Basic Marksmanship Question

[Mint]

Hey,

Very brief background... shot a .22 for years growing up as a kid in the boonies, mostly at cans. In high school, I shot my best friend's 1911 & AR15 maybe a dozen times at the range. In 20's I got Sig 556 SWAT and went to the range maybe 20 times with that before I had to get rid of it. About 10 years later, few months ago... I have gotten a truly immediate love of lever guns and bought several of them.

Up to this point, I have just shot for the "general experience" of shooting, getting on paper, having fun, not for a specific purpose other than "try to hit bullseye"

With my recent lever gun interest (as well as reloading stuff coming in mail), I've gone deeper into more purposeful and deliberate shooting. I feel like I'm missing something, but I don't know what it is... and by extension I don't know what to ask, so I'm hoping from my rambling someone can extract out what I'm trying to say.

My current procedure is to pick a lever gun out of my closet, go to the 50 or 100 yard range, staple up a 12" target. Shoot at it with barrel resting on the sandbag. Focus on front sight, focus on smooth trigger pull starting at the 'wall', trigger in between tip and first knuckle, holding gun perfectly vertical, hold breath, take shot, repeat maybe 20 or 30 times. Maybe get bored and try to shoot a stick off to the right, take a few pot shots at 4 inch steel gongs at 100 yards, go back to paper target, do this for 1.5 hours, go home. Occasionally I will zero guns with a brass punch, but only "good enough," I haven't tried to make one truly perfect yet.

Normally, in other hobbies, I am exceptionally results-driven. Unlike how shooting feels to me, in drawing, biking, guitar... there is a CLEAR connection between mind and body... every physical action begins with a clear intent, and an observation of how that physical action worked/didnt work => progress. Take drawing for instance, even when I have started drawing many years ago, the connection with my MIND and PHYSICAL MOVEMENT has always been crystal clear. A very clear feedback loop of WHAT IS and WHAT ISN'T working is VERY apparent. Information density is high. You can be a total beginner, draw a line 1 inch and IMMEDIATELY know you screwed up. With playing guitar, on the very day you get it, you can pluck a string and immediately get feedback of buzz or weak fingering.

With shooting, however... this mind body connection and feedback feels very hazy, awkward even... as if I'm 100 miles away or behind 5 inches of plexiglass. I think this is why my shooting sessions are mostly aimless (pun literally works here).

A small taste of my experience... I'm sitting there, wearing bulky ear pro, and shooting glasses that can fog (there is never-ending humidity and rolling fog where I live). Both my hearing and eyesight is now obscured. My consciousness is zoomed way out, cramped up in the tiny little control room of my mind. I'm staring down blurry semi-buckhorn sights. I look downrange 50 yards at my 12" target, and then focus on my front sight post. The target blurs, and it's so small it's like a 1x1 cm postage stamp. I can barely make out the square, and it looks like a fuzzy shapeshifting block. Further within that, the bright red bullseye is so faint and elusive that when I look at it, like a phantom it shifts around and disappears, like those optical illusions that appear only when you're not looking at them. 90% of the time I line up the front post by centering it on the entire target, rather than the bullseye, because I can't even see the bullseye. When I look at and line up the front post with the rear, the rear post is also blurry enough where I cant actually tell where the TOP of it is for "equal height equal light". It is a layered soup of uncomfortable, shifting, phasing-in-and-out blurriness. I take shot, look through binoculars and try again. I have no idea if I'm actually getting better other than "yes that was closer to bullseye"... but was it LUCK? Was it something I DID? I have no freaking idea.

Now, at 100 yards it's exponentially worse. At 100 yards I can barely make out 12" target, its a faint smudge. I literally just try to hit the paper at 100 yards.

I do have an astigmatism, no glasses because I am avoiding that as long as possible as that can make it worse. I can read perfectly fine up close and I can very easily drive, read signs, overhead menus, etc. Day to day I don't notice it, unless I'm shooting.

This overall akwardness and fuzziness makes my learning feedback loop that I'm used to feel very clumsy. I suppose my question can be distilled down to...... is what I'm experiencing normal. Am I doing something wrong. Is this due to my vision?

I have a peep sight on one of my guns and that does help a bit, but I don't want to install peep sights on some of these classic lever guns, I need to learn how to either fix this or get used to it.

Here is a 50 yard target if that helps gauge any basic mistakes I'm making, don't laugh :???:

https://i.imgur.com/F7N39WH.jpg

[BLAHUT]

You might want to get an .177 air gun to practice with? Practice at 10meters, start with standing, this can be done in basement, hall, garage, cardboard box filled with old quilts will stop all pellets. When you can put 10 shots in to about a 1/2 inch circle move to kneeling, then sitting, then prone. double peep, front and back will help. You need to get glasses if for no other reason for shooting. An air rifle will let you learn very cheaply, a 500 tin of pellets will cost you $10.00 or less. when you learn to shoot an air rifle well you will be able to shoot and shoulder fired rifle well, because of lock time. These are suggestions, I have taught many to shoot very accurately, You do not say where you are so personal help may not be available? The juniors I have taught have set many national Reckords in competition. If you want to PM me for more information please do?

