45-70 hunting load, Accurate 46-405V

[JTodd]

Hi guys, Im hoping to work out a deer/hog/black bear all purpose 45-70 hunting load for my Marlin 1895.

The barrel slugs 0.458. I picked up a 46-405V mold from Tom at accurate, and 459 and 460 dies are on the way from Lathesmith. I think what I want is a fairly soft bullet that may be willing to expand a bit in the target, and speeds in the 1400-1500fps range. Im hoping this will be a deadly load on medium game that wont be so hard on my shoulder or rifle. Am I headed in the right direction here?

Between wheel weights and range scrap (or some mix) or possibly wheel weights with 2%tin, which alloy would you guys pick? I have had good luck at these pressures and MV range with air cooled pure WW metal, but would be curious about using something even softer for expansion.

Is Felix Lube a good starting point for a load like this? Its all I use in pistols from 45 auto up through full snort 357 loads. My rifle experience is very limited.


I think I have a pretty good handle on popular powder choices, but Id be happy to hear about any pet loads too..

I do have a reloader 7/RCBS 405 4570 load that clocks in around 1800 on the chronograph. Those bullets are water quenched pure wheel weights, and the load is accurate with 3 shots in a 1-1/4 @ 100 yards through the skinner sights off the bench. The recoil from this load is on the edge of what Id really like to "experience", but Id be happy to shoot them one or two at a time for hunting.

Thanks for any advice - John.

[BLAHUT]

Hi guys, Im hoping to work out a deer/hog/black bear all purpose 45-70 hunting load for my Marlin 1895.

The barrel slugs 0.458. I picked up a 46-405V mold from Tom at accurate, and 459 and 460 dies are on the way from Lathesmith. I think what I want is a fairly soft bullet that may be willing to expand a bit in the target, and speeds in the 1400-1500fps range. Im hoping this will be a deadly load on medium game that wont be so hard on my shoulder or rifle. Am I headed in the right direction here?

Between wheel weights and range scrap (or some mix) or possibly wheel weights with 2%tin, which alloy would you guys pick? I have had good luck at these pressures and MV range with air cooled pure WW metal, but would be curious about using something even softer for expansion.

Is Felix Lube a good starting point for a load like this? Its all I use in pistols from 45 auto up through full snort 357 loads. My rifle experience is very limited.


I think I have a pretty good handle on popular powder choices, but Id be happy to hear about any pet loads too..

I do have a reloader 7/RCBS 405 4570 load that clocks in around 1800 on the chronograph. Those bullets are water quenched pure wheel weights, and the load is accurate with 3 shots in a 1-1/4 @ 100 yards through the skinner sights off the bench. The recoil from this load is on the edge of what Id really like to "experience", but Id be happy to shoot them one or two at a time for hunting.

Thanks for any advice - John.

I shoot a lee 515 FN in pure lead in my guide gun, for bears, 27grs of 5744, very accurate, no problem having 5 touching at 100 yds, does kick some on both ends. I shoot a lee 500+ 3R in pure lead with 42 grs of blackhorn209 at about 1200 fps from my roller, very accurate out to and beyond 1000yds. You will need to find what your gun likes and a lube your gun likes? Both of these guns like them a little on the fat side .460-.461 your target will lead you to the most accurate, Just keep matriculas records.

[Castaway]

JTodd, any of the combinations you mentioned certainly would be good enough. Wheelweights, range scrap, 2% tin to either or starting from scratch with a 1:16 or 1:20. At the velocity you’re shooting for, I think you’re worrying too much about minutiae. As we know, shot placement is the key, although as the caliber goes up, so does the size of allowable error. Depending on your 1895, you may have a micro-groove version. Micro-groove barrels can shoot cast quite accurately, just add an extra 0.002” to your bullet diameter. Expansion wont hurt, but a 0.458” - 0.460” diameter bullet is already bigger than a 30 caliber can ever hope to expand to and isn’t necessary. If your rifle feeds a bullet with a generous meplat, any accurate combination will do the job.

[405grain]

306636 I saw this meme awhile ago. Hope it helps with matching cartridge to game. I've been loading the rcbs 405 grain slug over 37 grains of Reloader #7 for nearly 40 years, and using it for everything from jackrabbits to deer.

[ChristopherO]

The Accurate mold I use for the 1895 45/70 is also a wide flat point with gas check. The alloy is plain range scrape sized at .460". It hits with authority at the 1,700 fps muzzle velocity, but I'm confident a few hundred fps less wouldn't be anything to sneeze at.

This Marlin is about 8 years young, never had a copper clad bullet fired through the bore except for the gas checks. On occasion with a tight oiled patch small flecks of lead may show on the cloth, but a few passes and all is gone. After quite a number boollits fired down range it appears the bore is slicked up very well. Haven't noticed any flecks in quite a while.

