Favorite Black Powder substitute?

[cabezaverde]

I have been using Blackhorn 209 behind T/C maxi balls in my Encore.

But holy smokes, the price when it comes time to re-stock. What do you guys like?

[NSB]

I just bought two of the new 8oz bottles of BH209 directly from Hodgdon Powder. I paid a crazy ridiculous amount of money for it, but……it’s enough to last me several years of deer hunting. I also use it in an Encore and a CVA in-line I just bought. For what it cost to use for hunting, it’s just not that bad a price to shoot a deer. As a percentage of my total annual cost to go deer hunting, it’s about nothing. I really don’t understand why people will spend a grand or more to go deer hunting every year and get excited about having to spend fifty or sixty bucks to shoot the gun they’re hunting with. FWIW, BH209 and Barnes TE-Z 290g bullets shoot 1moa out of both of my guns. I have tried Triple7 and it shoots almost as good, but it’s a cruddy mess in the barrel after every shot. No big deal, a patch with a spritz of Windex on it will clean it up quickly, but still it’s an “almost as good” substitute. Look at some of the centerfire round costs today. They’re also insanely high but you need ammo to hunt and it’s really a minimal cost compared to the total cost to participate.

[cabezaverde]

I might be spoiled. I hunt in my own woods behind the house.

[Nobade]

Black MZ wasn't too bad but I don't think they make it any more. I guess for price vs availability vs performance I would go with T7 if I had to use a substitute.

[Brokenbear]

Triple Seven 3F ONLY in everything from a .31 Colt to a .58 musketoon

[dave951]

Real black only. I compete using Swiss and I use Scheutzen when conducting an instruction session. Real black is available, don't let the naysayers tell you different. If you expect to find it in a "brick n mortar" location, forget it. Thanks to regulations and insurance coupled with few of the general shooting public using it, it's not economically feasible to stock it on a shelf on and off chance that John Q Public is going to stroll in and buy it.

You want real black? Pool your order with a local reenactment group or NMLRA charter club. That way the shipping and hazmat is amortized to peanuts in the grand picture. I just bought a case of Scheutzen not 4 weeks ago along with 4k Scheutzen musket caps. Not available?? Really?? Some folks just don't think outside the box or try hard enough.

[dondiego]

I substitute 2FF when I am low on 3FFF.......

[winelover]

Pyrodex "P" in all three of my muzzleloaders. Settled on that because of the ROA. Reduce volume by 10% over Pyrodex "RS".

Winelover

[Loudenboomer]

BH 209 is our powder of choice if your breech plug design will accept it. My Austin Halleck with the factory breech plug runs best with 777.

[hylander]

777 for everything

[FrankJD]

IMHO there is absolutely NO substitute for real black powder. I feed my firelocks Swiss 3f for both tube and pan.

Black can be hard if not impossible to find locally and that's where mail order or attending ML events will be yer only source for the real deal powder of choice.

In the coming possible dark future of America, how long commercial black will be available to US citizens is a viable concern. In that event, if I can still awake daily with a pulse and purpose, I'll make my own black. So sad where the world in general is heading, and America is currently its spearhead.

[toot]

I found 2 bottles of 2fg & 3fg of APP, AMERICAN PIONEER POWDER. that was clumped up, so I broke the clumps up with a wooden dowel, and both grades went off fine in my muzzleloaders & all brass shotgun hulls. question, is this powder still made,& has any one else used it? and comments.

[Jackrabbit1957]

I found 2 bottles of 2fg & 3fg of APP, AMERICAN PIONEER POWDER. that was clumped up, so I broke the clumps up with a wooden dowel, and both grades went off fine in my muzzleloaders & all brass shotgun hulls. question, is this powder still made,& has any one else used it? and comments.

Yes, it's still around. Black MZ was the same stuff but was discontinued. It's not as energetic as T7 but compares with Pyrodex. Clean up is very easy and it doesn't seem to have real corrosive properties. I like it, maybe it will come back.

[carbine]

Ive only shot real BP for the last 42 years. I agree with Dave

[Hellgate]

Shooter's World Multipurpose Black (BP substitute)
Is probably APP.
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/00130multiblack1/shooters-world-multi-purpose-fff-black-black-powder-substitute-1-lb-by-lovex

[Bowhunter73]

2-Triple 7 pellets with a 200gr Hornady flex tip for my hunting load in the Encore with a adapter for using large rifle primers

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Pyrodex. Some folks badmouth it as being corrosive, but I've never had a problem as I clean my guns the evening of firing.

