Loading challenge

[bigted]

Before I issue my challenge I can prefisit it with a bit more info.

Currently recovering from a blowout blood vessel in the back of my right eye that has me sightless for the time being in that eye, so no rifle shooting for me and I may or may not be a bit cabin fevered.

Next is very important to hear ... I do NOT suggest nor hope that anybody tests this unless you are qualified to do so SAFELY!!!

Sooo here goes. A subject that has always bothered me ever since I began muzzleloading back in the early 70's ... ( yes dirt had been invented then ) ... that unless you ensured that the ball or projectile is seated down on the powder, you have a pipe bomb.

Same goes for the brass cartridges and the dreaded space between powder and projectile.

If anybody has SOLID PROOF FIRST HAND ... I would like your stories. Not second hand ... friend of a friend stuff but real science or solid evidence.

This has always befuddled me and kinda reminded me of a possible old wives tale.

I have walnutted a rifle barrel and a revolver barrel due to an unrealized squib and the resultant for sure barrel obstruction but for the life ... cant figure the why of a very small charge of Unique in a 45-70 under a 400 or 500 grain projectile acting any different than a 40 grain charge of 2Fg black under those same 400 or 500 grain projectiles. Or a 60 grain charge of the same 2Fg under a .530 patched ball not seated down on the powder ... say within an inch or two maybe because of too much fouling.

There I got my cabin fevered mind exposed and hope to inspire a calm polite conversation concerning this concern.

Ok Ive gotten myself seatbelted in so give it to me. 🤔

[Brimstone]

I have a barely visible but otherwise unmeasurable ring in my 45-90 chamber.
It was just bad enough to change the grain surface of the chamber but not enough for an inside micrometer that measures tenths of a thou to even detect.

This was caused by inserting a patched bullet into a fouled chamber, getting jammed up, pulling said cartridge out which also unseated said patched bullet off the wad column and then trying and assuming my effort to finger seat the bullet (without using a caliper to measure COAL) then reinserting and firing said cartridge.

This was a mild load, 70gr of uncompressed and very bulky homemade 1FG. One of my weakest powders in fact.
Had it been a full charge of Swiss(100gr) or my Red Alder express powder....that rifle would have been a write off. No if, ands or buts.
Oh, the brass rolled up on itself. The wad was mashed up by the detonation and flowed past the brass and into the chamber.
It left smeared brass and concrete hard ring of card at the mouth of the collapsed cartridge.

I don't think it's just because the bullet was off the powder. I think the wad played a role.

I say this because I regularly load the 1863 Sharps with less than full chamber of powder and there's no ringing of the sleeve. I always muzzle up to bring the powder to the breech for more reliable ignition. Powder in this rifle absolutely isn't gapless yet does just peachy.

I'll try to get a picture of the ring. Isn't super obvious even when looking for it. The casing is out in the shop, I'll try to find it and get a pic.

[pietro]

.

No wives tale....

When I first started muzzleloading about 55 year ago, I failed to fully seat the projectile against the powder charge and promptly got a bulged barrel for my trouble.

I later found out that when a projectile isn't fully seated against the powder charge (whereby the powder ignition simply pushed the projectile forward), the explosive nature of the powder gasses hits the spaced-out projectile like a barrel obstruction, bouncing the explosive pressure back in the direction if came from, where there is no easy exit - so it makes it's own exit wherever it can (aka: the path of least resistance).

Since the breechplug is fully threaded/seated, in my case the barrel absorbed the much higher pressure in the form of a bulge.

.

[charlie b]

The problem is much more prevalent when seating a wad over the powder. The wad becomes the 'bullet' and the bullet is the obstruction.

Some of it depends on how much space there is. IMHO some people 'get away' with some space because they are not using a wad. The powder settles along the bottom of the barrel and the free space is along the top. Still causes a bit of a pressure spike, but, not enough to do damage.

It does depend on how big a charge, the size of the bore and the distance from the bullet to the powder column.