[longcruise]

A couple years ago I began powder coating for the 45-70 and have never looked back. Mostly 5744 but am looking for an opportunity to try Shooters World buffalo. My "do-all" is a Lee 405 pc'd and sized to 460. No gc, runni g any where from 1200 to 1600. It doesn't take much to get there. Usually AC WW but im going to try some 1:30 & 1:20 tin. Worked on hogs but that's been the only game with it for me.

[ChristopherO]

I should have mentioned, White Lable Lube 2500+ has given the best accuracy for the 1895CB I shoot them out of. Each gun can be different, though.

[JTodd]

Wow guys! Thanks for all of the advice. I have the rifle loaded with the RCBS 405 load, hopefully I can sit in the woods over the north Ga cold snap this weekend.

BLAHUT - Thanks! Black bears or brown? How does the pure lead act in Game? What kind of lube do you like for these loads?

Castaway- thanks for the alloy advice, and you are probably correct about the minutiae advice as well. Ill probably start with air cooled pure wheel weights and see if they will fill out and make my velocity goals without issues. I do have ballard rifling in my 1985.

405grain- I may or may not have read all of the categories before seeing the cartridge labels. Thanks for the laugh

ChristopherO- excellent information. Wjat have you taken with this load? How would you describe the wound channel? My boolit will he plain based so I may not push it that fast. Thanks for the lube advice! Felix lube has served me well but Im certainly open to change.

Longcruise - Thanks! Ive never gotten into powder coat. Maybe down the road! What did the wound channels look like in your pigs? Your load sounds very similar to what I would like to try.

Ill keep you guys postes if Im successful with the rcbs bullet, and as I get the chance to cast and develop loads with the new accurate bullet. Thanks again!

[Wayne Smith]

If you have any mix ww and pure 50%. That gives you close to 20/1 which was the original Remington mix. Sharps loaded with a 16/1 mix. Those boolits would penetrate two bison side by side, so will do anything you need. Pure ww is a touch hard if you expect any expansion, but as noted, that is by no means necessary.

[BLAHUT]

Wow guys! Thanks for all of the advice. I have the rifle loaded with the RCBS 405 load, hopefully I can sit in the woods over the north Ga cold snap this weekend.

BLAHUT - Thanks! Black bears or brown? How does the pure lead act in Game? What kind of lube do you like for these loads?

Castaway- thanks for the alloy advice, and you are probably correct about the minutiae advice as well. Ill probably start with air cooled pure wheel weights and see if they will fill out and make my velocity goals without issues. I do have ballard rifling in my 1985.

405grain- I may or may not have read all of the categories before seeing the cartridge labels. Thanks for the laugh

ChristopherO- excellent information. Wjat have you taken with this load? How would you describe the wound channel? My boolit will he plain based so I may not push it that fast. Thanks for the lube advice! Felix lube has served me well but Im certainly open to change.

Longcruise - Thanks! Ive never gotten into powder coat. Maybe down the road! What did the wound channels look like in your pigs? Your load sounds very similar to what I would like to try.

Ill keep you guys postes if Im successful with the rcbs bullet, and as I get the chance to cast and develop loads with the new accurate bullet. Thanks again!

With a shoulder hit in a big pig with a 45/70, 500 gr+ FN, 1200fps, will take a pig off its feet and move it sideways a bunch.

[longcruise]

Longcruise - Thanks! Ive never gotten into powder coat. Maybe down the road! What did the wound channels look like in your pigs? Your load sounds very similar to what I would like to try.

Looked good. Not explosive but a nice big clean hole all the way through.

[ChristopherO]

A number of deer have succumbed to these boollits. The wound channels are through and through without looking like a bomb explosion that high velocity rounds can produce. Sometimes they topple right over while other times they run a bit before the fall. Nearly the same as when we were constrained to shotgun slugs. But the rifle is much more enjoyable to carry.

[Static line]

That 46-405V is a nice bullet with a WFN. You don't even need any expansion. I often use my WFN designs from Tom with a 50/50 mix of COWW and Pure and then just air cool them. I fill the grooves with BAC lube and go hunting.

[ammohead]

A .459 405gr WFN style won't need to expand to be effective, but at 1500 fps or less there is no need to cast the bullet harder than 8-10 bhn. Expansion surely wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Ramjet-SS]

Some things depend on the nose shape if you have a wide flat nose say .80 of caliber expansion is not really needed. The tissue disruption is pretty darn impressive with that big meplat. That said one of the best boolits in a 45-70 is the old Gould designed HP in which case 12 BNH is a good compromise of expansion and performance. What’s so great about the 45/70 is it’s ability to be so darn versatile in a modern weapon.