DG

[BLAHUT]

Shooter's World Multipurpose Black (BP substitute) Looks interesting? A lot better than $140.00 a lb for blackhorn209. will have to see how it shoots and compares ?? Has any one tried it ?? How does it compare ??

[winelover]

Pyrodex. Some folks badmouth it as being corrosive, but I've never had a problem as I clean my guns the evening of firing.

DG:goodpost:

Winelover

[toot]

if my BP, powder pantry in low / dry I will use what ever substitute that I have I am not proud!! jmho.

[Froogal]

Pyrodex. Some folks badmouth it as being corrosive, but I've never had a problem as I clean my guns the evening of firing.

DG

Thinking of using Pyrodex myself. I have a nearly full one pound container but have shied away because of things I have read about it. I think the key is to clean the gun as soon as possible after shooting. Pyrodex seems to always be available. It simply cannot be as bad as what some folks claim.

[BLAHUT]

Thinking of using Pyrodex myself. I have a nearly full one pound container but have shied away because of things I have read about it. I think the key is to clean the gun as soon as possible after shooting. Pyrodex seems to always be available. It simply cannot be as bad as what some folks claim.

I have been told and found it loses power just sitting on the shelf with age.

[freakonaleash]

Thinking of using Pyrodex myself. I have a nearly full one pound container but have shied away because of things I have read about it. I think the key is to clean the gun as soon as possible after shooting. Pyrodex seems to always be available. It simply cannot be as bad as what some folks claim.

Clean it the day after you clean it too. I had that crap eat up one of my cartridge shotguns with damascus barrels.

[winelover]

I have been told and found it loses power just sitting on the shelf with age.

Tell that to the 8 point buck, I shot last month with ten year old (minimum) Pyrodex "P" in my .54 Renegade.


306967


Winelover

[T-Bird]

I've used pyrodex since it came out. I was young then but I had been told to clean your muzzle loading gun thoroughly right after shooting, had none of the problems that y'all have read about. I used it because real bp was not available here and there was no internet then. It was, in those days billed as being less corrosive than real black, but I still cleaned like it wasn't. I've used T7 lately, it works well too.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

I get good speed with T7 but I prefer to grind my own. 3F T7 works well in my revolvers. It will send a 36cal round ball over 1200fps out of my Remington Navy.

[centershot]

After using a bunch of them, I went back to using good old black powder. If I had to use a sub again, I'd use Triple 7, it's the only one that proved trustworthy to me.

[junkbug]

I understand the difficulty in finding real black powder. In the past I used Pyrodex, and may use it again. I find it more corrosive than black powder. After normal black powder cleaning, I clean a little more wit vinegar and water, or Windex. I also like Triple Seven in cap and ball revolvers. But black powder is still really satisfying. I am blessed to be able to get them all for now.

[omgb]

Pyrodex is no more damaging to a gun than BP. Lots of A** Hats make lots of noise about it but it's a powder for crying out loud. Clean your dang gun after use and you won't have an issue. Pyrodex is like the nice girl who is available for the prom. She's there, she's available and she will be an excellent companion. Sure, she's not the "Real Deal" but who really cares? Shooting is the name of the game and if you can't get BP, use Pyrodex. Your target won't know the difference and neither will you.

I shot Pyrodex exclusively while in Alaska 1976-1977 as it was all we could get. A wetter, less gun friendly climate I can't imagine. I had ZERO issues with it, zero. From late 77-1983 I burnt a lot of it in MLs and revolvers and I never had a corrosion issue. I still do use it, though honestly, I find BH209 more useful for most of my BP shooting. I recently restocked my BP supply via Buffalo Arms as my local Kommiefornia dealers have nothing. I ordered 20 lbs; a mix of Swiss and Schutzen. This will last me several years. I still use BH209 in my 32-20 and my inline. It's just nice to not have a fouling issue.

