Reloading 45-70

[Mint]

Hey,

So far I'm very new to reloading and under my belt I have the infinitesimally small amount of 50 rounds of .357 magnum loaded, and 50 rounds of .44 magnum loaded.

I intend to keep reloading these at the same start loads for the foreseeable future.

In the meantime i also want to start buying supplies to feed my 45-70 lever guns (a Chiappa 1886 and a Winchester/Miroku 1886).

Is there anything about this that seems like a bad idea to start this now, or should I wait until I have reloaded handgun calibers for several months? I'm hoping 45-70 is "forgiving" as 357/44 magnum, which so far have been a delight.

Are there any extra or additional points I must be made aware of when loading 45-70?

Here are my questions so far...

1. I understand there's 3 levels to it. I was intending to look only at the "Trapdoor" level, level 1. As a side question, I often see level 2, the middle level, labeled as "lever guns", but then in other loading books it will show "for 1895 only" which is a lever gun, but without listing an 1886. Ive also seen 1886 mentioned in the trap door section. So I'm confused if the trapdoor level is actually the highest level my guns are capable of (which would mean I don't have as much of a buffer as I would like). I was hoping 1886 can support up to level 2 max pressure, which means if I stay at the trapdoor level I have room for beginner variations.

2. Why arent carbide dies available for 45-70? Is it because it's just too big, despite being straight walled?

3. From what I gather, the only real difference in reloading is that I need to lube the case and wipe it off because it's a steel die. Is there any other changes to the loading process from 44 magnum?

[BLAHUT]

Contact the gun maker and ask safe pressures or Stay is the trapdoor region, and you will be ok. I do not resize my 45/70 when they are shot in the same gun. I bell the mouth every load to keep from shaving lead off the bullet. I only crimp if I am loading more than one in gun, brass lasts longer the less you work it. Brass lasts longer with light loads. Flat nose bullets with a wide face for lever guns. We all started some ware at one point, keep good Reckords. Keep primers seated well, flush or below flush. Try different weight bullets, different charge weights, your gun will tell you what load it likes. I use pure lead in all my .45 guns. I keep my loads at about 1200FPS, very accurate in my guns. If you are casting your own, you will need to find a lube that your gun likes, fatter Bullets like .460 - .461 work best in mine. It' all about learning. Having fun, small groups, for me, the only interesting gun, is a very accurate one.

[Mint]

Contact the gun maker and ask safe pressures or Stay is the trapdoor region, and you will be ok. I do not resize my 45/70 when they are shot in the same gun. I bell the mouth every load to keep from shaving lead off the bullet. I only crimp if I am loading more than one in gun, brass lasts longer the less you work it. Brass lasts longer with light loads. Flat nose bullets with a wide face for lever guns. We all started some ware at one point, keep good Reckords. Keep primers seated well, flush or below flush. Try different weight bullets, different charge weights, your gun will tell you what load it likes. I use pure lead in all my .45 guns. I keep my loads at about 1200FPS, very accurate in my guns. If you are casting your own, you will need to find a lube that your gun likes, fatter Bullets like .460 - .461 work best in mine. It' all about learning. Having fun, small groups, for me, the only interesting gun, is a very accurate one.

Awesome advice, thanks. All makes sense.

I called them and they just said the gun is designed for SAAMI spec without much detail. So that would appear to be trapdoor level loads.

[JimB..]

It’s an easy caliber.
Before buying once-fired brass check the length. Hornady uses a short version for their ftx bullets, you’ll want to avoid it early in your reloading experience.

45-70 is a rifle caliber, lube it up before resizing.

[1Hawkeye]

It will be just like the others you are loading just a lot larger and just as versatile in the range of bullets you can load 180gr collar button up to a 540gr postell. Another thing is you don't need to go above the trapdoor loading data to enjoy them.

[Mint]

It’s an easy caliber.
Before buying once-fired brass check the length. Hornady uses a short version for their ftx bullets, you’ll want to avoid it early in your reloading experience.

45-70 is a rifle caliber, lube it up before resizing.

Ok cool. I don't plan to use FTX bullet just lead RNFP bullets.

Also I bought 300 new starline brass, so no once fired.

[groovy mike]

My go to loads are all 405 grain cast bullets both for low recoil plinking and for hunting. As noted above if you lube the brass and bell the case mouths and 45-70 is a very easy to load cartridge. For stocking up, my advice is to look for large rifle primers, 405 grain bullets and IMR3031 powder for hunting loads or H322 for zero recoil plinking loads. No need to hurt yourself with recoil on target loads. Have fun!

