Had a dud in the Type 99 Arisaka with handloads

[Dutchman]

I didn't hear a "bang" but the primer was hit and the bullet lodged in the bore just ahead of the chamber. Obviously there was powder, some powder. I haven't searched the empties yet to ascertain any anomaly. There should be some tell-tale evidence on the fired case. Powder charge was 21 grs 2400. For small lots like this I'm usually very careful about powder and visually check after charging the case.

https://images14.fotki.com/v1676/photos/4/28344/9895637/IMG_0503-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/img-0503.html)

https://images14.fotki.com/v1676/photos/4/28344/9895637/IMG_0493-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/img-0493.html)

https://images20.fotki.com/v1678/photos/4/28344/9895637/IMG_0492-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/img-0492.html)

https://images15.fotki.com/v1674/photos/4/28344/9895637/IMG_0491-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/firearms/img-0491.html)

And to illustrate how absent minded I can be.... These 7.7x58mm were loaded to touch the rifling. Notice the ones on the right are much longer. Too long for the magazine but I didn't notice until I was at the range trying to load them into the magazine. They fired fine but I had to single load them. 314299. Duhhhh!

https://images49.fotki.com/v1679/photos/4/28344/16487259/20201117_210951-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/arisaka/20201117-210951.html)

[BJung]

Nice to hear of another Californian that shoots an Arisaka. I can't get my bullets jacketed bullets to touch the rifling in my T99

[The Dar]

Something plugging the flash hole on the dud perhaps? Tumbling media?

[pworley1]

Sometimes 2400 is hard to light.

[dondiego]

Do you wet tumble your brass?

[Dutchman]

Do you wet tumble your brass?

The brass hadn't been tumbled. I don't tumble everything.

Dutch

[Three44s]

Could the boolit lube have melted and ran into the powder?

Three44s

[earlmck]

I'm guessing you had a very weak primer that didn't ignite the powder. I've had a couple instances where a standard primer failed to ignite a ball powder and the force of the primer drove the bullet far enough into the barrel to engage the rifling. Your bullet doesn't appear to have been driven much past the case mouth. That's gotta' be a real puny primer.

[Winger Ed.]

Could the boolit lube have melted and ran into the powder?

I've had that happen with soft lubed boolits that had been out in some pretty hot summer days.
Mine was with in .38Spec. and Unique.
The boolit went out of the barrel, but just barely.

In a rifle, it probably wouldn't have made it all the way out.

[405grain]

Dutchman: This one's got me scratching my head. 2400 is pretty easy to ignite, and even if some of the powder got bullet lube on it there should still have been plenty of Oomph to push that bullet down the bore. Other posters have made some good suggestions about what might be going on, so I'll make a few off the wall odd-ball suggestions for amusement purposes if nothing else. The first bit of useless advise is; have you cleaned the fire control group? Sometimes grease or gummed up crud inside the bolt can make firing pin strikes light. Look at your spent brass and see if the firing pin dents in the primers look OK. If you haven't already, pull the firing pin out of the bolt and make sure that the bolt shroud/firing pin/ spring aren't gummed up with crud. Check that the inside of the bolt body is clean too. Run a toothpick through the firing pin hole on the bolt to make sure that its clean too. After everything's clean, a VERY light amount of oil can be used to slick things up.

The second bit of semi-useless advise: When you were reloading did you touch any of the primers while you had case lube or bullet lube on your hands? Even a trace of lube could deactivate the explosive charge in a primer. An even more minuscule amount of lube could deactivate a "portion" of the primer charge, leaving you with a weak primer. There's always the possibility that the rifle's fine, and it was just a manufacturing defect with the primer. If all the other cartridges in your lot are fine, this is very odd. Usually a total failure like this only happens when you have "the buck of a lifetime" in your sights. [smilie=s:

[Dutchman]

Could the boolit lube have melted and ran into the powder?

Three44s

No, mostly for the reason that all the lube grooves were contained within the neck tightly. No way for lube to go anywhere.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

I'm guessing you had a very weak primer that didn't ignite the powder. I've had a couple instances where a standard primer failed to ignite a ball powder and the force of the primer drove the bullet far enough into the barrel to engage the rifling. Your bullet doesn't appear to have been driven much past the case mouth. That's gotta' be a real puny primer.

Remember this was an Arisaka with Metford-type rifling. You can't really see where the rifling engaged on this bullet but its there. I had to use a steel rod to knock it out.

Can't say impossible to a weak primer. I have about 15 more rds still loaded that I'll shoot soon. These were loaded last year.

