Remington Rolling Block

[Battis]

I looked at a M1867 Rolling Block at a gun show today. The seller said that he had just bought it at the same gun show and didn't know much about it. He said that he was told it was 45-70 caliber. He had a bunch of reloaded ammo and some fired cases for it that were marked 50 Alaskan. It was hard to research it online on my phone at the gun show, but the markings on the barrel indicated that it was from Norway. Later at home I found a reference to some that were actually made (or converted) to 45-70 (or something almost 45-70).
He told me (why, I don't know) that he paid $225 for it at this gun show and he was selling it for $475. It was tempting, but not knowing exactly what caliber it was made me walk away.
The rifle was in good shape and didn't look like it had ever been blued. It was center fire and didn't look like it had been converted from rimfire.
Now that I'm able to research it looks like there's alot of things to look for to ID the gun.
Any suggestions or ideas on the price?

[indian joe]

I looked at a M1867 Rolling Block at a gun show today. The seller said that he had just bought it at the same gun show and didn't know much about it. He said that he was told it was 45-70 caliber. He had a bunch of reloaded ammo and some fired cases for it that were marked 50 Alaskan. It was hard to research it online on my phone at the gun show, but the markings on the barrel indicated that it was from Norway. Later at home I found a reference to some that were actually made (or converted) to 45-70 (or something almost 45-70).
He told me (why, I don't know) that he paid $225 for it at this gun show and he was selling it for $475. It was tempting, but not knowing exactly what caliber it was made me walk away.
The rifle was in good shape and didn't look like it had ever been blued. It was center fire and didn't look like it had been converted from rimfire.
Now that I'm able to research it looks like there's alot of things to look for to ID the gun.
Any suggestions or ideas on the price?

no idea on the gun but you proly looked at a couple hundred bucks in ammo and brass

[Battis]

I found this online:
The Norwegian and Swedish armies used a M1867 RB chambered in 12.17×44mm RF rimfire.
The 12.17x44mmR was the centerfire version of the 12.17x44mmRF (rimfire).
"Centerfire 12.17×44mmR cases are available, but a more cost-effective way to acquire cases is to cut .50 Alaskan cases down to 44mm total length."
I'm working my abacus to compare this round to 45-70.
I'm thinking that the RB was not 45-70.

Abacus says that 12.17MM= 0.47913 inches. Close.

[ascast]

There is one out there that is a bit bigger than American 45-70. 45-70 will chamber and fire, but the bullet/bore/groove are bigger the 458. Also it is a slow twist ,like 1 in 36 IIRC. 45-70 brass can be used.
I bought one at an antique shop some years ago. I have not test driven it. I'll have to dig it out. I think I paid about $150. I would think $400-to 500 would be about right. That might be danish.

[indian joe]

I found this online:
The Norwegian and Swedish armies used a M1867 RB chambered in 12.17×44mm RF rimfire.
The 12.17x44mmR was the centerfire version of the 12.17x44mmRF (rimfire).
"Centerfire 12.17×44mmR cases are available, but a more cost-effective way to acquire cases is to cut .50 Alaskan cases down to 44mm total length."
I'm working my abacus to compare this round to 45-70.
I'm thinking that the RB was not 45-70.

Abacus says that 12.17MM= 0.47913 inches. Close.

50 alaskan is fatter in the body than 45/70 --rim size same (or same enough to work)

12.17 computes to .479 - rumour has it many original 450/577 martini enfields were similar size. the rounds were paper patched

CBE makes GG molds in that range I believe

[Battis]

Stamped on the barrel was a name, address, or whatever. It was pretty faded and I looked at it from every angle, but it made no sense. Online, I found that it was "Kongsberg Våpenfabrik Norway". Apparently (according to Wikipedia), the first 5000 rifles delivered to the Norwegian Army were manufactured by Husqvarna Vapenfabrik in Sweden in 1871-72.
It was in really good shape. If the seller threw in the loaded and fired .50 Alaskan cases, about 20, it might be worth it. Starline sells the new cases for about $1.18 each - not bad. The fired .50 Alaskan cases wouldn't have to be sized if they were fired from that rifle. For what it's worth, I have 45-70 dies and brass.
Tempting. I wish I saw the rifle at the other dealer's table for $225 before this seller bought it.

[BP Dave]

The 12.17mm round is much closer to .50-70 than to .45-70. I believe the bullet is about .504 in diameter vs. .458 for a .45-70. You will probably want to make sure you know what you have before you start shooting it.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My Swedish rolling block 12.17x44R has a bore 492/508" and I load 450gn boolits sized 0.510" over 62gn Swiss No.2. Cases are formed from 348 Winchester brass. Pic shows a comparison of the round(LHS) and 50/70 (RHS)

https://i.imgur.com/AFxNuppl.jpg
'

[indian joe]

My Swedish rolling block 12.17x44R has a bore 492/508" and I load 450gn boolits sized 0.510" over 62gn Swiss No.2. Cases are formed from 348 Winchester brass. Pic shows a comparison of the round(LHS) and 50/70 (RHS)

https://i.imgur.com/AFxNuppl.jpg
'

I wonder where they got the 12.17 tag from? the metric converter says .479 and its obviously bigger than that.

[RustyReel]

I use shortened 50 Alaskan in one of my 12.7x44 Swedish Rolling Block. Cast boolits are sized .510. I do have a Danish roller that will shoot a 45/70. I sized my boolits .460 for this. Haven't done much with the Dane but the Swedes are pretty good shooters.

I would say if the 50 AK brass chambers it is not a .45/70.

I use 50/70 dies on the 12.7 and 45/70 dies (of course) with the Dane.