With all that said....when I first got a cap and ball revolver I didn't know about this. The Remington had big chambers. I loaded up a 'recommended' 20gn of powder. The bullet went way down in the chamber. My thought was, 'that doesn't look right'. So I loaded the ball to be just at the chamber mouth, about 50% load density. I had no issues at all other than erratic velocities. Mine fell in the category of a powder charge lying flat in the bottom of the chamber.

[Bazoo]

I’ve often wondered about this too. Thanks for starting this discussion. And thanks to all those that are sharing.

[freakonaleash]

I blew one to pieces back in the mid 80's. We were doing a woods walk sillywet shoot in 2' of snow in February. About 20 guys or so were there. There was always a wait before your turn to shoot. So, we generally gabbed it up and loaded while waiting. This gun had a 1" Douglas .50 and was a flintlock. A hawken-ish sort of thing, first gun I ever built. So, I put down 80gr 2ff followed by a patched ball and properly seated it. The conversation got interesting so I decided I better load my gun. Poured in another 80gr 2ff and started a ball with my short starter. Got all interested in the conversation again. All of a sudden somebody says "YOUR TURN TO SHOOT!" so stepped up to the firing line and touched it off and KABLOOEY! Top flat disappeared, never found it. Lock blew off(found it). The gun was broke in half right at the breech. The breech plug was still in the stock thanks to two 8X32 tang bolts going through the lollypop tang and screwed into the trigger plate. The short started ball was still in the barrel. All I got out of it was a singed eyebrow. If those two bolts in the tang would have gave I would have been dead.

[freakonaleash]

I have seen lots of bulged barrels from short started balls. Saw a guy launch his ramrod once when he forgot to take it out of the barrel. Bulge there too. I have seen lots of percussion drums let go and by some miracle never hit anyone on the firing line.

[waksupi]

Years ago, when Sharon Rifle Co. shut down, and became Montana Rifle Barrel Co. under Jerry Cunningham, they did a lot of destructive testing.
They loaded up to I believe 1400 gr. powder, with 14 patched round balls, and never damaged a barrel doing that. The only way they could cause damage was by separating a ball from the charge. They were using good enough steel that they never ruptured a barrel, but did bulge them.
For something way outside the box, they wrapped a paper towel tube with duck tape, put a plug in one end, and I don't recall the projectile used. They couldn't blow the cardboard tube when the projectile was on the powder.
If you can get you hands on the old Buckskin Report magazines, Jerry fully documented the experiment there in a multi part series.
I personally have only seen barrels bulged by short starters, that being a strong reason why I recommend finding a patch/ball combination that doesn't need a short starter.

[MarkP]

Years ago, when Sharon Rifle Co. shut down, and became Montana Rifle Barrel Co. under Jerry Cunningham, they did a lot of destructive testing.
They loaded up to I believe 1400 gr. powder, with 14 patched round balls, and never damaged a barrel doing that. The only way they could cause damage was by separating a ball from the charge. They were using good enough steel that they never ruptured a barrel, but did bulge them.
For something way outside the box, they wrapped a paper towel tube with duck tape, put a plug in one end, and I don't recall the projectile used. They couldn't blow the cardboard tube when the projectile was on the powder.
If you can get you hands on the old Buckskin Report magazines, Jerry fully documented the experiment there in a multi part series.
I personally have only seen barrels bulged by short starters, that being a strong reason why I recommend finding a patch/ball combination that doesn't need a short starter.

The Old Dixie Gun Works showed some similar tests with multiple patched balls, air spaces, and a barrel where both ends were threaded for a breech plug and a small hole in the center for a fuse. It was filled with black powder and the fuse was lit. IIRC all of the pressure vented out of the fuse hole and did not damage a the barrel.

[17nut]

The bigger the room the bigger the problem.
I have loaded several hundred's of 45-70 with 30 grains BP behind a collar button, without anything unusual happening. That with a thin milk carton wad holding the powder in place.

[dondiego]

The bigger the room the bigger the problem.
I have loaded several hundred's of 45-70 with 30 grains BP behind a collar button, without anything unusual happening. That with a thin milk carton wad holding the powder in place.

You are a braver man than I!

[bigted]

Interesting.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I actually did this today. I loaded a 500gr boolit on my carbon ridge which was a few inches above the powder. I shot over the chronograph and saw much lower velocity.

