Coated bullet leading issue

[Sefuller]

I've recently noticed a fairly severe leading issue on my Walther PDP which has somewhere around 1,200 - 1,500 rounds of mostly Hi-tek coated bullets and some factory ammo. I've been loading 125gr round nose Hi-tek coated bullets over 4 or 4.1 grains of 231, CCI 500 primers in mixed range brass. I noticed previously that I would occasionally get little silver slivers at the case mouth after seating and I increased my bell, but also noticed that in nearly every single instance where there was scraped coating, the brass was CBC. My crimp is set to just take the flare from the bell out of the case. I recently switched from a Dillon SDB to a Dillon 550, with Redding competition pro die set. My OAL is 1.12 or a little less which plunks and spins with no problem in my barrel. The PDP has a polygonal barrell, but I have shot lots of Hi-tek bullets through my PPQ which has the identical barrel with no issues - other factors may have changed however since I shot that gun (powder, crimp, OAL...). I have slugged the barrel at 355, and the bullets are 356. When I first noticed that there was leading in my barrel, it had already built up to a pretty significant amount and I spent a few hours trying to clean it using everything I had on hand including copper chore boy on patch and then on a brush, Hoppes 9, Sweets 762, Balistol, a paper towel soaked in penetrating oil left in the barrel for a couple hours, Lewis lead remover, and I even tried that homemade toxic potion Reds something or other. In the end the only way I was able to remove all of the lead was with lapping compound on a patch run through the barrel 50 or more times. Yesterday was the first day using the new press and dies and I was confident after a dozen dummy rounds produced bullets that were unscarred when pulled that I was good to go. I loaded 20 rounds and went to the range only to come home to find lead deposits again over the whole length of the barrel. A friend who has cast and shot 10s of thousands of bullets said he has never seen such tenacious deposits. When I scope the clean PDP barrel and the clean PPQ barrel, I don't see any difference in terms of the finish or anything that may be cause the one to lead where the other didn't seem to. The PPQ barrel also slugs at 355. At this point the amount of time and energy spent removing the lead is causing diminishing enthusiasm for further experimentation. My questions are, is it necessary to have compromised coating in order to produce leading? What other suggestions might you have to resolve my issue?

Thanks much for any insights!

[dondiego]

Try sizing the bullets to 0.357 or 0.358.

[sigep1764]

358 is what all of my 9mm pistols prefer, including a Walther PPS. I had to go to a custom powder thru expander for my Dillon. The original had a .353 expander spud and was no good. It would allow the brass to squeeze the lead boolit down to a size that leaded the barrel.

[Sefuller]

358 is what all of my 9mm pistols prefer, including a Walther PPS. I had to go to a custom powder thru expander for my Dillon. The original had a .353 expander spud and was no good. It would allow the brass to squeeze the lead boolit down to a size that leaded the barrel.

I should have mentioned I have a UniqueTek expander/powder funnel that expands to 357, and expands the case deeper than the Dillon powder funnel.

[sigep1764]

Good! It's very common to overlook the expander when starting. Glad you have one. I would try those boolits at .357 or .358. 90% of issues are caused by undersized boolits.

[P Flados]

The 9mm was my biggest challenge for finding boolit happiness.

After I found my solution, I posted responses in a few “9mm problem” threads. Eventually, I went back grabbed some stuff I wrote and put it all together. I keep the words saved for use as needed.

First lets start out with something that combines a good measure of truth with some humor. The following was at post 10 of the link at the bottom.

Take your time and read the following. Then do it. As corny and funny as it may sound, it is probably the best solution.

Cast in a 9 mm can be very frustrating. Do not let that put you off. The solution is simple. There 10 easy steps to the 9mm.


Step 1: Try what you have and what you think might work. Take notes. You might get lucky.

Step 2: If step 1 did not work, tell us exactly what you did.

Step 3: Sort through the 50 suggestions, pick one.

Step 4: Try it and hope you get lucky.

Step 5: If it did not work, tell us exactly what you did and what happened.

Step 6: Sort through the 40 suggestions. Pick a new suggestion.

Step 7: Try it and hope you get lucky.

Step 8: If it did not work, go back to step 5.

Step 9: After you get something that works, assume you are an expert and provide suggestions when some else shares their problems.

