muzzleloader stock problem/shape

[GL49]

I've got three TC Hawken muzzleloaders, my two sons each shoot one, I shoot the third. My brother also owns one. The one I use beats the snot out of my cheekbone when I shoot it. Has anyone ever bent a stock on one of these, or removed the raised cheekpiece portion of the stock to see if that would be a help? To get a decent sight picture, I feel like I need to lean pretty hard over the top of the stock and whoopee, I know I'm gonna get nailed. My brother and sons just laugh, (mostly at my whining and complaining), I however, don't think it's that funny. :sad:
Any suggestions or insight would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Larry

[dondiego]

Could you install a peep/receiver sight to get your head up a little higher? It might require a taller front sight too..

[elmacgyver0]

Lighter load perhaps?

[BLAHUT]

Dassie sells an air gun sight, peep, that's gets my head up, has a good amount of fine adjustment.
Last I saw one, was about $75.00, for front and back, work good for me..

[LAGS]

I have modified Many TC stocks.
The length of pull and drop in the comb are not all the same on every TC stock.
When I buy used ones, I measure them and the ones that fit me best I keep.
The others I either modify the length of pull or lower the cheek piece on the Hawkens to fit better.
I have never Warped drop in or out of the stock.
TC's have a tendency of having cracks right in the grip area and lock area.
Taller sights is a good option to make the lack of drop in the stock work out.
I had to do that on a Traditions St Louis Hawken to get it to fit me.
But I don't want to modify that stock because I might sell it.
Stocks with less drop in the stocks are better if you want to install a scope on the rifle.
I have one Renegade that has less drop that I may put a scope on .
But I can also find someone that it Fits and wants to buy it.

[pietro]

.

IME, face slapping is not caused by the cheekpiece, it's caused by either heavy loads and/or the angle of the buttstock comb having too much of a drop angle to move straight back along the shooter's face (reducing recoil).

The size/thickness of the cheekpiece effects where (right or left) of the bore C/L the shooting eye is located.

[725]

Kinda a weird question; Are you right eye or left eye dominate? If you are left eye and are leaning over to fix your sight picture, that would place your face in a position to get whacked. Just a thought. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to re-shape the stock to lower the comb. Hard to see what's happening over the internet. Good luck.

[LAGS]

Lowering the Comb or Cheek piece a 1/4" makes a big difference.
I did one where I carved / sanded a depression in the cheek piece.

[BLAHUT]

Kinda a weird question; Are you right eye or left eye dominate? If you are left eye and are leaning over to fix your sight picture, that would place your face in a position to get whacked. Just a thought. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to re-shape the stock to lower the comb. Hard to see what's happening over the internet. Good luck.


If you are right handed and left eye dominate, you really need to shoot left handed..... Won't take long to make the adjustment...

[indian joe]

Lowering the Comb or Cheek piece a 1/4" makes a big difference.
I did one where I carved / sanded a depression in the cheek piece.

I had a CVA 54 cal with too straight stock that was belting my cheek something fierce and another not so bad but doin it
bent the both of them using hot oil, heat lights, and a jig I made, i had watched a video that Larry "Midway" posted of an old English dude bending high dollar walnut shotgun stocks once he got them right it was like moulding plasticine.

The CVA (Beech wood) I did took a huge amount of effort - I got it to drop about a half inch at the point of the comb but woulda liked more - The other one (wood they call Brazilian Walnut here) bent easily once I got it hot enough.

Raising sight height will get it done but can look kinda ugly

[indian joe]

.

IME, face slapping is not caused by the cheekpiece, it's caused by either heavy loads and/or the angle of the buttstock comb having too much of a drop angle to move straight back along the shooter's face (reducing recoil).

The size/thickness of the cheekpiece effects where (right or left) of the bore C/L the shooting eye is located.

If its too straight or too high and you need to scrunch your face down on it to get a sight picture - a decent load will slam you for sure

[Jackrabbit1957]

Mr Lags is on the right track with lowering the cheek piece. One possibility is where is your hand in relation to your face when shouldering the stock? Have seen guys get smacked by their own thumb by being way to close to the hand by hunkering down tight to the stock, seems worse with a short length of pull.

[centershot]

I like the T/C Hawkens and Renegades but this has been a problem with every single one I've owned over the years. To fit me properly I need to cut away the comb until it is virtually gone at the wrist and then maintain a straight line all the way back to the heel. I also reduce the thickness of the stock from the wrist back to the buttplate, carefully tapering it so that I don't need to alter the buttplate. Yes, it's a lot of work, but that's what that downtime is for after hunting season ends. :)

[LAGS]

Have you tried to lengthen you length of pull.
Most vintage style rifles have a shorter length of pull and more drop in the stock.
If you have long arms or a long neck , I would suggest that you maybe put a spacer under your butt plate to make the stock a longer pull.
Or like for survey butt plates tape a pad onto the butt plate for testing how it will work for you.

[BLAHUT]

I had a CVA 54 cal with too straight stock that was belting my cheek something fierce and another not so bad but doin it
bent the both of them using hot oil, heat lights, and a jig I made, i had watched a video that Larry "Midway" posted of an old English dude bending high dollar walnut shotgun stocks once he got them right it was like moulding plasticine.

