just a few seconds.

[M-Tecs]

I was just speaking to a rancher friend of mine about his new rifle/night scope/suppressor. Last year he lost 58 calves to coyotes during calving time. Normally he loses 15 to 20 out of about 600. During calving time he brings them into calving pens by the house. For this year he has a suppressed AR match rifle with night vision. He will be shooting 40 grain V-Max's so ricochets shouldn't be an issue. Hopefully I can make it up to help with the night watch. Hopefully the suppressor will be quiet enough to not spook the cattle. The pens are about 300 yards square.

Not subsonic but should be effective.

[badwolf]

Dan did you use the CB 29gr bullet? Head shots?

[Digital Dan]

Dan did you use the CB 29gr bullet? Head shots?

Yes. CCI CB Shorts. Two styles of shots taken. 1) Hogs less than about 125# shot thru the neck broadside to clip the vertebrae. 2) bigger hogs, or if the opportunity arises, between the eyes. It may surprise, but the CB will fully penetrate neck and spine on the first option.

https://i.imgur.com/45NsJo9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/S4s0u8c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lw7duvS.jpg

[popper]

suppressor will be quiet enough to not spook the cattle
Interesting. several yrs ago we were shooting in a pasture, other pasture had cattle at the other side. After many shots, the cattle were at the fence divider, watching what was going on. Then they moseyed back to the other side.

[Jim22]

A suppressor on a supersonic rifle doesn't help much. In most cases even with suppressor the report still exceeds 100 dB by a margin. Subsonic is another thing. The report is naturally less loud. It's why I kep handloads for my rolling block .32 S&W Long to 1,000 fps. With ear protection I can tell the difference betweek subsonic and supersonic loads during testing. It's significant. With my tinnitus I would rather not make it worse.

Jim

[BK7saum]

A suppressor on a supersonic rifle doesn't help much. In most cases even with suppressor the report still exceeds 100 dB by a margin. Subsonic is another thing. The report is naturally less loud. It's why I kep handloads for my rolling block .32 S&W Long to 1,000 fps. With ear protection I can tell the difference betweek subsonic and supersonic loads during testing. It's significant. With my tinnitus I would rather not make it worse.

Jim

Most supersonic suppressed dB levels are 120-130 dB, which is just under the reported OSHA safe hearing threshold of 140 dB.

8hr hearing safe thresholds start around 85 dB. Exposure dB levels are based upon duration of exposure.

I disagree. A suppressor on a rifle reduces the intensity of the blast/report by many many times. unsuppressed 308 runs about 168 dB, suppressed 133 dB. As the dB scale is logarithmic, consider that the intensity doubles approximately every 3dB. so the intensity is reduced much much more that the numbers indicate at first glance.

[megasupermagnum]

Absolutely. A suppressed 308 with full power ammo is way better. It is still damaging your hearing, but it is so much better than unsuppressed. You can take a shot or two and it doesn't even ring your ears.

[Larry Gibson]

A good suppressor with supersonic ammunition will suppress the muzzle blast almost entirely. What is heard by the shooter is the crack of the bullet as it exits the suppressor. That crack sound is moving away from you. The intensity of the "crack" is dependent upon the velocity, the caliber of the bullet and the shape of the bullet. The intensity of the "crack is also dependent on the physical conditions when shooting. If in the field shooting across open terrain the sound intensity is much less than when shooting in a built up area. Shooting from a bench at the range with berms and, in particular, with overhead coover can really intensify the "crack". It is that "crack" that sound meters measure and as BK7saum mentions with a reduction of approximately 3 db's the sound level is cut in half. The 30 - 35 db reduction most good suppressers offer is the suppression of the muzzle blast.

With my .223 suppressor on my AR with full bore jacketed loads I actually here the recoil spring going "twang" and the action functioning. The "crack" is not that loud at all, less than unsuppressed sub-sonic 22LR. On my 22LR semi's with sub-sonic ammo all I hear is the action functioning. With supersonic jacketed loads in my suppressed .308W there is no muzzle blast, the crack is loader but, again, that sound is moving away fast. It is very satisfying to hear the "thwack" of the bullet hitting steel at 300 out to 1000+ yards. With sub-sonic ammo my 22 cal pellet rifle is louder.

Then there is the 45 ACP M98 w/suppressor pictured in previous post. With any subsonic load the sound I hear is the same as when dry firing the M98....just the striker falling.