Step 10: After a bunch of newbies ignore your suggestions, come to understand that the 9mm is too finicky to ever be simple and work the same way for anybody else.


The combination below has worked for me and may help others figure out something that may want to try next.


I use a custom deep plug 0.3575" expander
I use 0.3595" PC coated boolits (Lee 120 TC)
I use select brass, a mix of Blazer, FC and CCI
I seat and I do flare removal as separate steps
I can now use any powder I want and loads up to book max with great accuracy and no leading.




I have come to believe that much of the 9mm "just can't figure it out frustration" comes from having boolits sized down by the case more than you think and/or just not going with big enough boolits. I am also convinced that sorting headstamps is an easy thing to try early on when your are having problems. More details of my basis for these can be found in post 37 of

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?369567-I-m-losing-steam-trying-to-develop-accurate-cast-9mm/page3

[Bazoo]

I was surprised when I tried different expander plugs in 44 spl that anything over .002 smaller causes base swaging. Even with wheel weight alloy bullets.


Glad you got it sorted out.

[Cast10]

I have read that CBC brass is a No Go. I don’t use it for reloads.

I’m running the same Lee mold in my Glock’s with zero leading.

I size to .357.

I mix SOWW’s and Hardball for a BHN of 11.3. SN 1% SB 2.57% PB 96.4%

I use standard carbide RCBS dies and crimp only enough to hold the bullet in place firmly. I only bell enough for the bullet to sit on top. Nothing special.

I Powder Coat, so my boolits are coated and heated per SOP here, cooled slightly but still warm and run through the sizer. I see around 90+ degrees when I size.

Brass - Winchester, Federal, Remington, Speer/Blazer, Starline; NO CBC or Stepped brass.

COAL - 1.080”

Performance - G19 1095 fps ; G26 1055 fps

[waksupi]

Sounds like the alloy is too hard.

[oley55]

I had to finally start sorting 9mm brass after I discovered the CBC bras walls were thicker than all others and created both seating and boolit swaging issues. CBC brass equal recycle bin fodder.

[fredj338]

I had to finally start sorting 9mm brass after I discovered the CBC bras walls were thicker than all others and created both seating and boolit swaging issues. CBC brass equal recycle bin fodder.

I also toss CBC & many other foreign brands. I load mostly 147 & they seat to a depth that causes a small bulge at the bullet base. I size 0.357" & PC mostly. I have never had leading issues in anything 9mm I shoot. MBF expander on a 650 with RCBS dies.

[charlie b]

My HK with a polygonal barrel does not like PC. There is no throat so the edges of the 'rifling' simply scrape off the PC and the bare lead is free to contaminate the bore. If I shot it more I'd have Doug throat it, but, it is a car gun and doesn't get fired much. Practice ammo is jacketed.

[Sefuller]

My HK with a polygonal barrel does not like PC. There is no throat so the edges of the 'rifling' simply scrape off the PC and the bare lead is free to contaminate the bore. If I shot it more I'd have Doug throat it, but, it is a car gun and doesn't get fired much. Practice ammo is jacketed.

Sorry, I'm relatively new to this - can you explainthroat vs no throat, and how a barrel is throated?

[sigep1764]

Sefuller, picture the beginning of your barrel right after the chamber as a funnel. This small funnel is a throat. It gently introduces the boolit to the rifling. A lot of manufacturers have started skipping this step in the manufacture of their barrels. Dougguy on this forum offers the service of machining this throat into folks barrels.

[414gates]

The most likely cause of the coating being shaved off is crimped brass.

9mm reloads do not need crimping.

Flare the case mouth just enough that a bullet can sit in the case mouth without tipping over. If you are flaring more than necessary, then you are crimping to compensate - most likely over crimping.

Then seat it. No need to crimp. If your die seats and crimps in one step, set it up again by backing the die out so that the crimp ring does not touch the case rim, and just set the seating stem.

Do the plunk test till you get it right. You should not have to crimp at all.

A powder coated bullet, even pure lead, does not lose it's coating in a pistol bore, unless the bore is pitted.

[kevin c]

The brass or undersized bullets certainly could be the problem, but, given how hard you found it to clean out your barrel, there’s another possibility: if the coating is under cured, it may be leaving tenacious deposits in your bore.

