Quick question, paper cartridges for rifles.

[armoredman]

I was toying with the idea of making 54 caliber paper cartridges for my 54 TC Renegade and son's 54 Kit Carson. I have some nitrating solution now thanks to an excellent member, but was curious if anyone has a good way to actually make/carry/use them?

[omgb]

Paper cartridges were sold in wooden blocks bored out to fit the cartridge and the bullet. They were dumped out one at a time as needed.

[Sasquatch-1]

If you want something for the range, I would drill out 2x4 to fit. If you want something to carry on your belt check out Etsy for designs and get a cheap bag of leather scraps form Hobby Lobby and try making one. The ones I saw on Etsy were a bit pricey.

[dave951]

I shoot a '63 Sharps carbine in competition and use paper cartridges. I have a repop Sharps cartridge box that I use on my belt to carry my competition ammo load out.

My cartridges are made from simple copier paper sized to make 3 turns per tube and a diameter to slip fit onto the heel of the bullet. I use hair curler paper to make the base of the tube. Insert powder, put a card wad on top of the powder with a dot of glue to keep the powder on the base, glue the bullet on the open end. No nitrating needed, they shatter and blow out with each round shot. As for your T/C, you might experience ignition problems since the flash channel enters from the side. A Sharps enters on the base of the chamber.

One other thing, in a Sharps, there is air space in the base of the falling block by design and there is air space between the powder and bullet. There is no filler needed. This is one of the anomalies in the "no airspace" thing with black powder. But what would I know on these-

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[dave951]

Instead of a paper cartridge, consider a cartridge like we use in musket competition in the N-SSA. Tube contains the powder. Bullet acts as a "stopper". If using a conical, insert the bullet nose first and dip lube the exposed base. To load, just pop the bullet, pour the powder, ram bullet as normal, cap, aim, fire.

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[LAGS]

I use to make paper tubes for pre measured charges of powder.
That way I would just tear the end open and pour the powder down the barrel.
I also just shoved the paper tube down the bore over the powder then loaded the ball.
The paper tube acted as an overpower Wad.
Nitrating the paper tubes might make them work better , as they will burn up when you fire the rifle.
Adding the ball in the paper tube might be interesting like civil war type ammo.
But you are correct about the Pattent type breech on a TC and many others.
If you tried to fire just a complete Paper Cartridges.
You would have to dump about 5 grains of powder down the bore to fill up that air gap between the cartridge and the primer.
But that would work and speed up loading.

[armoredman]

I like those N-SSA tubes, great idea. Where could I find those?

[pietro]

I like those N-SSA tubes, great idea. Where could I find those?


If you google ".54 muzzleloader speed loaders", you'll find a lot of options.

The fastest are the tube-type speed loaders that mount the bullet in one end with it's base exposed 1/8" (to start in the bore) and a cap over the other end.

In use, after the speed loader is loaded, one uncaps the powder end to drop the powder downbore, then flipped over end-for-end to start the bullet.

They work for both conicals and PRB's (patched round balls).

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1763320998

.

[charlie b]

When I hunted I used the plastic ones that had a starter ram as part of the setup. Open cap, pour powder. Place speed loader on muzzle and hit the end with your hand. Then use ramrod. The plastic cap had a spot for a cap so it was all in one.

These days I use paper patched bullets so that could be incorporated in the paper cartridge as well. Just drop the whole thing in the bore.

[yeahbub]

IIRC, the flash channel in the TC patent breech has two corners to go around before it enters the barrel, nipple-to-lateral passage and lateral-to-bore passage. The CVA traditional designs are of similar configuration. With loose powder, this is no problem since powder enters the channel when poured in, and when the ball is seated, the air rushing out the nipple takes powder with it, thus, the powder is at the nipple and gets the flash with certainty. With a paper cartridge, the cap flash will have a long way to go before it reaches the cartridge, cooling and losing force significantly along the way and particularly when going around the corners. This is why rifles intended to be loaded with the OP's proposed paper cartridges which have long flash channels are generally equipped with nipples for musket caps, so the flash can reach and penetrate the paper. Having experimented with this some years ago, I was able to get better reliability by anointing the end of the cartridge with collodion (any old smokeless dissolved in acetone, to act as a flammable glue) and dipping it in BP, so I would have a readily ignitable surface for what remained of the flash. It worked, but I also had serious misgivings about the possibility of smoldering embers I could not detect, and the though of running another 80gr cartridge and ball down the bore with my face and hands that close to the muzzle was a complete show-stopper. I used the rest of them, but resorted to wet-patch cleaning between shots like CW cannon crews did to ensure my safety. Dave951 and LAGS both have the better answers as worked out generations ago. I had tried these, but I later began to use plastic sample vials with a threaded top and found them to be not only their equal timewise, but reusable to boot. True, there's a slight time cost to using either, but safety is a paramount concern and the use of combustible cartridges provides only a scant gain while creating a hazardous risk of pre-ignition and grievous injury.

