Looking at buying a .308 converted military rifle

[Murphinator]

I guess what I am looking at here is a wierd thing. Most people when buying a vintage milsurp want it in its original caliber. Personally I have many but I want a milsurp in .308. A local gun shop has 7 different rifles in .308 that are old milsurp rifles. They are (1) 1895 German Mausers, (1) 1895 Austrian Mauser, (1) 1895 Chilean Mauser, (1) 1896 Spanish Mauser, (1) L2A1 Jungle Carbine by Gibbs Rifle Company, (1) Spanish FR8 and (1) Century Arms FR8. Which of these is a good rifle to buy and which are sketchy ? I know the FR8 rifles have a strong following as well as the German Mausers and Spanish Mausers. Idk about the L2A1 and the Chilean Mauser. The FR8s are 9/10 condition, the Spanish 1896 is 9/10, the Austrian 1895 is 8.5/10, the German 1895 is 8/10, the L2A1 and Chilean 1895 are both 7/10.

[Milky Duck]

jungle carbine all day long.....but Im a K1W1 and its sort of a huge hunk of our heritage to love the SMLE in all its different guises.

[LAGS]

I just sold a Czech Mauser that I installed a stepped military barrel in .308
That shot great.
And I have a Spanish 1916 in 7.62x51.
It is good , but I mostly shoot cast Boolits in the small ring Mausers.
I have built lots of Mauser 98s into .308 Sporters and target rifles , but they used the tapered barrels.

[405grain]

The 1895 Austrian rifle was a Mannlicher, not a Mauser. The 1896 Mauser was Swedish, not Spanish (though this might be an 1893 Spanish Mauser that was made in 1896). I would be hesitant to build a 308 on a small ring Mauser action because the higher pressure of a 308 cartridge could result in bolt lug setback. Many of the small ring actions might have sufficient case hardening to handle the bolt thrust from a 308 cartridge, but there are also many that will have steel that's too soft for this cartridge. The FR8 was made for the CETME cartridge, which I've heard had different pressures than the 308 Winchester. Of the rifles you've listed the L2A1 might be your best choice. The others sound sketchy as full power 308's. Of those listed actions the 1895 Chilean is my favorite. It was made in Germany with good steel and case hardening. The Chilean actions have a safety lug behind the bolt handle that other small ring actions lack. They make good sporters in calibers like 7x57, 6.5x55, 7.65x53, 250 Savage, 300 Savage, and with some work 7.62x39. I personally wouldn't build an 1895 as a 308 because of the design strength of the action. Any large ring model 98 Mauser would be much stronger and better to build as a 308.

If you are intent on buying one of the rifles from that lot, then get the one with the best bore. Few things are more dissatisfying than putting effort into an inaccurate rifle.

[dverna]

For what you will pay for a surplus rifle you can buy a new rifle that is safe to shoot with a warranty. Ready for a scope, and it will likely be more accurate as well.

Did a quick search and found this:
https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms/hunting-rifles/mossberg-patriot-308-fde-threaded.html

Likely a lot more options at other retailers. Wait for Black Friday sales.

But for me a rifle is a tool. May not be what turns your crank.

[schutzen-jager]

can't go wrong with an FR8 - mine is very accurate with cast loads - only draw back is the short barrel making it very loud -

[Larry Gibson]

"I would be hesitant to build a 308 on a small ring Mauser action because the higher pressure of a 308 cartridge could result in bolt lug setback. Many of the small ring actions might have sufficient case hardening to handle the bolt thrust from a 308 cartridge, but there are also many that will have steel that's too soft for this cartridge. The FR8 was made for the CETME cartridge, which I've heard had different pressures than the 308 Winchester."

Several myths and conjecture in there. Suggest reading my post #10 in thread; https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?449493-Model93-Mauser-and-2400

[Bigslug]

Agree with post #4. The .308 is a bit hot for a lot of the older designs.

Other problems:

I bought a .308 converted '98 that doesn't feed worth a damn. Probably mostly from magazine geometry for a 57mm case rather than 51mm.