But that's just my word. Check out this video.

https://youtu.be/icolNUAY5ig

I say myth busted.

[indian joe]

I actually did this today. I loaded a 500gr boolit on my carbon ridge which was a few inches above the powder. I shot over the chronograph and saw much lower velocity.

But that's just my word. Check out this video.

https://youtu.be/icolNUAY5ig

I say myth busted.

I say he's overblown the myth for the sake of making a mythbuster video
changing grades of powder is a pretty ho hum deal - FG in a 42" barrel ? what fool thought thats gonna blow up a gun? should work fine (and did)

come to the walnutted barels though ? I have seen at least ten of those in my travels - something did it - nobody is ever gonna know what - if its not the short started ball then what ?? easiest next guess is a ball on the powder and a second one short started that is guaranteed to cause trouble.

seen a 22rf wrecked at the muzzle - back in the day farmers would leave the rifle out in the workshop - mud wasp comes along - guy goes to shoot a crow in the chicken pen - ooops
a neighbor brought me a parker hale 22/250 to get rebarreled one time with a bulge near the muzzle I bet was a wasp nest obstruction - coulda been interesting - I wasnt there - he wasnt saying -

I have a favourite myth - pricking the vent on a flinter - shot them for years - never done it - I stack the pan powder up agin the touch hole - let her go! - it works. Pay attention I can hear separate the hammer striking the frizzen and the charge going off - but not the clikck - fffft ---boom, thats typical of many flinters. Most flint shooters wanna argue this one with me - I just say come up on the line and we see what works.

[megasupermagnum]

The myth of airspace in a cartridge being an issue should have have never existed. When cartridges came on the scene in the late 1800's, a few loads had airspace and they worked fine. When cartridges began to be loaded with smokeless, they almost all had airspace. I really don't know how anyone could possibly believe it. Anyone who has shot muzzleloaders has shot with an air gap at one time or another even if they didn't know it. BPCR shooters to this day regularly shoot with air gaps intentionally, even with wads!

The myth that a short started ball will ring or blow a barrel is more valid. I have little doubt that if you fully seated a wad, then short seated a ball or bullet you would have troubles. Just short starting a patched ball only with powder loose in the barrel? Well to date I'm not aware of any test that has managed to damage a barrel that way. waksupi says Sharon Rifle Co. has done such a test, but I've never seen it. Nothing comes up on Google. It has been tried multiple times on Youtube, and nobody has been able to bulge a barrel. If it happens, it definitely doesn't happen every time. The thing that gets me is that in every single story you hear is similar to freakonaleash. They lost concentration, something happened, and something bad resulted. It's always told in a way that makes you wonder how they can be 100% what the issue was. They claim it was a short started ball, but as freakonaleash admits it might be a bigger mistake such as a second ball, or in his case, a whole second load.

[megasupermagnum]

You are a braver man than I!

That used to be a factory load in the 1800's, except of course there was no plastic milk cartons then. Actually it was 20gr blackpowder, and a 230gr 45 colt bullet in a 45-70 case. No wads or anything, loose powder. This was loaded by Frankford arsenal in the 1890's, and they worked. They also had an optional gallery load of a .455" round ball and 5gr blackpowder, also no wadding.

[dondiego]

That used to be a factory load in the 1800's, except of course there was no plastic milk cartons then. Actually it was 20gr blackpowder, and a 230gr 45 colt bullet in a 45-70 case. No wads or anything, loose powder. This was loaded by Frankford arsenal in the 1890's, and they worked. They also had an optional gallery load of a .455" round ball and 5gr blackpowder, also no wadding.

My concern was the wad.

[waksupi]

The myth of airspace in a cartridge being an issue should have have never existed. When cartridges came on the scene in the late 1800's, a few loads had airspace and they worked fine. When cartridges began to be loaded with smokeless, they almost all had airspace. I really don't know how anyone could possibly believe it. Anyone who has shot muzzleloaders has shot with an air gap at one time or another even if they didn't know it. BPCR shooters to this day regularly shoot with air gaps intentionally, even with wads!