[Mint]

My go to loads are all 405 grain cast bullets both for low recoil plinking and for hunting. As noted above if you lube the brass and bell the case mouths and 45-70 is a very easy to load cartridge. For stocking up, my advice is to look for large rifle primers, 405 grain bullets and IMR3031 powder for hunting loads or H322 for zero recoil plinking loads. No need to hurt yourself with recoil on target loads. Have fun!

How much H322 do you use? All of my loads will be for plinking, as I don't do any hunting :)

[Mint]

EDIT I just realized this below is not correct because the cast boolit book is CUP not PSI. However there still is some confusion which I will look at again after I eat breakfast. I did find this which I'm going to read https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

One interesting note in studying 45-70 load data further, these "3 levels" actually don't correspond to the same pressure levels, which seems surprising

In my cast boolit book:

Level 1 PSI ("Trapdoor") ~ 18K max pressure - correction 18K CUP
Level 2 PSI ("1886/1895") ~ 28K max pressure - correction 28K CUP
Level 3 ... doesnt matter

But on Hodgdon:

Level 1 PSI ("Trapdoor") ~ 27.6K max pressure
Level 2 PSI ("Lever guns") ~ 38K max pressure
Level 3 ... doesnt matter

[JimB..]

EDIT I just realized this below is not correct because the cast boolit book is CUP not PSI. However there still is some confusion which I will look at again after I eat breakfast. I did find this which I'm going to read https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

One interesting note in studying 45-70 load data further, these "3 levels" actually don't correspond to the same pressure levels, which seems surprising

In my cast boolit book:

Level 1 PSI ("Trapdoor") ~ 18K max pressure - correction 18K CUP
Level 2 PSI ("1886/1895") ~ 28K max pressure - correction 28K CUP
Level 3 ... doesnt matter

But on Hodgdon:

Level 1 PSI ("Trapdoor") ~ 27.6K max pressure
Level 2 PSI ("Lever guns") ~ 38K max pressure
Level 3 ... doesnt matter

If you believe https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf then 18k CUP is about 9k PSI. I would guess that your cast bullet number are based on CUP measurements but already converted to PSI. I'm guessing.

[Mint]

If you believe https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf then 18k CUP is about 9k PSI. I would guess that your cast bullet number are based on CUP measurements but already converted to PSI. I'm guessing.

I definitely need to read about it a whole lot more later today when Im' done working, because I also found castboolits thread where PSI = CUP but only for 45-70

Larry gibson had great info about it


The variation is from "psi's" determined from C.U.P. and from peizo-transducer/strain gauge measurements. The two "psi's" are not the same and one can not be reliably converted from the other. The 45-70 Gvmt cartridge is one of those rare exceptions where the SAAMI C.U.P. and peizo-transducer MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) is the same; 28,000 psi. Where the afformentioned 18,000 psi comes from is a good question, perhaps Hodgdon can explain? Most BP and smokeless powder "trapdoor" level loads, including factory loads, for the 45-70 run 20,000 - 28,000 psi(M43) as per my own pressure measurements. Interestingly though a recent test of Remington 405 j bullet loads showed a psi of less than 11,000 with a correspondingly low velocity (1038 fps from 24" test barrel). A handload of 28 gr 5744 under a 405 - 415 gr cast will push 28,000 psi from the same test barrel.

Larry Gibson

More info Ive saved to read later https://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html

Here it mentions 1886 can handle up to 50,000 PSI. If thats true, that is comforting to know I have a bit of a higher "learning buffer" than 28K

[DocSavage]

Had a Browning 1886 used Marlin 1805 loads. Biggest bullet I could use was 450 gr anything bigger had to be seated pretty deeply. I can tell you one thing with heavy loads that curved steel butt plate will beat you senseless,hurts just to think about it.

[725]

If, as you say, you're probably not going hunting with this set up, I'd suggest you stay down in the "trapdoor" levels of loading. Top end trapdoor loads are a handful all their own. It almost made the American Bison extinct! Ha, ha. So punching paper doesn't require real heavy bullets and super fast performance. Load from a good, printed, re-load manual and always be suspicious of info from the internet. Some of the info is very insightful and some is just crazy. With experience, you'll see the difference soon. Enjoy your .45-70. It is a very easy one to load for and has a very, very wide utility range. Personally, I prefer the boolits I cast to be in the 350 to 400ish grain weight range, but that's me. I have cast & shot the 535's down to about 200's. Every gun is different and has a different design goal and every shooter has their own preferences. The fun is in experimenting to find what winds your clock. Stay safe.

