Muzzle leading with .303

[redbullitt]

Hey guys

Ive got a 1917 303 Enfield that is being more than a bit difficult to cast for. This is the first one that really is kicking my butt lol.

IF i use a low charge of unique, say 11 to 11.5 grains, accuracy is okay out to 100 yards with a plain base noe 213g bullet pretty much any way i flavor it. Pb, pb check, gator check, any lube etc. Pretty smooth sailing and sub 4 inch groups at 100 yards without trouble and no leading.

Now where things get annoying lol... using a little more oomph I start to get sporadic but notable leading at the muzzle and poor groups, and not seeing a lube star at the muzzle. Imr4227, 5744, and imr 4350 have been used. Ive shot a handful of 1 inch 5 ahot groups at about 125 yards and some clover leafs at 50 yards with the noe 213g .316 GC bullet and 5744 at 21g of powder... but its not consistent. Often it leads and shoots poorly.

A couple thoughts that may help.

same alloy gets used in 308 and 3030 up to 2000fps, works well. Mostly cww, sprinkled with a little tin and range scrap.

Not seeing the lube star at muzzle stands out to me on the long barrel. Using eds red. Also have alox and white label bac and 2500 now that I didn't before. Powder coat seems to help but not fix it 100 pct.

I am having to seat bullets lower in the neck than id like to chamber proper, not sure how secure the GC is. The gc also seem leas secure on the shank than im used to seeing. Some spin etc.

Loaded rounds pulled bullet still measures .316

Have shot good groups with .314 .315 .316 sized bullets, still sporadic lead at muzzle. Throat can take about a .318ish max.

Im kinda leaning towards lube issue and or GC issue... any help is appreciated.

[BLAHUT]

I would guess lube? GC should stop that ?? Could try cutting back on speed ? Try harder lead mix ? I push a 500+ pure lead out of a 30" tube at about 1200 without leading? Took a while to get the correct lube? Now all works great.

[Dusty Bannister]

Not seeing the lube star at muzzle stands out to me on the long barrel. Using eds red.

Am I understanding correctly that you are using Ed's Red as a bullet lubricant?

[LST-1185]

I would say that your alloy might be to soft. I mix my alloy and water quench drop from the mold. This produces a hardness between 24 to 27 bhn.

[Char-Gar]

Ed's Red is not a bullet lubricant. I suspect that is a mistake. At any rate, I would start with a change of bullet lube. That is where to start when there is leading at the muzzle.

[dondiego]

Probably meant Ben's Red.

[stubshaft]

Just needs more lube.

[waksupi]

Powder coating or Felix Lube would solve the problem.

[redbullitt]

Oops on the lube haha. Made a bunch forever ago, still using the same batch. Maybe it was called bens... cant remember lol.

I will try a some more of the white label 2500 asap and see what happens. I shot 6 today, .316 diameter, 21g 5744, gator gc, white label 2500. Did not see notable leading as I was! Group was a 5 inch vertical string at 110 yards.

The gas checks did not stop the leading initially, which was a surprise. I was expecting the 21g of 5744, pretty much lymans starting load to be mild enough.

[sigep1764]

WLL Carnauba Blue has worked for me from 380/9mm to 223/270/30-30. If the throat will take .318, I would size to that or .317 and see what happens

[Dusty Bannister]

"I shot 6 today, .316 diameter, 21g 5744, gator gc, white label 2500. Did not see notable leading as I was! Group was a 5 inch vertical string at 110 yards."


Did you happen to check to see if there was soot deposited on the case neck and shoulder after these shots were fired? That would indicate lack of sufficient pressure to expand the case and seal in the chamber. That could lead to the vertical stringing.

[redbullitt]

Thank you guys for all the suggestions and help!

Dusty supplied some excellent info via pm that im going to use today if the weather allows.

Cases when fired look nice and clean. I think they are sealing up well. The 5 inch vertical line was exciting to me. All the other poor groups were very spread out, this session had maybe 1 inch of horizontal.
I do not have velocity numbers, but may be able to do that if my buddy brings his radar chronograph. Rifle barrel has been cleaned well initially, looks great really and feels pretty consistent when running a patch. Slugged barrel was very hard to read, but i THINK i saw .314ish.

Id love to run. 317 or .318, but will have to get another noe bushing to do it. That may be the next step if all else fails. Could maybe try some as cast from the mold as a test. Also can add more cww to the mix, but i figured this alloy would be okay since it goes north of 2kfps accurately in 308 and 3030 without trouble, albeit in shorter modern barrels.

I have some cartridges loaded up to try today.
All bullets are .316, pulled to verify no swaging, no crimp, just bell removed from case. All are neck sized 3/4 of neck, .002 tension. Oal is just kissing the lands. Charges of 5744 at 21 22 23 grains. We have wll2500, pc, and pc with wll2500 lube too just to be sure lol.

I also noted the powdercoated rounds had fantastic gas check fitment. Maybe the shank is a little too thin on the mold for gator or hornady.

[Dusty Bannister]

When changing lubes without cleaning and reconditioning the barrel, you probably will have patterns and not groups. How does the rifle perform with jacketed bullets?

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Vertical stringing usually means a powder charge adjustment, I would increase powder charge a grain at a time until the vertical stringing stops. The incremental/ladder method of load development comes into play here. Finding that barrel node where the bullets are leaving the barrel when the barrel vibration stops, top or bottom of the barrel vibration is where you will find it. There is usually a range of powder charges that group together, I pick the middle of that range, makes powder measuring less critical.

[45workhorse]

Just shot mine today. Basically ww,
Lyman mold 314299 (I think)
Smokes clear powder,
sized at .314,
24 grain IMR 4198. (my sweet spot)
Gator gas check.
Was hitting a 4 inch steel plate at 100 yards with peep sight, surprised I could see it.

It worked for me, sounds like you have just about got it figured out. Few more adjustments and you should have it dialed in.