HiTek is great stuff and I’ve used it for years, both commercial bought and now home coated, but it has to be cured right. I’ve shot underbaked home or commercially coated cast that smokes, smells of burnt plastic and leaves residue in the bore that is hard to clean out.

[Sefuller]

Thanks for the explanations, I believe then that my barrel is throated since I see "ramps" of sorts just after the chamber. I have attempted to attach a photo of what I believe is leading (as opposed to coating). I am going to the range today to try some bullets sized to 357. We'll see if that changes anything!

307145

[Sig]

Are you seating & crimping in the same or separate steps? You mentioned lead shavings. Possible you're shaving the PC off.

[Sefuller]

Are you seating & crimping in the same or separate steps? You mentioned lead shavings. Possible you're shaving the PC off.
Separate. Just barely putting any crimp on as noted in other's posts.

[Sefuller]

The upsized bullet experiment did not solve the problem. I loaded 20 rounds of 130gr coated bullets with the 231 and shot 10 each through my PDP and PPQ and both barrels leaded. I am going to try a few rounds with a different powder after getting the barrels clean again.

[sigep1764]

I just checked my manual and 120 grain lead at 1.065, 4.1 grains is a max load. Your load is longer but 5 grains heavier in boolit weight. Minimum load is 3.0 grains. I’d drop the load to 3.2 grains and increase the powder charge until you get functioning slide lock back. Don’t change the powder yet. Try .357 within the 3.2 to 3.9 grains. Then .358 with the same loads.

[dogdoc]

Had a lot of leading problems with bevel base hard cast coated bullets in several calibers. Easy solution that works. Light coat of Lee liquid Alox or 45/45/10. I also do this with with crayon lube hard cast non coated commercial cast.

[dogdoc]

Better yet just skip the coating and lube with liquid Alox or tradition lube

[ChristopherO]

Did you use the same brass? The suggestions prior about tight brass swagging down the projectile is what I learned concerning cast boollits quite a few decades ago. It may have something to do with your issue.

[Dusty Bannister]

Is the bore condition clean and dry or are you giving the barrel a very light coating of lube, just enough to make the bore shine?

[Sefuller]

Haven't been on for a few days, but I did load 15 rounds using the .357 130 gr bullets over 3 grains of VV N320 which others reported as being a faster but cooler powder. Same issue, barrel is leaded along the entire length. Regarding the brass, I am using mixed brass, although I have begun setting aside any CBC brass as it seems to be a little thicker and had created some issues with shaving coating previously. I continue to randomly pull bullets through the process and I am never finding any with compromised coating when I pull them. I should mention I am not producing my own bullets, but buying them from a source recommended by some Bullseye shooter friends. The vendor has been extremely pro-active in trying to help resolve the issue.

[Sefuller]

Furthering my experiments, I loaded thirty rounds of 130 grain Hi-Tek coated bullets sized to 358, over 3.6 grains of VV N320. The results were better - still some leading in the barrel but primarily near the muzzle instead of the entire length of the barrel. These deposits were fairly easily removed using more conventional methods than the struggles I have been dealing with. I plan to order a UniqueTek expander sized to 358 and continue with these bullets trying some different powders.

[45DUDE]

I have a 9mm 1911 that gives me trouble with lead. I shoots really great with 124 plated and doesn't cost much more. It's not the boolits because the lead boolits shoot perfect in another gun

[Elpatoloco]

I load everything on single stage presses. I have had issues as the original poster states. What I have found is that sometimes the cast slug or any slug will cant some on the seating stroke. I remedied this by "bumping" the slug on the upstroke into the seater plug. Slightly rotate the brass with the fingers.....say 1/8 of a turn and then send it back up. My lead slivers stopped. I even had them with powder coat, and do the same thing. I load for an HK and a springfield 9mm and size .357 with zero issues. Standard expanders in every caliber that I load for. All on 1 of the 3 rcbs presses that I use.

[Sefuller]

...What I have found is that sometimes the cast slug or any slug will cant some on the seating stroke...

This can definitely be an issue, and one I have experienced. My remedies have been to get a larger expander die so that the bullet drops deeper into the case, and I use a Redding pro competition seating die which does a better job of aligning the bullet. I still pay particular attention to insure the bullet is not canted. I have pulled enough bullets during the loading process to be pretty confident the coating is not being damaged in the loading process. That being said I have read that the these particular Redding dies are not good for coated bullets, but I can't find anything occurring in my process using them that is causing a problem. The problem I am chasing was occurring before switching to the Redding die.