$225 was a good deal, $400 plus seems to the be current going rate.

Dutchman or somthing like that, posts on here and has done a lot of work with these rollers, as have others. Lots of info out there. Good luck!

[Battis]

I'm calling this one The One That Got Away. I didn't go back to the gun show and I have no way to contact the seller. But I'll be looking for another.
I have a Remington RB in 7x57 Mauser that's been quiet for awhile. I'll have to bring it back out.

[Wayne Smith]

Go to Simpsons.com and look around.

[Castaway]

Wayne, bad link

[No_1]

https://simpsonltd.com/firearm-imports/

[salpal48]

That is a Very easy Loading cartridge . Purchased several from Simpson when they brought them in the country years ago. Still have them on their site . Still reasonable. 50 Alaskan work well . 50/70 bullet will do. Good shooting

[Yellowhouse]

I imagine 12.17 is the bore diameter. Europeans tend to measure their rifles that way....Americans began using groove diameter about 1873 or so .

[muskeg13]

I have both Danish and Swedish M1867 rifles. The Danish M1867 is in 11.7x51MM and the Swede is 12.7x44 (aka 12.11x44 and 12.17x44, all the same cartridge). Norwegian M1867 were in the same caliber as the Swedish versions. All the Scandinavian M1867 are essentially the same basic Remington #1 pattern except for the calibers and minor variation differences. For example, the hammer and breechblock pins on the Danish rifle are held in place by a button (bar) spanning the two with a centrally located single screw, while the Norwegian and Swedish rifles use individual locking screws on both pins and do away with the button/bar.

All three countries began by procuring a small number of rifles produced by Remington in the US in the rimfire version of their countries' caliber, and eventually produced the bulk of their rifles in their own respective national arsenals. All three countries also eventually converted some or all of the M1867s in their inventories to a centerfire version of their rimmed cartridge, and the Danes even later to the relatively powerful 8x58R. The Danes were the first to convert to centerfire and built or retrofitted all their rifle's breechblocks to fire either centerfire or rimfire ammunition. The Swedish military stuck with rimfire rifles, but rifles produced for their forest service other armed auxiliaries and later for the civilian market were centerfire. Sweden produced sporting rolling block rifles and shotguns for many decades.

As for shooting these M1867 rifles today in the centerfire versions of their military calibers, 11.7x51R and 12ishx44R, they are VERY close in dimensions to the 45-70 and 50-70 respectively, but the Scandinavian and American rounds are not interchangeable.

My M1867 Dane will chamber and fire blackpowder 45-70 loads, but 45-70 cases provide a very loose fit and do not obturate to seal the chamber. Case heads swell a bit and there is gas leakage. Buffalo Arms provides reworked correctly dimensioned cartridge cases. I've had best results using the Lee 459-405-HB hollow base round nose cast very soft using 45-70 blackpowder or pyrodex loads. https://www.buffaloarms.com/11-7x51r-remington-danish-case-11-7x51r.html

My Swedish M1867 was/is a rimfire version, but I can swap out the Danish M1867 breechblock set for centerfire to shoot it. 50-70 brass will almost chamber, but the breechblock won't quite close. The 50-70 case head is just a little too wide. You can rework 50-70 brass or use reformed/blown out .348 Winchester brass. Buffalo Arms also has ready-made reworked brass that works fine. This rifle has some of the deepest lands/grooves I've seen. The Lyman 515-141 cast with soft lead, loaded unsized with 50-70 blackpowder loads works fine.
https://www.buffaloarms.com/12-7x44r-norwegian-cases-12-7x44r.html

[Dutchman]

Dutchman or somthing like that, posts on here and has done a lot of work with these rollers, as have others. Lots of info out there. Good luck!

Lots of information and mis-information gets tossed around about the Swedish m/1867 rolling blocks. You need to separate the Norwegian RB from Swedish RB. The American market has been awash in Swedish rolling blocks since 1999 so they're the most available. Most of the Swedish will have a crown over C indicating Carl Gustaf rifle factory and some will have H for Husqvarna.

The mis-information concerning the Swedish RB is the chamber is the same as .50-70 Gov't. Its not the same. The U.S. .50-70 Gov't is larger and longer. The problems begin with rifles that were imported into the U.S. that have had a .50-70 reamer job done to them in Sweden. The best way to tell is by inspecting the rim and chamber for fresh cut steel. Old original Swedish chambers will show old original steel finish, darker and more usage marks. A freshly cut chamber will show shiny metal and will easily chamber a .50-70 shell. Overall a Swedish rifle re-chambered to .50-70 will be much easier to handload for and no difference in shooting.

Swedish m/1867 RB: bore and groove measurements seem to vary quite a bit. Using pin gauge mine shows .477" land diameter and .500" groove. I've shot .512" bullets of 350 and 450 grain. Original Swedish loading was 347 grain. My opinion is the 450 grain are too heavy through they shoot just fine, just slower. I've since standardized to .510". I handload 12,7x44R using reformed .348 Winchester cases. Case length can vary so don't worry if you need to shorten the case for easier closing of the breechblock. There should be no resistance in closing the breechblock.

Can't offer any advise on the Norwegian rolling block as I've never owned one.

Dutch

[17nut]

I wonder where they got the 12.17 tag from? the metric converter says .479 and its obviously bigger than that.

Why is the old cap and ball 44. revolvers firing a 45- bullet?
Simply because they stated the bore diameter of the barrel not the rifled diameter.
Thus a 12.17mm bore rifle shoots a 12.7mm bullet.

Why is a .300WM, a .300WSM or a .300RUM shooting a .308 bullet and so forth.
We live it today.