[Mint]

Had a Browning 1886 used Marlin 1805 loads. Biggest bullet I could use was 450 gr anything bigger had to be seated pretty deeply. I can tell you one thing with heavy loads that curved steel butt plate will beat you senseless,hurts just to think about it.

Lol! That is funny. Yes... I can imagine. I remember when I first got the Chiappa I used 20 factory loads that were rated 27.8K PSI and those were rough (but fun!!!) I imagine going higher than that can get pretty intense.

[Mint]

I'm open to anyones suggestions for powders as well.

So far Accurate 5744 seems to be mentioned many times in my load manual as a solid, accurate choice.

However, I regularly see reports of unburned powder...

I do already have 2400 as sometimes that seems mentioned.

[Sgt H]

I have been reloading 45-70 for over 40 years and it is an easy round to load for. A wide variety of powders and bullets are usable. The 45-70 is actually not a "straight wall" but tapers from the base to the case mouth, thus no carbide dies. If your purpose is plinking/target loads I would not advise powders like 3031 and H322. I have found through testing that the single base extruded powders with a burn rate of 4198 or slower do not work well in light loads. 3031 and H322 both fit in this category. These powders do not burn well until the pressure gets to 25-28000psi which takes you out of the lower velocity plinking/target range. While the slower powders are usable at low pressures I have found extreme velocity spreads of 100fps or more. While you can still get decent accuracy at closer ranges (100 yards and under) the extreme velocity spreads cause too much vertical dispersion at long range. I shoot cowboy long range gong matches twice a month. Nobody I shoot with loads with any powder slower than 2400 or AA5744. Favorite powders among the group are Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and AA5744 in a variety of calibers to include 30-30, 38-55, 40-65 and 45-70 all with cast boolits. These powders are all double base and are easier to ignite and burn better at lower pressures yielding lower extreme spreads. Important when engaging targets at 400+ yards. Just as an example the difference in drop at 400 yards between a 400 grain 45-70 at 1200fps vs 1300fps is around 26 inches. I strive to get the velocity extreme spreads of my loads down to 30-40 fps which equates to a vertical dispersion of about 7 inches at 400 yards.

[Mint]

I have been reloading 45-70 for over 40 years and it is an easy round to load for. A wide variety of powders and bullets are usable. The 45-70 is actually not a "straight wall" but tapers from the base to the case mouth, thus no carbide dies. If your purpose is plinking/target loads I would not advise powders like 3031 and H322. I have found through testing that the single base extruded powders with a burn rate of 4198 or slower do not work well in light loads. 3031 and H322 both fit in this category. These powders do not burn well until the pressure gets to 25-28000psi which takes you out of the lower velocity plinking/target range. While the slower powders are usable at low pressures I have found extreme velocity spreads of 100fps or more. While you can still get decent accuracy at closer ranges (100 yards and under) the extreme velocity spreads cause too much vertical dispersion at long range. I shoot cowboy long range gong matches twice a month. Nobody I shoot with loads with any powder slower than 2400 or AA5744. Favorite powders among the group are Red Dot, Unique, 2400 and AA5744 in a variety of calibers to include 30-30, 38-55, 40-65 and 45-70 all with cast boolits. These powders are all double base and are easier to ignite and burn better at lower pressures yielding lower extreme spreads. Important when engaging targets at 400+ yards. Just as an example the difference in drop at 400 yards between a 400 grain 45-70 at 1200fps vs 1300fps is around 26 inches. I strive to get the velocity extreme spreads of my loads down to 30-40 fps which equates to a vertical dispersion of about 7 inches at 400 yards.

Wow, awesome, that's just what I was looking for. Thank you!

For AA5744 I have heard many people talk about unburned powder. Is that something that can be solved, or is this something I just "deal with"?

If you were to pick a powder *only* for 45-70 (and not those other calibers) which of those powders you mentioned would be most flexible/most preferable?

I have 2400 currently, but I am more than glad to buy a different one if it's more optimal.

Actually, your purpose for shooting is very similar to what I want to do. 50/100/200 range paper targets and gongs. I'd love to shoot further but our range is limited :D

[BLAHUT]

I'm open to anyones suggestions for powders as well.