I also have an Indian Ishapore 2A1 7.62 NATO with a HUGE diameter chamber. Headspace is OK, but the cases get blown out so wide that they (A.) won't feed from the mag if neck-sized only, or (B.) would suffer drastically short life span if full-length sized repeatedly. Being curious that I might have had a fluke, I took my pin gauges to the local shop and measured another one. Exactly the same thing. Gonna sell that one off since, if I can't reload for it, it fails my original intent.

If you want a military-ish .308, get a Ruger Gunsite Scout or Hawkeye. It's basically a '98 / Pre-64 Model 70 inspired action, with none of the strength or function concerns of a conversion.

[Murphinator]

The 1895 German and Austrian rifles are both Mausers with German and Austrian Markings. The 1895 German rifle was made by Loewe Berlin and is a DWM rifle. The 1895 Austrian was made by Waffenfabrik Steyr in 1912. The Spanish 1896 Mauser is actually a 1916 Rifle.

[Murphinator]

The only thing that really draws me in om these rifles is that they are between $125 and $300. They are being sold from an Estate sale of a local gunsmith and competition shooter. His whole collection is being sold through the gunshop by his wife. My friend picked up a 7.62x54R 1895 Winchester for only $450 last week. Everything is being sold cheap because his family wants it all gone as fast as possible so they can move back to Italy. I dont think I will ever get a deal like that again.

[lancem]

I had one of the Gibbs jungle rifles, muzzle blast was terrible and recoil severe, it went on it's way quite quickly. Might be fun with mouse loads but factory loads no thanks.

[Bigslug]

The only thing that really draws me in om these rifles is that they are between $125 and $300. They are being sold from an Estate sale of a local gunsmith and competition shooter. His whole collection is being sold through the gunshop by his wife. My friend picked up a 7.62x54R 1895 Winchester for only $450 last week. Everything is being sold cheap because his family wants it all gone as fast as possible so they can move back to Italy. I dont think I will ever get a deal like that again.

Of what you list, the FR8 has the advantage of being the only one that was professionally engineered and built with the intention of chambering the NATO round (but at what pressure level, you'll need to research). Having had both of my .308 milsurp bolt guns turn out to be duds, you might say I'd be a little hesitant on those offerings.

[405grain]

Larry Gibson: I'd read your post about the pressures regarding the CETME cartridges when you first posted it. I'm going to stand by my opinion. I know that actions for the CETME were proof tested to higher pressures than we'd normally use in small rings, but there are other variables to consider. I've seen small ring Mauser receivers that have been twisted because someone tried unscrewing the barrel by passing a board or lever through the feed rails and ejection port, and twisting the receiver off the barrel (idiots!). I've seen small ring receivers where the forward receiver ring was egg shaped because the wrong type of action wrench was used. I've seen model 1916 Oviedo receivers with bolt lug set back, when they were still configured as 7x57 military rifles and had only used factory or military 7x57 ammo. Some small rings are made of quite soft steel.

I think there's just too much variability in metallurgy and quality of case hardening among the various types of small ring Mauser's to recommend them for conversion to 308 Winchester. The steels produced in the late 1800's had more impurities than those made following WW1. I think the actions designed and made for the CETME cartridge were produced after the modernization's in alloy steels were introduced. Without knowing the material strength, or if the action was abused or not, I cannot in good faith recommend converting a small ring action to such a high pressure cartridge. Yes, I know that many small ring rifles have been converted to this caliber without incident, but if there's a possibility of a case failure with an action that has limited gas handling features, I'm not willing to tell someone that it's a safe conversion. Small ring Mauser's are excellent in calibers that are within the design pressure of these actions.

[Larry Gibson]

405grain

The point to my post in this thread and the other thread was that the pressures of the original cartridges for those "soft" actions wasn't really all that different from the pressures of the original 7x57 milsurp ammunition made for those actions.

