Reloading Notes - Part 1 (Sizing)

[Mint]

This is my first time reloading, and thanks to tons of helpful posts here I got started yesterday after all my stuff came. Thank you to Kosh, Bazoo, EdK, and many many others for answering my countless 1000 never ending questions. Cast Boolits by far is the most welcoming knowledgable gun forum I have ever taken part in.

Considering I don't have a "mentor" to show me, and all I have is dozens of hours of reading/preparing/asking questions/watching videos... I figure it would be a good idea to post my progress as I go through it the first time, and take detailed notes, so that if I'm making any errors or there are things I'm doing someone can spot it would help me.

So here are the notes I wrote down, and some photos. I am more detailed rather than less detailed, as that would be stupid otherwise. I'm not going to assume something is small or irrelevant, as it may be very important and result in some kind of injury/increase margin of error.

Part 2, 3, maybe 4 (analyzing brass that I shoot), will come later. I'll probably attempt priming and powder today or tomorrow.

Part 1 - Sizing

My Setup

You can see photos at bottom of post.

- I plan to move BBQ/grilling related stuff into a closed container in the same shed so over time it doesn't collect reloading particles

- I plan to make 2 or 3 shelves off to the right against the wall about eye level which will hold: 1) micrometer 2) mechanical scale 3) powders, such that only 1 powder is on the bench at once, and any delicate measuring equipment won't be jarred/vibrated thousands of times... not sure if that matters

- I honestly don't know where to store primers. Right now they're in a bucket under the workbench in their original container, along with all the items for that specific caliber (44 mag brass, dies, primers). If this is not OK let me know

- I also plan to screw the table right back/front into the slats of the wall to prevent wiggle

- I bought a RCBS chargemaster supreme yesterday after I talked to a few people about beginners blowing up their guns using very fast powders. While they did that by doing things I don't ever see myself doing (not zeroing scale, etc), I wanted to be extra safe rather than sorry, so I can measure twice with 2 different scales while I'm starting, as I have no idea what will look visually right or wrong.

Notes from Sizing

- I'm sizing 500x .357 starline brass for use with lead bullets in different lever guns. I'm doing sizing before loading even though they're new as I've read a few different places this is a good idea for consistency

- I encountered pressure galling which I resolved here: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?449285-What-are-these-lines-in-brass-after-sizing

- I wasnt actually sure what to "look for" when sizing to make sure its done correctly... so all I did was notice that it makes the brass extremely shiny and smooth, when compared to about 1/8" at bottom of case that doesn't get sized. I looked for consistent shininess, so hopefully that's about it as far as what to inspect.

- The lee dies say only finger tighten. I notice my dies look different than many videos I see where they use a wrench. Every 100 rounds I would re-tighten it with my finger. The most I've ever needed to re-tighten it was maybe 1mm turn.

- I noticed I banged the case into the carbide ring quite a few times, usually if I didn't seat it far enough, or too far. I noticed its like 1mm from the edge of the shell holder, which is really quite clever, because the brass sticks to your finger for 1 millisecond, so naturally every time it will pull away JUST enough to go in perfectly. If the brass banged into the shell holder very badly, I notice the mouth would be very dented. I did this maybe 4-5 times, and I discarded those cases. When I bumped it gently, and I inspected the rim and it was not/just barely noticeable, I would size it again and call it good as long as there was not really a noticeable bump with my finger.

- I noticed if I place the shell holder at 225 degrees [/] rather than 270 degrees [-], I would accidentally bang it into the carbide ring less frequently]

- I noticed efficiency wise, not lowering the ram all the way down was better, just as long as I make sure to do 100% follow through.

- Now.. this last one, I experimented with the most efficient ways to load brass with my off hand. I found 3 methods so far...

1) ONLY ONE case in hand at all times (slowest, least error prone).

2) While ram is raised, grab 2nd brass and keep hidden in palm. Use pointer fingers to throw sized brass into bucket (while still holding unsized brass) then move palmed brass into shell holder (2nd fastest, most error prone)

3) While ram is raised, grab 2nd brass in palm. When ram is lowered, immediately SWAP old vs new brass, and then throw sized brass into bucket (fastest, 2nd most error prone)

Method 2 is most error prone because 2 times once my mind went onto auto pilot I threw the wrong brass into the bucket. I immediately rejected this method because of this.

Method 3 I like most, and it has less margin of error rather than 2 (while on autopilot) because you only ever hold 1 brass at a time when you're throwing, so you cant accidentally throw the wrong one.

While I didnt encounter any errors with method 3, I decided to stick with method 1 which has basically LEAST propensity to error, just so I could turn my mind on autopilot and not worry about it.

Thanks for reading!

https://i.imgur.com/Te9hcOZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UtGNLSM.jpg

[pworley1]

That is a nice looking setup, but it is way to uncluttered.

[The Dar]

Very nice, but I can see you'll be running out of room on that surface in no time.

I would store your powders elsewhere so that you only have the one you're using on the bench.

[Mint]

Very nice, but I can see you'll be running out of room on that surface in no time.

I would store your powders elsewhere so that you only have the one you're using on the bench.

Thanks, I addressed that in one of my points, but I agree with you. I'm going to mount them off to the right so they're still within my vision but not on the bench.

[Wayne Smith]

Yeah, you haven't built your shelves yet. Once you do that and get your powders and scale off the bench it will have a little more room.

[dverna]

Get a case kicker.

Measuring twice is going to get old real quick. Use a powder dipper. Cheap, fast and safe.

DO NOT USE A LOADING BLOCK to charge your cases. When you are ready to add powder and a bullet, put powder in the case....and immediately seat the bullet. Do not let the case leave your hand until the bullet is seated.

It is impossible to double charge a case using the above method.

[Mint]

Get a case kicker.

Measuring twice is going to get old real quick. Use a powder dipper. Cheap, fast and safe.

DO NOT USE A LOADING BLOCK to charge your cases. When you are ready to add powder and a bullet, put powder in the case....and immediately seat the bullet. Do not let the case leave your hand until the bullet is seated.

It is impossible to double charge a case using the above method.

Wow that ejector looks interesting. Is this what youre referring to? https://inlinefabrication.com/products/case-ejector-system-for-rcbs-rockchucker-single-stage

Also I wasnt going to measure every one twice... just the first 20 or so to make sure the electronic scale is working, and then maybe once every 20 or so.

I havent read up what "drift" is but I see it mentioned a lot, I planned to do that. If anyone wants to say any dos/donts of scales that would help. I havent read the manual yet (just brought it home 10 mins ago)

Also, thanks for pointing out not using the loading block. I actually saw a video where some guy loaded all 100 cases facing the other direction and that seemed error prone to me, even though he was inspecting all the cases with a little light.

[Winger Ed.]

You're doing well. You might not even shoot your eye out kid.

I'd get all the extra powder & primers off the table and up on a shelf or cabinet.
(After you're done-- then it's OK to pile a bunch of clutter back on the bench)
A set of those Lee dippers will do well for what you're doing and speed up the process.

I wouldn't bother with two scales. One that's accurate and you trust is fine.
Using two is like someone wearing both a belt and suspenders because they don't trust their pants.

When sizing like you're doing, I have 4-5-6 in my hand. Run one in, do the stroke, flip it out of the press and let it drop
into a bucket or box that's elevated some up off the floor, then put in the next one.
It sounds like you'd ding them up, but mine don't ever get hurt.

For priming, I'll have a bowl of sized cases, then set them into a loading block as they come off the primer step.
As they come out with a new primer, you can both see and feel if is set right.
I do use a loading try and powder measure/dropper.
I charge all the cases in the block, then look down into all of them before starting all the boolits in their case.
It will be obvious if one is dangerously over or under charged.

Then in one motion- do the seating step, then set the seated round in a bowl a little past the charged cases
so I can drop that one and pick up the next one in one motion.

For the crimp stage, I'll hold a few and run them though the press like doing the sizing and priming steps.


I'm not trying to tell ya how to do this, just what works for me.
You'll develop your own methods & rhythm.
Some of the ways I do it may pick your speed up as your confidence builds.

[Mint]

Ha yes great example with the suspenders + belt. I didnt mean measure EVERY one, just the first 20 or so to make sure the scale works, as well as checking occassionally to make sure it remains accurate.

Over time I will be more comfortable but currently I don't even know what one grain of bullseye powder looks like, so I couldnt currently tell something is off.

When I use lee dippers, what if you want some weight in between what the 2 scoops are, do you need to use one of each scoop (so youre holding multiple ones in your hand)? Isnt that more error prone?

Good idea on the 4-5 at a time.... funny you mentioned throwing them on the floor i almost considered that but didnt want to dent them. great minds think alike!

[1hole]

This is my first time reloading, and thanks to tons of helpful posts here I got started yesterday after all my stuff came.

I first reloaded in mid 1965, by the book. There were no videos and, without mentor, I too was quite apprehensive. I don't consider myself an expert (yet! :)) but I am more confident now. Your post rings more than a few bells! I very well remember opening that first mail order box filled with strange things.


I don't have a "mentor" to show me, and all I have is dozens of hours of reading/preparing/asking questions/watching videos... I figure it would be a good idea to post my progress as I go through it the first time, and take detailed notes, so that if I'm making any errors or there are things I'm doing someone can spot it would help me.

Nothing you're doing is "unsafe error" but some of it is over reacting. For instance, you need not fear any poisonous reloading dust or fumes contaminating your charcoal grill! Nor is there any value in sizing straight wall cases hard to the rim, just size down far enough for your reloads to pass the "plunk" test; they'll feed fine, you won't endanger your dies and your cases will last longer. :)


- I plan to make 2 or 3 shelves off to the right against the wall about eye level which will hold: 1) micrometer 2) mechanical scale ...

Good start but you're unlikely to ever have enough storage space. Open shelving for powders, bullets and primers is fine and allows you to "inventory" those supplies at a glance IF you keep the shelving narrow enough to keep things from getting lost to the rear. Wall shelving no more than 6 or 8 inches wide works well for small stuff while higher and wider shelves work great for powders.

Having a micrometer is nice but having a 6" caliper is much nicer.

I have some very costly machinist measuring tools but the calipers sold by Harbor Freight for $20 or less have proven to be as good as any other costing less than $200. (Either way, if/when you drop those things the width of your tear tracks will vary directly with the cost of replacing them!)

Scales; a magnetically dampened, clean and undamaged balance scale is totally reliable, totally repeatable and lasts forever. I'm still using my 1965 powder scale and it still reads my original test weight (260.9 gr.) exactly the same as the first day.

Beam scales and a manual powder trickler serve us best when they're solidly supported (not press mounted) very near the powder measure and at or just below eye level; that makes them precise and as easy/fast reading to use as anyone's flaky bench top digital scale. IMHO, beam scales are for gun powder, digitals are for cases and bullets. (And a simple hanky laid over the scale makes a great dust cover!)

Please don't mount your scale where you'll have to make a half turn to use it, you would soon regret that. Instead put it's shelf on the wall across from and slightly to the left of your press for a maximum smooth work flow.


.... such that only 1 powder is on the bench at once, and any delicate measuring equipment won't be jarred/vibrated thousands of times... not sure if that matters.

Yeah, I often read that expert advice too. But, as an old amature, I suggest putting the containers of your in-use powder - and primers and bullets - to the far left on the same shelf as your powder scale (keep things neat, put nothing but manuals, cases and loading blocks directly on your bench top). That practice prevents component mix-up AND reduces bench clutter.

Steel office supply storage lockers and filing cabinets can often be bought cheep from many thrift shops for not much. I prefer those lockers and cabinets for storing cases, tumblers & media, dies, case trimmers, concentricity gages, bulk primers, case lubes, loading blocks, paper towels, waterless hand cleaners, loading manuals, etc. The lockable doors help control both shop dust and grandkids.


I honestly don't know where to store primers. Right now they're in a bucket under the workbench in their original container, along with all the items for that specific caliber (44 mag brass, dies, primers). If this is not OK let me know

That's fine for safety but in practice I think you're likely to find it clumsy. Both primers and powders are much more resistant to aging than many folk believe.

Cold doesn't do anything harmful to primers (or powder) but long term exposure to humanly uncomfortable heat - say, more than 85 F - will accelerate the aging of powders but that's highly variable. The fastest I've ever had a powder go bad was IMR 4895 kept for maybe 10 years in my unheated/uncooled detached garage workshop/loading room. But, I'm still happily using the last of my original Hodgdon 50 lb. drum of WW2 surplus 4831!


I also plan to screw the table right back/front into the slats of the wall to prevent wiggle

Good idea, screws are MUCH better than nails and for the quantity you'll need there won't be much final cost difference.

I've learned to love Lowe's/H'Depot "dry wall" screws! Those hardened steel screws are not just stronger than nails but they make life much easier when adding to or removing from a pre-existing arrangement made with hammers and nails. A good bench is probably the single best reloading "tool" you will ever have.

Suggest you make your bench "legs" in the form of angled "knee braces" instead of vertical legs. Even 1"x4" knee braces properly screwed between the wall studs and floor plate and anchored against the bottom of the bench top are just as strong as massive vertical 4x4" legs and the braces will never be in the way of your feet.


I bought a RCBS chargemaster supreme yesterday after I talked to a few people about beginners blowing up their guns using very fast powders. While they did that by doing things I don't ever see myself doing (not zeroing scale, etc), I wanted to be extra safe rather than sorry, so I can measure twice with 2 different scales while I'm starting, as I have no idea what will look visually right or wrong.

I suppose IF I were a modern mechanical klutz who gets puzzled around machinery with moving parts like pliers I might be interested in gadgets like the currently popular auto powder dispensers but ... I'm not that easily confused. Therefore, I get a littlee bit angry at reloading "experts" who seek to convince noobs that they NEED such costly contraptions.

