Looking for a single Boolit - .38 +P to shoot both Henry Lever and Ruger Vaquero

[Sudsy]

I've been reading for a pretty long time now and am ready to jump into the Cast Boolit game.

I'm new to lever actions, just got my first, and am looking forward to competing in some of the SASS Cowboy Action shoots at my club. (CJRP)
I'll be shooting both the Henry Big Boy and Ruger Vaquero.

I'd like to simplify my life with one round that will work well in both guns, preferably +P
Not sure if it exists but it would be nice
I will be loading with Unique

Other than blackpowder balls, Maxiballs, and fishing sinkers and jigs (which I've been pouring and powdercoating for 40ish years) this is my first foray into casting and my first foray into alloys. I have been reloading for 30 years but buying my bullets.

I'll need a good alloy. I have a few hundred lbs of linotype and the same in pure lead, but only a very small amount of tin, maybe 10 lbs (can always buy more if need be)

I will be powdercoating, although I do have an RCBS Lube-A-Matic if that's a better way to go.

These are the molds I have:
Lee 358-140-SWC
Lyman 358-495-DC
Lee TL358-158-2R
Lyman 358156

I'm leaning towards starting with the Lyman 358156, 155 Grain Semi-Wadcutter w Gas Check as I have 1500 Hornady copper gas checks I picked up somewhere and would like to use them
With +P loads and gas checks I won't have to worry about channeling, correct? I had that happen not too long ago, shooting a purchased name brand cast bullet, causing a squib. Fortunately just jammed the cylinder, didn't get all the way into the barrel - scared the poo out of me none the less.

Is the 358156 the right choice and is semi-wadcutter a good shape for a lever action ?
What percentage alloy should I start with?

Love this site, and have learned a ton already
(and yes I have downloaded and read the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook)

[Froogal]

Use the TL358-158-2R. Forget the +P stuff. It only makes more noise and produces enough recoil to be uncomfortable and really does not do anything else. You don't need a gas check.

[Sudsy]

The TL358-158-2R is a round nose bullet (I shouldn't have listed that one)

I've heard that a round nose bullet is a poor choice in a Henry due to the strong tube spring causing a handful of chain fires - which would be bad

I've experienced the fun of a chain fire in a black powder revolver, I really really really don't want to experience anything even similar to that again. (no major injuries but busted the gun and planted a sliver of metal in my eyebrow that's still there)

[Sudsy]

And as for the +P I like to plink at longer distances, it's just what I enjoy - so a slight flatter shooting round is more desirable.
An I don't find +P recoil to be uncomfortable.
Full magnum rounds are a different story

[TimD]

My Henry big boy will not feed the Lyman 358156. I had some Hornady 125gr XTP and loaded a few of those and they fed fine. I plan to find a round nose flat point mold at some point.

I hope yours feeds better than mine.

[Tim357]

5.5 Unique and 358156. try it without the gas check, you may be surprised

[quilbilly]

Although I don't have a Henry 357 lever, the Lee 125 RF (drops from my mold at 132 gr) in front of 4.6 gr. of Bullseye in a 357 case is almost identical to a 38+p. I use the same shape Lee boolit (the 200 gr 45 cal RF dropping from my mold at 217 gr) in my 45LC Henry and it feeds butter smooth.

[Froogal]

The TL358-158-2R is a round nose bullet (I shouldn't have listed that one)

I've heard that a round nose bullet is a poor choice in a Henry due to the strong tube spring causing a handful of chain fires - which would be bad

I've experienced the fun of a chain fire in a black powder revolver, I really really really don't want to experience anything even similar to that again. (no major injuries but busted the gun and planted a sliver of metal in my eyebrow that's still there)

I have fired MANY of the .358-.158 round nose in my Henry all-weather. NEVER a problem with chain fire.

[Sudsy]

I have fired MANY of the .358-.158 round nose in my Henry all-weather. NEVER a problem with chain fire.

It's rare, but it has happened.
I see no reason to take a chance since I'm starting from scratch.

