45/70 - 425 at 1700 fps, gas-checked Lyman No 2:Lead 1:1?

[huntinlever]

I did look some so hope this isn't redundant but didn't quite see it. Just looking for a good hunting round out of the Guide Gun 45-70 and whereas I used to use WW cut with lead and Tb/Sn solder to get it to 96% lead, 2% each of tin and antimony, my wheel weight sources have dried up so I ordered some Lyman No 2 and lead from Rotometals.

Presuming 1700 fps and gas checked, before water cooling, I'm getting a calculated BHN of 11.6 with 50:50 No. 2/Lead. Getting tin and antimony at 2.5% each. Originally I had it at 1:1.5 so I had 2% each of tin and antimony, but am guessing the 50:50 would suit.

How do you guys feel about this alloy - and would you quench or air-cool (my presumption is that I brought the BHN up to 18 or so with quenching, but I really have no real idea).

[405grain]

The answer depends on what you're hunting. If you are hunting pig or deer, I'd suggest a bullet that would have some expansion. If you're hunting bears, moose or elk, then penetration might be more important. In your case, a 400+ slug from a 45-70 is already the diameter that other bullets expand to, and it's penetration is legendary, so I would suggest that you choose the alloy that shoots the most accurately in your rifle. About the only thing you don't want is for the bullet to become so hard that it's brittle. Try both of your choices: air cooled & water quenched, and see which one your gun likes best.

[huntinlever]

OK thanks. Basically I'm not at all a tinkerer, just found what my gun seemed to like and stayed there. These were WW cut with solder and lead so I got to 2% each of the antimony and tin (though I know WW can really vary). I was really happy with these, with IMR 4198 and the GC, and a pretty consistent fps hovering right at 1700 fps.

To get close to that, I'm seeing I need 1:1.5 No.2:lead, whereas I'm seeing 50:50 will give me a slightly higher BHN at 11.6. I'd not thought about the game specifics - presumed I just punched a hole without much expansion, and that was that. Now I wonder if I really should try to keep the as-cast BHN of 11, and play between the water cooled and air cooled. A bit cheaper too to cut with more lead. Sounds like for deer you don't think 11-11.6 at this FPS is too soft, even if GC'ed, is that right?

[oley55]

My 50-50 is coww and whatever soft. At that ratio I see no benefits from quenching. Just not enough antimony to gain any quench hardening.

[huntinlever]

If the soft you're talking about is pure lead, I'm getting 1% antimony with that alloy. Any thoughts if it's 2-2.5% antimony?

[centershot]

Since you're asking for opinions, if it were me, I'd cut that #2 alloy with 2 parts lead, yielding an alloy of 96.6-1.7-1.7. And, I'd cut the velocity to something around 12-1300 fps. Hey, a million dead buffalo can't be wrong, right?

Seriously, it's a 45/70, you don't need to hot-rod it.

[huntinlever]

Thanks, good perspective and I hear you. Part of the reason it's this hot a load has to do with groupings - they kept getting better and better until 39.7 4198, and very even hovering around 1700 fps, then decreased after that. Lower, in my guide gun anyway, I was finding a lot of errant shots.

[Sgt H]

Paul, I had the same issue with 4198 back when I thought I needed to drive bullets as hard as the gun would take. I found 4198 did not burn well until I got near the upper levels of the lever gun loads, about 1700 fps with 400 grain and 2000 fps with 300 grain jacketed bullets. Below that level velocity extreme spreads were over 100 fps. Sounds like that is what you may be experiencing. The single base extruded powders do not start to burn well till the pressure gets up to 28,000psi or so. I would suggest a faster powder like 2400 or AA5744, both double base, ignite easier and burn better at lower pressures. I cast a Lyman 457193 out of 40/1 for pigs and drive them about 1300fps. I imagine your 425 at 1700 gets your attention when you squeeze the trigger. As already said, no need to hot rod the 45-70 and abuse your shoulder.

[BLAHUT]

In my guide gun, I use a lee, 515gr, fp, pure lead, 27 gr 5744, 5 touching at 100 yds. Hits like a hammer.

[huntinlever]

Fantastic, thanks Sgt. I think you nailed it. The photo was from years ago - and a lot of hard miles since then and I can see for deer I'm bringing a cannon needlessly (thanks you all).