Fact is, I've known a lot of new reloaders over the last 5-6 decades but I know of no one who was so confused about what they were doing that they made things that go KABOOM! because they didn't have an expensive digital scale or auto-dispenser. Costly tools will never be a functional substitute for a functioning brain but I'd bet those helpful guys you spoke with have heard - and probably believe - some false tall tails!


Notes from Sizing - I'm sizing 500x .357 starline brass for use with lead bullets in different lever guns. I'm doing sizing before loading even though they're new as I've read a few different places this is a good idea for consistency.

No .357 and lead bullets from lever guns are ever going to shoot like bench rifles so being finicky about Case length or loaded COAL, or powder charges individually weighted to +/- .1 gr., etc., will never matter.


I encountered pressure galling which I resolved here: https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?449285-What-are-these-lines-in-brass-after-sizing

Galling is ONLY caused by forcing a very dry soft metal (tumbled or brand new cases) over a harder metal (hardened die) under enough pressure to reform the softer. The ONLY effective preventative of galling is to apply a little bit of case lube. A spritz of any spray lube into a plastic bag of cases and then mashed/spread around by hand will prevent it.


- I wasnt actually sure what to "look for" when sizing to make sure its done correctly... so all I did was notice that it makes the brass extremely shiny and smooth, when compared to about 1/8" at bottom of case that doesn't get sized. I looked for consistent shininess, so hopefully that's about it as far as what to inspect.

As mentioned by someone above, galled sizing dies (steel or carbide) must be cleaned down to bare metal or it will continue to accumulate and scratch your cases. And, again, you need not jam a fired "straight" wall case as far into a sizer as it can go.


The lee dies say only finger tighten. I notice my dies look different than many videos I see where they use a wrench.

Lee is right, hand tight dies are plenty tight. Some of our very best die makers use knurled lock rings to keep "expert" users from happily putting pliers and wrenches on them. That won't harm the dies but it sure chews up the lock rings, and for no gain at all.

Any perceived "change" in how far down an installed Lee die appears comes from compressing Lee's rubber "O" ring friction device, not from die movement. Truth is, hand tight dies will NOT vibrate in or out when in use. IMHO, a "1 mm" change in a lock ring is no effective change at all (And, yeah, I always strive for and sometimes get 1 hole groups from some of my factory rifle barrels.)


I noticed I banged the case into the carbide ring quite a few times, usually if I didn't seat it far enough, or too far. I noticed its like 1mm from the edge of the shell holder, which is really quite clever, because the brass sticks to your finger for 1 millisecond, so naturally every time it will pull away JUST enough to go in perfectly. If the brass banged into the shell holder very badly, I notice the mouth would be very dented. I did this maybe 4-5 times, and I discarded those cases. When I bumped it gently, and I inspected the rim and it was not/just barely noticeable, I would size it again and call it good as long as there was not really a noticeable bump with my finger.

- I noticed if I place the shell holder at 225 degrees [/] rather than 270 degrees [-], I would accidentally bang it into the carbide ring less frequently]

Not sure what you mean here ... are you referring to Lee's conventional carbide sizer OR to their FCD excellent seating die with a crimper, including their excellent carbide post seating sizing ring - OR ... ???

[Winger Ed.]

When I use lee dippers, what if you want some weight in between what the 2 scoops are, do you need to use one of each scoop (so youre holding multiple ones in your hand)? Isnt that more error prone?

Good idea on the 4-5 at a time.... funny you mentioned throwing them on the floor i almost considered that but didnt want to dent them.

I don't use dippers, but they work just fine if you do.
Be consistent with the scooping. You don't want some 'fluffy' and some sort of packed into it.
An adjustable powder measure is just a glorified version of the same principle.
For one in the middle between two-- I've heard of guys shaving the top off the next bigger one until it's the volume you want.

For dropping sized cases, I have a cardboard box or a big plastic bowl sitting on top of a over turned 5 gallon bucket.
I drop them to be quicker,,,,,, but they don't really fall very far.

[dverna]

Wow that ejector looks interesting. Is this what youre referring to? https://inlinefabrication.com/products/case-ejector-system-for-rcbs-rockchucker-single-stage

Also I wasnt going to measure every one twice... just the first 20 or so to make sure the electronic scale is working, and then maybe once every 20 or so.

I havent read up what "drift" is but I see it mentioned a lot, I planned to do that. If anyone wants to say any dos/donts of scales that would help. I havent read the manual yet (just brought it home 10 mins ago)

Also, thanks for pointing out not using the loading block. I actually saw a video where some guy loaded all 100 cases facing the other direction and that seemed error prone to me, even though he was inspecting all the cases with a little light.

I have that case kicker on my RCBS RockChucker.

[Mint]

1hole, very aweome reply thank you, I'm just about to eat and I need to rest my brain and I can give more attention to your awesome answer. To answer your last question... if the case isnt perfectly aligned while sizing in the case holder, it will hit the carbide ring when you pull the lever down rather than traveling through it, so it basically bangs the case and dents the mouth

[Moleman-]

Looks like a better starter setup than I had. For the cases you threw out. Unless they're really damaged or cut they can usually be tapped back into shape over a rod held in a vise or by sticking something like a tapered centerpunch in it. Stepped on brass as long as it's not totally flat can be saved and reused. On low pressure handgun brass it may take a few firings before the brass smooths out again and is unnoticable. If it were me, I'd keep the powder and primers inside someplace that doesn't get too hot or damp.

[Bazoo]

Isolating the scale is a good idea.

Primers are happy wherever as long as they don’t get wet or real hot. A bucket will suffice, preferably with lid.

What to look for with brass? Well, cracks or something out of the ordinary. You’ll feel it when something ain’t right after a while. I rarely inspect brass specifically until I have a finished round. Then I roll several in my palm for a final inspection. But I do glance at them during the processes. I mean I don’t look at each piece as a separate step. I inspect it as I handle it.

I don’t use a loading block except for when I charge cases with powder. So all the other time I work out of coffee cans or Tupperware. Primed, ready to load brass in a coffee can on one side of the powder measure/dipper station, loading block on the other side.

When you charge cases and get a block full ready to inspect, then I will sometimes throw a double charge into a case and use that as a visual for comparison. But you got to make absolutely sure you dump that case back in the measure.

Dented cases are still loadable. If it gets a crease, then no. Sometimes you may need to use the second die, the belling or expanding die, to iron out a dent, then size again. As long as it chambers, a little dent will iron out upon firing.

When you use lee dippers, you pretty much get what you get. You don’t use two different ones to get a charge, for safety. You can modify them to throw a specific charge.

The way I change cases with an O frame press is, left hand grabs a fresh case between finger and thumb, the case that’s on the ram is removed with my middle finger. I stick my middle finger behind it and snatch it out of the shell holder and into my palm and in an instant stick the new case in with my thumb. Drop that case into the tub and reach for another.

I put the drop tub somewhere down normally and I lay the ones To be sized on the bench. Dump them in a shallow pan or on a towel. Put your eyes on only the one you’re going to grab and get it.

[Misery-Whip]

Before you collect, and fill your work space, id insulate the walls, and add more bench space. Reloading is addicting, and i want to be able to do it comfortably. Year round.


But im old and getting set in my ways.... your doin good, keep up the good work. Ive used dippers for years. Especially on small rounds like 380 and 32acp.

[jetinteriorguy]

I see the issue with the case mouth getting dinged has been addressed by Bazoo so I’ll skip my comment on that, the only thing I’d change is where you have your press mounted right next to the wall. I’d move it further out so you can mount some bins by it. Being right handed I pump the handle with my left and insert/remove shell cases with my right. I actually have two bins on my right and one on the left side of the press. On the right one bin for unprocessed brass, the left for processed brass. Then when seating bullets, the one furthest to the right holds brass ready to be charged with powder, and the one on the right holds the bullets. I pick out a piece of brass, charge it and insert it into the shell holder, add the bullet, seat it, and then remove it and put the finished product in the bin to the left. Basically it’s about good work flow. I also have my powder measure mounted next to the press on the right side in front of the bin with the processed cases so it’s very handy for charging. I also have a very sturdy shelf directly in back of the press so my scale sits at eye level for when I’m working up loads.

[Mint]

The way I change cases with an O frame press is, left hand grabs a fresh case between finger and thumb, the case that’s on the ram is removed with my middle finger. I stick my middle finger behind it and snatch it out of the shell holder and into my palm and in an instant stick the new case in with my thumb. Drop that case into the tub and reach for another.

As a sidenote, most of what I do for a living is related to efficiency. On my list of things important to me, efficiency is paramount. I find delight in even the smallest details... for example you have improved upon my very similar method a fraction by using your palm to grab the finished case, rather than the to-do case. Such a miniscule detail that gives me great delight

Thanks for all the other information, this is great. I'm about to go out there now and prime some, and follow some advice in this thread and make a few loads.

[Bazoo]

I went and got a picture for you. I didn’t realize I also use my ring finger. Grabbing the case between my middle and ring finger and then into my palm. For me, it’s fumble free and quick.

About to remove the finished case
https://i.postimg.cc/zfdP2KX6/6-F8-C47-C1-DAE1-446-D-974-F-D7-D70400263-F.jpg (https://postimg.cc/B8KgX8FB)

Finished case removed and about to insert the next

https://i.postimg.cc/4dm2DyYd/6-BC813-F6-546-A-4-BB3-BA58-FC65-B5-F8-A45-C.jpg (https://postimg.cc/9RHBTWt5)

[Mint]

Ok I have a question... I bought 2 sample packs of .357 lead bullets.

Both are 157 grain RNFP.

On the red bullet, the crimp groove is obviously the green arrow.

But which arrow is it on the black one? I would assume the blue one?

https://i.imgur.com/1HoQPjI.png

[Bazoo]

I make furniture for a living. So, being able to grab a handful of plugs and stuff them into screw holes quickly without making a mess of glue or plugs going hither and thither benefits the reloading dexterity.

[Bazoo]

The blue is the crimp groove that portion above the crimp groove is the forward driving band.

[Bazoo]

Here’s a picture of my bench, from the door of my roughly 6’x6’ room.
https://i.postimg.cc/QxGmN0Bh/E305596-B-78-E3-435-B-80-BD-34-DB9-A122-D4-B.jpg (https://postimg.cc/RqdKX1QD)

[Winger Ed.]

The blue and green arrows are crimp grooves.

Usually, crimp grooves will have a taper going up towards the nose.
It gives the crimp a place to go without distorting the boolit.

The red boolit's crimp groove will be more forgiving of slightly different case lengths.

[Mint]

Awesome, thank you.

Sorry 1 more question... I looked at several variations of directions for the expander die. I'm using an NOE expander plug with a Lee expander die (part of the 3 die set).

In all the instructions I am to back it off some variation of turns. When I do this however, it never actually expands anything.

I have to screw it in until it touches the shell holder, and thats the only time it will expand. Here is what it looks like.

I imagine this is OK (the bullet sits without touching it), i just thought it was weird it doesnt match any instructions ive read

https://i.imgur.com/9YuGamt.jpg

[Mint]

I made a test round with no primer or powder.

Maybe I am retarded, but I read the lee instructions for bullet seating + crimping die a number of times, but I still don't understand them. I think it is confusing because it explains each die separately as if it were a 4 die set... however I have a 3 die set. It doesnt really distinguish between the 2 dies when talking about them separately, so I have no idea how in practice to seat this die when they're combined.

The screw knob at the top, I see that controls bullet depth. But how do I control the crimp level, is that the screwing in of the die? How am I supposed to adjust both crimp level and bullet depth simultaneously (meaning if I adjust crimp first the bullet cant be adjusted for seating after, and if I adjust bullet depth first, then when I screw the die to adjust crimp level it will require changing the bullet depth again I think).

I screwed it in till it touches shell holder, unscrewed 3 turns + 1 1/4 turns extra (because magnum). Then, i kept raising and lowering ram while tightening the top small thumb-screw until the bullet fit right into the grooves.

TBH I cant tell if this is crimped or not, lol. Also there is a bulge where the bullet is, very subtle difference, you can see it in the photos. I'm not sure if I should be concerned by that... however it is an oversized lead bullet (.358) so maybe not.

I test cycled all 3 lever guns that use .357 magnum and it seemed to fit well.................

https://i.imgur.com/8pQJyad.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/toYUM4Z.jpg

[Bazoo]

Your test bullet is not crimped. The bulge in the middle of your case is normal.

The belling die looks like it’s set a bit too deep. But better a bit too much than not enough.

That bullet is not seated deep enough. It needs to have the case mouth at the bottom edge of the top driving band. Maybe with a tiny bit of crimp groove showing.

Keep in mind I ain’t familiar with lee dies. So I’m assuming they both seat and crimp at the same time.

You have to adjust the crimp by screwing the die in or out then you have to adjust the seating depth separately.

The way you do it is like this, using a belled case and a bullet

Adjust your die up in the press so it won’t crimp at all. Then screw the seating plug in until it seats the bullet where you want. So you seat a bullet to depth, no crimp.

Then you back the seating stem all the way out so it doesn’t move the bullet, and screw the die in until it crimps a bit. Screw it in more until it crimps the way you want. I measure this crimp and go about .008 or .010 for a heavy crimp, .004 for light. Measure the case just below the mouth and then measure the crimp best you can and use that as a rough “there’s my .008”.

Then, after the crimp is set, you run that round up in the die and screw the seating stem all the way in, tight against the bullet. It will now do both operations at the same time. When you do it at the same time, the measurement of oal will change and you may need to tweak the setting slightly. Usually the seating depth will need to be increased in my experience.

If you have too much crimp, it will actually buckle the case enough it won’t chamber.

[Bazoo]

Here’s 44 special and about .010 crimp. Disregard the surface flaws on my cast bullets.
https://i.postimg.cc/SxKvtPqS/837981-F2-9-C9-C-4-D52-B545-DB05-CCB86288.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ZC1HWVC2)

[Winger Ed.]