Go ahead and use Pyrodex and don't worry about all of the nay-sayers. If the powder was bad for your guns, Hodgdon would not want the litigation. Just clean your guns within 24 hrs of use or sooner if its damp in the air.
Reece

[triggerhappy243]

Been using pyrodex since 1981. diligent housekeeping is key. flushing out all the salt byproducts with clean water. some parts of the country has water with natural sodium in it.............. and maybe those folks don't put 2 and 2 together. Nothing wrong with Pyrodex, if you just do a thorough cleaning asap.

[megasupermagnum]

Of course there is no substitute for a real blackpowder for a flintlock. For percussion and modern primer guns, then there are tons of options. Lots of them have came and gone. Only 3 real substitutes have stood the test of time. Those are Pyrodex, the classic, then 777, and finally BH209.

I'll start with BH209 since there isn't much to it. It's been around for a little while now, and it does what it says it does. It's a very clean powder that you can load volume for volume in a modern muzzleloader with strong 209 primers. It's kind of funny to consider that the number of models of muzzleloaders that can shoot the stuff is relatively small, yet today they make up the majority of muzzleloader sales. Thompson Center is now gone, but they will remain on the used market. It's really just new CVA and Traditions muzzleloaders now that can shoot the stuff. Certain Knight rifles might be able to. BH209 is basically useless in a percussion gun, although some have made it work with a magspark adaptor. I'm not sure how it would work in a bigger rifle either, it doesn't work in shotguns at all. No matter the rifle, BH209 is only recomended for Winchester 209, CCI 209M (not the standard 209), and Federal 209A primers. All three have been MIA for about 2 years now. The powder itself has been very scarce even at good times, and it is insanely expensive. Close to $100 a pound last I checked.

There's a bunch of variations on Pyrodex. There's both standard and select. Then there are grades such as P, RS, CTG. They also used to come in pellets, but I don't think they exist anymore. I'm going to ignore pellets anyway since they are so limited in what they can be shot in. By far the most common thing people talk about with Pyrodex is RS, or rifle/shotgun. It also works in pistols. Pyrodex RS really is a good substitute for FFg blackpowder. It ignites with most percussion caps, and any 209's. It's about equal in strength to blackpowder volume for volume. It shoots pretty good. Best of all it is available. You can find it in a lot of places, and the price is not bad.

777 is like a modern Pyrodex. It's been around quite a while now though, about 20 years. It too comes in different versions, and a number of different pellets. Talking only about the loose form, it comes in "fffg" and "ffg" grades. Despite that, it is generally more powerful volume for volume than blackpowder of that grade. I would assume most people would be shooting ffg 777 since that is what I see at the store most often, but fffg grade is not hard to find either. The stuff shoots good. The velocity is a little higher than blackpowder, which mostly isn't a concern, but if you are shooting something with a space constraint such as a cap and ball revolver, it might be something to keep in mind.

This is only my opinion, but I think BH209 is too limited. It's almost as limited as shooting pellets. If all you own is newer than 10 year old 45 to 54 caliber inline 209 ignition rifles, then you might consider it. It's not good for anything else.

Pyrodex is the closest true alternative to blackpowder that has been created that doesn't have any major faults. I've had few issues with fouling or rusting with it, not enough to matter. Pyrodex plain works.

All that said, again my opinion, 777 is the only substitute that really makes sense anymore. It does everything Pyrodex does, and does it a little better. The only fault I can think of is the fouling is a little dry and crusty, so if you are a full bore conical shooter, then maybe Pyrodex is worth a try. 777 works with just about anything primer ignited, pistols, rifles, and shotguns. It can be loaded in cartridges. It again has no real rusting problems. It doesn't clump or turn sour quick like a lot of substitutes (Pyrodex doesn't either). None of the substitutes ignite as easy, or will last as long in storage as real blackpowder. That's just the way it is.

If both Pyrodex and 777 are on the shelf, try both, but if you only had time and money to try one, get 777.

[xdmalder]

Pyrodex is like the nice girl who is available for the prom. She's there, she's available and she will be an excellent companion. Sure, she's not the "Real Deal" but who really cares?
Reece
Of course that "nice girl" has an STD and will leave you scarred for life. But yeah, sure, you get to go to the prom!

[stubshaft]

I'm pretty sure that I have tried them all since holy black is so hard to get in my neck of the woods. Most of them have come and gone and the only ones that I feel confident in using is Triple & and Pyrodex.