[Sudsy]

My Henry big boy will not feed the Lyman 358156. I had some Hornady 125gr XTP and loaded a few of those and they fed fine. I plan to find a round nose flat point mold at some point.
I hope yours feeds better than mine.

I had some feeding issues with some store bought semi-wadcutters, catching on the shoulder, so I may have the same issue.
I may start looking for a proper round nose flat point too.

[mnewcomb59]

If I were you I would be looking for a long nose 158. Short nose .30 length such as the Lee 158-RF are pretty short in 38 cases when crimped in the groove. Lever actions usually like at least 1.48" to feed fast and smooth. The NOE 154 WFN is a great bullet that makes a longer OAL 38 round.

[Outpost75]

Accurate 36-159H is designed to produce a 1.55" long .38 Special to feed in .357 carbine and has a .25 meplat for good game performance.

[Walks]

+P loads are not allowed in Cowboy Shoots.
SASS rules forbid the use of anything but std velocity loads.
When My Kids were young. They shot many, many thousands of light .38Spl loads in Cowboy shoots.
They used the Lee #358-158-RF or Lyman #358665 over 3.5grs of Bullseye.
Bullseye does not react as negatively as more modern ball powders with Powder Coat.
The Lyman mold is listed in 2cav & 4cav, the Lee in 2cav or 6cav.
If your rifle requires a longer O.A.L. then the .38Spl case, you can always load the longer .357Mag case for rifle use only.
Unique; I suggest 4.0grs in .38Spl or 4.5grs in .357Mag cases.
Good Luck

[Texas by God]

Find the bullet and load that prints to the sights in your Vaquero - then see if it feeds in your Henry and adjust the sights if needed.
My .04 ( inflation) worth…..

[fn1889m]

“I'd like to simplify my life with one round that will work well in both guns, preferably +P….”


I have a Ruger Vaquero in .44 Spl and a Rossi 92 in .44 Mag. My shared load is the Keith 429421 in .44 Spl cases, with 7.5 grains of Unique. I use a JPW/Alox lube. It feeds well in the Rossi 92. It is still under 1000 fps in the rifle. I think it is about 900 fps in the revolver. My .38 Spl load is the Keith 358429 with 5 grains of Unique. I expect that it will feed similar to .357 in a lever action. The longer bullet seems to feed like the magnum cartridge. The are both flat points, SWC, so they are safe in a tube magazine. I don’t know if they are +P equivalents. But the are not wimpy loads, and are comfortable to shoot. These are old loads, but they are fun and work in both the revolver and lever action for me.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Sudsy,

I can't say for the Henry, but my son & I shoot the Lyman 358156
in both my Rossi Puma, and his Marlin 1894 Cowboy with no feeding issues.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Froogal]

I might add that not only have I never encountered any chain fire issues in the Henry, but after many thousands of rounds through a Rossi, NO problems there either. My wife shoots the Rossi in cowboy action. If I thought there was ANY chance for chain fire, I would not let her use it.

[popper]

RN lead is not a problem in tube mag. Pointy hard nose is a no-no.

[sundog]

Nix the +P and gas checks for SASS matches. Not allowed. Nor are they appreciated by the other 'cowboys' and 'cowgirls' who are participating.

If you like the 358156 (one of my favorites in .357 mag) look for a Ly 358477 (sorta similar and it's plain base). And slow them down for the cowboy shoots.

[Larry Gibson]

Nix the +P and gas checks for SASS matches. Not allowed. Nor are they appreciated by the other 'cowboys' and 'cowgirls' who are participating.

If you like the 358156 (one of my favorites in .357 mag) look for a Ly 358477 (sorta similar and it's plain base). And slow them down for the cowboy shoots.

If you want shoot SASS then, as mentioned, neither GC nor the +P load are allowed. Best to use a 125 gr bullet in 38 SPL cases with a load of Bullseye or Red Dot (or similar burning rate powder) that gives a velocity of 600 +/- fps.