So far Accurate 5744 seems to be mentioned many times in my load manual as a solid, accurate choice.

However, I regularly see reports of unburned powder...

I do already have 2400 as sometimes that seems mentioned.

I load a Lee 515gr bullet with 27grs of 5744 for my bear load, in my guide gun. Hurts on both ends, 5 shot touching at 100yds. I load a Lee 500 3R+ bullet in my roler with 42grs of blackhorn209, accurate out and beyond 1000yds.at about 1200FPS. Blackhorn209 has gotten crazy expensive now, about $140.00 a lp. I am looking at multi purpose FFF black substitute, about $29.00 lb. have not gotten any yet, but will soon, only have about 10 or so lbs of blackhorn209 left.

[Mint]

I load a Lee 515gr bullet with 27grs of 5744 for my bear load, in my guide gun. Hurts on both ends, 5 shot touching at 100yds. I load a Lee 500 3R+ bullet in my roler with 42grs of blackhorn209, accurate out and beyond 1000yds.at about 1200FPS. Blackhorn209 has gotten crazy expensive now, about $140.00 a lp. I am looking at multi purpose FFF black substitute, about $29.00 lb. have not gotten any yet, but will soon, only have about 10 or so lbs of blackhorn209 left.

Wow, I wish I could shoot out to 1000+ yards...

[Mint]

BTW regarding PSI/CUP I found this more helpful than that PDF. This is some very good info regarding the difference that I couldn't really find after a significant amount of googling.

https://reloadbench.freeforums.net/thread/5134/cup-psi

I'm more just saving this for myself for later because no doubt I will lose this link :)

[Bird]

I think all the above postings pretty much covers it.
I have an 1886 takedown Miroku, and here are a few of my experiences.
Trap door loads work fine, and don't beat you up. 300 to 405 grain plain based bullets up to 1400 fps work good without leading using IMR4198 or Unique powder. 0.458 to 0.459'' bullet diameters are good, but 0.460'' maybe a little too tight for my chamber. I use gas checked bullets only because I have been using higher velocity loads, which I am now turning away from. RCBS plain base mold 45-325, would be good, or something similar. If you want off the shelf bullets take a look here, https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/price-sheet, these work good.
Full power 1895 loads are ok in the newer 1886 rifles, but 5 or 6 of those is more than enough on any outing especially if it has a crescent butt plate.
As for reloading the 45-70, it is probably the easiest cartridge to load.

[Mint]

I think all the above postings pretty much covers it.
I have an 1886 takedown Miroku, and here are a few of my experiences.
Trap door loads work fine, and don't beat you up. 300 to 405 grain plain based bullets up to 1400 fps work good without leading using IMR4198 or Unique powder. 0.458 to 0.459'' bullet diameters are good, but 0.460'' maybe a little too tight for my chamber. I use gas checked bullets only because I have been using higher velocity loads, which I am now turning away from. RCBS plain base mold 45-325, would be good, or something similar. If you want off the shelf bullets take a look here, https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/price-sheet, these work good.
Full power 1895 loads are ok in the newer 1886 rifles, but 5 or 6 of those is more than enough on any outing especially if it has a crescent butt plate.
As for reloading the 45-70, it is probably the easiest cartridge to load.

Very cool.

I planned to stick with .459 diameter, but just out of curiosity how would one know if a bullet is too tight? (like in your case, with the .460).

And thanks for the bullet suggestion I will check them out.

Do you use an NOE expander plug? I was consideirng the RCBS cowboy dies but may at some point want to shoot jacketed rounds, so I may go that route with the plug

[BLAHUT]

Wow, I wish I could shoot out to 1000+ yards...

YOU can; YOU surly can; Find a range, someone there will help you, then practice, practice, and practice some more. When you get to the longer ranges you will maybe be needing a different rifle, a roler with a 30" or more tube, a falling block, a sharps, some of the guns used for longer ranges, along with the long range sights, the lever gun will get you out some, if and I say IF; you are real good, you might do, at a 1000 with a lever gun ???

[Mint]

YOU can; YOU surly can; Find a range, someone there will help you, then practice, practice, and practice some more. When you get to the longer ranges you will maybe be needing a different rifle, a roler with a 30" or more tube, a falling block, a sharps, some of the guns used for longer ranges, along with the long range sights, the lever gun will get you out some, if and I say IF; you are real good, you might do, at a 1000 with a lever gun ???