The CVA (Beech wood) I did took a huge amount of effort - I got it to drop about a half inch at the point of the comb but woulda liked more - The other one (wood they call Brazilian Walnut here) bent easily once I got it hot enough.

Raising sight height will get it done but can look kinda ugly


[ Raising sight height will get it done but can look kinda ugly[/QUOTE] ] IF it is accurate, I do not care what it looks like.

[GL49]

I can shoot the two Hawkins my sons own and not get smacked in the cheekbone like mine does, the third one I've only shot once but I don't remember a problem. With mine I know I'm going to get hit, almost to the point of hating to pull the trigger. I'm loading 80gr 2F, measured not weighed, under a round ball. I haven't tried backing off from that, it shoots pretty good at the 50 yard range that my old eyes can see. Looking at my rifle from the curved buttplate looking towards the sights, it almost seems like I can see the stock bent towards my cheekbone. Then again, it could be my imagination because maybe that's what I want to see. I shoot right-handed and right-eyed, it sounds like indian joe and LAGS have had the same problem, Pietro, thanks for the insight. I need to refinish the stock anyway, a few seasons of muzzleloader elk hunting have taken their toll. I'm not too much concerned about reselling a stock or if it doesn't look like the original configuration, I just want to get rid of the cheekbone slap. It's just like indian joe said, I need to scrunch my face down on it to get a decent sight picture and ..... whammo.
I've been thinking about tweaking the stock a little bit (heating and bending) and/or removing the cheekpiece to give myself a little more clearance. I was just wondering if anyone else has had this problem and what they did about it. Taller sights would also probably fix the problem.
Elk season ended Friday, you're right, I've got all winter to work on this.
Thanks for the input, I've got some good ideas and think I'll probably reshape the stock a bit. I'm going to take it out and pay a bit more attention to what's really happening before getting started.
Larry

[243winxb]

Take 1/8" off the comb, at a time, till it fits better. Better yet, grow a big bushy beard. The guns butt is what kills my shoulder, firing a T/C maxi-ball with 110 grs 2F in 45 caliber.

A trap shooters i seen, put baby powder on cheek before shooting. Stock doesnt grab the skin.

Try a thin pad on the comb? Kick Eez Cheek Eez Cheek Protector 5" x 6" Black. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1913144343?pid=237314

[carbine]

Have someone film you so you can see the issue.

[LAGS]

If you have the two other rifles that don't slap you available.
Compare them with your stock.
Even if they are not the exact same models.
To compare my stock that I like I take off the barrels and just compare the dimensions on the stock.
Your base line is the top of the barrel channel and the trigger locations.
Compare Length of Pull first.
Then Drop in the Comb.
Also check the Line of the barrel channel center to the line down thru the buttstock.
I use a piece of string to do that.
That will tell if your stock curves out further towards your cheek.
Not a Warp , but measurements from the centerline of the barrel channel.
Or if the Cheek piece sticks out further then theirs.
Also.
Compare the specific points of their rifles to yours using the three reference lines.
I remove the barrels and turn the stock up side down on the bench and clamp it in one point so your bench becomes you reference line.

[waksupi]

I close my eyes, shoulder the rifle, and if I'm not looking right down the sights when I open my eyes, out comes the rasp until the gun fits me.

[LAGS]

@Waksupi.
That is the exact method I used on that one rifle that I had to form a Depression in the Cheek piece to get it to stop kicking my cheekbone.

[indian joe]

Part of my issue was .......the thing kicked
54 cal with a 15/16 barrel, light wood stock, it weighed less than 7 pounds. I started shooting it with 120 grains FFg - dang thing shot so good I kept doin it - then backed off to 100 - I ran the numbers through one of those online calculators and got its well in excess of a 30-06.
Hits right where ya point it so long as ya dont blink - after the stock rework its much better - got a bit of a soft spot for this cannon, over the years its got me a couple of good wins against some pretty stiff competition.

[LAGS]

I had a guy bring me a TC Renagade that he said Kicked him if he did hunting loads.
He also said it was Barrel Heavy for him.
I cast up a 3/4" lead rod that weighed about 1 lb.
I took off the butt plate and drilled a hole in the stock for the lead weight.
I glued it into the stock with caulking.
He said that solved both of his problems.
I had installed a recoil pad on that stock before.
But he said that didn't help enough.

[indian joe]

I had a guy bring me a TC Renagade that he said Kicked him if he did hunting loads.
He also said it was Barrel Heavy for him.
I cast up a 3/4" lead rod that weighed about 1 lb.
I took off the butt plate and drilled a hole in the stock for the lead weight.
I glued it into the stock with caulking.
He said that solved both of his problems.
I had installed a recoil pad on that stock before.
But he said that didn't help enough.

Good job!!

I made a 2 pound lead buttplate for my carbine weight sharps - cured the recoil problem - it drags its tail now but get used to it

I did your trick and added a pound rod to my 76 Uberti, already had the hole bored in the stock for the (non existent) cleaning rod that stores there. I reckoned the gun didnt shoot as accurate with it in so removed after a couple of shoots - proly all in me head ??????

