Lee Crimp Die on 45-70?

[mikeh3]

Anyone use a Lee Crimp Die when reloading for a 45-70 or does anyone crimp their cases?
Thanks,
Mike

[jlchucker]

I certainly do. The 45-70, IMO needs to have a firm crimp. about 5 or 6 years ago, a friend of mine and regular at the local rural gunshop (firing range attached) bought a new Ruger #1 in 45-70, and was having accuracy problems, even though he was loading some jacketed bullets fairly hot. I happened to have some cast Lyman 385 Gr roundnose, loaded fairly stiff, for my Marlin. He tried some in his Ruger, and immediately noticed considerably tighter groups. He then started crimping his own 45-70 loads and his Ruger groups tightened right up. I've no way to prove it, but I think that a good, firm crimp on a straight case like the 45-70 is needed to make the powder burn more uniformly. Notice that most handgun rounds, like the 45ACP, 45LC, 357, and 44 mag for example are always crimped as a part of the loading process.

[mikeh3]

Thanks for your reply.
I'm new to casting. I haven't been crimping my jacketed reloads and didn't know if cast bullets were crimped or not. I'll order a Lee crimp die tomorrow. This is my first 45-70 and I'm ansious to cast my first bullet, load and get to the range when the bad weather breaks.

[EDG]

I use one to remove the bell form the cases and apply a light crimp but I use mild loads and never apply a heavy crimp

[35remington]

If you are speaking of the Lee Factory Crimp Die (LFCD) there is an effect that needs to be watched.

The crimp ring doesn't iron completely out of the case on firing. This puts somewhat of a "squeeze" on the bullet on the way out of the case, and may scrape the bearing surfaces somewhat. This is of no moment on jacketed bullets, but may or may not have some effect on lead bullets. Theoretically the bearing surface of the bullet could be somewhat affected, but practical results matter most.

Test with and without the LFCD to see what the effect is. It may cause no harm, most likely, but is something to be aware of and test.

Somewhat brittle alloys like linotype when used in bullets can be cut in half with overapplication of the LFCD. BTDT.

I see no benefit of the LFCD over standard roll crimps when used with lead bullets, and in terms of nondeformation of the bullet the roll crimp is superior.

[EDG]

If you are speaking of the Lee Factory Crimp Die (LFCD) there is an effect that needs to be watched.

The crimp ring doesn't iron completely out of the case on firing. This puts somewhat of a "squeeze" on the bullet on the way out of the case, and may scrape the bearing surfaces somewhat. This is of no moment on jacketed bullets, but may or may not have some effect on lead bullets. Theoretically the bearing surface of the bullet could be somewhat affected, but practical results matter most.

Test with and without the LFCD to see what the effect is. It may cause no harm, most likely, but is something to be aware of and test.

Somewhat brittle alloys like linotype when used in bullets can be cut in half with overapplication of the LFCD. BTDT.

I see no benefit of the LFCD over standard roll crimps when used with lead bullets, and in terms of nondeformation of the bullet the roll crimp is superior.

Either crimp methos can be overdone and produce negative results.

[454PB]

In my opinion, use the crimper supplied in the dies you are already using. That's what I do, and I've had no problems.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hello- I've been loading for the 45/70 for a long time and I agree that this round needs to be crimped, even if shot in a single shot, Ruger#1, T.C. etc. I have always had my best groups when using a crimp, not excessive , but firm. In my Marlin Levers this is necessary, heavy loads recoil to much to just seat the bullet, makes no difference if Cast Or Jacketed, they will set back in the case under recoil, as far as the powder charge will let them, so for my 2 cents worth, use the crimp die, not to excess..S.L. 45/70:)

[JesterGrin_1]

I am surprised by the lack of participants in this thread but I will give you my thoughts on this as I only load for a few rounds and 45-70 in my Marlin 1895GS is one of my favorites. What I have learned the hard way is the Lee Die set is fine if you are loading jacketed rounds. But if you are going to use cast they do not work all that well since the cast BOOLITS are normally oversize to fit the bore of the rifle better. So for cast I like the RCBS Dies or the RCBS Cowboy dies for the 45-70 as the Cowboy dies are designed with the cast BOOLIT in mind.