Haha, I meant there is just no range available by me, I have looked.

This was my original inspiration when I got my gun, here he is shooting a 990 yrd gong (7 minutes in):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jORtdPqr_A

[richhodg66]

A start load of 13 grains of Unique has worked well for me under any cast bullet in the normal weight range for 100 yard target shooting for me in the .45-70 for 100 yard target shooting. Accurate, low recoil, economical. That data is in the older Lyman manuals from the 70s and early 80s. Be careful of a double charge and don't use a filler of any kind.

[rockrat]

It might be straight walled, but the walls are not parallel like your 357 and 44 cases. It is tapered, so carbide 45-70 would be hard to make and expensive.
Trapdoor level load will give you plenty for plinking and easy on the shoulder

[BLAHUT]

Haha, I meant there is just no range available by me, I have looked.

This was my original inspiration when I got my gun, here he is shooting a 990 yrd gong (7 minutes in):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jORtdPqr_A

I have a 45/60, week gun, week linkage, very accurate.
Accuracy with a .458/.459 isn't there, then If you try a .460 in soft bullet or pure lead, accuracy may improve?? He talks about a different front sight, that would be like a peep in the front sight tunnel. I think I will need to look for one of these 1886 Winchesters ?
When you shoot steel, hits are what are counted, When you shoot paper, points are what is counted, ties are broken by X count.
An X ring at 1000 yds is 10 " Steel is more forgiving....

[Bird]

Very cool.

I planned to stick with .459 diameter, but just out of curiosity how would one know if a bullet is too tight? (like in your case, with the .460).

And thanks for the bullet suggestion I will check them out.

Do you use an NOE expander plug? I was consideirng the RCBS cowboy dies but may at some point want to shoot jacketed rounds, so I may go that route with the plug

To determine the largest cast bullet that will fit your chamber, you will need a couple of fired cases. Measure the internal diameter at the case mouth. That will be the largest diameter bullet that you can use.
When a round is fired in a chamber, the pressure blows out the brass to fit the chamber, and the bullet is propelled forward. As the pressure decreases the brass springs back a couple of thousands of an inch. So if you use a bullet that fits your fired brass, the reloaded round will fit your chamber with a couple of thou clearance, and there will be no problems chambering the round. The bores of the 1886 Miroku's seem to be consistent at 0.457''. A 0.458 to 0.459'' bullet size should work fine.
In my particular rifle, my fired brass neck inside diameter is 0.460'', which leaves it a bit tight on wiggle room, so I use 0.458'' sized bullets.

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

Kinda sad no one has suggested real black powder loads in here- the way God intended the .45-70 GOVT to be shot lol. Just kidding, but the West wasn't won on smokeless powder, and few things in life are more satisfying than handcrafted black powder cartridges. And, it is inherently accurate, and impossible to overcharge. Swiss powder and SPG lube are pretty much the standard in the BPCR world.

[Maine1]

Some good wisdom in this thread. one thing i did not catch- did you slug your bore?
45-70 is one of our oldest cartridges, and its pretty cool that people are still loading and shooting it. Part of the cool factor is that there is 100+ years of data, information, and experimentation done with it available.
Light button bullet loads, shot loads, wooden bullets, blanks, smokeless and black powders, and stompy heavy loads, all in one gun.
Buying new starline brass was a very smart move- it will last a good long time, and you will get lots of shooting out of it.
I like 3031 for full power loads, but trailboss is good too, as is 2400, and many, many others.....its not picky! 45-70 is a great choice for the end of the world as well.
That Mikoru is a very well made rifle, and bet the other is as well, the 1886 is a good design.

[Bird]

Mint,
Sorry I missed you question on expander plugs. I use a Lee die set that has the expander plug built into the die. Its called a powder through expanding die, and is similar to the pistol type dies in operation.
https://www.titanreloading.com/product/4570-3-die-steel-set/

[Randy Bohannon]

Mint, Some ideas on expanding dies, first and foremost you do not want to “bell” the case mouth on 45-70 brass that’s for semi auto pistols that head space on the case mouth and jacketed bullets. Measure the case mouth of a fired piece of brass from your given rifle,this number is your bullet size. You want to expand FL sized brass to that number not ‘bell’. Belling to accommodate a .460” bullet over works the brass and often so much so it won’t enter the crimp die. Their are expander dies that are specific to cast bullets and specific sizes that expand and not bell.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/459-460-custom-expander-fo-van459460.html

[mehavey]

Let me suggest: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?412527-45-70-quot-medium-quot-loads-casting-questions&p=5035519&viewfull=1#post5035519

As to "unburned" 5744, won't worry about it. Irrelevant to the fact that 5744 is one of the best medium-performance 45-70 propellants out there. *

As to bullet sizing, I suggest .459" (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6637743&postcount=1)

As to case sizing, resize enough that a new cast bullet will no longer enter the case by hand. That's enough in general. (Me? I just FL resize an don't worry about it.)