[Sgt H]

I will second the Lyman/Gould 457122 HP as likely the best hunting boolit for the 45-70 if the quarry is deer. My most used load is 30 grains of AA5744 with this boolit, however 24-26 grains of 2400 works well also. No need to push them fast. With the Gould boolit loaded to 1400-1450 I sometimes get multiple exit wounds at close range on smallish whitetails. I use the Lyman 457193 for pigs loaded to about 1300 and get good expansion cast of 40/1, and plenty of penetration.

[softpoint]

Stick with that RL7 load you have. I've burned a bunch of that powder in .45/70. And I use Felix lube on everything. I make a couple of bread loaf pans at a time.

[JTodd]

Hi guys - I had a big weekend, I took my first ever cast boolit big game animal. I took a small doe at about 45 yards with my 1895 with irons and the rcbs 405 bullet at about 1750. Ive taken lots of small game with cast bullets, but this was my first big game animal with one.

The results were simply astounding. Entry hole in the hide looks like it was cut with a 45cal punch, exit hole in the hide was about 1" in diameter. The holes on meat, ribcage and lungs were about 1.5", the lungs were completely scrambled. It was a "bang flop", the deer never moved. There was a 2' spray of blood and lung chunks on both the entry and exit side which Ive never seen before.

Meat loss outside of the bullet hole was minimal with basically zero "jellied meat".

Im very pleased with how this shook out, and it has me wondering if I should be looking for a 1700-1800fps load with the accurate 405v instead of the more pedestrian 1400-1500 I was considering before. What do you guys think?

[BLAHUT]

Hi guys - I had a big weekend, I took my first ever cast boolit big game animal. I took a small doe at about 45 yards with my 1895 with irons and the rcbs 405 bullet at about 1750. Ive taken lots of small game with cast bullets, but this was my first big game animal with one.

The results were simply astounding. Entry hole in the hide looks like it was cut with a 45cal punch, exit hole in the hide was about 1" in diameter. The holes on meat, ribcage and lungs were about 1.5", the lungs were completely scrambled. It was a "bang flop", the deer never moved. There was a 2' spray of blood and lung chunks on both the entry and exit side which Ive never seen before.

Meat loss outside of the bullet hole was minimal with basically zero "jellied meat".

Im very pleased with how this shook out, and it has me wondering if I should be looking for a 1700-1800fps load with the accurate 405v instead of the more pedestrian 1400-1500 I was considering before. What do you guys think?

1200 FPS is all you need.

[wallacem]

45-70 does not need a lot of speed. I have been shooting 405 gr sized .460 for 30 years with 36 gr IMR3031, around 1300-1400 fps. Kills everything I ask it to, and easy on the shoulder. Wallacem inGa

[725]

Agree with most everybody. Speed is not a big deal with the .45-70. A slow moving 400ish grain boolit will do it all. Accuracy is the only real concern.

[ChristopherO]

Congratulations on your first success with CB. They just plain work well.

My thoughts on velocity went like this, why continue with shotgun slug velocity when I can finally carry a rifle, albeit straight wall cartridge, when deer hunting? My first die was the Lee 405FN that needed honed out for my .4585" bore. It kills water jugs dead at 100 yards with 14 grains of Unique, good cheap fun but that is not what I purchased this rifle for.
When the Accurate mold arrived I started with the high end loads of up to, maybe even exceeding 2,000fps. Brutal with the 1895 CB plastic butt plate, but I was game to grit my teeth and sight them in (multiple powders and ladder loads). Granted, this was with open sights (Skinner Peep) but I took painstaking (emphasis on pain) time to obtain best groups the loads could produce off sandbags at 100 yards. I wasn't pleased with the results on paper.

Then I read where 2400 in the 45/70 can be used which caught my eye as I had two old cans of Hercules 2400 on the shelf. At a pared down 1,620 fps the 5 shot groups were much tighter, plus my shoulder appreciated the reduced pounding it had been receiving. The first deer with this rifle and load I shot just slumped down on the spot. (Some do, some don't) That was 7 or 8 years ago. Running low on the H2400 since then has caused me to use the Hodgdon 4227 acquired last Fall. The best load with that powder is at 1,700 FPS. It swatted a plump year and a half buck last season at 100 yards with satisfying aplomb. He toppled right over without a twitch with both scapula taken out. The impact was almost as loud as the report. Didn't have bloodshot meat, either.