The bulge is pretty normal.
The case is sized a little more than it needs to be for that particular lot/brand of brass. I don't worry about it.
The new ammo factory has more control over the final tweaky things like that than we do.
A plus for that is that there's no way the boolit can be 'set back' in the case under recoil.

Your flare looks OK. You only need to do it enough for the boolit to sit square on the charged case
while you get it into the seater die. That's one thing I like about Lee's flaring die-
it doesn't roll a big bell shape on the case if it's set a little too deep.
If you flare more than needed, it'll tend to shorten the life span of the case before it splits.

What works for me is to screw the seater die down until it touches the case. Then raise it just a little & lock it down.
Adjust the seater plug where you want and do the seating.


Some folks seat & crimp in one step. I don't. I always crimp as a separate step. I'm not sure why.
After seating the batch, raise the seater plug way up,
adjust the die body down a little at a time until you get the crimp you want, then lock it.

[Mint]

@Winger + @bazoo, thanks. I will need to revisit what you wrote about seating depth + crimp tomorrow, as that reloading session was very stressful the first time doing that lol.

I did 25 as a test run (before I saw your reply).

For my formula I used 4.5 gr Hodgdon Titegroup according to the loading data. My bullet is 158 gr lead RNFP (not SWC in the formula)

https://i.imgur.com/0R0N8Tj.png

1. Thanks for pointing out about the bullet depth, I will make sure next time the case mouth goes to the bottom of the top driving band. Do you think the seating depth error is OK to shoot these 25 (just this time) or should I fix them first?

2. How do you measure the crimp (ie .008, .010, etc). Do you just use calipers on the part of the brass right below the crimp, and then at the smallest diameter of the crimp, and subtract those?

3. For shooting these 25, I'll skip the crimp and manually feed these 25 into the lever gun 1 at a time. On my next batch when my mind is fresh I will re-read what you wrote about adjusting the dies for crimp+seating simultaneously.

4. Thanks for pointing out belling, maybe I will go back 1/4 turn after I hit the shell holder (right now its not backed off at all)

================

Now I have some other random questions and comments

- Seating primers was very stressful. The manual makes it very clear not to force it, yet, using the hand tool some large amount of force is required (and yes I have small primer size in). After getting a bit of courage to squeeze it really hard, I did one and seated it properly. The 2nd one I did, I tried to use the same force, I aligned the primer visually in the feeder before placing the brass in the shell holder. When I squeezed (squoze?), it sheared part of the primer off and I was very happy it didn't go off (I had eye/ear pro on). I put that tool away, and decided to try the ram to seat primers. That went better and didn't have any issues, so I guess I will use that method until I'm more comfortable. Here is how much I seated them (image below).

- I found trying to measure the primer seating depth with the tiny rod on the end of the caliper to be a massive pain in the ass. there is nowhere to hold the calipers to do this easily, and if you try to "push" the rod in using the primer it doesnt budge, so I didnt want to use much force there on the primer. I would love to know a better way to do this... I got readings between .003 and .009 but the .009 could have been from me and not a proper measurement.

https://i.imgur.com/CfICgrH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3MPkxBe.jpg

- I will definitely need to fix my workflow when priming + powder + seating. I didn't focus as much on that this time around as I REALLY wanted to focus on not double/no charging, and making sure the powder was exactly 4.5 gr. I basically belled 25 and placed them mouth up in the shell holder. Then, I set the electronic scale out, put it on manual mode and pressed "GO". Once it was done, I grabbed an empty case, poured it in, immediately put it on the press, put a bullet in and seated it. I would usually push go after putting the powder thing there so it would go while I was seating.

- The powder is incredibly sticky, I assume from static. I dunno if you have any tips for getting the powder OUT of the little scale cup. I banged the cup on the brass 5-10 times to try to get it all out. Some went on the table, some stuck all to the scale. I wouldn't call it a "mess" but the static definitely is a pain in the ass. If anyone has a recommended anti-static product I am all ears.

- I measured the powder from electronic scale periodically on the beam scale, and was pleased that it was perfect.

All in all, I would give it a 5/10 on the "perfect" level, but I'm pleased that I took my time, I'm pretty sure I did everything accurate enough to be comfortable shooting it, but I wanted to ask first given that the bullet seating is off as stated.

If I forgot anything someone told me, forgive me, I was hyper focused on doing it correctly

[Bazoo]

It’s safe to shoot the bullets you seated long, but you also can use those to set up the seat crimp die. I’d use them to set it and run the rest through personally.

Regarding how much force is needed for primer seating, some brass is easier than others. I’d say you just need to get used to it. I don’t have a problem using calipers to measure primer depth. Practice at it? The .003 ones vs the .009 ones, how do they feel with a finger. Your finger will tell you if they are right below the surface or way below. I rarely measure, but I feel every one. Your primers look good. It ain’t as hard as folks make it out, priming I mean.

As far as measuring crimp, yeah that’s how I measure, what you said in #2.

First for static, use a dryer sheet. Then if that don’t work, take a pencil and crush some lead to get powdered graphite. Wipe that on a finger tip and rub it all in the cup. Powder has graphite on it.

[Mint]

Wow, awesome tips! That's a great idea with dryer sheet and powdered graphite.

I just belled and primed another 25 to prepare for tomorrow, and I found out how to better adjust expansion like you stated. I need to do 1/8th turn. Seating primers went smooth.

I really don't like the priming arm, it feels very janky and unprecise. Sometimes it will have a certain physical sensation (it "jumpes" in give), yet other times it's a linear give and I can't even tell if it seated, and it will have... I think it's do to even a slight variation in seating in the shell holder.

Do you think this feels significantly better than the arm primer? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012930411?pid=416519

I always see people mention ram priming, and maybe it was even you (I cant remember now, so much info I've read...), I remember they prefer ram priming. I would buy this in a heartbeat if its even moderately better.

Also, this is probably discussed 5 other times but I think it's best if I'm combing it, to seat the primer in the expansion step right (if using the primer arm). If I use a primer ram, does it still go in the expansion step?

[Mint]

Tomorrow I think I'm going to use Accurate No. 5 just to switch it up. I want to make a lighter load.

I'm looking at this PDF:

https://ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/WesternPowdersHandloadingGuide8.0_WEB.pdf

Under .38 Spl for Accurate No. 5 is:

https://i.imgur.com/gR0VKsD.png

And under .357 magnum for Accurate No. 5 is:

https://i.imgur.com/JGp7yV5.png

I know I asked this question before but JUST making sure for this exact recipe I'm doing everything right... better to be slightly annoying and persistent than... prematurely ending my reloading career :veryconfu

Does this mean it's SAFE to do a START charge of 5.3 and a MAX charge of 9.0? (So basically I have sort of combined 2 recipes). Max would not be approached by me at my experience level, not the exact same type of bullet/primers, etc.

I basically want a velocity less than the starting velocity on 357 magnum. I was thinking around 6.0 just looking at the velocities. I would imagine this is OK but I am just making sure.....

[Bazoo]

That powder charge (between 38 special max and 357 magnum minimum) would be safe in 357 magnum cases, but of course not in 38 special. The max though might not be safe since you don’t have the same bullets they used. For a max charge you have to have data for that specific bullet, or a very close bullet, and it helps to have a lot of experience.

I like ram priming. It is a separate step however. Be honest with you I can’t remember what it feels like using the arm primer on a press since it’s been so long. I seem to recall it being mushy feeling. It shouldn’t be jerky no matter what. Are you sure you have the small primer assembly in the arm? The arm assembly should work without a hitch. It could be its catching on the shell holder sometimes. It could be the priming ram and cup is catching and sliding out slightly, and then seating again as the primer is pushed in. Is the set screw tight? I assume lee uses a set screw like everyone else?

I use a lyman ram prime. I didn’t care for the lee ram prime. I had slight issues with the lyman but it was easy for me to correct and I’m happy as a lark with it. It offers a good feel.

I’ve tried the lee hand primer, actually I used it several years. It was okay but it hurt my hands after a while. So I switched to ram priming.

One thing I think I should mention, with priming, with bullet seating, with catching cases when sizing, depending on the press, technique, and components, you may need to pause the stroke of the handle, go back slightly, then proceed to pull the handle. I often do this when seating bullets to make sure the bullets are touching the nose of the seating stem squarely.

You can prime after sizing or belling. But if you are going to use a powder through die, and later if you go with a turret press or progressive then that’s what you’ll want to do, then you will prime after sizing.

Since I don’t do powder through expanding currently, I prime after belling.

Ain’t you glad now that you didn’t start on a Dillion? It’s not hard but it does take some thorough thought process huh. All the little nuances that you are learning, I don’t even think about. It all comes second nature after you do it a while. Especially after you establish a routine.

[Winger Ed.]

You'll develop a feel for seating primers.
Some seem to drop in, others are rather stuff.

With any brand of the hand priming tools, It helps to wear a sort of thin to medium thickness leather work glove.


Depending on the weather & all, sometimes there seems to be a lot of static electricity in the air.
Plastic stuff makes it seem worse. Grounding will help. If you can't go to a water pipe or something through the floor,
even a wire on going down to the concrete floor with a weight on it or being under the leg of the bench will help.

My bench is all steel, and is pretty heavy. All presses are bolted to it,
and just the steel legs on the concrete floor seems to do a good job for me.

I've heard of people using those grounding bracelets like you'd wear to work on sensative electronics,
but I never felt the need to.

[Mint]

That powder charge (between 38 special max and 357 magnum minimum) would be safe in 357 magnum cases, but of course not in 38 special. The max though might not be safe since you don’t have the same bullets they used. For a max charge you have to have data for that specific bullet, or a very close bullet, and it helps to have a lot of experience.

I like ram priming. It is a separate step however. Be honest with you I can’t remember what it feels like using the arm primer on a press since it’s been so long. I seem to recall it being mushy feeling. It shouldn’t be jerky no matter what. Are you sure you have the small primer assembly in the arm? The arm assembly should work without a hitch. It could be its catching on the shell holder sometimes. It could be the priming ram and cup is catching and sliding out slightly, and then seating again as the primer is pushed in. Is the set screw tight? I assume lee uses a set screw like everyone else?

I use a lyman ram prime. I didn’t care for the lee ram prime. I had slight issues with the lyman but it was easy for me to correct and I’m happy as a lark with it. It offers a good feel.

I’ve tried the lee hand primer, actually I used it several years. It was okay but it hurt my hands after a while. So I switched to ram priming.

One thing I think I should mention, with priming, with bullet seating, with catching cases when sizing, depending on the press, technique, and components, you may need to pause the stroke of the handle, go back slightly, then proceed to pull the handle. I often do this when seating bullets to make sure the bullets are touching the nose of the seating stem squarely.

You can prime after sizing or belling. But if you are going to use a powder through die, and later if you go with a turret press or progressive then that’s what you’ll want to do, then you will prime after sizing.

Since I don’t do powder through expanding currently, I prime after belling.

Ain’t you glad now that you didn’t start on a Dillion? It’s not hard but it does take some thorough thought process huh. All the little nuances that you are learning, I don’t even think about. It all comes second nature after you do it a while. Especially after you establish a routine.

Bazoo, I owe you a beer.. you're an absolute King ♛

Regarding what you said about the load data, makes 1000% sense, that is exactly in line with what I was thinking (only ever in 357 mag case, stay very far away from max charge because of bullet/seating/primer type variations, as well as my experience level). I feel good that it's all clicking finally quite well, and I'm starting to know the answer before asking. I feel like I'm well over the hill and into the clearing, I don't have infinite branching questions anymore, and all the info is perfectly settling. Thanks greatly for all your help.

Regarding the priming arm (its RCBS btw, and came with the Rock Chucker), I wouldnt say that it's jerky... but it will offer resistance, then it will "give" for maybe an inch or two of easy movement, and it will encounter resistance again (which is where i stop). But other times, there is no "give" but rather just an even pressure. In both cases, the primer looks identically seated. I just can only assume its due to the primer just being very slightly off in the shell holder. The screw is tight. Also I will be absolutely sure but the small primer arm was the first thing I set up.

I'd love to use a powder-through die along with neck expansion, but I dont think I can using this NOE expander because it's solid (unlike the stock expander), so I suppose I will just continue to do that as a separate step...

Yes I was just telling my friend this on the phone. I think the Dillon would have been awesome but I'm SUPER glad I took your and other's advice, even though the efficient part of me wanted to do it anyway. I think the greatest thing that is hard to convey, and can only be experienced, is how the entire process is actually very stimulating, fun, and rewarding. I was not expecting the process to be this attention grabbing, I wanted to just churn out rounds in little time as possible. But throughout the day I will go out to the shed and study or tinker, research load data, etc. That would have been exceptionally hard to explore and work on figuring out WHAT loads I even want if it werent for this SS press. I suppose that's another point that I didn't quite realize, is just because you have a load book doesnt mean you have any clue as a beginner WHICH load you actually want. Even with all the help, it feels a bit like picking one arbitrarily sometimes. Trying to pick an arbitrary one, choosing wrong, on a dillon, seems like a pain. Now, when I get a dillon at some point in future I will be well prepared to churn out the recipes I already have tested and love.

[Mint]

You'll develop a feel for seating primers.
Some seem to drop in, others are rather stuff.

With any brand of the hand priming tools, It helps to wear a sort of thin to medium thickness leather work glove.


Depending on the weather & all, sometimes there seems to be a lot of static electricity in the air.
Plastic stuff makes it seem worse. Grounding will help. If you can't go to a water pipe or something through the floor,
even a wire on going down to the concrete floor with a weight on it or being under the leg of the bench will help.

My bench is all steel, and is pretty heavy. All presses are bolted to it,
and just the steel legs on the concrete floor seems to do a good job for me.

I've heard of people using those grounding bracelets like you'd wear to work on sensative electronics,
but I never felt the need to.

Thanks to you as well, I ALSO owe you a beer.

Are you saying I can ground my entire workbench and that will help with static? Do I just run some kind of alligator clip with a wire (connected to metal part of bench) and nail it into the ground. THe top of the bench is thick wood, so I'm not sure if that matters.