307166

I can see the alloy as I have it is over the top - thanks centershot as I went back to my earlier notes and I was getting 50:50 WW:Lead with some (expensive) solder to bring it to 1.5% each of tin and antimony, and the trace arsenic. I water cooled these and presumed I landed somewhere around 18-20 BHN.

So, at 2:1 lead: Lyman's 2 I'm getting 10.5 BHN. At 3:1 I'm getting 10.1. I'll pull a new load (unfortunately I no longer have the chrono so can't get the FPS spreads) based on your thoughts, but at least for now, what do you guys think of the 2:1, or even the 3:1 water cooled and allowed to rest for a few weeks?

[huntinlever]

In my guide gun, I use a lee, 515gr, fp, pure lead, 27 gr 5744, 5 touching at 100 yds. Hits like a hammer.

That's impressive. Do you know how fast you're shooting with this (and man, I'd love to see the bullet - I had trouble chambering when I went to a 465 grain)?

[Sgt H]

My long range load for my Sharps is 27gr AA5744 under a 525gr boolit. I runs 1275fps from my Sharps, about equal to a 45-90 with black powder. Round is too long for a lever as my COL is 2.95". You could seat deeper to get it to work through a Marlin but with the boolit seated .4" deeper in the case it will substantially change the pressure and velocity. You would also be up on the ogive of the boolit making crimping more problematic. RCBS and others make molds for 500 grain boolits designed to work through levers if you feel the need. For hunting purposes there is really no need for boolits heavier than the 400 grain range, even for big critters like elk IMO. I don't use the 525gr for hunting, its purpose is long range targets and gongs.

[centershot]

Fantastic, thanks Sgt. I think you nailed it. The photo was from years ago - and a lot of hard miles since then and I can see for deer I'm bringing a cannon needlessly (thanks you all).

307166

I can see the alloy as I have it is over the top - thanks centershot as I went back to my earlier notes and I was getting 50:50 WW:Lead with some (expensive) solder to bring it to 1.5% each of tin and antimony, and the trace arsenic. I water cooled these and presumed I landed somewhere around 18-20 BHN.

So, at 2:1 lead: Lyman's 2 I'm getting 10.5 BHN. At 3:1 I'm getting 10.1. I'll pull a new load (unfortunately I no longer have the chrono so can't get the FPS spreads) based on your thoughts, but at least for now, what do you guys think of the 2:1, or even the 3:1 water cooled and allowed to rest for a few weeks?

I wouldn't water quench that alloy, and yes, the 3:1 #2/pure should work fine. Get your velocity down to Trapdoor speeds and let the caliber and mass do their job. Even 12-13 grains of Unique or equivalent will give a good accurate load without whacking your shoulder.

[Sgt H]

FWIW I ran the recoil calculation for your 425/1700 load. I figure your Marlin weighs about 7 pounds - recoil about 40 ft/lbs or the same as a 375 H&H magnum in a 9.5 pound rifle. OUCH!

[huntinlever]

I wouldn't water quench that alloy, and yes, the 3:1 #2/pure should work fine. Get your velocity down to Trapdoor speeds and let the caliber and mass do their job. Even 12-13 grains of Unique or equivalent will give a good accurate load without whacking your shoulder.

OK, thanks. Lots to learn obviously. So, how about the Accurate Mold 46-405N (meplat of .34), non-GC, FPS down around 1300. with the 3:1 lead:No 2, air cooled only?

Sgt., never worked with the 2400 (that's a magnum handgun powder, right?) or the AA5744, but looking into these for these specs. Thanks.

-and though it sounds like it's not at all necessary, the hot load as above reserved for elk and "Alaska" round?

[huntinlever]

FWIW I ran the recoil calculation for your 425/1700 load. I figure your Marlin weighs about 7 pounds - recoil about 40 ft/lbs or the same as a 375 H&H magnum in a 9.5 pound rifle. OUCH!

YIKES! The crazy thing is I don't mind this all that much - this is weird, but I prefer this wallop to the "sting" I get with the Hornady Leverrevolution 325's! That shoulder bruising was during load development, and I didn't hug it in tight enough, if I recall. But I did jack my shoulder up for awhile and don't want to revisit. Now, actually, I think I'd be a pile of bones...