[Sefuller]

I have a 9mm 1911 that gives me trouble with lead. I shoots really great with 124 plated and doesn't cost much more. It's not the boolits because the lead boolits shoot perfect in another gun

I am pretty close to giving up and just using plated, but I hate leaving problems unsolved :smile:

[jsizemore]

A pound cast will tell you what all the chamber/leade/barrel dimensions are. Sounds like your throat is large and bullet is too hard to obturate enough to seal and prevent gas cutting. I had your problem and switched to 50/50 + 1% tin (same as I shoot in my 45acp) and then coated. Bullets are sized to .3575 after coating. A pulled bullet measures .3572-3. Some throats come in at .358. If the bullet hasn't engaged the origin of the rifling before the bullet base leaves the case all kinds of bad things happen. The fast burning powder slaps the rear end of the bullet at just the right time so it bumps up and creates a gas seal. Good Luck with 9mm.

[Sefuller]

A pound cast will tell you what all the chamber/leade/barrel dimensions are.

I am not familiar with that - could you elaborate?

[skeet1]

A person should not forget the dia. of the barrel. You may have a bullet of proper dia. but your barrel is oversized and will still lead with .357-.358 bullets. A person should check the barrel size to be sure, especially with older military guns.

[Sefuller]

A person should not forget the dia. of the barrel. You may have a bullet of proper dia. but your barrel is oversized and will still lead with .357-.358 bullets. A person should check the barrel size to be sure, especially with older military guns.

The barrel slugs at 355

[Elpatoloco]

This can definitely be an issue, and one I have experienced. My remedies have been to get a larger expander die so that the bullet drops deeper into the case, and I use a Redding pro competition seating die which does a better job of aligning the bullet. I still pay particular attention to insure the bullet is not canted. I have pulled enough bullets during the loading process to be pretty confident the coating is not being damaged in the loading process. That being said I have read that the these particular Redding dies are not good for coated bullets, but I can't find anything occurring in my process using them that is causing a problem. The problem I am chasing was occurring before switching to the Redding die.

Well rats, I have never used larger expanding plugs because like you, Ive pulled enough bullets to know what was going on. I shoot some sometimes hard to get brass and like to work it the least amount possible. My habits carried over to regular rounds such as 45,9,10, 357. Neck tension is never a bad thing. On rounds that are tapercrimped, I only remove the bell so it drops in the chamber. I hope you get this ironed out.

Ive read of folks playing Holy Hell with the 9mm. Its just not something I ever ran into.

Ive also gone to shooting straight range scrap in everything but 44 mag and 475. I keep reading how it needs to be harder in my 10mms.....but I powder coat em and have zero leading issues and run the FAST.

[jsizemore]

I am not familiar with that - could you elaborate?

This explains the procedure. I do this with pistol barrels just take the barrel out and take your prepped case and hold the case head and barrel hood against the bench while doing the pounding. Painters, electrical, duct tape will work. I use a 1/4" soft steel rod.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356251-Pound-Cast-instructions-(for-rifle-chamber)

[45DUDE]

I am pretty close to giving up and just using plated, but I hate leaving problems unsolved :smile: Not having a leading problem at all. My lead boolits are tumbling sized at .357 & .358 and two different powers and two different boolits.<121-.158> I have a Colt 1911 38 super barrel for the same gun and it tumbles the lead also but both group plenty good with plated. All of my reloads do fine in my shooting buddy's gun. I'm leaning on a gun problem but the plating shooting so good I'm not worried at the time. Maybe I need to speed them up--They are doing about 1100fps with the 121's and 1000 with the 158's.

[Sefuller]

Today I had an interesting conversation with a long time Hi-Tek coated bullet user. He postulates that the deposits I am struggling with are in fact carbon deposits, not lead. This would make infinite sense given the difficulties I have had trying to remove them. Unfortunately, if true it puts me back to square one in the quest to determine why I am getting these deposits. Also would need to find a method for cleaning carbon deposits from barrels since I have accumulated an extensive list already of what does not work!