So to be honest I have the Lee Die set up for my Hornady 350Gr J/RN and my RCBS Dies set up for my Ranch Dog 350Gr GC. :)

[jack19512]

What I have learned the hard way is the Lee Die set is fine if you are loading jacketed rounds. But if you are going to use cast they do not work all that well since the cast BOOLITS are normally oversize to fit the bore of the rifle better.





That's odd, I use nothing but Lee die sets and load a lot of 45/70 and have had real good success with my 45/70 cast boolits and Lee dies. :confused: And yes, I use the Lee crimp die on my 45/70.

[Freightman]

That's odd, I use nothing but Lee die sets and load a lot of 45/70 and have had real good success with my 45/70 cast boolits and Lee dies. :confused: And yes, I use the Lee crimp die on my 45/70.

ME to!

[Ben]

jlchucker :

I'll have to differ with you on one point. You say handgun rounds like the 45 ACP are crimped.

You put a crimp on the 45 ACP and you'll have a mis fire as that round h/spaces on the end of the case.

Ben

[13Echo]

Shooting black powder in my 1884 Trapdoor I find the lighter bullets such as the 405gr Lee hollow base need a good crimp or accuracy suffers. The 500gr projos do fine with little or no crimp. The regular crimp from the Lee seater die does a fine job. It turns the mouth over the front crimp band just the right amount to get a firm crimp without distorting the bullet. I have not seen a need for the Lee FCD in 45-70. At least for cast bullets it seems to be a solution in search of a problem.

If you are having a problem with Lee dies not expanding enough for lead bullets you might Wolf's Western Traders. They sell an expander plug for the die that is designed specifically for cast bullets.

Jerry Liles

[JesterGrin_1]

That's odd, I use nothing but Lee die sets and load a lot of 45/70 and have had real good success with my 45/70 cast boolits and Lee dies. :confused: And yes, I use the Lee crimp die on my 45/70.


I am glad to hear that your Lee Dies work fine for cast but mine did not. The Lee crimp die that came with mine is too tight which will undersize the BOOLIT a bit. But then again my Cast BOOLITS for my Marlin are sized .460.

Now I have read on this forum that I can hone out the Lee Die a bit so that it will work fine but I decided that since I had the set of RCBS Dies that I used for my BPCR in 45-70 I would just use those since I know they work well and use the Lee for Jacketed.

:castmine:

[Cowboy5780]

ive got the 45-70 crimp factory crimp die i load 38 grs of imr 3031 under a 500 gr cast gaschecked mold with a good healthy crimp, i havent chronoed it yet but it give all the kick you want and @ 100 yd with do a 1 inch 3 shot group. Am going tomorrow to try to buy a uberti 45-70 rifle, the other is my guide gun

[13Echo]

JesterGrin,

I'm shooting a Trapdoor and using bullets of .460 to .461" (Lee 405 hollow base, and SAECO 881). With the Wolf expander the bullets seat without shaving lead and the crimper in the seater die works fine without resizing the bullet. I suspect the Factory Crimp Die may resize the bullet, however, I've never used one and, at least for the 45-70, see no need for it.

Jerry Liles

[JSnover]

I plan to fit some cases using a light charge of smokeless and Lee 405s. I like to work the case mouths as little as possible. In a single-shot with the bullet seated to the rifling wouldn't the crimp be irrelevent? I like the idea of backing my seat/crimp die out so it just irons out the flare.

[13Echo]

The heavy crimp is more important with black powder, especially if the bullet is realtively light and has to bump up to fill the rifling as on most Trapdoor Springfields. Your load would likely require crimp only if it needed one to hold the bullet in place or you were feeding from a tubular magazine where recoil could cause bullet setback.

Jerry Liles

[7of7]

jlchucker :

I'll have to differ with you on one point. You say handgun rounds like the 45 ACP are crimped.

You put a crimp on the 45 ACP and you'll have a mis fire as that round h/spaces on the end of the case.

Ben

Ben,
All my 45 ACP are crimped,... Taper crimped, not roll crimped. I have yet to have a misfire, or any problems with both my 1911, and my Thompson...
So, are we talking taper, or roll crimps?

Anthony