What is the purpose of the leather glove?

[Winger Ed.]

THe top of the bench is thick wood, so I'm not sure if that matters.
What is the purpose of the leather glove?

Being wood, it might not work. Another thing would be to ground yourself. Rubber sole shoes insulate you from the floor.
People working on sensitive electronics wear a $5.00 bracelet that connects to a ground with a little clip.
Look for anti-static wrist band on Amazon.

The glove helps you to be able to seat more primers before the blisters come up.:bigsmyl2:

[Bazoo]

I glad to see someone get started. Dunno why I was thinking it was a lee press cause I seen the picture and where you said it was a RC. But it’s lee dies. I went the other way, lee press and RCBS dies.

What you describe in priming is how it feels when using mixed brass. I wouldn’t think it would do it with new though. What brand of primers? I’ve had Winchester primers feel that way.

[Mint]

They were CCI small pistol primers in an OEM box.

[Mint]

Over your guys' entire reloading lifetime, have there ever been some major (potential or actual) mistakes that made you change how you do things? Ie, I almost ****ed up X really bad, so from now on I ALWAYS do Y.

If so, can you tell me not just what the potential mistake was, but HOW and WHAT you changed your process to acommodate it not happening again?

After doing this, I see the BIGGEST thing is to just be extremely deliberate and aware. Double and triple check things.

I can tell the biggest risk will be getting comfortable... not necessarily complacent (I am not one to get more sloppy as I get more comfortable), but rather comfortable in that the thought to triple check something might not even come up because you feel more confident and "safer" in your process.

As a basic example, I had small primers on the bench. When I went to reload them a day later, I just grabbed the box and started loading them, sort of innately trusting me putting them on the bench yesterday. It occured to me as I was loading them that I never explicitly checked the box a second time. Small little things like this I suspect are what bites a person doing this... and really one must form some kind of rules or processes such that it "guards" against small slips of the mind, or (even brief) lapses of mental laziness. Kind of like 1 powder on bench at once rule, etc.

[45_Colt]

After doing this, I see the BIGGEST thing is to just be extremely deliberate and aware. Double and triple check things.

This is it, be methodical. Don't stop and leave until everything is cleaned up and back in place. When reloading think about what you are doing.

On another note, grounding, it is a good idea to have the press grounded. Just a small wire between it and Earth is all that is needed. IIRC, from your first post the bench legs are metal and are resting on a concrete floor. If so just run a wire from somewhere on the press to a leg. Staple/fix it out of the way.

It isn't an electrical ground where NEC must be followed. Just something to drain off static.

And by just your touching the press, R&R'ing cases and so on you too will be grounded.

45_Colt

[Ed K]

After doing this, I see the BIGGEST thing is to just be extremely deliberate and aware. Double and triple check things.

Yes and no.

Yes: "be extremely deliberate and aware". Methodically confirm your recipe, remove your primers from storage, load your primer feed tube, etc. All of this is following the same sequence you've done over and over. Don't "recall" the recipe from memory. Use your notes or reloading handbook. Don't pick up your primers off the bench. Why are they there? Why aren't they in bulk storage in OEM boxes with your large pistol and Rifle primers? Load your primer feed tube and put them away. Don't resume loading the next 50 rounds with the remaining primers leftover in the primer feed tube from last week's session. Why are they still there?

No: I don't double and triple check things. That interrupts the flow. Do you double check primers and triple check powder? Do you double check some things and not others? What is the process? Is it consistent? No TV, No radio, No people, concentrate.

I've never had any kind of accident but 1 is too many so 30 years later I'm still very careful. The Dillon progressive was mentioned earlier in the thread. Bought one in 1994 around 2-3 years after my Rock Chucker kit. I still am not as confident in the loads from the Dillon as the single stage. I mentioned to Mint via PM never to sell off the single stage for a progressive. If you are in this for the long haul I guarantee you will be buying it back (unless I suppose you only load 9mm FMJ in bulk). Do you think even half the progressive handloaders experiencing galling are even aware it is happening? Mint I believe the attention to detail that is inherent in your personality should prevent you from ever having an accident and will contribute greatly to the performance of your handloaded rounds once you are fully up to speed.

Lastly I want to take a moment to recognize the Cast Boolit shooters that are taking the time to help this new handloader out. I simply don't have the time to contribute in the way a number of you brothers have been doing over the past few weeks. Thank you!

[Mint]

attention to detail that is inherent in your personality

Heh, both a gift and a curse. Gift for me... curse for those on the receiving end :grin:

All excellent input, thank you

I'm about to make 1 more thread with my results... but I will do that when I'm done typing this. For now I think I only have one other question for this particular thread...

This below happened 3 times. I fixed it by turning the bullet seating stem much deeper. This occurred when I was installing the die fresh, all 3 times, and then trying to follow the instructions ^ above in this thread how to properly do a seating die.

My current understanding of this process is... seat bullet to proper height with stem, then back off stem. Get proper crimp by twisting entire die. Once crimp is right, put the full bullet in thats been seated, and re-screw the stem down till it hits.

Now, I did that, but I also wasn't sure the "starting" screw in for the die. The Lee manual says 3 turns + 1 3/4 extra for magnum. So when I first insert the die I did 4 3/4 turns. Then I followed the steps above.

Thats when I noticed the bullet wouldnt seat enough, so I would lower the seating depth, try again... lower seating depth, try again...

after the 3rd or 4th try this is what happened to the brass.

My current guess is that even though it doesn't look like there is crimp in the photos above (where Bazoo mentioned theres no crimp), maybe it IS crimping it at that depth? The photos above were taken with the same 4 3/4 backed off turns once it its the shell holder.

I'll have to try again... dialing this one in definitely is taking some time

PS are these recoverable? I have just thrown them in my waste bin.

PPS I forgot to mention, once i got the seating die right, I didnt want to ruin more rounds messing with it as I only have 25 sample bullets.... so below that is a photo of a finished round. Maybe you can see if its actually crimping or not? Maybe I have to back it off like 5 3/4 turns before adjusting seating stem.

https://i.imgur.com/k3IMqnX.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Cm6UEcb.png

[Mint]

Also there is 0% chance of me selling this press...

[Three44s]

Looking at your last picture, you may need to seat just a bit deeper and maybe crimp just a bit less.

You need the case mouth just at the right position so it turns into the crimp groove. Then at the crimp, you want to gently turn the case mouth into the bullet groove.

Looking at your single round in your hand you have the case mouth crushed and folded up along the side of the bullet. The very end of you case is actually crushed in two and that will likely lead to premature case mouth split.

I am guessing on your seating depth but I am pretty sure that you have an over crush of the crimp on the cartridge in the picture.

That said, I hand it to you for being very diligent about educating yourself to become a good and safe handloader!

Load long and prosper!

Three44s

[Mint]

Awesome, thanks for that... yeah, I need to figure that one out. I think what's happening might be when I follow the Lee instructions for the die it's already too much crimp. Maybe I'll try backing off 2 extra turns and then go down...

[Winger Ed.]

Yep, those crushed ones are goners.
I had a buddy who asked me one time if he could have my charged and primed rejects like that.
Without asking or thinking, I just gave 'em to him.
Little did I know, the next time we spent the night at a property I called 'the poison ivy farm and tick ranch'--
After way too many beers, he brought all my old rejects out and threw them in the campfire.


I never did much counting turns on dies.
You'll soon get a feel for what adjustments to make.

As you go along, you'll end up with different head stamps and various lengths of brass in your stash.
On the crimp stage, you'll learn to feel if it's right, or stop the ram if it feels wrong up at the top.

[BLAHUT]

Blue one

[BLAHUT]

Ok I have a question... I bought 2 sample packs of .357 lead bullets.

Both are 157 grain RNFP.

On the red bullet, the crimp groove is obviously the green arrow.

But which arrow is it on the black one? I would assume the blue one?

https://i.imgur.com/1HoQPjI.png

Nice set up Blue one

[robg]

i put a shelf up so my beam scale is at eye level and not disturbed by any vibration from my loading bench.i prep cases in steps ,size a load of cases,next day expand ,then prime case .all in labelled boxes .then when i want to load them up all i have to do is put in powder check tray to make sure the cases have equal amounts of powder seat boolits. if you keep to a routine your are less likely to make an error.

[jetinteriorguy]

I’d only have a couple comments, one of which may be wrong based on my impression. I get the impression from your posts that you are just basically picking a load that’s somewhere within recommended data and then just going out and testing it. This is not a good habit, always start at recommended start loads and work up in increments. My second comment is more geared towards where I think your headed in the future, if you decide to bump up to a progressive press, anytime you have a glitch just remove all of the cases and set them aside to deal with later. Don’t pull them out and try put them back in thinking you have them in the right order, then just continue with the cycle. I learned the hard way and double charged one of my .357’s with an already stout load of Titegroup and it cost me one of my favorite revolvers, luckily no injuries other than my pride.

[Mint]

I’d only have a couple comments, one of which may be wrong based on my impression. I get the impression from your posts that you are just basically picking a load that’s somewhere within recommended data and then just going out and testing it. This is not a good habit, always start at recommended start loads and work up in increments. My second comment is more geared towards where I think your headed in the future, if you decide to bump up to a progressive press, anytime you have a glitch just remove all of the cases and set them aside to deal with later. Don’t pull them out and try put them back in thinking you have them in the right order, then just continue with the cycle. I learned the hard way and double charged one of my .357’s with an already stout load of Titegroup and it cost me one of my favorite revolvers, luckily no injuries other than my pride.

Hmm, what comment of mine gave you that impression? So far I have only done 2 recipes, one of which I used the start load, and the other I used LESS than the start load by going to the 38 spl data (I'm shooting 357 mag)

And very good point about the progressive, I didn't think of that. Is it a possibility with a progressive that you dont actually do multiple rounds at once, but just 1 round to completion? Perhaps for learning that's a good middle ground.

[Bazoo]

Those crushed ones are gone. Now, if they are live rounds, save them. Later on you can disassemble them and save the primers and powder. Provided of course you know which powder is in which.

That crimp.....wowzers! That’s a healthy crimp! Stop that turn counting. That won’t amount to nothing. If you notice on that crimp, from the case mouth going down, there is a straight area of case, then an angled area that is the crimp, then the unmolested case body. You want to have just that angled area, and none of that straight area.

Are you measuring the case lengths? For consistent crimps, you need consistent case length. New brass is often consistent. But if you got a batch that isn’t, you’ll get some that are crimped, some heavy, some light and some none. Within .005 of each other is acceptable. If you have .010 differences, you will need to do one of several things. Sort all the short or long ones out. Trim them all to the same length, this is what I do. Set your dies to the longest ones and if the short ones get any crimp at all be happy.

[Mint]

I wasn't necessarily trying to turn count to find the right amount, moreso the STARTING position.

I would have guessed the Lee instructions would have given me a starting position that doesnt crimp like it's going into a magazine tube with a 200 lb spring.


You want to have just that angled area, and none of that straight area.

OOOOOOOh... makes perfect sense. So then the default directions are most certainly just down way too far. I will have to back it off so there's no crimp. That's partly what made this entire process of this 3rd die a pain in the ass, is I never actually got to adjust the seating stem without crimp happening. That's why the bullet was all torn up.

Next time I will just back an entire 5 or 6 turns, way more than the instructions. Only turn counting there just for the sake of getting it so 0% crimp. Beyond that I will just eye it.

I havent measured case length as I don't have a case trimmer. I vaguely recall someone mentioning not to worry about it in a lever gun

[Bazoo]

Many people say they don’t trim pistol brass. But I am not one of them. I trim my revolver brass because I like consistent crimps.

Uh, not a slight on lee, lee stuff is okay. But they ain’t got the best methods or instructions sometimes. I like lee products. But I prefer others for dies.

The way I set the crimp, after you have a bullet seated to the depth you want. Back the seating stem out Put the cartridge all the way up in the die, press handle down in other words. Then screw the die in by hand till it won’t go any more. That is the beginning of the crimp. Back the cartridge out, turn the die in maybe 1/2 turn and try it. And continue until you have the crimp you want.

Now if you got a serious flare, you might not be able to screw the die in if the flare is scraping the sides of the die even before it gets to the crimp area. That’s one indicator you got too much flare.

[1hole]

This ain't rocket science; any bullet groove we choose to use is "the" crimp groove. I think most of us tend to crimp into the forward groove.

Crimping is simple enough. Usually, only heavy revolver reloads with heavy boolits are roll crimped. Autoloader ammo rarely needs to be crimped so a taper crimper - used correctly - allows the user to flatten/remove the case mouth flair with minimum stress to the case brass.

I haven't followed any one's die instruction sheet since I got passed being a noobi. (Do they still print those things? :)) I started casting and reloading .30-06, .30 Carbine and .38 special in 1965. It took me about a year to get over my noobi fears and learned to adjust my dies for the results I wanted; there were no carbide dies in those days.

I usually lightly lube for my carbide sizers.

[Three44s]

Many people say they don’t trim pistol brass. But I am not one of them. I trim my revolver brass because I like consistent crimps.

.......................................

The way I set the crimp, after you have a bullet seated to the depth you want. Back the seating stem out Put the cartridge all the way up in the die, press handle down in other words. Then screw the die in by hand till it won’t go any more. That is the beginning of the crimp. Back the cartridge out, turn the die in maybe 1/2 turn and try it. And continue until you have the crimp you want.

......................


+10!

I trim my revolver brass as well. I want consistent crimps as well.

I would likely be more cautious about half turns on the die body and go slower as I feel for the added resistance of reaching the state of crimp I seek.

Three44s

[Bazoo]

Yeah three44 is right, 1/2 turn probably is more than I do. Maybe 1/8 turn at a time. Sneak up on it.

[Three44s]

Yeah three44 is right, 1/2 turn probably is more than I do. Maybe 1/8 turn at a time. Sneak up on it.