[17nut]

Veral Smith said it best when he said: Speed at target 1400-1700fps and as big a meplath as you can get. That will give you best primary wound cavity and best penetration.

Sod expansion with a 45 bullet.

I run a RCBS 425grain GC bullet right at 1850fps with check from a 94/3/3 alloy with no issues except shoulder fatigue.

[17nut]

425grain 1850fps from a 45-70 is Winchester 1886/Marlin 1895 territory, definetly not Trapdoor!

[huntinlever]

Thanks for the help guys. I've got the 40ish rounds with the 425/4198 left and plan to shoot this week. I do love this load but I'm eyeing a 405 from Tom at Accurate, and once powder opens up looking will be playing with the milder loads, especially intrigued by the AA5744. Thanks again.

[BLAHUT]

That's impressive. Do you know how fast you're shooting with this (and man, I'd love to see the bullet - I had trouble chambering when I went to a 465 grain)?

I did not run across coronagraph if I remember, book says it is a trapdoor load ?? 515 FP No problem chambering.

[huntinlever]

I'm not seeing much for Accurate 5744 or Alliant 2400 (or any of many of the others suggested here and elsewhere, actually, for the moderate 45-70 loads), except for IMR 4198 (which I have) and 3031, which is available. I've seen a lot of people like 3031 in modest loads. How do you guys like it?

[huntinlever]

Hi guys -

I did end up getting the 46-405VG from Tom at Accurate. Pretty excited to load this at moderate levels. I just saw some Varget is available but am wondering if that might be too slow for the trapdoor level loads, say, 45-46 grains? So far no 2400, 5400 or Unique, at least none I could find.

[Dom]

Straight WW ( had for years ) on my "LBT" hardness tester runs 10.5. My RCBS 405gr mold with GC cast up at 422grs when cast from straight WW. At 1300 fps very accurate , & very capable of 125yd shots. Never seen the need for more velocity. Give the lower velocity a try. I believe you will be pleased.

[huntinlever]

Straight WW ( had for years ) on my "LBT" hardness tester runs 10.5. My RCBS 405gr mold with GC cast up at 422grs when cast from straight WW. At 1300 fps very accurate , & very capable of 125yd shots. Never seen the need for more velocity. Give the lower velocity a try. I believe you will be pleased.

Thanks Dom. I'm pretty excited to work the lower loads on this one. I don't have the LBT tester but plan for one down the road. The alloy spreadsheet is showing 10.6 for me, with 2:1 Pb: No. 2. Do you quench yours, or just air cool?

[405grain]

huntinlever: If you can't find any AA5744 see if you can get some shooters world buffalo rifle. They are practically the same powder. 5744 used to be made by Lovex in Czechoslovakia, and was designated as D060. Accurate powders is now made someplace else (Canada I think?). Shooters world powders are made by Lovex, and buffalo rifle is D060. You can use the same load data for both powders.

[huntinlever]

huntinlever: If you can't find any AA5744 see if you can get some shooters world buffalo rifle. They are practically the same powder. 5744 used to be made by Lovex in Czechoslovakia, and was designated as D060. Accurate powders is now made someplace else (Canada I think?). Shooters world powders are made by Lovex, and buffalo rifle is D060. You can use the same load data for both powders.

That's interesting, thanks. I'll keep my eye out.

[huntinlever]

Midway has 5744 in, but it's tough to swallow $88 for a pound, shipped. I estimate about 30 grains per charge, so that's about $0.37 a cartridge, v. about $35 for my IMR 4198 (I know accuracy can be a problem at lower loads, but let's say, 32 grains for about 1350 fps), or under 1/2 the price for the 5744 at $0.16 per charge.

Unique and 2400 still AWOL, but still pretty eager to get at least the right load in for this lower-FPS round while I have on hand enough primers for a decent ladder outing. Tough to answer, I know, but would you guys advise 5744 significantly outclasses the 4198 at these pressures, warranting at least a trial regardless of this high cost (i.e., it will be a great powder going forward, so this initial premium is worth it while I have the primers to work with)?

Edit: Let me punch up Varget again at 42-46 grains. On the slower side, I see. Too slow?