[stubshaft]

Yes. CCI CB Shorts. Two styles of shots taken. 1) Hogs less than about 125# shot thru the neck broadside to clip the vertebrae. 2) bigger hogs, or if the opportunity arises, between the eyes. It may surprise, but the CB will fully penetrate neck and spine on the first option.

https://i.imgur.com/45NsJo9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/S4s0u8c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lw7duvS.jpg

I can confirm the efficiency of the CB caps and 22's from shorts to Magnums. I have killed hundreds of hogs using them while hunting with dogs and/or stalking them. Shots were generally measured in feet, and I don't remember losing ANY of them. Bang, flop!

[dverna]

For the deer or two I harvest a year, a full power .308 load with jacketed bullets is cheap and effective. I can make a less than perfect shot and reach out to 400 yards if I need to. Sub-sonic means keeping ranges too short for where and how I hunt. My shortest shot on deer over the last 10 years has been 125 yards.

[megasupermagnum]

For the deer or two I harvest a year, a full power .308 load with jacketed bullets is cheap and effective. I can make a less than perfect shot and reach out to 400 yards if I need to. Sub-sonic means keeping ranges too short for where and how I hunt. My shortest shot on deer over the last 10 years has been 125 yards.

I think that is where you aren't understanding. You are only thinking about this in your shoes. Not everyone only hunts a couple deer a year off their back porch. In your case you could just as easily put on ear muffs before the shot. There's a lot of hunting out there that will damage your hearing quickly. In my case it is duck hunting. Someone else might be a hog hunter. In both instances ear muffs or other style hearing protection isn't practical at all. Good quality hearing aids for hunting like Tetra are getting better, but they still aren't fantastic, and they are around $1300. That same $1300 can buy a suppressor, and nothing beats your real ears for hearing.

[Mk42gunner]

To me we are talking of two very different, but at the same time similar options in this thread.

On the one hand we have sub sonic velocities for hunting. Be it with a handgun or downloaded rifle.

On the other hand, we are talking of suppressors, either sub sonic or full power.

Like it or not, there is big difference in killing power between a <1100 fps projectile and one that is launched at two to three times that speed.

While I firmly believe that a .45-70 with almost any lead bullet at subsonic velocities will be enough gun for anything on the North American continent, I am not so sure of say a .300 Blackout.

I thought about getting a rifle .300 Blackout for a while. Until I did some comparisons in loading manuals. My conclusions were that the Blackout closely resembles that .32-40, a round that most people think is too small for general deer hunting today.

Robert

[megasupermagnum]

I've never heard anyone complain about the 32-40. Maybe you are thinking of the 32-20? Admittedly the 32-20 is not a powerhouse, but for most of its existence it has been considered a perfectly adequate deer cartridge. Today it is often loaded to around 30 carbine and 327 federal levels, and they work fine for deer. Again at that point we are talking supersonic, but also not very heavy bullets. A 300 BO at 1050 fps and a 200+ grain bullet is a fine deer cartridge... within its limitations. Provided you get good expansion, it does not lack wound channel or penetration. It does not have either in excess, but it does work.

Consider this, today airgun hunting is growing in popularity quite fast due to the bigger and more powerful airguns now being easy to find and not overly expensive. They share a lot in common with the subsonic firearms, both are liked for the lack of noise, and general ease in shooting. Quite thorough testing has been done with airguns, on whitetails specifically. A 150 grain bullet at 800 fps is considered adequate, about like a 38 special handgun. I will agree that when it comes to subsonics I would think bigger is a much better choice. I would think a 450 bushmaster, or even a 50 beowulf would be ideal for big game hunting in the AR15 subsonic.

America loves its 30 calibers though. And yes, people really are buying 300 BO subsonic and are really hunting with them with good effect.

[BadgerShooter]

I guess when I decide I'm going to take an animal's life, I am not interested in seeing how close I can come to not killing it. I want to use plenty of power and a good bullet to quickly and humanely end that animal's life. Sure you can use a small gun, plenty of deer have been taken with 22LR through the years, but things don't always go perfect when hunting. Unless you are shooting from a rest out of a stand over a feeder with tame deer and can control all the variables, the lighter the caliber, the more likely you are going to be tracking, extending the suffering of the animal you decided to kill and threatening neighbor relations tracking deer off your property. Obviously you can make a bad shot with a powerful rifle, but that power gives you that bit of extra edge to kill cleanly. I really enjoy playing with subsonic and other interesting cartridges, but when it comes to taking life, I'm going to use plenty of gun. YMMV

[afish4570]