It might approach a 1/2 turn at first contact but I agree that 1/8 turn or even a 1/16.

But “sneak up on it” certainly fits!

Best regards

Three44s

[jetinteriorguy]

Hmm, what comment of mine gave you that impression? So far I have only done 2 recipes, one of which I used the start load, and the other I used LESS than the start load by going to the 38 spl data (I'm shooting 357 mag)

And very good point about the progressive, I didn't think of that. Is it a possibility with a progressive that you dont actually do multiple rounds at once, but just 1 round to completion? Perhaps for learning that's a good middle ground.

You’ve stated that you’re a new hand loader and are already looking at being more efficient at just removing and replacing cases in the press by handling two at a time, plus you make no mention of using a starting load when showing a couple targets using different components. This sort of led me to think you’re trying to run before learning to walk, which is fairly common with new loaders but is also a recipe for disaster. This is what led me to think you just randomly picked a couple loads somewhere within published data, not starting loads. My apologies for making a wrong assumption. As a suggestion it’s pretty standard when working up a load to load a few at starting charges and then working up to a max load or one your comfortable with, by increasing in increments until you find a load that works for you. In revolvers I do six rounds, or one cylinders worth, per load increment. In semi auto pistols I do five rounds per increment. I choose increments based on the overall difference between minimum and maximum load sizes. In smaller loads I generally go .2gr at a time and larger size loads .3gr per increment. I also only work on one load at a time, one powder, one bullet, one primer, and one caliber. I do applaud your enthusiasm and hope you have many years of fun with this, I’ve been doing it since the early eighties and still average loading and shooting in various calibers around 8000-10,000 rounds per year and love every minute of it.

[Mint]

You’ve stated that you’re a new hand loader and are already looking at being more efficient at just removing and replacing cases in the press by handling two at a time, plus you make no mention of using a starting load when showing a couple targets using different components. This sort of led me to think you’re trying to run before learning to walk, which is fairly common with new loaders but is also a recipe for disaster. This is what led me to think you just randomly picked a couple loads somewhere within published data, not starting loads. My apologies for making a wrong assumption. As a suggestion it’s pretty standard when working up a load to load a few at starting charges and then working up to a max load or one your comfortable with, by increasing in increments until you find a load that works for you. In revolvers I do six rounds, or one cylinders worth, per load increment. In semi auto pistols I do five rounds per increment. I choose increments based on the overall difference between minimum and maximum load sizes. In smaller loads I generally go .2gr at a time and larger size loads .3gr per increment. I also only work on one load at a time, one powder, one bullet, one primer, and one caliber. I do applaud your enthusiasm and hope you have many years of fun with this, I’ve been doing it since the early eighties and still average loading and shooting in various calibers around 8000-10,000 rounds per year and love every minute of it.

Ah ok that's understandable. I made a bunch of other threads where we just discussed the actual load data.

I sort of have no interest at all right now trying to get max loads, heh. It's still quite nerve wracking, need to make sure I do everything perfectly and understand pressure signs before doing much higher.

My lever gun in 44 magnum comes soon, I may just try to do a middle of the road set of rounds and see how that goes :D

Thanks!

[Bazoo]

Mint, you said “Understand pressure signs”. Make no mistake, in calibers like 38 special, 44 special, 45 auto, there are no signs of high pressure before pressure rises high enough to damage or destroy the gun, with guns so chambered.

In 357 and 44 magnum you can have high pressure signs such as sticky extraction but it’s not a guarantee. Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs. You might get only 2-4 reloads on your brass is the only sign you’re over pressure. But your gun won’t take it forever without taking some fatigue and wear.


It’s totally safe to start with a 38 special load in magnum cases, but you shouldn’t start in the middle of the magnum data. You really need not increase the powder charges until you are throughly familiar with all the details of loading. One of the only estimations you have of pressure is the manuals recipe. Another is abnormal report or recoil.

[Mint]

Mint, you said “Understand pressure signs”. Make no mistake, in calibers like 38 special, 44 special, 45 auto, there are no signs of high pressure before pressure rises high enough to damage or destroy the gun, with guns so chambered.

In 357 and 44 magnum you can have high pressure signs such as sticky extraction but it’s not a guarantee. Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs. You might get only 2-4 reloads on your brass is the only sign you’re over pressure. But your gun won’t take it forever without taking some fatigue and wear.


It’s totally safe to start with a 38 special load in magnum cases, but you shouldn’t start in the middle of the magnum data. You really need not increase the powder charges until you are throughly familiar with all the details of loading. One of the only estimations you have of pressure is the manuals recipe. Another is abnormal report or recoil.

Wow, definitely extremely solid info. I need to re-read that again a few times, but very quick question... I've been thinking of this for awhile. If I just buy a standard 44 magnum load (a generic hollow point round or something) about where on the Start <--> Max load scale do you think it is? Would it be somewhere in the middle?

Basically I'm just wondering generally where factory ammo sits on this spectrum, whether its (on average) 50% or 80%

[Mint]

In 357 and 44 magnum you can have high pressure signs such as sticky extraction but it’s not a guarantee. Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs. You might get only 2-4 reloads on your brass is the only sign you’re over pressure. But your gun won’t take it forever without taking some fatigue and wear.


It’s totally safe to start with a 38 special load in magnum cases, but you shouldn’t start in the middle of the magnum data. You really need not increase the powder charges until you are throughly familiar with all the details of loading. One of the only estimations you have of pressure is the manuals recipe. Another is abnormal report or recoil.

Can you explain a bit more why magnum doesn't show pressure signs? When you say "Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs.", do you mean to say that high pressure signs only appear ACROSS THE BOARD (all calibers) at SOME pressure level? Based on what you said...... maybe 50,000 PSI or something?

If so, that is very very interesting. I'm surprised manuals don't make a bigger deal about that because that is a huge huge point............ I just assumed regardless of caliber, I will see high pressure signs when I reach some % threshhold of the max saami spec PSI (like whether its 90%, 99%, 120%). Now that you said that though.... that makes way more sense becuase its the same brass, same primers, etc

Duly noted on only doing start loads for 44 magnum.

I was thinking something like this...

https://i.imgur.com/2iCf23T.png

[Bazoo]

Factory ammo is somewhere between 80% and 100%. Pends on who loaded it. Sometimes it will be slightly over pressure for you. Mostly it’s probably about 90% I’d say for 44 mag. Probably 80% for 38 special.

You’ll never see high pressure signs in 44 special, but in 44 mag you can. If I recall correctly 44 mag is a 35k psi cartridge. You won’t see high pressure signs normally at 30k but will start, I think, around 40k and likely won’t at 35k. But I’d guess the only signs you’re likely to see is stuck brass and maybe primer pockets getting loose after only a few reloads. Your gun won’t take 40k psi loads for long without developing headspace wear, but it might take a couple thousand.

Sometimes you’ll see pressure signs like stuck cases that are not from high pressure. Such as soft brass. Or rough chambers. How do you know? Experience. I had stuck cases in my 30-30. It want high pressure, I was sure. But I posted about it and after some thought, figured out it was lube left on the brass causing high bolt thrust locking the gun up. I cleaned my cases better and the problem stopped immediately. Taking careful notes on a matter like that is a must. Changing case lube might not be remember when a problem arises.

[Mint]

Thats just wild............... I never would have expected a factory rifle couldn't handle more than a few thousand rounds before developing serious wear. That's completely crazy! Jeeebus......

Very, very enlightening.

What is a "stuck brass". Does that mean when I go to cycle it wont extract and sticks in chamber?

[Bazoo]

Something comes to mind. A story. A guy had some thumper loads he’d worked up and they were excessive. He contacted a well known gun writer and asked. The gun writer asked have you blown up or broke anything yet? The guy answered no. The gun writer said it’s probably okay then. But it wasn’t long afterwards the guys gun failed and blew up.

I’m not really sure on why sometimes you have pressure signs at x pressure level but not at y pressure level. There are so many factors that affect pressure.

Headspace
Ambient temperature
Primer
Case shape
Throat in the bore
Freebore
Bullet weight
Seating depth
Crimp
Alloy of cast
Lube used
Rifling twist
Powder position in the case
Loading technique
Brass hardness

Would it be safe to pick a mid level load and load it? Maybe. But it’s bad reloading practices.

I was loading 45 auto using wsf. I don’t recall the powder charge. But I started at the starting load. Well. I got a surprise. Heavy recoil and muzzle blast. It was more like a heavy +p load. So I backed off the powder charge and finally settled on about a grain below the minimum in the lyman book. That duplicated factory recoil and muzzle blast. Why? My bullets were only about 9 grains heavier than listed, but were the same exact cast bullet. Could it have been something else, sure. Probably my lot of powder was hotter than what they tested. I was probably using a different primer, though I can’t remember now. But all those little things stacked up so even a starting charge was borderline unsafe.

So my point is, if I’d took the middle road charge there, I would have blown my gun up.

[Bazoo]

Thats just wild............... I never would have expected a factory rifle couldn't handle more than a few thousand rounds before developing serious wear. That's completely crazy! Jeeebus......

Very, very enlightening.

What is a "stuck brass". Does that mean when I go to cycle it wont extract and sticks in chamber?

That’s a couple thousand rounds of slightly over pressure.

Stuck brass is when the brass will not extract and the action won’t budge. It locks the gun up. You resort to using a rubber mallet to try to unlock the gun. Maybe put a brass rod down the bore to dislodge the case. Worse case is that nothing you do will budge it and you have to take it to a gunsmith to remove the brass.

[Mint]

Something comes to mind. A story. A guy had some thumper loads he’d worked up and they were excessive. He contacted a well known gun writer and asked. The gun writer asked have you blown up or broke anything yet? The guy answered no. The gun writer said it’s probably okay then. But it wasn’t long afterwards the guys gun failed and blew up.

I’m not really sure on why sometimes you have pressure signs at x pressure level but not at y pressure level. There are so many factors that affect pressure.

Headspace
Ambient temperature
Primer
Case shape
Throat in the bore
Freebore
Bullet weight
Seating depth
Crimp
Alloy of cast
Lube used
Rifling twist
Powder position in the case
Loading technique
Brass hardness

Would it be safe to pick a mid level load and load it? Maybe. But it’s bad reloading practices.

I was loading 45 auto using wsf. I don’t recall the powder charge. But I started at the starting load. Well. I got a surprise. Heavy recoil and muzzle blast. It was more like a heavy +p load. So I backed off the powder charge and finally settled on about a grain below the minimum in the lyman book. That duplicated factory recoil and muzzle blast. Now that ain’t always the case. Why? My bullets were only about 9 grains heavier than listed, but were the same exact cast bullet. Could it have been something else, sure. Probably my lot of powder was hotter than what they tested. I was probably using a different primer, though I can’t remember now. But all those little things stacked up so even a starting charge was borderline unsafe.

So my point is, if I’d took the middle road charge there, I would have blown my gun up.

Wow..... Ok, you REALLY put that in perspective then. I guess I didn't realize mid level loads were even still dangerous, but that makes sense.

I mean I have a lot of questions, but I don't "need" to even figure it out now, I'm just going to keep loading Start pressure loads.

[Mint]

I wish a book talked more about this stuff... so far Ive read the Lyman manual and it hasn't really said anything about this. It was like 1 sentence of "be careful with max loads, not for beginners"

This higher level stuff though, would be nice to know

[Land Owner]

Recommend you read https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

Start a "Reloading Journal" of your own. Write down and include every "wisdom" you have learned, every failure, every success, everything you tried, every load, include pictures, and targets, leave nothing to chance or memory, which fades. You WILL return again and again and again to your own words in your Journal. You will thank yourself in shorter "reset and recovery times" and remember with even greater success going forward. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. When you have crossed a bridge, write down the journey.

[Mint]

Recommend you read https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?110213-From-Ingot-to-Target-A-Cast-Bullet-Guide-for-Handgunners

Start a "Reloading Journal" of your own. Write down and include every "wisdom" you have learned, every failure, every success, everything you tried, every load, include pictures, and targets, leave nothing to chance or memory, which fades. You WILL return again and again and again to your own words in your Journal. You will thank yourself in shorter "reset and recovery times" and remember with even greater success going forward. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. When you have crossed a bridge, write down the journey.

Thanks, I just bought a log book. Right now I write in a lined notebook but it's not really good enough.

I was sitting here looking out the window thinking... I've often hard pistol calibers are safe to use in rifles. I've never actually had or seen a squib, but there wouldn't be MORE chance of a squib when using a pistol load data in rifle correct? I don't see why there would be I'm just making sure. From what I understand, the chamber is the same, the pressure is the same, and the velocity is the same or greater with the longer barrel.

I have also read its 500-600 fps where squibs usually occur. I dont know if thats accurate or if that applies to multiple calibers.

Do I generally need to worry about squibs if I always use the start load (and not lower)? Ie are they even a slim chance where I should mentally be keeping my mind on that each shot.

[Bazoo]

Yes, squibs can be an issue. For a starting load in 38 or 44 specials, I’d be concerned and check my target to be sure of a bullet hole. Pistol barrels are 4” vs 20”-24” It isn’t just the pressure. It’s the expanding gas that makes the pressure. If you have a light charge of fast powder, and a long barrel, you can run out of expanding gas to drive the bullet forward.

[1hole]

What is a "stuck brass". Does that mean when I go to cycle it wont extract and sticks in chamber?

That's exactly what it means and cases don't have to be welded into the chamber to be "sticky". Any case that doesn't extract easily, i.e., requires uncommon effort, is sticky and sticky isn't good.

The way it works is cases expand when fired but they're elastic and will spring back, at least until the tensile strength of brass is exceeded, then the case expansion becomes permanent. What is often ignored is the chamber also expands and steel has a greater tensile strength than brass. Thus, a fired chamber on the ragged edge of a "KABOOM!" may expand and contract more than the case. if so, the chamber's steel will spring back more than the brass case and the stretched case will then be more or less tightly gripped, meaning the chamber itself is rapidly approaching rupture; loud fire breathing dragons live in those very deep waters, don't knowingly go there.