Dutch

Dutch

[Dutchman]

Dutchman: This one's got me scratching my head. 2400 is pretty easy to ignite, and even if some of the powder got bullet lube on it there should still have been plenty of Oomph to push that bullet down the bore. Other posters have made some good suggestions about what might be going on, so I'll make a few off the wall odd-ball suggestions for amusement purposes if nothing else. The first bit of useless advise is; have you cleaned the fire control group? Sometimes grease or gummed up crud inside the bolt can make firing pin strikes light. Look at your spent brass and see if the firing pin dents in the primers look OK. If you haven't already, pull the firing pin out of the bolt and make sure that the bolt shroud/firing pin/ spring aren't gummed up with crud. Check that the inside of the bolt body is clean too. Run a toothpick through the firing pin hole on the bolt to make sure that its clean too. After everything's clean, a VERY light amount of oil can be used to slick things up.

The second bit of semi-useless advise: When you were reloading did you touch any of the primers while you had case lube or bullet lube on your hands? Even a trace of lube could deactivate the explosive charge in a primer. An even more minuscule amount of lube could deactivate a "portion" of the primer charge, leaving you with a weak primer. There's always the possibility that the rifle's fine, and it was just a manufacturing defect with the primer. If all the other cartridges in your lot are fine, this is very odd. Usually a total failure like this only happens when you have "the buck of a lifetime" in your sights. [smilie=s:

MrModesto you may rest assured that the interior of that particular bolt is clean and free of any type of grease. Interior bolt parts to include firing pin, spring and bolt sleeve are lubricated with drops of light oil only. In my former cruffler religion this was a common issue from newbie collectors who didn't know how to ~spell~ bolt action let alone clean one.

Fingertips and primers. Yes, guilty. But I have fingertip consciousness. I'm *aware*.

The one cartridge that failed was loaded in a small lot that was the 2nd batch loaded that night. The 180 gr Loverin were loaded first. Same brass, same primers, same powder charge loaded only minutes between time. There were no fail to fire in those.

In thinking back 52 years I can't recall ever having a bum primer in commercial primers. Surplus ammo certainly gives us sometimes abundant click-bangs and duds. Lots of experience with that type of primer failure.

The fired case is in the back of my vehicle. When I get it out and inspected under bright light I'll post back here. Thanks for the thoughts:-)

Dutch

[Harter66]

I had that happen with a 45 Colts once never had a misfire before and only one since but I had 4 in one day in one box of shells I was cleaning up from "old stock" . You know go to the range and empty the brass from loads not used any more or whatever . Full range felt like 10,000 witnesses, not over 25 or 30 ........ Half burned Unique bullet stuck in the forcing. Stock springs in an RBH . Untumbled brass .

It happens most often with 87 witnesses to make you feel the fool .

[blue32]

I had the same problem with 2400 in 32-20 when seating the bullet out further than usual (in order to crimp in the crimp groove). Inconsistent burn with several cartridges which eventually resulted in a squib. Verify neck tension and consider seating deeper.

[Dutchman]

I'm guessing you had a very weak primer that didn't ignite the powder. I've had a couple instances where a standard primer failed to ignite a ball powder and the force of the primer drove the bullet far enough into the barrel to engage the rifling. Your bullet doesn't appear to have been driven much past the case mouth. That's gotta' be a real puny primer.

I had fired only five rounds before this one. Today I was able to inspect those fired cases and one of them caught my eye. This one had some unburned powder in the neck. Further inspection with a very bright light showed a clump of powder down inside the case. A very weak primer.

https://images49.fotki.com/v1679/photos/4/28344/9430776/IMG_0525-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/bullet-casting/img-0525.html)

https://images34.fotki.com/v1681/photos/4/28344/9430776/IMG_0528-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/bullet-casting/img-0528.html)

[MT Gianni]

Glad you have it figured out. It looks to be seated OK so weak primer it is.

[Larry Gibson]

Dutchman

Nothing, not even primers, are 100%. Primers going bang consistently, barring contamination, is considered to be something close to 99.9999%. The more we shoot the greater the odds are we going to find that .0001% primer. It appears you found one.......

[Dutchman]

Dutchman

Nothing, not even primers, are 100%. Primers going bang consistently, barring contamination, is considered to be something close to 99.9999%. The more we shoot the greater the odds are we going to find that .0001% primer. It appears you found one.......

A bad primer can change the course of the human race. ~MY~ human race.

I had loaded these for the two Arisaka two years ago. I loaded 20 rds each. So now I'll have to fire off the entire lot of 40 rds just to see if another dud raises it's ugly head.

Its disturbing to have a primer fail. You just can't ignore the implications. And whats more there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Dutch

[littlejack]

Is it just me, or is the primer in question inset?
I had some 7.62x54 brass that had deep pockets, and they did cause mifires.