PS 1950 (Spanish) 154 FMJBT; 59,8 2442
PS 1951 (Spanish) 154 FMJBT; 60,5 2543
FAMME (Chile) 133 FMJBT; 55,3 2718
DWM 1918 (German) 172 Cupro RNFMJ; 54,8 2295

If you compare those measured psi's with the measured psi's of the milsurp 7.62 NATO ammunition, you won't see much practical difference. That was the point, not the strength of the actionss. However, I to have seen a few older actions that had some problems. I've also seen a large number of M1916s in 7.62 shot with thousands of rounds of M80 7.62 NATO w/o any detriment to the actions. I've actually seen a lot more commercial "modern" actions damaged and/or destroyed use of improper reloads than the older actions. I've also seen a few "hard" milsurp actions twist during barrel removal. Mostly because the proper action wrnech was not used. That's the same with "soft" Mausers. If a proper action wrench is used on the reciever ring the action cannot get twisted. The method you've seen, and I have seen is not the fault of the action but of the idiot using that method of a bourd or soemthing else through the ejection port/feed rails. Can't cure stupid.

BTW. I do not, and did not recommend rebarreling the small ring Mausers to Any cartridge with a SAAMI or CIP MAP over 60,000 psi. That is not to be confused with the oft reported "the SR actions were designed only for 45,000 psi" we often read. I have researched that figure and can't find any actual documentation tha Mauser designed the action "only for 45,000 psi". What I have found is that the mauser actions were designed, strength wise, to safely contain the psi of the cartridges (military) that were being made then. BTW; I have an FR8 that i've shot several thousand US M80 and M118 SB cartridges through. I also have an Oviedo M93/M1916 action that I've shot out 2 commercial .308W barrels on with M80, M118 and my own reloads.

Again, my post was simply to point out the myth that the actions in question were not made for the psi's of the 7.62 NATO cartridges and that the CETME cartridge is not a "low pressure" cartridge.

[Texas by God]

I would buy the 1895s if they were rebarreled with new sporter barrels. Which would be the case, I think?
I used to think that the only good small ring action was the Swede, but a friend's 1891Mauser with a Sako 22-250 barrel and my own 1916 Oviedo have straightened me out on that. I have another 1916 Oviedo with a caca 7mm barrel that will become something better someday.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[405grain]

Larry: I respect your opinions. My experiences have been with M93, M94 & M95 Mausers. I've never actually seen or handled an FR8. So, out of an abundance of ignorance I will choose to error on the side of caution. It isn't the first time I've been wrong - and it won't be the last. I have seen online where even the 1891 Mauser has at one time or another been converted to 308, but it's something I personally wouldn't recommend because the small ring actions both feed and shoot so much better with the Mauser cartridges.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry: I respect your opinions. My experiences have been with M93, M94 & M95 Mausers. I've never actually seen or handled an FR8. So, out of an abundance of ignorance I will choose to error on the side of caution. It isn't the first time I've been wrong - and it won't be the last. I have seen online where even the 1891 Mauser has at one time or another been converted to 308, but it's something I personally wouldn't recommend because the small ring actions both feed and shoot so much better with the Mauser cartridges.

Absolutely no problem with erroring on the side of caution. I've learned the hard way to do that. In past threads concerning rebarreling or rechambering on Mauser actions I have almost always, if not always, suggested cartridges with the Mauser taper for proper feeding. As to shooting, if you're referring to accuracy capability, all else being equal those two cartridges are every bit as accurate as their "modern" counterparts because the actions will have new barrels that can be chambered with standard 30-06 or 35 Whelen reamers. That includes the M91. It also led me down the path to developing the 30x57 and the 35x57 for use in Mauser actions. Both have the same capacity as the .308W and the .358W. However, with no factory ammunition in those two easily formed cartridges using standard readily available cases in standard slightly shortened regular dies the psi they're loaded to is left up to the owner. It is the same with standard higher pressure cartridges in those actions. If reloading, the pressure level can be adjusted down to one's likes regardless of the chambering.

[racepres]

Absolutely no problem with erroring on the side of caution. I've learned the hard way to do that. In past threads concerning rebarreling or rechambering on Mauser actions I have almost always, if not always, suggested cartridges with the Mauser taper for proper feeding. As to shooting, if you're referring to accuracy capability, all else being equal those two cartridges are every bit as accurate as their "modern" counterparts because the actions will have new barrels that can be chambered with standard 30-06 or 35 Whelen reamers. That includes the M91. It also led me down the path to developing the 30x57 and the 35x57 for use in Mauser actions. Both have the same capacity as the .308W and the .358W. However, with no factory ammunition in those two easily formed cartridges using standard readily available cases in standard slightly shortened regular dies the psi they're loaded to is left up to the owner. It is the same with standard higher pressure cartridges in those actions. If reloading, the pressure level can be adjusted down to one's likes regardless of the chambering.