Trying to gage safe handgun pressures by looking for excess rifle pressure signs is an invitation to disaster.

At their best, handguns are quite wimpy so it seems that pushing past normal velocity limits for a day-dream handgun fight is probably pointless anyway. I believe anyone thinking he might benefit from squeezing out a few more terminal FPS should simply plan to let his target(s) take another step closer.

I remember an old reloader in my gun club being asked by an eager handloading noob how to find the highest possible safe velocity. The old guy told him to "Start loading at book max and keep adding .1 gr. of powder until she blows up, then back off .2 gr."; he knew what he was talking about. And he didn't mention any percentages of anything at all.

[Mint]

That's exactly what it means and cases don't have to be welded into the chamber to be "sticky". Any case that doesn't extract easily, i.e., requires uncommon effort, is sticky and sticky isn't good.

The way it works is cases expand when fired but they're elastic and will spring back, at least until the tensile strength of brass is exceeded, then the case expansion becomes permanent. What is often ignored is the chamber also expands and steel has a greater tensile strength than brass. Thus, a fired chamber on the ragged edge of a "KABOOM!" may expand and contract more than the case. if so, the chamber's steel will spring back more than the brass case and the stretched case will then be more or less tightly gripped, meaning the chamber itself is rapidly approaching rupture; loud fire breathing dragons live in those very deep waters, don't knowingly go there.

Trying to gage safe handgun pressures by looking for excess rifle pressure signs is an invitation to disaster.

At their best, handguns are quite wimpy so it seems that pushing past normal velocity limits for a day-dream handgun fight is probably pointless anyway. I believe anyone thinking he might benefit from squeezing out a few more terminal FPS should simply plan to let his target(s) take another step closer.

I remember an old reloader in my gun club being asked by an eager handloading noob how to find the highest possible safe velocity. The old guy told him to "Start loading at book max and keep adding .1 gr. of powder until she blows up, then back off .2 gr."; he knew what he was talking about. And he didn't mention any percentages of anything at all.

Fantastic information, thanks. I'm writing this stuff down in my book (the bit about stuck cases/ steel tensile strength)

Just to make sure I 100% follow what you mean by this...


meaning the chamber itself is rapidly approaching rupture; loud fire breathing dragons live in those very deep waters, don't knowingly go there.

Based on everything I understand this can even be possible in the middle of a load (between start and max), if bullets are changed, or primers are changed, or the reloading method is a bit off (like in Bazoo 45 example). I must be super vigilant even if using a starting load and always be looking out I suppose.

PS i dont shoot any revolvers, right now its only lever guns with 20-24" barrel

I don't really have a question, I'm just trying to form some kind of ... logical ... framework, when it's safe for me to relax my mind a bit from trying to look for all these signs. That doesn't mean being careless or NOT paying attention, but it's also mentally strenuous trying to remember to look for 20 different things when shooting instead of focusing on actual shooting. As an example, both loads I created for the 357 magnum fired well out of my lever gun from what I gather. No stuck cases, cycled smoothly, velocities were all extremely consistent in both recipes (~1050 fps). On the cases where the bullet was seated too deeply (3 or 4 of them) it increased fps about 20-30 fps. One was 4.5 titegroup and one was 6.0 accurate #5, both with 158 gr lead RNFP. So... given that, at what point can I repeat these forumals and focus more on shooting?

Question: is velocity a good measure of how dangerous something is? ie, if the velocities of my rounds are far away from the velocities listed under a "max" load, is that a signal i can rely on that I'm very likely in a safe range on the high end?

[Mint]

Ok, I suppose what I'm looking for is a formula on "what" to actually do outside of the reloading mechanics. The reloading process is incredibly logical, comprehensive, with excellent safety points on each step. It all makes perfect sense.

But the mindset behind how to approach the load data is completely absent from my mind. Is there a good guide that explains that part?

It feels very much like I don't actually know what I'm doing in that regard. I know I want to shoot it out of a rifle, I know I want a low powered load for target shooting/preserving brass/plinking. I know I want a few medium powered loads for those mornings I wake up feeling spicy and want some good recoil. These are not especially specific or scientific goals.

When I pick a bullet weight, it's sort of what's just recommended for light loads/popular loads. For example on 357 I didnt have any real logic behind my choices for picking 158 other than I saw it mentioned many times as someones favorite plinking bullet. This isn't very scientific. Buying bullets from every grain weight imaginable and testing all of them is not feasible for me (I can shoot once per week with our range.......)

Therefore, I sort of just pick things somewhat arbitrarily, then there is powder. I'm also picking that somewhat arbitrarily based on the speed of burning, favoring faster burning for cleaner shots in lower velocity plinking rounds, and what I see repeated over and over and over consistently. Fine at a "high level" but what about a fine grained level of like.. bullseye vs titegroup which have nearly identical performance from my single test.

When I shot those 2 different loads I made at the range, the velocities were nearly the same. The accuracy seemed to "outshoot" me in both cases, nearly the same. so in that regard I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to observe there. How would I know which to pick?

Overall, it's just all a bit unclear on what to "do" with the results. How would I know if I should switch powder or increase it? (rhetorical question, I know you gave lots of advice here, speaking generally)

I don't expect some big answer to explain all this, that's more why I was hoping there was some kind of chapter in a book or something that explained this from a basic level down to the nuance of it. So far I haven't seen any chapters in these reloading manuals that address the mentality behind the decisions of...

- what to change/when to change it
- what to look for as positive/negative signals (again, you guys have given great advice here, I'm speaking generally though, not ignoring what you said). it feels like a few puzzle pieces in a much greater puzzle
- how to pick your goals to begin with
- how bullet gr ACTUALLY affects your goals and not just simple statements like "BIG BOOLIT MUCH DROP. SMALL BOOLIT MUCH FLAT" I'm not hunting, so I don't care about annhilating rabbits.

[Bazoo]

If you test a load and all is well with it, then load up a few boxes and shoot them for plinking ammo. What to look for? If they seem normal then they are okay and fine for plinking. Accuracy is something to look for. So if you test x and it shoots satisfactory, then load them up for next time. You may load that load for the rest of your life or you may decide it ain’t so great later on and load something else.

Velocity is an indicator. So if you get the expected velocity then you are probably pretty close in pressure. But at the max end, pressure can increase without a proportional increase in velocity.

As far as picking some arbitrary powder and bullet for your test, ain’t that what you do with factory ammo? You just shoot whatever you can find, or choose the cheapest when you find two. I pick a powder by several ways. What do I have? What’s my goals? So if I want plinking loads at the min to med level I’ll pick bullseye. I could use unique for that and it’d work. But unique is better for a medium load to a starting magnum load, so I generally reserve it for that. So out of what I have, I choose what’s best for the application. How do i determine that? Researching the powder and how others use it. What pressure range does it like? Another way is to ask online what powder y’all like for x and if someone says titegroup, I may try it provided I have data that supports it in that application. So there isn’t any real rhyme or reason, not really, if your goal is making decent plinking ammo. Some people avoid powders that don’t flow through a powder measure well. I would.



The bullet weight makes little difference to a goal of cheap plinking ammo. For hunting it does. But the way I pick a bullet is, first, can I find data for it? Second, did I acquire a mould cheap and even though I have no data I am determined to use it?

If you want to make max or closer to max loads, use a bullet for which you have specific data. Reserve bullets for which there is no data for plinking loads.

[Land Owner]

1.) Define goal(s) for yourself.
2.) Purchase a Powder or Bullet Mfg. reloading manual.
3.) Note powder & bullet combinations.
4.) Which components are readily available?
5.) How much are you going to shoot?
6.) This is a cast boolit site, but jacketed bullets work well too.
7.) How much is it going to cost? Can I afford "all I want" or, is there a budget?


A.) My goal - quality rifle ammo for hunting.
B.) Now, I have 17 Loading Manuals, several of which are digital and online.
C.) Rifle calibers, jacketed bullets, and powder choices were made.
D.) Components were purchased before run up in price and downturn in supply.
E.) I shot A LOT of powder-bullet combinations until an acceptable CONFIDENCE in myself, my equipment, my methods, and on-target accuracy in one (1) load for each rifle caliber was achieved.
F.) I shoot lead alloy from revolvers and pistols for self-defense at "across the room" accuracy (i.e. not long range).
G.) I had a budget of no "exorbitant" or "extravagant" purchases. Slowly, purposefully, addictively, over 30+years in this hobby I am invested currently at over $50k in reloading and casting gear, guns, and components, and have sent that much and then some downrange. I expect to recoup most of my investment (that I don't shoot or keep) as the equipment and components are ever increasing in value, their robustness exceeds a single human lifespan, and many components are currently unavailable.

YMMV.

[ulav8r]

As a check on pressure levels above mid-range powder charges, if things seem ok after a few shots and accuracy is acceptable, take a new case and load it with the same formula and load and shoot it at least 20 times. If the case is still in good condition the pressure is most likely acceptable. If the case will not size down properly at the base or the primer pocket is oversize causing loose primers the pressure is definitely too high. If the neck splits after several reloads, it may be excess pressure but it may be because of excessive working of the neck by the dies or expander or excessive crimping or hard brass.

Careful measurement of the new cases after sizing and loading can tell you if the brass is being overworked. Notes will enable you to better determine what is happening. If you have a load that you are ecstatic with but case splits shorten brass life you can consider modifying dies to reduce working of the brass, such as enlarging the interior of the sizing die so the expander just barely opens up the neck for proper bullet seating, or modifying the expander to just barely flare the neck so that crimping does the minimum amount necessary to hold the bullet and stay there through cycling and firing loads. Also remember that perfect can be the enemy of getting to a good, workable solution. For any cartridge you load there could be hundreds of solutions that make useful loads and finding the "perfect" solution would require that you test "EVERY" bullet, powder, primer, and brass available in every possible combination and every acceptable seating depth for up to several hundred times on the better loads to find the best load. Careful study of several load manuals can show the 2 or 3 most likely useful powders to start with, and searching through this, and maybe other forums, can help you reduce the number of primers, brass, and bullets to try. Availability and cost could eliminate some of those choices. If you cast your own bullets or buy commercial, the desired use can help reduce the variety you need to try. Plinking ammo just needs a certain amount of accuracy to be acceptable, trying to cut an acceptable group in half could take ages to accomplish. If you just want to experiment, try as many as you can, but if you want to do a lot of shooting in the field or on the range a good, acceptable load will allow you to go aut and shoot instead of conducting hundreds of more test loads.

[Bazoo]

I don’t particularly like testing loads. I really enjoy loading and casting though.

[Mint]

As a check on pressure levels above mid-range powder charges, if things seem ok after a few shots and accuracy is acceptable, take a new case and load it with the same formula and load and shoot it at least 20 times. If the case is still in good condition the pressure is most likely acceptable. If the case will not size down properly at the base or the primer pocket is oversize causing loose primers the pressure is definitely too high. If the neck splits after several reloads, it may be excess pressure but it may be because of excessive working of the neck by the dies or expander or excessive crimping or hard brass.

Careful measurement of the new cases after sizing and loading can tell you if the brass is being overworked. Notes will enable you to better determine what is happening. If you have a load that you are ecstatic with but case splits shorten brass life you can consider modifying dies to reduce working of the brass, such as enlarging the interior of the sizing die so the expander just barely opens up the neck for proper bullet seating, or modifying the expander to just barely flare the neck so that crimping does the minimum amount necessary to hold the bullet and stay there through cycling and firing loads. Also remember that perfect can be the enemy of getting to a good, workable solution. For any cartridge you load there could be hundreds of solutions that make useful loads and finding the "perfect" solution would require that you test "EVERY" bullet, powder, primer, and brass available in every possible combination and every acceptable seating depth for up to several hundred times on the better loads to find the best load. Careful study of several load manuals can show the 2 or 3 most likely useful powders to start with, and searching through this, and maybe other forums, can help you reduce the number of primers, brass, and bullets to try. Availability and cost could eliminate some of those choices. If you cast your own bullets or buy commercial, the desired use can help reduce the variety you need to try. Plinking ammo just needs a certain amount of accuracy to be acceptable, trying to cut an acceptable group in half could take ages to accomplish. If you just want to experiment, try as many as you can, but if you want to do a lot of shooting in the field or on the range a good, acceptable load will allow you to go aut and shoot instead of conducting hundreds of more test loads.

I had to step away for a moment because the way my mind works, when it gets new information it must follow all the branches all the way down. Generally this is fine, but the last few replies/pms by Bazoo and this one have significantly complicated some things that I previously didn't know were that complicated, and I have had to use 100% of my mental energy programming things for black friday for a client. All the things having to do with measuring, (used case volume, measuring before/after shooting and sizing) are still significantly unclear, but I'm OK with that for now.

Based on a PM I believe it's safe if I swap a lead bullet for another lead bullet of the same weight, if and only if I stay with the start charge for some 44 magnum recipes. I would also be swapping the primer brand (I have CCI Large Pistol). I receive that gun this weekend so I wanted to load up 50 to shoot in it, but I will 100% decide what to do later when my mind isn't occupied, I will definitely post it here first.

[Mint]

I would say one issue I've had is trying to find the same bullets to buy (not cast) that are in the load manuals. Googling always brings up things about the mould itself.

That is mostly why I've had to swap them. So far I have been looking at badmanbullets and missouribulletcompany.

Bazoo mentioned 3 really solid ones but they all seem to be SWC so I don't believe those work in lever guns. That's always but I've been told, but I've never tested that for myself. I do know the RNFP black ones I had fed really nicely and the RNFP red ones which were slightly taller fed OK but less pleasantly. So I suspect this advice is valid.

Anyway just wanted to point out I haven't just skimmed all your input, I just need a bit of time to process it.

[Bazoo]

You should try SWCs before ruling them out. I had a marlin 1894c that fed them just fine. My buddy’s Rossi 92 357 feeds them just fine.