The myth that a short started ball will ring or blow a barrel is more valid. I have little doubt that if you fully seated a wad, then short seated a ball or bullet you would have troubles. Just short starting a patched ball only with powder loose in the barrel? Well to date I'm not aware of any test that has managed to damage a barrel that way. waksupi says Sharon Rifle Co. has done such a test, but I've never seen it. Nothing comes up on Google. It has been tried multiple times on Youtube, and nobody has been able to bulge a barrel. If it happens, it definitely doesn't happen every time. The thing that gets me is that in every single story you hear is similar to freakonaleash. They lost concentration, something happened, and something bad resulted. It's always told in a way that makes you wonder how they can be 100% what the issue was. They claim it was a short started ball, but as freakonaleash admits it might be a bigger mistake such as a second ball, or in his case, a whole second load.

Found a link, but haven't found the text yet.

https://www.librarything.com/work/10895374

[megasupermagnum]

Thank you, I really appreciate it when someone can back up their claim with a source.

[indian joe]

Thank you, I really appreciate it when someone can back up their claim with a source.

I am a bit kind of ----ahhh lets NOT test this barrel bulging theory to find out who is right ----but then I am always trying to figure out how to get more blackpowder into a case, so air gap is not something bothers me. :bigsmyl2:

[waksupi]

Thank you, I really appreciate it when someone can back up their claim with a source.

With any luck, you may find someone with all the old Buckskin Reports. I gave all mine away to club members a couple years ago.

[bigted]

Again interesting.

I know that using a wad or multiple loads that cause a barrel obstruction will damage barrels. Original question was meant to ask if just an air gap without wads of any kind have caused hate and discontent. Such as a charge of powder down the barrel and a patched ball not seated completely on the charge situation ... or like has been noted that the "gallery" loads such as a collar button over 20 grains powder which would leave a substantial gap between powder and ball.

I doubt the ODG's that roamed the rocky mountains in search of beaver took time throughout their treks to insure the ball kept tight against the powder ... then again maybe they did.

This is my question and wonderment. I am reluctant to believe that either the 45-70 practice loads have not been handed down correctly or the "GAP" has been misunderstood and the issues all come from a wad of some kind in the mix that caused a barrel obstruction situation.

Interesting conversation. Thanks to all who have posted and the invitation stands to contribute your thoughts and experience.

[gunther]

1968, in college, a friend double loaded a Navy Arms 45 caliber flintlock Kentucky style pistol. Remarkable muzzle blast, recoil that was remarkable, as well. No harm, no foul. Mid 1980's, another friend left his ram rod in the barrel of a 45 flintlock rifle. Cut the 25 yard target in half, horizontally. Recoil turned him 90 degrees. No harm, no foul. Another friend, of vast bpcr experience, uses a cork wad when called for. Wad blows to smithereens. He hasn't had a problem.

[LAGS]

This isn't totally related to what was asked about in the post.
I have Proof Tested many barrels.
I progressively increase the load to reach my Max load.
On several I loaded them with a double max load for that gun as recommended by the manufacture.
The heaviest load has been a .54 barrel
With double powder load at 220 gr. or Double projectile at over max load.
I never Proofed the barrels when mounting it in the gunstock.
I built a wooden stand to hold the barrel and discharge it.
Two of the barrels I proofed are now Armoredman rifles that I built.
Armoredman watched me Proof one of those two barrels.

[ascast]

interesting stuff --- I pulled down a bunch of Dominion brand 43 Mauser rounds, later CIL. I shot some and thy were all over the place so I pulled the rest, maybe 60 rounds for the brass. What I found was that they were loaded were some black powder, maybe 20 grn, maybe 50. The case was otherwise filled with newspaper or paper wads either under the bullet over just over the primer. You could hear rattling if you shook the rounds. They produced that ammo for a couple decades I think. I have never heard of anyone ever ringing a 43 Mauser. There must have been 1,000's of that ammo shot up without any thought. So, why no bulge? was it just so lose and under powered to cause damage? very curious..

[bigted]

Yep this is the puzzle for me too. It is why I have doubts about air gaps between powder n bullet. Be nice to narrow down exactly what causes injury to our firearms.