Most of the deer hunters I have hunted with use traditional deer rifles 3030,3006 270 308 new 6.5 cals,303 etc.) Also most don't spend the time and money to become decent shots or are very diligent in tracking. Too often they shoot and if the deer doesn't stagger, fall down they consider it a miss. If they do look for blood trail they aren't very dedicated in effort or are looking for alot of blood. Lot of time blood doesn't start until the deer run off aways. Heavy woods areas with lots of leaves aren't like tracking in snow. Here in NY & Pa. ranges are under 100 yds Some property is small in acreage and neighbors are not friendly to hunters tracking deer on their property or are city people who bought the land as a 2nd home and hunting themselves. I have shot several deer with with 4570 380 gr FP bullets at 1500 fps, they penetrate well and leave a decent blood trail. Never found a boolit and expect little expansion at 70 yds or so,. My pistol boolits in 44 mag were 290 gr Keith with similar results at 40 yds. at 1100 fps Just thoughts of an older guys experience. Hunting is not like shooting deer on a culling permit. Deer are alert and spooky during the rut and hunting season. The reason we went from slow moving subsonic boolits to higher velocity ones were better success and ability to shoot at longer ranges, Less wounded animals and lost ones due to poor hits too. afish4570

[wolfdog]

Idk, I bet if I put a 200ish grain bullet through both lungs of a deer at subsonic speeds, it's not climbing out of my freezer.

[versa-06]

Generally speaking a good hit with cast can be as good as jacketed or close. No it does not have the shock of a 2700-3100 FPS bullet, But good placement Lung, Heart, or CNS. Drops in short order. But as far as mean ole neighbors, a visit for Christ may be in order to establish that neighbor that he spoke of.

[BadgerShooter]

After 48 years of shooting whitetails, I have settled on the 45-70 for out to 150 or so. I swage a soft lead 350 grain paper patch bullet and run it at full Marlin pressures. It's an utter smasher. For past 150, I use the 300 Win with 200-225 grain bullets. My farm butts up to a large marsh that is miles across, of springs and floating bog so ranges can get long. As long as you keep your shots in the front half, nothing has walked away from it. I like the tracking jobs that are 2 feet straight down. Believe me, I've made my mistakes and have hopefully learned from them. These two calibers and loads have been working the best of anything I have used to this point and in my environment. YMMV

[wolfdog]

After 48 years of shooting whitetails, I have settled on the 45-70 for out to 150 or so. I swage a soft lead 350 grain paper patch bullet and run it at full Marlin pressures. It's an utter smasher. For past 150, I use the 300 Win with 200-225 grain bullets. My farm butts up to a large marsh that is miles across, of springs and floating bog so ranges can get long. As long as you keep your shots in the front half, nothing has walked away from it. I like the tracking jobs that are 2 feet straight down. Believe me, I've made my mistakes and have hopefully learned from them. These two calibers and loads have been working the best of anything I have used to this point and in my environment. YMMV

30-30, .223, .243, 357mag have accounted for quite a few for us. Not exactly power house rounds, lol.

[versa-06]

Not power house rounds but still effective. The 223 I have reservations with. Yes it will kill deer but exit wounds may not always prevail. Like 243 with a light bullet.

[BadgerShooter]

No Doubt - In some of the environments I'm in, it's very important to keep deer very close to where they were shot. I've killed deer with those cartridges too and smaller. I know everyone else out there is perfect and has never had a deer get away, but since I have went to these loads, it just doesn't happen. In many situations, it's just fine for a deer to run 50-75 yards before they drop. In some situations, it's not. The difference i'm talking about is the ability to consistently drop deer in their tracks as opposed to running, even if a short distance. Just about anything that goes bang has been used to kill deer. In some of the environments I hunt in, it's important to be more consistently decisive and who doesn't want that. The best outcome I can think of is the deer piling up right when I pull the trigger. I want to do everything in my power to make that happen every time. Equipment, ammunition and purposeful practice.

[wolfdog]

Not power house rounds but still effective. The 223 I have reservations with. Yes it will kill deer but exit wounds may not always prevail. Like 243 with a light bullet.

That may have been the case ten years ago, but I've gotten consistent exits in the last few years on deer and antelope. I've had great luck with the 62 and 75 grain Speer Gold Dot, 64 grn Winchester Power Points and even the lowly 55grn Hornady soft point.
307992
307993

[wolfdog]

No Doubt - In some of the environments I'm in, it's very important to keep deer very close to where they were shot. I've killed deer with those cartridges too and smaller. I know everyone else out there is perfect and has never had a deer get away, but since I have went to these loads, it just doesn't happen. In many situations, it's just fine for a deer to run 50-75 yards before they drop. In some situations, it's not. The difference i'm talking about is the ability to consistently drop deer in their tracks as opposed to running, even if a short distance. Just about anything that goes bang has been used to kill deer. In some of the environments I hunt in, it's important to be more consistently decisive and who doesn't want that. The best outcome I can think of is the deer piling up right when I pull the trigger. I want to do everything in my power to make that happen every time. Equipment, ammunition and purposeful practice.