The Feeding Issue is real.. I have an M98 that refuses to feed any but X57..and... Hard to Believe, "Savage" length Ctgs.

I ain't a Bit afraid of the 1916 308 conversion... tho my sporterized Small Ring is in 300 Savage.
I would throw my hat in the Ring for a Yugo Intermediate action for 308... Usually fairly lightly used...If Any..and Plenty Strong. (had one in 284 Win. that was a Real Hoot)
I still have a M48 in 308 with a Boyds Stock, Leopold Scope, Mount, and Rings.. Davis May did that Bolt.
I love it...
Any Intermediates out there???? I will do Another....Ready Made for 308 class ctgs...

[303Guy]

jungle carbine all day long.....but Im a K1W1 and its sort of a huge hunk of our heritage to love the SMLE in all its different guises.

Yup, Lee Enfields are in our blood. I might have one or two .... [smilie=1:

I'm not so sure about the recoil of that Jungle Carbine with a 308 chambering though. I would imagine though, that 308 Winchester sporting ammo is not recommended for the No4 action.

[atr]

I had one of the Gibbs jungle rifles, muzzle blast was terrible and recoil severe,,,

my experience too with the jungle rifle.
best
atr

[Rapier]

A conversion is always a conversion unless by a well known smith and is signed by them. 99% of the time you are better off with a commercial custom rather than a military conversion of questionable strength and any small ring is of questionable strength just because it is a small ring.
It really does not make any difference to me what anyone tested one to, they can buy it. As the Indian said, "you drink it."

[kaiser]

You might check with CMP; they had M1 Garands for sale that were converted to .308Win with new stocks and barrels. They use the same clips as the 30/06 (original) models and are very accurate!

[oconeedan]

Another vote for the FR8. It is a large ring Mauser.
I have one, and it has a beautiful bore, and is accurate. Short yes, but it makes a great short range hunting rifle. I have taken several deer and hogs with mine.
And...it shoots cast bullets great.
A bonus for me, the rotating peep makes it easier to shoot the short rifle accurately. I drilled out one slightly for hunting, as my eyes are getting old and need more light.
I do believe these FR8 hold value well too.
The FR7 is less common, and is small ring Mauser I believe.

[schutzen-jager]

iic - the FR7 is not built on the 98 Mauser action but the earlier + weaker 1895 action - my FR8 is also extremely accurate with cast bullets -

[waksupi]

With cast bullet pressures, I wouldn't be overly concerned about any of them.

What I would want is an inspection period on any rechambered rifle, as the .308 cartridge is the most finicky to get to cycle properly.

[Rapidrob]

There are many converted rifle to 7.62x51 NATO out there that are safe and outstanding shooters. The Chilean Mausers, depending on the model you buy, May have 1903 Springfield two groove barrels that shoot cast bullets like a pro. My rifle is dead on at 800 yards with M-80 Ball ammo.
The Indian Enfields are very well made and too are great shooters. I've won our matches at 500 meters with mine several times.
The converted " Navy " M-1s are great shooters as well and cycle the cast loads with a 150 plus grain bullet with no issues. ( I like the 175 grain bullet myself )
I built a M-114 rifle just for fun ( M-1A receiver/bolt, portion of the stock and M1 Garand parts for the rest of the rifle ) and it will shoot anything loaded for it.
Stay away from the converted FN-49 rifles. They do not like the higher power 7.62x51 pressures and can fail when fired.( locking block )

[beemer]

I was given a 1909 Argentine Mauser that had been sporterized complete with a 60's style Herter's stock and no bolt. I bought a Norwegian surplus barrel in 7.62 X 51 and a 98 bolt and put it all together, it feeds perfectly. Does the 7.65 Mauser have a different taper than the other Mausers?

[Larry Gibson]

I was given a 1909 Argentine Mauser that had been sporterized complete with a 60's style Herter's stock and no bolt. I bought a Norwegian surplus barrel in 7.62 X 51 and a 98 bolt and put it all together, it feeds perfectly. Does the 7.65 Mauser have a different taper than the other Mausers?