As to "belling" the case, expand/bell enough that the cast bullet will freely seat about a dime's width into the case before fully seating in the press. Prevent shaving.

As to crimp, use one in that `86 -- both for consistent ignition and for tubular loading stability to prevent set-back.



* 12gr of Unique/405gr cast is also a classic BP load

[lawdog941]

A start load of 13 grains of Unique has worked well for me under any cast bullet in the normal weight range for 100 yard target shooting for me in the .45-70 for 100 yard target shooting. Accurate, low recoil, economical. That data is in the older Lyman manuals from the 70s and early 80s. Be careful of a double charge and don't use a filler of any kind.

This^. Pistol/Shotgun powders will do for plinking until you get comfortable. I used this site http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm.

[15meter]

I'm open to anyones suggestions for powders as well.

So far Accurate 5744 seems to be mentioned many times in my load manual as a solid, accurate choice.

However, I regularly see reports of unburned powder...

I do already have 2400 as sometimes that seems mentioned.


Accurate states that you WILL get unburned kernels with 5744. It will not effect accuracy.

It will dent the next case unless you lower the barrel and blow them out. Found that out on a 50-70 Trapdoor.

Jumping to a 45-70 from pistol calibers is not that difficult. My first rifle caliber was .308 with a whack-a-mole. Next was the 50-70 using "normal" dies and press.

And it sounds like you do zero lubing on the pistol calibers. Try a LITTLE Imperial sizing wax on every 10th case, I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the results.

And long range is fun. We've got 300 yards at my club and big slow slugs are a hoot.

Slower the better. Used to load 4.4 grains of Clays under a 330 grain boolit in 45-70. 200 yards you were aiming about 12 feet above the dinger to ring it. Never stuck one in the barrel, but I checked just to make sure between every shot.

There was an article on, I think, Castpics with whisper loads for .223, 30-30, 30-06, 45-70. Worth the time to print off a copy. Think the info may have migrated here.

[Mint]

Mint, Some ideas on expanding dies, first and foremost you do not want to “bell” the case mouth on 45-70 brass that’s for semi auto pistols that head space on the case mouth and jacketed bullets. Measure the case mouth of a fired piece of brass from your given rifle,this number is your bullet size. You want to expand FL sized brass to that number not ‘bell’. Belling to accommodate a .460” bullet over works the brass and often so much so it won’t enter the crimp die. Their are expander dies that are specific to cast bullets and specific sizes that expand and not bell.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/459-460-custom-expander-fo-van459460.html

Hmm maybe I am using the wrong phrase. Perhaps you can tell me if my plan is correct aside from terminology.

I was going to buy .459 diameter lead bullet (.001 over). Then, I was going to buy an NOE rifle-type expander plug which is .460 x .456, which will result in .002 neck tension.

This is what I did for 357 mag / 44 mag. Aside from the phrase "bell" is that the correct method of expansion step for 45-70 rifle w/ steel dies?

[BLAHUT]

Hmm maybe I am using the wrong phrase. Perhaps you can tell me if my plan is correct aside from terminology.

I was going to buy .429 diameter lead bullet (.001 over). Then, I was going to buy an NOE rifle-type expander plug which is .460 x .456, which will result in .002 neck tension.

This is what I did for 357 mag / 44 mag. Aside from the phrase "bell" is that the correct method of expansion step for 45-70 rifle w/ steel dies?

.429 in a 45/70 ???? Did you mean .458/.459 ??? Too bell opens up the case mouth so you can insert a bullet with out shaving lead off the sides. Lee has a through the die, powder expanding die. In steel.