For a +P load in 38 SPL cases for other purposes the 356156 is always my first choice. Cast soft (I prefer 40-1 alloy) and loaded over .5.5 gr of Unique with the bullet seated to the first crimp groove will equal the original Winchester 38 SPL +P load in velocity and psi. If seated out to the 2nd crimp groove then use 6 gr Unique.

[Sudsy]

If you want shoot SASS then, as mentioned, neither GC nor the +P load are allowed.

Ah nuts ! I didn't know that - this completely changes the situation, now it needs to be rethunk (rethinked? Is rethunk a word?).

[Sudsy]

I guess now it will be loaded as .38 sp for SASS since I can't use +P and 357 mag for entertainment purposes

Obviously using different alloys, what is the opinion on this mold in flat non-GC base ?

http://arsenalmolds.com/bullet-molds?product_id=213&limit=99999999999

[Larry Gibson]

You mention in your 1st post you already have these moulds:

"These are the molds I have:
Lee 358-140-SWC
Lyman 358-495-DC
Lee TL358-158-2R
Lyman 358156"

Suggest you try the 358-140-SWC over 3.5 gr Bullseye for 38 SPL. If that doesn't feed then go to the 358-158-2R over the same load. If either work out for what you want Lee makes the 6 cavity mould for both.

My go to cast bullet for many, many years for the 357 Magnum has been the 358156. I've not found anything better. For best accuracy with top end magnum loads in a riifle you'll want the GC'd bullet.

[Sudsy]

You mention in your 1st post you already have these moulds:

"These are the molds I have:
Lee 358-140-SWC
Lyman 358-495-DC
Lee TL358-158-2R
Lyman 358156"

Suggest you try the 358-140-SWC over 3.5 gr Bullseye for 38 SPL. If that doesn't feed then go to the 358-158-2R over the same load

Made up a tube full of dummy rounds with the 358-140-SWC. Feeding was horrible, couldn't run more than 4 in a row without a jam or stovepipe.
Anything with a shoulder is obviously out.

[billmc2]

Ah nuts ! I didn't know that - this completely changes the situation, now it needs to be rethunk (rethinked? Is rethunk a word?).

I suppose if you are referencing the King's English (now that there is a King again), rethunk isn't going to cut it. On the other hand, considering where it will be used, I'm pretty sure Festus would find it perfectly acceptable.

[Sudsy]

Update

I got the Arsenal 358-158 RF Ranch Dog Clone mold

With Lino-Lead/GC/PC and Hi-Skoor 700 it's performing brilliantly from .38+P to 357 mag in both the Henry and the Blackhawk
I'm exceptionally pleased with the accuracy, particularly with +p in the revolver.

Using up the last of an open can of powder, going to go to 2400 next as I have a few lbs of it. Anyone have a pet in between +p and magnum load using 2400 that might work well in both revolver and lever action ?

[Tim357]

11 gr 2400 in .38 SPL case w/ 158 gr boolit is a factory .38/44 duplication load. 1100 +- from 4" bbl, no idea how fast out of carbine length bbl

[Photog]

If you are looking for speed out of the 38 special, I found that 20/28 (just a skooch faster than Unique) or equivalent speed powder with a Lee 125RF boolit made with 94-2-2 lead from GT Bullets gets right up to 1600fps in my Uberti 1866. Its not a recommended rifle/pressure combo, but I feel its safe enough for occasional 3 or 4 rounds. Otherwise I have used W231 to get really great carbine loads at low pressures. My experiments with 2400 were not successful at all without getting into magnum pressures. Its just too slow to get a consistent burn, unless you launch a heavy for caliber projectile and run up the pressure to get it to burn.
A great cowboy load is the Lee 125RF with 3.2gr of American Select (accurate) or 2.5gr of Titegroup (zero recoil). I've gone down to 1.8gr of Alliant Extralite, but at a certain point the accuracy is just too bad in the revolvers at the low speeds. There is a tradeoff with cowboy action loads, those super light recoiling, slow velocity loads are good out to 50 feet, then the accuracy drops off, and you gotta use a real fast powder or else the Velocity SD is was up and your long shots are hard to predict.