Heart lung shots tend to be the most common for me, and most of my deer pile up in 25-50 yards. Even in thick cover that allows me find them pretty easy. From .223 up to 30-06, I've seen consistent similar results on similar shots.
307994

[versa-06]

Note I said not always. I've seen 2 deer in the last 3 years, one in the neck with and one through the lungs using the Hornadt 55 grain bullet. Another at close range using Federal blue box 100 grain 243 at approx. 45 yds. through the lungs. That did not get a complete pass through. They all died within a few yards, but I like a complete pass thru for a blood trail if needed. -06

[wolfdog]

Note I said not always. I've seen 2 deer in the last 3 years, one in the neck with and one through the lungs using the Hornadt 55 grain bullet. Another at close range using Federal blue box 100 grain 243 at approx. 45 yds. through the lungs. That did not get a complete pass through. They all died within a few yards, but I like a complete pass thru for a blood trail if needed. -06

No worries, I hope I wasn't coming off as argumentative, just trying to share my exp. And I have several loads with the .243 that work but do not get passthroughs. That round is fast and I think typical cup and core bullets just don't hold together. Where I'm at, I get the choice of wide open shots where I can see forever or close in brush shots. I think most of us on this forum probably put in more thought and practice than the average hunter. And are probably intimately aware of our guns and components. I'm betting the guys that hunt with subsonic or .223 or what not have put in the time/effort to be comfortable with their choice and those who do not have also got the background to rule out certain rounds for their personal use. After a certain point, it's just what you will enjoy/remember shooting.

[versa-06]

---I have had very good luck with pass thru's with 100 gr. Rem Core-Lokt (If they can be found). & Hornady 100 gr. Inter Lock Bullets ( Now have a lifetime supply). These have complete pass thru's every time in my usage. Loading components have turned into a collectible item. If I find them & can afford them, I buy them.

[versa-06]

Above; Should have stated for the 243.

[wolfdog]

---I have had very good luck with pass thru's with 100 gr. Rem Core-Lokt (If they can be found). & Hornady 100 gr. Inter Lock Bullets ( Now have a lifetime supply). These have complete pass thru's every time in my usage. Loading components have turned into a collectible item. If I find them & can afford them, I buy them.

Really? I've had awful luck getting the Hornady 100grn soft point to stay together in .243. At 2900fps, unless my shot is over 200 yards I have the things come apart every time. I've killed hogs, antelope and deer with them over the years and can't think of a single time I had a pass through. I currently shoot the 85grn Sierra Game King hollow points, and though they do not pass through, they seem to always give me better groups than 100grn bullets in my rifle and have proven very effective. I also shoot the 85grn Speer Hot Core and though less accurate than the Sierra for me, also very effective on game.

[versa-06]

Amazing how results can differ, Isn't it. -06

[wolfdog]

Amazing how results can differ, Isn't it. -06

Probably range the animals are generally shot at, shot angle, bone impact or not, muzzle velocity, and a million other things. Most of the deer I have hit with the 100grn Hornady have been hit in the shoulder blade or hit a rib going in. I push mine to 2900fps and most of my shots when I had the 100 loaded were closer than 100 yards. All this probably adds up to less penetration than a double lung with no major bones hit and slower impact velocity. The hogs I've hit with that round were square in the forehead at 50 yards. Instantly lethal..but it's bound to limit penetration.

[versa-06]

We generally try to stay behind the shoulder on all game except coyote & bear. We are meat hunters & try our best to damage as little as possible. The only reason I would hit a bear in the shoulder is to take out a wheel & put him down a.s.a.p.

[versa-06]

Getting back on topic for a moment, Why would anyone "not want" the quieter load? Unless you like wearing hearing protection, Loud bangs excite you, You want everyone to know what you are doing, List goes on, & on. I know it takes pressure for flat trajectory, But most but not all hunting shots are usually 80 yds or less. Heavy bullet low velocity works as we all know.

[Larry Gibson]

Just as bow hunting, handgun hunting and muzzleloader hunting are most often used under their individual limitations so is hunting with a sub-sonic suppressed rifle, or at least it should be. Were it legal to spot and stalk or still hunt deer or antelope in open country I certainly wouldn't take my 45 ACP M98. However, if i was sitting in a blind next to a waterhole where shots wouldn't be over 100 yards? Also, if sitting in a blind down Texas way to shoot pigs coming into a feeder not more than 100 yards away. I won't hesitate to use the M98 45 ACP suppressed.