[LAGS]

The weight and balance of a rifle all depends on the shooter.
Like I had someone ask me to cut 8" off a Long Barrel Kit Carson rifle to make it fit him better.
It worked great for him as you probably seen in other posts.
Now he is thinking about going to a different Rear Sight to fit his eyes better.

[indian joe]

[ Raising sight height will get it done but can look kinda ugly ] IF it is accurate, I do not care what it looks like.[/QUOTE]

some of us do........................care if it looks ugly

[indian joe]

The weight and balance of a rifle all depends on the shooter.
Like I had someone ask me to cut 8" off a Long Barrel Kit Carson rifle to make it fit him better.
It worked great for him as you probably seen in other posts.
Now he is thinking about going to a different Rear Sight to fit his eyes better.

the more I got into muzzleloaders (and got older) the more I came to like longer barrels - I also do better offhand with a bit of weight out front.

[LAGS]

You might be correct Joe.
But that rifle was for a Skinny First Time Shooter.
Front weight was not to his liking.

[indian joe]

You might be correct Joe.
But that rifle was for a Skinny First Time Shooter.
Front weight was not to his liking.

correct for me - took a while to figure it out too ! (skinny I am not!)
with your help he will figure out what works best for him
teach him to shoot offhand - there is huge satisfaction in shooting a nice target standing

I turned 40 (in 1988) some fellers that never rode act the fool and buy a Harley, others trade in their faithful wife for a 25 year old blonde, I decided to revamp my gun cabinet .

Changed out a fair bit of stuff and on a whim I bought a CVA kentucky kit gun - had some blackpowder from foolin around with old winchesters twenty years previous.
But knew absolutely nothing - I got Sam Fadalas "Complete Blackpowder Handbook" and the Blackpowder Loading Manual. Wished I had done that 25 years earlier -

my family were shotgun people (we had a few 22's) nobody taught me anything about iron sights - I couldnt hit with them - bought a crummy little scope when I was 15 and cobbled up a mounting system for my 22single shot - yep that worked - from then until I 'met' Sam I shot scopes and leaned on things to get steady enough to hit.

So that little Kentucky kit and Sam Fadalas instruction book opened a door to a whole new world for me

[megasupermagnum]

This is just my opinion, but reshaping the stock seem a really extreme way to fix the problem. It seems way easier to simply install taller sights.

[GL49]

This is just my opinion, but reshaping the stock seem a really extreme way to fix the problem. It seems way easier to simply install taller sights.
Yessir, it sure would be. I've got a tang sight that fits my Lyman Great Plains but have no idea how it would match up with a Thompson Center. Or if it would be taller, I'm gonna have to dig it out and take a look. I sure don't want to have to scrunch over the stock like I do now. Ouch.

[LAGS]

The tang on a TC and Lyman are not the same angle.
So the Lyman tang sight had a wedge shaped piece that sits on the tang to make up for the more drop in the tang of the Lyman like the GPR
I have one of those Lyman tang sights that I bought for the Lyman GPR kit I am going to build.
But have used that sight on several of my TC's

[indian joe]

This is just my opinion, but reshaping the stock seem a really extreme way to fix the problem. It seems way easier to simply install taller sights.

maybe so - but now I know how to do something I didnt know before - added another little notch to my skill set
also I did not want a two inch high frontsight perched on the end of my muzzleloader barrel

[wgr]

Lowering the Comb or Cheek piece a 1/4" makes a big difference.
I did one where I carved / sanded a depression in the cheek piece.
==1 i took mine down about the same

[bigted]

I have reshaped a few and turned super uncomfortable muzzlestuffers into pleasant shooters.

My style is first to install a kinda vintage lookin leather lace up pad. This is twosome important. First off it adds an inch to the LOP. Also if you need more than an inch you can add a bit more to the LOP without it showing (I also need esthetic appeal) . The obvious advantage is ... its a recoil pad.

Next I do the same trick with eyes closed, mount the rifle and open my eyes. This gives an exact indication as to where to begin shaving wood. Personally I do not get along with cheek pieces so my rifles always get this cheek slapping hunk of wood removed.

My TC Hawkins rifle is set with a leather butt pad and the cheekpiece removed as well as the comb carved down from the buttplate to the beginning of the comb rite at the end of the wrist. I also installed a 54 cal 32 inch 66 twist roundball barrel on it. Green mountain barrel.

Remember...your head height is dependant on either the comb height or the front sight height. For me the cheekpiece always seems to be a slapper ... unless of course it has castoff built into the stock.

Thats my bit.

[jjamna]

You say you can shoot the ones your sons shoot no problem. Sounds to me like you need to trade guns with one of them. Problem solved.

[Good Cheer]

We're all different, which is why guns should be. :)

[OverMax]

Good candidate for a Renegade.

[LAGS]

I too like stocks that have a larger drop in the stock.
My favorite stock is my Mowrey .50 cal.
It is a basic copy of an 1835 Ethan Allen rifle.
My favorite rifle style is the Hawkens.
But those too I like better with the drop in the stock like the Lyman GPR's.