Would the Unique load and the Lee 405FN kill deer well? Has for many others, but the effects of it on 100 yard water jugs compared to the Accurate 405 WFN is anemic, in my humble opinion. The Accurate WFN doesn't destroy globs of meat yet hits will the authority I was/am looking for, even out further in range. I shoot plenty of Blackpowder rifles and enjoy them immensely, but for this rifle I wanted to wring out more than just BP velocities to reach out to 150 yards or so and still have ample power. This is what I wanted out of the 45/70. Some folks want more, other are content with less. Ultimately it is up to you to decide what you desire in a load for your intended use and enjoyment. Have fun finding out. I know I've encountered many hours of fond memories using this round and rifle since Ohio opened the rules to allow it for deer.

[Eddie Southgate]

I shoot Noe 460 396 PB and Magnus .405's at .458 in my Marlin CB with a 26" barrel. I use 5744 , 28g for a easier shooting load and 32g for anything where I feel the need for more speed. The 32g has a thump but is still very manageable unless you plan to shoot 30 or more rounds at a time. Try the 28g , it's plenty fast for deer and is easy on the shoulder.

[huntinlever]

Wow, just want to say congratulations and thanks for the thread John. Came to it on recommendation from a member. I'm in the exact same boat. I was looking at Tom's 46-405M but am now checking the 405V out.

I like my existing load, 425 at 1700 fps. Pretty good wallop. My last deer was shot with that load, just behind the shoulder. Strangest thing is it jumped hard then just starting walking around like nothing had happened. I followed it (more like walked up to it) and put it down. Wounds were like laser cut.

Though I loved the accuracy of the load, I'm coming to understand the wisdom of a slower bullet, not such high BHN, personally. I used 50:50 WW : pb with added 95:5 solder to bring tin to 2%, water quenched, but now I think I'm going to try around 1300-1350 fps with air-cooled 40/1 or at most 20/1.

[ChristopherO]

Wow, just want to say congratulations and thanks for the thread John. Came to it on recommendation from a member. I'm in the exact same boat. I was looking at Tom's 46-405M but am now checking the 405V out.

I like my existing load, 425 at 1700 fps. Pretty good wallop. My last deer was shot with that load, just behind the shoulder. Strangest thing is it jumped hard then just starting walking around like nothing had happened. I followed it (more like walked up to it) and put it down. Wounds were like laser cut.

Though I loved the accuracy of the load, I'm coming to understand the wisdom of a slower bullet, not such high BHN, personally. I used 50:50 WW:pb with added 95:5 solder to bring tin to 2%, water quenched, but now I think I'm going to try around 1300-1350 fps with air-cooled 40/1 or at most 20/1.

When I bought my Accurate 405 WFN mold for the Marlin Lever Action it was designated as the C mold. It has C engraved in the mold, as well. But the current 405C is not what I have. It appears I have the 405T (with Gas Check Shank) that is just before the 46-405V in Tom's online catalogue. I think for the velocities you are looking for that flat based design will suit you very well. They cycle in the lever actions just fine. I used mine to miss a big doe three times this evening. Not the boolit's fault. I estimated her distance too short and didn't touch her. She was a might further than the walnut tree I was using to gauge yardage. She hopped away wondering what all the commotion was all about. But when that big wide flat nose does hit you will know it.

[huntinlever]

Thanks for that background Christopher. To be sure - you're talking about the 405V, not 405M, right? I'd had a bit of concern with the V clearing the GG but it sounds like it shouldn't be an issue - and that meplat is impressive.

[SoonerEd]

If you have any mix ww and pure 50%. That gives you close to 20/1 which was the original Remington mix. Sharps loaded with a 16/1 mix. Those boolits would penetrate two bison side by side, so will do anything you need. Pure ww is a touch hard if you expect any expansion, but as noted, that is by no means necessary.

This is what I do but 50/50 COWW and SOWW plus about 1 1/2% Sn. Or I use RL where mine tests at 7.8 - 8.0 BHN + 2% Sn. I'm shooting in the 1,450 - 1,750 range depending on whether I shooting an 1895 Guide Gun or 1895 Cowboy.

[JTodd]

Hi guys! Sorry, Ive left this thread unattended for a bit. Im glad to see reports of people successfully taking game with the 45-70 and various 400 gr class bullets at speeds from mild to wild. Its also nice to hear accounts of Toms WFN design working will in 1895 rifles.

Ill add that I re-read my loading notes from the day I worked up the load I shot my deer with. According to my chronograph notes, that load is actually closer to 1550fps!

Thabks to everyone who has continued to compile data about the performance of 400 grain cast bullets on medium game with "marlin level" loads. I feel that these are useful loads and many people will eventually benefit from this information.

[Brett Ross]

I my-self use the LEE 347-340 Boolit, PC'd to .459, 45.5 GR 3031 .05GR Dacron filler, out of my CVA hunter. All I can say it kills everything I have pointed it at so far and a bit easier on this old mans shoulder.