"Hunting" is done in many different ways not only throughout the world but in this country too. Because it's not the way we might hunt doesn't make it wrong.

[popper]

Nobody objects to quiet shooting. As is pointed out, shot placement is what is successful. That is the quandary, rainbow trajectory, estimating range/actual range and moving target during the 'time of flight'. If you can do it, fine. I've seen a hog duck a supersonic projectile.

[versa-06]

I shoot a lot of high velocity longer range stuff also. But when at all possible I prefer the heavy & slower loads.

[versa-06]

Only saying, The O.P. asks why? I ask why not? Not a grumble here, just a discussion.

[BK7saum]

Nobody objects to quiet shooting. As is pointed out, shot placement is what is successful. That is the quandary, rainbow trajectory, estimating range/actual range and moving target during the 'time of flight'. If you can do it, fine. I've seen a hog duck a supersonic projectile.

How does a hog duck a supersonic projectile? Was the hog reacting to another source of noise or just nervous in general and decided to bolt just as the shot was taken.

I just don't understand how a hog could duck a supersonic projectile by reacting to the shot.

To me, that would have just been a miss due to shooting at a nervous animal.

[jmorris]

I haven’t ever hunted any deer using subsonic but have shot a lot of pigs with sub sonic rounds from my 458 socom. That said, even subsonic, with the bullet weights I use, that’s over 1000ft/lbs of energy.

Around the house I almost always use subsonic for killing things but Mrs. Morris isn’t a fan of loud noises in the middle of the night. A 147gn 9mm does the job on coyotes and is already subsonic. Quiet enough that when I get back in bed, she asks what I’ve been doing…

The 300 blk is pretty unimpressive subsonic (the 9mm seems to work just as well and is cheaper to make) for it I use supers and a suppressor, not as quiet as subs, sounds more like a regular .22lr. However, with the barns TAC Tx bullet, ~2000 fps it’s proven effective for me. The only pigs I have shot with it, that didn’t drop where they stood, were already running when they rolled up.

[Bluerock2000]

The reason I joined this forum almost five years ago was to understand if I could build a subsonic gun and round that would reliably take deer. The industry has come quite a ways since then, but I spent a lot of time hounding the knowledgeable people on here about how to do it. I ended up joining the casting world and having a mold built that throws a big chunk of hollow pointed lead (all you can do when velocity is limited is increase weight) at 1050 fps that I can say is absolutely devastating on animals. Out of consideration for my relatively close neighbors, my criteria for my project were low noise and a short sprint from a hit animal.

[nanuk]

.... I have no need for subs. Many have lost game to subs also.

many have lost game to full power loads also

I think your comment is a bit ignorant

a few days ago, I read an article about the 30-30 and the author wrote that the 30-30 is not a good deer gun, as it wounds more deer than it kills

I think his comment is ignorant as well

I've watched many hunting shows, and I find by far, on those shows, the most wounding hunting tool is a compound bow!

[versa-06]

I've never seen personally where the 30-30 has been lacking for deer & black bear. But I have heard some stories. I believe a bad hit is a bad hit even with the bigger calibers & velocities. Then there are some that might blame the gun & not the placement of the shot.

[Shurshot2]

We have taken both deer and bear with supersonic bullets, does anyone have either in the cast boolit form?

[BadgerShooter]

I hit a coyote right through the boiler room at about 40 yards with a flat nose 495 grain hard cast 45-70 bullet at full Marlin pressure. He ran 50 yards before he figured out he was dead. I swage a soft 350 grain paper patch bullet that I push at max. It opens up to around 3/4" with little to no weight loss and is just a smasher. Everything ive shot with it is piled up on the spot.

A couple of comments back, the 9mm was mentioned. I figure I have shot about 400K 45 Auto rounds in my life and have killed everything from field mice to deer with it. I have never been impressed with it as a killer. I have killed more critters including deer faster and more effectively with my 3" pocket 9mm. Heresy, I know, but I think I have enough personal experience with the cartridges to have a pretty valid opinion.

I have to believe that whitetails have been killed with virtually any cartridge you can imagine. A person I know killed one with a .14 cal wildcat. 22 rimfires account for lots of deer in this area. Do you need a cannon to kill a deer? Obviously not. After hunting for almost 50 years, its become super important to me personally, to provide an instant kill to whatever I'm hunting if at all possible. I practice extensively and want my equipment and ammunition to give me the best chance of dropping that animal in its tracks quickly and humanely. YMMV