[Mint]

.429 in a 45/70 ???? Did you mean .458/.459 ??? Too bell opens up the case mouth so you can insert a bullet with out shaving lead off the sides. Lee has a through the die, powder expanding die. In steel.

lol yeesh, yes, that was a typo. I meant to say .459 (lead bullet, .001 oversized)

[KAYDADOG]

Some further 45-70 load information.
I always wanted to get a lever action in a larger caliber since I have a Uberti 44-40.
To match this rifle invested in a 1886 Uberti 45-70 which are very nice looking and shooting rifles.
Using a RCBS mold 300-gr gas checked bullet to start loading. Finished weight around 330/gr average.
Since I bought Varget powder years ago at a good price I wanted to use it for this caliber.
I did three test loads to start with to see the results and recoil.
These would all be shot in a 25/yd indoor range.
Load 1, 46.0/gr Varget 34-rounds
Load 2, 48.0/gr Varget 8-rounds
Load 3, 50.0/gr Varget 8-rounds
All the loads were very accurate if you could hold almost a 9/lb rifle steady off shoulder.
Load 1 recoil was considered mild, and the recoil went up very little from there.
For future indoor shooting I would load the cast-GC bullet to 48.0/gr of Varget, anything higher wouldn't be needed for an indoor range.
Overall Uberti rifles are expensive but as always you get what you pay for.

My future plans are to make 45-70 jacketed bullets since I have thousands of 44/cal copper jackets which work very well for 45/cal bullets.
I will also make test rounds using 40-S&W cases for jackets which I now use for 45/ACP rounds.
Cost for bullets $0.05 to $0.10 each depending on what type of jacket is used.
It will actually be cheaper for me to make jacketed bullets VS casting bullets using a gas check.
The dies have been on order from Corbin but delivery may take one year, we'll see.

Some further information for everyone who loads this round.

[Sgt H]

Mint, Bird is on target with boolit diameter. The Miroku made 1886's tend to have tight chambers and barrels. Both of my 1886 Brownings slugged at .457". The chamber on the 1886 rifle is tight enough that a round loaded with a .459" boolit will not drop into the chamber all the way under it's own weight and a slight resistance is felt pushing them in by hand. I size .458" for the 1886, my Sharps likes .459" seated out far enough to contact the lands when chambered. You mentioned having 2400, 22-24 grains under a 400 grain boolit pretty much duplicates the original 45-70-405 service load. To shoot long range you will need a vernier tang sight with enough vertical adjustment. A ballistic calculator such as JBM calculations will get you your trajectory and wind drift for long range so you can get a base sight setting. You need to know your boolits weight, BC and muzzle velocity. Another factor at long range is spin drift. A 45-70 with a 1 in 20 RH twist rifling can have 2.5-4 MOA drift to the right at 800-1000 yards. The Buffington sights on Trapdoors had compensation for this built in.

[Mint]

Accurate states that you WILL get unburned kernels with 5744. It will not effect accuracy.

It will dent the next case unless you lower the barrel and blow them out. Found that out on a 50-70 Trapdoor.

Jumping to a 45-70 is not that difficult. My first rifle caliber was .308 with a whack-a-mole. Next was the 50-70 using "normal" dies and press.

And it sounds like you do zero lubing on the pistol calibers. Try a LITTLE Imperial sizing wax on every 10 case, I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the results.

And long range is fun. We've got 300 yards at my club and big slow slugs are a hoot.

Slower the better. Used to load 4.4 grains of Clays under a 330 grain boolit in 45-70. 200 yards you were aiming about 12 feet above the dinger to ring it. Never stuck one in the barrel, but I checked just to make sure between every shot.

There was an article on, I think, Castpics with whisper loads for .223, 30-30, 30-06, 45-70. Worth the time to print off a copy. Think the info may have migrated here.

Interesting about the unburned... that is somewhat of a large annoyance for plinking to have to be blowing down the barrel every shot...

Thanks for the sizing wax, I actually bought some of that and it's sitting here so I'll try taht. Are you saying you do that instead of the full case lubing? In other words I don't lube the cases at all except the wax every 10?

[Mint]

Mint, Bird is on target with boolit diameter. The Miroku made 1886's tend to have tight chambers and barrels. Both of my 1886 Brownings slugged at .457". The chamber on the 1886 rifle is tight enough that a round loaded with a .459" boolit will not drop into the chamber all the way under it's own weight and a slight resistance is felt pushing them in by hand. I size .458" for the 1886, my Sharps likes .459" seated out far enough to contact the lands when chambered. You mentioned having 2400, 22-24 grains under a 400 grain boolit pretty much duplicates the original 45-70-405 service load. To shoot long range you will need a vernier tang sight with enough vertical adjustment. A ballistic calculator such as JBM calculations will get you your trajectory and wind drift for long range so you can get a base sight setting. You need to know your boolits weight, BC and muzzle velocity. Another factor at long range is spin drift. A 45-70 with a 1 in 20 RH twist rifling can have 2.5-4 MOA drift to the right at 800-1000 yards. The Buffington sights on Trapdoors had compensation for this built in.