When you get that loadbooks manual, you’ll have data for a pretty large amount of bullets so you’ll be more easily able to find something.

Keep in mind, most people make ammo and they don’t understand pressure at all. They make happy and safe ammo. You can too. It’s just that you can’t substitute the bullet and start in the middle of the data and guarantee it’s going to be safe.

[Bazoo]

Personally o don’t measure the cases before and after firing. If need to substitute bullets, I measure the bullet from the base to the top of the crimp groove so I can find a similar bullet that has data.

[Mint]

Personally o don’t measure the cases before and after firing. If need to substitute bullets, I measure the bullet from the base to the top of the crimp groove so I can find a similar bullet that has data.

you would think this would just be a standard measurement that they would include.... i dont understand why its not written on all these bullet websites. I just attributed it to me not understanding something, but if case volume is that important than i dont understand why its not a bigger priority, given that the COAL can change based on the bullet.

[Land Owner]

COAL is, imho, the last thing you change, after finding a suitable powder and testing slightly increasing charges of that powder to identify the "best" (for you) powder charge for that bullet, chamber, and barrel.

THEN and only then you may wish to increase or decrease COAL in the attempt to identify a bullet jump to lands, or even bullet jamb into lands, that is most compatible with barrel harmonics wringing the last vestige of accuracy you can get from that combination of components.

Reloading and accuracy is an equation in MANY variables. Hobby reloaders do not have the instrumentation to double check chamber pressure. We rely on and stay within the Mfg's load manual powder charge recommendations.

[1hole]

How much die change is "small"? IMHO, small die adjustments require a lot less visible change than many people seem to think.

Our dies are threaded 7/8" in diameter x 14 threads per inch. That means dies change some 71 thousants of an inch per turn or just under 36 thou per half turn and about 9 thou for 1/8 th of a body turn. Thus, 1/8th of a die turn isn't a "small" change my friends, that's a LOT of change even for non-critical things like case crimps! Meaning, as we close in on whatever we want from our dies, our "small" die body adjustments should indeed be small.

I usually make final die body-to-lock ring adjustments by about 1/16th (or .0045" of die body change) in a turn. And sometimes, like when adjusting bottle neck shoulder set back, even that is too much tweaking to do well in just one step.

[Bazoo]

COAL is, imho, the last thing you change, after finding a suitable powder and testing slightly increasing charges of that powder to identify the "best" (for you) powder charge for that bullet, chamber, and barrel.

THEN and only then you may wish to increase or decrease COAL in the attempt to identify a bullet jump to lands, or even bullet jamb into lands, that is most compatible with barrel harmonics wringing the last vestige of accuracy you can get from that combination of components.

Reloading and accuracy is an equation in MANY variables. Hobby reloaders do not have the instrumentation to double check chamber pressure. We rely on and stay within the Mfg's load manual powder charge recommendations.

I agree. But this is for rifle loading for accuracy. For handgun or handgun chambered rifles, you seat to the crimp groove regardless of bullet jump.

[Bazoo]

you would think this would just be a standard measurement that they would include.... i dont understand why its not written on all these bullet websites. I just attributed it to me not understanding something, but if case volume is that important than i dont understand why its not a bigger priority, given that the COAL can change based on the bullet.

The reason it’s not listed in the manual is because it’s only useful if you are needing to substitute bullets. The manual doesn’t recommend swapping bullets. But it’s generally considered safe provided you start at the minimum and work up. I think it should be listed in all manuals and bullet makers websites. Note the lyman manual, it doesn’t suggest “substitute any bullet of the same weight for this data”. The reason it doesn’t is because it may or may not be safe.

One thing you got to understand is that not all cartridges have the same margin of safety when substituting bullets. A 38 special, is much more forgiving because the amount of airspace is more, and the pressure is so low. But 44 mag is not as forgiving because you use a lot more powder and take up a lot more case volume, and the pressure is quite a bit more. So if you load 44 magnum cases with 44 special data, such as you can with 357 cases and 38 spl data, you have a greater margin of safety for a substitution.

When you start in the middle of the data, like you suggested for 44 mag, you are taking a chance. A much bigger chance for 44 mag than for 38 special. Throw in a bullet substitution and it’s a bigger chance still.

Now consider, the bullet substitution might increase pressure, or it might decrease pressure. The only way for you to make an educated guess is for you to have a measurement for and or a bullet with data for you to compare used case volume.

[Mint]

One thing you got to understand is that not all cartridges have the same margin of safety when substituting bullets. A 38 special, is much more forgiving because the amount of airspace is more, and the pressure is so low. But 44 mag is not as forgiving because you use a lot more powder and take up a lot more case volume, and the pressure is quite a bit more

Everything you said makes great sense. Perhaps it hadn't 'dawned' on me yet, as my loads so far are roughly in the 4-6 gr of powder, across both 357 and 44. I haven't ever actually done anything that uses more powder (yet). I havent loaded 44 yet but that's the data I wrote down as the likely one I will

Thanks for your other comments, those make perfect sense. I won't be increasing anything at all now, until I significantly understand all this nuance much more.

[Bazoo]

The lyman book recommends loading starting loads a while until you get a good feel for what you’re doing, before attempting to make heavier loads. Most folks starting out would do well with this advice.

Most folks starting out don’t ask the kind of questions you ask either. Which is good. But you should load starting loads a while and be happy with some cheap plinking ammo. As you refine your loading techniques and learn more about the whys of the technical aspect of loading you will begin to be safe to increase your charges and work up loads including full power loads.

[Mint]

When I read the "24g" of powder in one of the formulas for 44 mag my brain was like "oh hell no"

Thank you Bazoo! I owe you something more than a beer now.... perhaps a box of primers

[Bazoo]

Here’s a little visual I did for you.

Same bullet, data from the loadbook manuals is lyman.

3.0 bullseye powder, just above minimum for 38 special.
https://i.postimg.cc/HLT14tg0/B4-B28257-068-F-4-C31-80-A3-82-D60-A376-C33.jpg (https://postimg.cc/fVqPMmkk)

Here is 15 IMR4227, just below max 357 magnum.
https://i.postimg.cc/Dz5kCbv9/95756683-0-B90-43-CC-9312-AD407-A9-FEE7-A.jpg (https://postimg.cc/d77x33T6)

Here is the powder in 38 and 357 cases respectively.
https://i.postimg.cc/kGH7TRcJ/07780-BC7-516-E-44-FA-80-CF-E720-B7725572.jpg (https://postimg.cc/WqMR33CC)

Note how the 38 special there would probably be 3/16” of air space below the bullet, whereas the 357 magnum would be touching or nearly touching the bullet base.

Now you can see a little why 38 special starting loads will lend itself to safely substituting bullets whereas 357 might not, especially above the starting load. 44 special and magnum is the same just larger.

[Bazoo]

When I read the "24g" of powder in one of the formulas for 44 mag my brain was like "oh hell no"

Thank you Bazoo! I owe you something more than a beer now.... perhaps a box of primers
Make it a brick and we’ll call it square!

[Mint]

Make it a brick and we’ll call it square!

Ha, that's actually what I meant :-o

I'm not trying to be dense here (sorry if I'm missing the point, I've been extremely mentally drained from my work and not super sharp at the moment).

The example might be slightly confusing to me because you used the max charge in the 357 instead of a comparative start charge in the 38 for a comparison.

When you say "its safe to use start loads generally, if you are swapping bullets"... are you talking about 44 mag start loads, or were you actually meaning go all the way down to the 44 spl equivalent start.

I was under the impression you meant start load of 44 mag would be safe with a bullet swap.

This is what I was (tentatively!) planning to do was 4.7gr of Titegroup in a 44 magnum case, with a swapped bullet... a 240gr lead bullet RNFP.

NOte: also primer swap, CCI Large Pistol Primers

https://i.imgur.com/Y4pUURZ.png

Likewise I was tentatively planning on trying a 200 gr lead RNFP with this, 5.0gr Titegroup:

https://i.imgur.com/xPfXebA.png

[Bazoo]

357 magnum cases

IMR4227
11.4 the start and 15 grains just below max.

https://i.postimg.cc/YSmFFSZY/F0-C9-EECB-8-E68-4651-853-C-63821107-B17-E.jpg (https://postimg.cc/4KsnkXJx)

[Bazoo]

“When you say "its safe to use start loads generally, if you are swapping bullets"... are you talking about 44 mag start loads, or were you actually meaning go all the way down to the 44 spl equivalent start.”

Generally means most of the time but not all the time. I’ve said repeatedly, you need to measure the used case volume of the bullet you have and compare it to a bullet for which there is data.

If you use data that says lswc and use that to swap in a bullet of the same weight, you have no idea how much case volume their lswc used. If their bullet happens to be less case volume and yours more case volume, then it will raise pressures. A starting load likely would still be safe in 44 mag for example. But a middle range load might become a maximum load.

[Bazoo]

https://i.postimg.cc/T3RMhkNX/1-A289-A45-A8-BB-4-F51-8-C47-7845-F8672-D19.jpg (https://postimg.cc/JGdd2QWT)

These bullets weigh within 5 grains of each other. See how much difference there is in used case volume?

These are both 44 bullets. 44-250-k, and 432-265-RF. And though the number of the first lists 250 grains it weighs 265. The other weighs 270. The point is, don’t blindly swap bullets. Do the research needed.

[Bazoo]

Ha, that's actually what I meant :-o

I'm not trying to be dense here (sorry if I'm missing the point, I've been extremely mentally drained from my work and not super sharp at the moment).

The example might be slightly confusing to me because you used the max charge in the 357 instead of a comparative start charge in the 38 for a comparison.

When you say "its safe to use start loads generally, if you are swapping bullets"... are you talking about 44 mag start loads, or were you actually meaning go all the way down to the 44 spl equivalent start.

I was under the impression you meant start load of 44 mag would be safe with a bullet swap.

This is what I was (tentatively!) planning to do was 4.7gr of Titegroup in a 44 magnum case, with a swapped bullet... a 240gr lead bullet RNFP.

NOte: also primer swap, CCI Large Pistol Primers

https://i.imgur.com/Y4pUURZ.png

Likewise I was tentatively planning on trying a 200 gr lead RNFP with this, 5.0gr Titegroup:

https://i.imgur.com/xPfXebA.png

The data you show looks like 44 special starting loads in magnum cases. At the 11k psi range, and with titegroup, I’d be comfortable swapping bullets with nothing other than weight as a reference.

But I would not be comfortable swapping bullets at 44 magnum starting levels and 4227 powder.

[Mint]

The data you show looks like 44 special starting loads in magnum cases.

AHHHHHHHHH, no wonder. Damn I was like losing my mind thinking I was crazy

When I say "44 mag starting load" im literally just putting 44 magnum into the load data and looking at the "start"

it didnt occur to me they might be SHOWING 44 spl weight data but under the 44 magnum section

What you see in those images on hodgdon was 100% from selecting "44 magnum" under the rifle section

[Mint]

But OK, thank you. :drinks:

I will stop there on a good note, before I drive anyone crazy

[Land Owner]

I agree. But this is for rifle loading for accuracy. For handgun or handgun chambered rifles, you seat to the crimp groove regardless of bullet jump.

Yes. Yes. Yes. You are correct. I "got lost" in the moment that the OP is reloading handgun cases, at present.

[Land Owner]

306709 (https://postimg.cc/JGdd2QWT)

These [44 cal] bullets weigh within 5 grains of each other. See how much difference there is in used case volume?

Took me a second wondering why the two boolits pictured were not aligned base-to-base, then it dawned on me...

You have them pictured at a common benchmark - their Crimp Groove. From that reference line the difference in their case embedment lengths is observable, and thus more (or less) case volume is imaginable. Nice...

[Mint]

Hey,

So I just tried my first few 44 magnum rounds (stopped at powder stage)

First note, I used a ram primer per suggestions here. SO much better. It felt significantly more accurate, more safe, at the cost only of a fraction of speed.

Second note... this is where I'm not quite sure. When I used an NOE expander plug (.431x.427) inside Lee expander die, I noticed it was *significantly* harder on the upstroke to "unstick" it. I noticed this mildly on .357 but it didn't seem out of the ordinary. On 44 mag it was hard enough where I feel like if I did 500 rounds the screws holding the press in, or my workbench, or something is going to get loose. I looked closely at the expansion on the neck and the bullet sat in only maybe 1/16" ... so I don't think I had it screwed down too far. The neck wasn't even warped enough where I could see it with my own eye really.

So my first question is... does ^ this sound right?

My second question is, I noticed RIGHT at the bottom of the downstroke, for the last maybe 10% of the stroke I would feel resistance... but instead of a sensation like I might expect... perhaps similar to sizing (where it brass is being "shaped" with resistance force) instead the sensation was more like the sensation of leverage, or a lever... as in it would offer a very smooth resistance that would start strong and decrease. I was wondering if this was also OK or did I screw it in too far/not far enough. I suspect maybe it's from the plug's movement up and down in there, but I couldn't get a good look.

Thanks

[Mint]

As far as the NOE expander, I know the 1st number is bell diameter, and 2nd number (.427) is neck tension. my question is... for the neck tension, is it actually making the neck SMALLER than the sized brass diameter, and the bell BIGGER (like this diagram I made)?

I'm asking because I'm looking at the spec diagram in the load manual for 44 and it seems kind of weird. It says that its .432 and .456 diameters but the bell diameter first number from NOE plug isn't even larger than that in this diagram.

https://i.imgur.com/vRMsdcx.png

[jetinteriorguy]

To help ease the sticking take some Flitz and a cloth polishing wheel in a drill or Dremel and polish the plug. Sometimes this will really help a lot and sometimes just a bit. You could dip your case necks in some motor mica too if you don’t mind fiddling with an extra little step. I’m also curious if you wet tumble with stainless pins, I’ve heard that can cause the sticking too. I wet tumble everything now but no pins, I don’t care if the primer pocket is spotless and I prefer to leave the carbon in the neck to eliminate the need to lube the necks in rifle brass.