[indian joe]

Of course that "nice girl" has an STD and will leave you scarred for life. But yeah, sure, you get to go to the prom!

ahhh mate you get the prize for today :awesome:

[OverMax]

I tried allot substitutes. I just never found one I liked. I got into that frame of mind "I had to keep looking for something better" when shooting subs. So I tried Black then stuck with Groex for my serious shooting. Came here and learned from a few fellows in the know how to make my own Black. Oh so much cheaper.
Shooting is the only hobby I truly enjoy. I typically target practice for fun and giggles thru-out the year with my Black. Only once a year do I load a charge 2-FF Gorex. "Deer season." One well placed ball powered with a measured of Gorex, I can count on >one deer for freezer. If I had to choose a sub? Accurate Black Horn 209 I would choose.

[Swineherd]

I like sending lead. I'll use whatever works. All tooled up to make holy black this spring, so hopefully I won't have to worry about getting it from a store. If T7 or pyrodex was the flavor of boom powder I could make at home, I'd do that and forget about black. Probably going to refine potassium nitrate from my own urine and the animal waste laden soil from the barn too.

Snobs are generally just the most ignorant of a given group attempting to substitute arrogance for knowledge and ability.

[longcruise]

If I can't get BP I shoot arrows. :bigsmyl2:

[Jungle Dave]

I generally stick to Graf's powder. It's cheaper but does great in all my hammer doubles. Think it's the old Elephant brand. I won't use Pyrodex for any reason, short of actually needing it in some extremely odd twilight-zone circumstance. I've seen and experienced the damage it inflicts upon thoroughly cleaned and inspected guns. Sometimes that demon does not strike until a full year later, depending on regional humidity conditions. I suppose it is ok if you are using that gun continually, but storage is another matter entirely. Those using the gun on a normal basis may seldom if ever notice.

[freakonaleash]

The only substitute i ever use for black powder is smokeless. Not in muzzleloaders of course

[Linstrum]

Well, there is no exact substitute for Holy Black. Pyrodex comes pretty close for what I've used it for. But it just isn't the same, it's just pretty close.

Back in about 2011, I was doing some experiments with a .54 caliber breech loader rifle. A 28 gauge shotgun is pretty close to .54 caliber, so, I was using 28 gauge shotgun shells. I was using somewhere around 70 grains black powder equivalent of Pyrodex RS to get a Lee R.E.A.L. .54 caliber projectile out the muzzle. The barrel was chambered in 28 gauge shotgun, so the barrel was technically a rifled shotgun slug barrel of legal length.

Perhaps some of you long-timers here may recall that I did some experiments with ammonpulver smokeless propellant about 18 years ago. Ammonpulver is not a black powder substitute, that stuff will disintegrate a black powder firearm like any other smokeless propellant. However, one property of ammonpulver is that its pressure can be controlled to some extent by highly diluting it with another very mild propellant. What I did was start mixing in small amounts of ammonpulver with the Pyrodex, while cutting back on the Pyrodex. The over-all load stayed about the same. I kept records of what I was doing, and watched the condition of the shot shells and what was happening at the target. I never got to the point of blown primers, but the plastic hulls began to melt. Recoil got to be pretty good, too. The gun I was using was a universal receiver that would take up to .50 BMG, so, my set-up was safe for what I was doing.

That's as far as I got, life got in my way and I had other more important things that had to be done. But I kinda sorta was using a substitute black powder substitute, but one that had a lot more power than I ever intended. What I wanted was something that burned a tad bit cleaner, since ammonpulver burns 100% clean with zero corrosion problems.

[M-Tecs]

Perhaps some of you long-timers here may recall that I did some experiments with ammonpulver smokeless propellant about 18 years ago. Ammonpulver is not a black powder substitute, that stuff will disintegrate a black powder firearm like any other smokeless propellant. However, one property of ammonpulver is that its pressure can be controlled to some extent by highly diluting it with another very mild propellant

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?259479-Ammonpulver-Project-Update#:~:text=For%20those%20of%20you%20who%20don% 27t%20know%20what,World%20War%20Two%20for%20canons %20and%20hand%20grenades.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?28648-As-anybody-ever-made/page2&highlight=ammonpulver