Yes, the 7.65 has a bit more taper than the .308W but not as much as the 7x57 or the 6.5 Swede. Both my DWM and FMAP M1909 Argentine actions feed .308Ws perfectly. The feed rails of those release the cartridge rims sooner than many M98s, especially the shorter K98 actions, that were chambered in 7x57 and 8x57. The SR Mauser actions with staggered magazines had even more tapered cartridges being mostly chambered in 6.5 and 7mm and thus the feed rails and magazines had more taper.

[303Guy]

I watched an interesting video yesterday. These guys had chambered a No.4 to 300 Winchester magnum.

Let that sink in for a moment.

It did eventually fail after firing five oiled cartridges. But, it had survived four proofings, one of which was in 7.62 Nato plus thousands of 7.62 rounds, since it was a target rifle. Oiled cartridges apparently double the bolt face thrust. It did have a pre-existing crack in the lower locking lug, possibly from the 7.62 proofing - who knows.

So the history of the rifle is that it was FTR'ed then fitted with a 303 Brit chambering with a 308 barrel then refitted with a 7.62 NATO target barrel which these guys then rechambered into 300 Win Mag for the destruction test. So it had fired many thousands of rounds and as I mentioned, it was proofed at each rebarreling but not the 300 Win Mag as that was a destruction test anyway. Ironically, it would have passed 300 Win Mag proofing!

I still wouldn't run a No4 on 308 Winchester though.

[Larry Gibson]

Was at the range the other day to chronograph some 60 gr V Max in my recently rebuilt M700V in 223 Rem. Took along my modified Spanish FR8 to plink with while letting the M700V cool between test strings.

The ammo I had loaded for the FR8 is mixed 7.62 that i loaded 12-14 years ago. I had a 5 gal bucket of "throw away" cases that had been fired 4-6 times in M14/M1As. It had all been previously sized with a Bonanza FL BR sizer, so they were due to have incipient case head separation in the next reloading/firing or two. Thus, they were "throw aways". Back then i had recently got the RCBS X die and had thoroughly tested it and found i could get 20 +/- firings per case using that X die. I sorted through the bucket of throw aways and came up with 1500+ cases to size with the X die for use in the FR8. I also had traded for about 10,000 pulled 7.62x39 FMJs and HPs. One large batch (a couple coffee cans) of those plated soft steel jacketed bullets shot horribly in .31 cal barrels but shot 2 -3 moa out of .30 cal barrels. I also had a couple jugs of AAs Data 2200 power. I worked up a load pushing the 120 gr AK HP bullets to 2850 fps out of the FR8. Thus was the 1500+ throw away cases loaded. In the intervening years i've shot up several hundred w/o a single case head speration or even the appearance of one. I've even saved the cases to reload again with that load.

Any ways I had modified the FR8 years ago to a "scout" rifle. I had replaced the CETME front sight and flash hider with an M14 Flash hider/front sight, removed the rear sight, D&T and installed a Lyman receiver sight. Forged the bolt handle and modified the hand guard to use an SA scout mount on the barrel. I recently removed the scout mount and scope and replaced the hand guard as I had cataract surgery and can see a front sight again! At the range the other day knowing I had zeroed the sights for that ammo years ago when I loaded it i just moved the receiver sight up 3 moa as I was shooting Ram silhouette swinger at the 300 yard line. I was shooting from a bench with just my elbows on the bench. Loaded 5 rounds and had 5 hits. Loaded another 5 rounds and had another 5 hits. A couple guys came down to watch and were amazed such a rifle could shoot that well with such ammo....and it wasn't even chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor........:roll:

307236

[tejano]

Good story Larry!

[john.k]

I bought one of the Spanish 308 converted 93 Mauser carbines when they were $100 in as new condition.....it was a great little gun,however the 308 case did not work well from the 7x57 magazine .....I think maybe 3 rounds would feed ,maybe only two........To correct the magazine was a major work......you just have to look at the Indian 308s.......new shaped floorplate and magazine to suit the fatter case ........incidentally,the 303 and 7.65 cases have the same water capacity as 308,so in a strong action,308 loads can safely be used in either.