Of the various methods, the use of papers nitrated with potassium nitrate present the greatest risk of smoldering remains. Better is the use of flash paper as used in magic shows, which is about 80% converted from cellulose to nitro-cellulose (same beginning process as making smokeless powder) which burns completely and leaves no embers. The simplest and cheapest safe method is to use plain "perm papers" available at hair salon supply places, about $4/1000 sheets. They are just over .001 thick, surprisingly durable and are readily consumed by the burning powder charge. Sometimes not all of it burns up, but it never smolders that I have seen and has never gotten in the way of reloading the chamber. I use these untreated for paper cartridges in C&B revolvers and they work very satisfactorily, making reloading a revolver in the field easy and quick.

[LAGS]

You brought up an interesting point about Safety.
I always damp swab the bore on my rifles to prevent flashes when I go to reload.
I have never had powder flash when reloading.
But have seen it happen for others several times.
Using any kind of paper down the bore increases the chance of some smoldering flakes that can ignite the powder when you reload.
I just use a damp cotton shotgun mop or a damp patch after each shot.
Others think I am just trying to swab out powder fouling to make loading easier or retain accuracy.
But to me , Safety comes First.
I would rather spend a couple seconds more doing a reload , then to spend hours in the hospital.

[dave951]

I've shot literally hundreds of thousands of black powder rounds over the years. I don't wipe between shots unless it's patch round ball. I also don't put paper down the bore of a muzzleloader. When you're shooting minies that are properly set up, wiping is not necessary because the minie system as designed was set up to eliminate it.

[yeahbub]

LAGS wrote,
I would rather spend a couple seconds more doing a reload , then to spend hours in the hospital. Amen! I need to keep my eyes and hands. The traditional [paper cartridges where the paper is an over-powder wad has no risk that I'm aware of, since it is ejected on firing, but damp-swabbing is a help in more ways than just for safety in my experience, particularly when using hunting lubes on the patch. Bore butter and 1000 Plus are a bear to load second and third shots when practicing for hunting season. I've got to come up with a better lube for that. . . . .

Dave951, are you dipping those cartridges in beeswax? BTW, what are you lubing those Minies with?

[dave951]

The paper cartridges for the Sharps are just that, rolled copier paper. No nitrating needed and that is based on experimentation. With the cartridge done with just 3 wraps, it shatters on ignition and blows completely out the barrel. They are not dipped in anything. The bullet is lubed with a small brush to put the lube in just the grooves only. Dipping the bullet is a quick way to a flyer.

For musket cartridges, in the N-SSA we use a plastic tube. Powder is put into the tube and the bullet is inserted into the open end nose first. Then we dip lube the rings on the minie, done and ready. As for lube, ask 10 skirmishers, get 14 answers. For muskets generally, I use beeswax/lard 50/50 with about a teaspoon of lanolin.

These are 50cal tubes loaded, lubed and ready. The bullet is a minie design derived from an original Enfield design for pistols. Seems to work pretty good in a round ball gun. The idea is to have a gallery load for the Scouts to shoot without having to resort to the commotion around a loading table.
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For a gallery load, 50yd from my sewerpipe on a stick. I fired 16 shots straight with no wiping (oh my!). Yup, the gun was getting hot. Then I shot a 6 shot group. This is an extreme test but it proves this bullet/load works.
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I guess my Sharps loads work.
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And maybe my musket loads and oh horrors, no wiping.
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