So are you saying the .459 is too tight for the Miroku? I wasnt sure if "not dropping in all the way" is a problem or not. Like if you shoot those anyway does that mean increased leading or something?

Also how are you actually testing that, do you just open the lever, place the loaded round in with the gun angled down and see if the round seats 100% by gravity?

[mehavey]

FWIW: My Miroku 1886 eats 459s/Starline brass just fine.

[rmcc]

I have 3 Trapdoors and 2 Marlin 1895s. My go to powders are IMR 4198 and IMR 3031. You get a decent loading density for consistent ignition. My 2 cents worth is to stay in the Trapdoor range of velocities. I have loaded up hunting loads for the Marlins and the only difference I could tell was the amount of punishment I was taking, the animals were just as dead!! It is a great cartridge, one of the reasons it has been around since 1873. As stated above, the less you work the brass, the longer it will last. Enjoy your reloading!! These guys here are the absolute BEST for advice!! I have been reloading since 1982 and I learn something from these guys everytime I am on here.

rmcc

[15meter]

Interesting about the unburned... that is somewhat of a large annoyance for plinking to have to be blowing down the barrel every shot...

Thanks for the sizing wax, I actually bought some of that and it's sitting here so I'll try taht. Are you saying you do that instead of the full case lubing? In other words I don't lube the cases at all except the wax every 10?

This is for straight walled pistol cases being sized in carbide dies. The traditional "no lube necessary with carbide pistol dies" is true. But a little help on lubricity can make things go in and out a smidge easier.:bigsmyl2:

Lube rifle cases each and every one.

Had a buddy who got in a rush because he waited until the last minute to load for an Cape Buffalo hunt and stuck a 450 N.E. That was an interesting 10:00 pm phone call. He was in total panic, had never stuck a case before and ruined TWO shell holders trying to get the case out. He had no idea how to deal with it. He thought either the die went back to RCBS or he had to get a new die. Two days before he left for Africa. 11:00 he's in my shed and I showed him how to remove a stuck case and we discovered that the 450 N.E. and the 50-70 use the same shellholder. And I had a pair for my Trapdoor.

He was a pretty happy camper. He has seen the light on lubing rifle cases. And not waiting until the last minute.

He going back for another Cape Buffalo in May, I've already loaded up 40 rounds of 450-400 N.E. with Woodleigh's and bushels of RL-15 plus a bunch of cast boolits loads to practice manipulating and sighting the rifle.

You load those, you watch the powder in the reservoir drop dramatically with every throw.


And just realized this is post 1957, my favorite number, my sail number on the first ice boat that I owned, bought in 1980. Sailed up to, I think 6 years ago, when I ripped the front 3 feet off the nose of the hull. Good times. That sail is now on it's replacement boat. And I should be gluing up a new runner plank for that boat instead of kibitzing here or I'm going to rip another boat in half.

Everybody buys epoxy by the gallon right?

[Sgt H]

Mint, the .459" is not too tight. The resistance is very slight, when cycled through the magazine it is not enough to notice. I only noticed it loading singe rounds at the range. There is no leading and have had no issues firing those rounds. If you have a chamber neck that is so tight the case cannot expand and release the bullet when the powder ignites then you have potential grenade. An easy way to check is to insert a bullet into a fired case. If the bullet will slip into the fired case you are fine.

[Soundguy]

45-70 is easy to reload for as rifle cartridges go. it's like a big straight walled pistol cartridge.

FYI.. CH4D used to make a TiN 45-70 size die...

[Mint]

Mint, the .459" is not too tight. The resistance is very slight, when cycled through the magazine it is not enough to notice. I only noticed it loading singe rounds at the range. There is no leading and have had no issues firing those rounds. If you have a chamber neck that is so tight the case cannot expand and release the bullet when the powder ignites then you have potential grenade. An easy way to check is to insert a bullet into a fired case. If the bullet will slip into the fired case you are fine.

Thanks I definitely will try that out.