[Mint]

To help ease the sticking take some Flitz and a cloth polishing wheel in a drill or Dremel and polish the plug. Sometimes this will really help a lot and sometimes just a bit. You could dip your case necks in some motor mica too if you don’t mind fiddling with an extra little step. I’m also curious if you wet tumble with stainless pins, I’ve heard that can cause the sticking too. I wet tumble everything now but no pins, I don’t care if the primer pocket is spotless and I prefer to leave the carbon in the neck to eliminate the need to lube the necks in rifle brass.

Ah ok so this sounds like the same case with the sizing die where I should probably use some flour then. Right now i dont own a tumbler as Ive just started but I plan to wet tumble. i actually have flitz i can do that as well

[Bazoo]

I like .002 neck tension. I’ve found that any more, .003, cases the bullet base to swage when seated.

No the die isn’t making the brass smaller. The sizing die makes the outside smaller than needed so that the belling die can open them all exactly the same. This compensates for variation in brass thickness between brands of brass and lot numbers.

[Mint]

I like .002 neck tension. I’ve found that any more, .003, cases the bullet base to swage when seated.

No the die isn’t making the brass smaller. The sizing die makes the outside smaller than needed so that the belling die can open them all exactly the same. This compensates for variation in brass thickness between brands of brass and lot numbers.

Ok I suspected that might be the case (so many reloading puns I can't even avoid them now). So what you're saying is that actually the sizing die makes the diameter smaller such that the expanding plug can make it bigger at 2 different levels, at the neck and at the mouth.

Regarding .002 neck tension, he doesnt have any more of those in stock so I was forced to go with .003. He also never replied to my email so I guess I'm stuck with this for awhile.

[Mint]

I have found this BHN info on another forum showing the ideal pressure of the load for obturation.

I tried googling a more official chart and noticed it puts the same pressures but under "max pressure", so now I am wondering is the pressure listed the pressure of the load I'm shooting for (sorry please STOP with puns, im truly trying) , or something else?

Edit: I found this and it seems to be correct: https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

I suppose its better to go softer rather than harder if it's somewhere in the middle...



• BHN= 9 Desperado Bullets (uncoated)

• BHN= 9 Ringer Bullets (Hi-Tek) by Special Order

• BHN=10 Big Lube Bullets, Outlaw Bullets, Stateline Bullets

• BHN=12 Missouri Bullets

• BHN=13 Bear Creek Supply

• BHN=14 Gallant Bullets

• BHN=16 Acme, Badman, Bayou, Chey-Cast, Scarlett, SNS, Stateline

• BHN=18 Falcon Bullets, Missouri Bullets

• BHN=19 Cast Performance

• BHN=24 Oregon Trail laser cast
• BHN= 9 is 11,518 psi

• BHN=10 is 12,798 psi

• BHN=12 is 15,358 psi

• BHN=13 is 16,637 psi

• BHN=14 is 17,917 psi

• BHN=16 is 20,477 psi

• BHN=18 is 23,036 psi

• BHN=19 is 24,316 psi

• BHN=24 is 30,715 psi

[Bazoo]

If you had RCBS dies, they would send you the cowboy expander and then you’d have .428 expander plug. Perfect for .430 diameter bullets. I use Noe expanders some. But I prefer RCBS plugs when I can get them to work because they are longer. It means a longer bullet will seat.

[Mint]

So after doing 44, I went back and looked at the 357 bullets earlier in this thread (with the blue arrow).

I suppose it's a bit tricky at first to figure out the crimp groove. In the case of the 357 theres a ridge before it (the forward driving band)... but then on these 44 magnum there are no forward driving bands, they're behind the crimp groove.

is there any foolproof way to 100% be sure which is the crimp groove?

My guess is... the groove HAS to have an "overhang" on the side of the groove on the closest to the bullet nose. If it goes "in" but not back "out" then its not a crimp groove. Meaning =\/== rather than =\__.

Is that correct?

[Winger Ed.]

Most crimp grooves will have an angle cut going up into the groove from the base, then a sharp 90 degree edge on the top end of it.
They're cut that way so a roll crimp should lay right down on the bevel part in the groove.

Lay out, or make a dummy round-
the crimp groove should line up pretty close, or within tolerance for the OAL listed for that boolit in that case.

Since you're doing .357s- you might also get off into .38Special.
When you go to use the 148-ish grain wadcutters---for either or both---- wear a hat.
You're going to be doing a lot of head scratching over crimp grooves when you get into them.:bigsmyl2:

[Land Owner]

I have been on Castboolits for some time and have not seen the BHN's expressed in post #111 nor would I assign definitive pressures to BHN's. There is so much you are overthinking in all of this.

Make an alloy of lead.
Cast some boolits. Air quench some. Water quench some.
Load some of each. Start low on the powder Mfg's recipe.
Use the "Pencil Test" for relative BHN if you must.
Shoot some.
Have some FUN.
You can over analyze when you get back from the range with a smile on your face.

[Mint]

I have been on Castboolits for some time and have not seen the BHN's expressed in post #111 nor would I assign definitive pressures to BHN's. There is so much you are overthinking in all of this.

Make an alloy of lead.
Cast some boolits. Air quench some. Water quench some.
Load some of each. Start low on the powder Mfg's recipe.
Use the "Pencil Test" for relative BHN if you must.
Shoot some.
Have some FUN.
You can over analyze when you get back from the range with a smile on your face.

Curiosity and analysis is so deeply within me it feels like it's in my DNA. It's an enjoyable process for me, and doesn't mean I'm overthinking anything. Surface level understandings of the way things are has never been my MO, regardless of hobby (options trading, programming, painting/drawing, etc etc). I'm able to separate my curiosity though from what is practical, even if it doesn't look like it.

For example... yesterday I loaded my first 44 mag and took them to the range and had an absolute blast :) It was literally probably one of my funnest times ever shooting. It was the first time shooting that gun, and it was my first time shooting 44 mag, as well as my first time reloading 44 mag. All three firsts aligned on a perfect range trip.

BTW I confirmed the BHN PSI numbers by this page, so it seems they're correct. But please tell me your thoughts, you guys are the experts. https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

It's more simply expressed by this formula according to that article, so no real table or chart is needed except this from what it sounds like:

Optimum BHN = PSI / (1422 x .90)


https://i.imgur.com/oOZuzyZ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qyVkMdQ.jpg

[Mint]

Most crimp grooves will have an angle cut going up into the groove from the base, then a sharp 90 degree edge on the top end of it.
They're cut that way so a roll crimp should lay right down on the bevel part in the groove.

Lay out, or make a dummy round-
the crimp groove should line up pretty close, or within tolerance for the OAL listed for that boolit in that case.

Since you're doing .357s- you might also get off into .38Special.
When you go to use the 148-ish grain wadcutters---for either or both---- wear a hat.
You're going to be doing a lot of head scratching over crimp grooves when you get into them.:bigsmyl2:

OH great point about the OAL. duh, I didn't even think of that.

Funny you mention 148 gr wadcutters, that's literally some of the boolits I was looking at when thinking "hmmmmm....". Also these..... what the hell.

These seem to not be for lever guns so maybe they're just not intended to be crimped.

https://i.imgur.com/3q15RGx.png

[Bazoo]

The red bullet is for a case that gets taper crimped. Such as 45 auto. Taper crimp doesn’t require a crimp groove or cannelure.

Some bullets are designed to crimp over the forward driving bands and have no crimp groove. Those are less common. The fool proof way is to only buy bullets with a crimp groove. I prefer to seat
and crimp in the same step and that means using bullets with a crimp groove. A big grip groove here makes combining the operations go smoother.

Bullet hardness is only one factor that needs to be considered when matching an alloy bullet to a specific pressure. Alloy toughness is less talked about but is as important.

I have found wheel weight alloy to be sufficient up to and including full bore 357 magnum. Even though some would say it isn’t sufficient for that pressure. My own experience says otherwise.

I’ve found half wheel weight and half soft lead to be fine for 44 special, but leaded in my 45 auto. Why? I’m not sure. I don’t think my pressure was much of any higher in the 45. But there is a lot more going on than just pressure x = velocity y.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf
This is written by a member here. It contains lots of interesting info on cast bullets.

[David2011]

When I use lee dippers, what if you want some weight in between what the 2 scoops are, do you need to use one of each scoop (so youre holding multiple ones in your hand)? Isnt that more error prone?


One way to adjust the volume of a Lee dipper is to put a dab of hot glue in it. It’s easily adjusted or removed later. For a more permanent change, some 15 minute or slower epoxy can be put in the dipper. I’m not a fan of 5 minute because it doesn’t get as hard as the slower versions. It can be adjusted with a drill bit turned by hand.

The epoxy opinion is based on 50 years of RC airplane building.

[Bazoo]

Personally, I like dippers. They are so simple. I use lee dippers if they hit the amount I want to use. But rarely they do. And since it’s so much faster to use a powder measure, I generally do that. But I’ve loaded a bunch with the dippers none the less.

[Land Owner]

There is "so much" left unsaid or that is incomplete in the Missouri Bullet Company discussion with regard to barrel leading and the "formula" for hardness. You CANNOT simply hang your hat on those statements and those alone or that formula for the following reasons:

ONE.)
the purpose of generating pressure in the cartridge case is to force the bullet out of the case mouth and on down the barrel
says nothing of the sympathetic harmonics of a steel barrel and the powder pressure spike. The bore, a tube, expands and contracts as high frequency waves cascade from chamber to muzzle and back. We try to get the right boolit "fit" to the bore, the right lube, and the right powder charge for a specific hardness to place the boolit at precisely the height or depth (idk which) of a pressure node as it leaves the barrel. The last thing that touches the boolit is the muzzle.

TWO.)
Properly obturated, the base will have expanded beyond its original diameter which has the effect of “sealing the bore” against the explosive pressure of the gases burning behind it. Properly sealed, and working in conjunction with the lubricant in the lube groove, the bullet will thus not allow gases to escape forward from around the base of the bullets, which prevents it from shaving lead from the bullet body and forcing it into the bore grooves (otherwise known as “leading”.)
Gas cutting happens from the moment of hot gas ignition, as the case is slammed hard against the chamber walls, and before the boolit has overcome its own inertia against forward movement. When the boolit is forced into the lands and grooves there is a momentary rise in both resistance and hot gas pressure, obturating the base, and forcing the boolit into the bore.

TWO A.) You can push boolits too fast and strip lead by shearing.

TWO B.) Stress concentrations in screwing the barrel to the receiver and irregularities in the bore can strip lead.

THREE.)
The PSI of your reloads is published in the reloading manuals.
It absolutely IS NOT! The PSI of their TEST CHAMBER and BARREL is in their reloading manuals. All you have is an educated GUESS, close to the pin, with regard to your barrel and chamber pressure.

FOUR.)
For this application – shooting a 200-grain LSWC at 900 FPS requires that you use a bullet with a BHN of 16 to 18 (round upwards a couple of BHN points for flexibility.)
That "exact science" is TOTALLY out the window and leaves the reader to pick and choose something from 16 to 20 BHN. Real exact there...like 16 places to the right of the decimal point - NOT.

There is nothing wrong with experimentation. It is what we do. We experiment with a.) case prep, b.) primer, c.) powder, d.) mold, e.) boolit embedment, f.) jump to lands, g.) grip, h.) lube, i.) boolit sizing, and j.) alloy hardness, to name a few.

Leading does not go away because we calculate alloy hardness from a formula.

[Mint]

There is "so much" left unsaid or that is incomplete in the Missouri Bullet Company discussion with regard to barrel leading and the "formula" for hardness. You CANNOT simply hang your hat on those statements and those alone or that formula for the following reasons:

ONE.)
says nothing of the sympathetic harmonics of a steel barrel and the powder pressure spike. The bore, a tube, expands and contracts as high frequency waves cascade from chamber to muzzle and back. We try to get the right boolit "fit" to the bore, the right lube, and the right powder charge for a specific hardness to place the boolit at precisely the height or depth (idk which) of a pressure node as it leaves the barrel. The last thing that touches the boolit is the muzzle.

TWO.)
Gas cutting happens from the moment of hot gas ignition, as the case is slammed hard against the chamber walls, and before the boolit has overcome its own inertia against forward movement. When the boolit is forced into the lands and grooves there is a momentary rise in both resistance and hot gas pressure, obturating the base, and forcing the boolit into the bore.

TWO A.) You can push boolits too fast and strip lead by shearing.

TWO B.) Stress concentrations in screwing the barrel to the receiver and irregularities in the bore can strip lead.

THREE.)
It absolutely IS NOT! The PSI of their TEST CHAMBER and BARREL is in their reloading manuals. All you have is an educated GUESS, close to the pin, with regard to your barrel and chamber pressure.

FOUR.)
That "exact science" is TOTALLY out the window and leaves the reader to pick and choose something from 16 to 20 BHN. Real exact there...like 16 places to the right of the decimal point - NOT.

There is nothing wrong with experimentation. It is what we do. We experiment with a.) case prep, b.) primer, c.) powder, d.) mold, e.) boolit embedment, f.) jump to lands, g.) grip, h.) lube, i.) boolit sizing, and j.) alloy hardness, to name a few.

Leading does not go away because we calculate alloy hardness from a formula.

These are the posts I come here for :D

So I suppose the simple question is, is there a sort of generic way to know which hardness I need, that is more general at the expense of being super accurate? Ie, based on the principle that an educated guess is better than a random guess?

I ask because of all the BHN's available when I buy bullets. Up until now I have only bought 16, and shoot them at 900 - 1200 fps

[Bazoo]

I’d go 12 bhn for all your needs. If I’m not mistaken Missouri offers 12 and 18. But a 12 bhn is better balanced to lower pressure up to 357 and 44 magnum. A 18 bhn would be closer to what’s needed for 454 and up.