[Castaway]

Instead of resting the barrel on sandbags, you’ll have better accuracy with the fore stock on the bags. Better yet, support the rifle immediately in front of the trigger guard/lever on the fore stock

[Mint]

You might want to get an .177 air gun to practice with? Practice at 10meters, start with standing, this can be done in basement, hall, garage, cardboard box filled with old quilts will stop all pellets. When you can put 10 shots in to about a 1/2 inch circle move to kneeling, then sitting, then prone. double peep, front and back will help. You need to get glasses if for no other reason for shooting. An air rifle will let you learn very cheaply, a 500 tin of pellets will cost you $10.00 or less. when you learn to shoot an air rifle well you will be able to shoot and shoulder fired rifle well, because of lock time. These are suggestions, I have taught many to shoot very accurately, You do not say where you are so personal help may not be available? The juniors I have taught have set many national Reckords in competition. If you want to PM me for more information please do?

What type of glasses would I get if only for shooting? Right now I wear these, which don't support prescription lenses I don't think: https://www.leupold.com/payload-matte-black-shadow-gray-flash

[Hick]

Question on your vision: If you did not focus on the front sight would you be able to see the target clearly? Some of us who cannot focus properly (like me) install a globe sight in the front sight dovetail. This lets us look through two holes (peep in the rear and an aperture in the front). The human eye naturally centers in the hole-- so with this sight system you can focus on the target. Globe sights are available for standard dovetails, so you can still preserve the originality of the rifle.

[BLAHUT]

You can get safety glasses with bi-focals in them up to a +3.0 for about $30.00 or best bet would be see an eye doctor, get your prescription and then order some on line.
Your target will be blurry, double peep and seeing glasses will help a lot.

[MT Gianni]

So what do you want to do? You can continue to make holes if it satisfies you. You can get glasses just for shooting that puts your front and rear sights in focus with a slightly fuzzy target. You can modify classic target guns or not.

When I start with a new to me gun I try to run some tried and true loads or book medium loads through it first. I will resort to buying factory if I can't make my reloads work as I want. I need a baseline to know what the gun is capable of. I usually start with as good a rest as I can get, front and rear for rifles. I decide what my plans are for the gun and write them down. To get there I will experiment with charges, weigh bullets and change bullet types. If I were stuck with buckhorn sights I would have quit on this sport long ago. I cannot focus on them enough to be accurate. If I have to keep it at 15 yards to get a good group with sights and that is a useful goal I would achieve my goal.I also would sell the gun down river and get something I could scope.

So my suggestions are to figure out what you want to do and outline what you think you have to do to get there. If just burning powder makes you happy, you're already there.

[Mint]

Question on your vision: If you did not focus on the front sight would you be able to see the target clearly? Some of us who cannot focus properly (like me) install a globe sight in the front sight dovetail. This lets us look through two holes (peep in the rear and an aperture in the front). The human eye naturally centers in the hole-- so with this sight system you can focus on the target.

At 50 yards, no it wouldn't be super clear. I would need to use binoculars to see the shots. I have never been able to see splatter target shots at 50 yards ever I don't think. I only start to see them when they start to chain together.

To put another example... at the 15 yard range when I shot a truglow target with a .22 (which dont show up well), I was trying to see where I shot. The range officer immediately saw it and said I'm an inch eye. I stared at it for maybe 10 seconds looking for it and eventually saw it, but just barely.

These:

https://osg.akamaized.net/posters/8/1155404274/1155404274_2777301139001_vs-526e7df2e4b03283b83f983b-1592194042001.jpg

[Mint]

So what do you want to do? You can continue to make holes if it satisfies you. You can get glasses just for shooting that puts your front and rear sights in focus with a slightly fuzzy target. You can modify classic target guns or not.

When I start with a new to me gun I try to run some tried and true loads or book medium loads through it first. I will resort to buying factory if I can't make my reloads work as I want. I need a baseline to know what the gun is capable of. I usually start with as good a rest as I can get, front and rear for rifles. I decide what my plans are for the gun and write them down. To get there I will experiment with charges, weigh bullets and change bullet types. If I were stuck with buckhorn sights I would have quit on this sport long ago. I cannot focus on them enough to be accurate. If I have to keep it at 15 yards to get a good group with sights and that is a useful goal I would achieve my goal.I also would sell the gun down river and get something I could scope.

So my suggestions are to figure out what you want to do and outline what you think you have to do to get there. If just burning powder makes you happy, you're already there.

In any hobby I do, I care greatly about getting better. I would like to improve accuracy. I suppose a distilled version of my question is..... is what I am experiencing normal and I should get used to it, or is something specifically wrong. I thought it might be my vision but also day to day vision is never an issue, so I dunno.

[M-Tecs]

It's impossible for the human eye too focus at more than one distance at a time. With rifles or handguns the front sight must be clear. The rear sight and target will not be in focus. Once mastered with good service rifle with a post front sight 1 MOA at a 1,000 yards is possible with proper front sight focus provide the shooter and equipment are up to that level of accuracy. Maintaining the proper focus on the front post is one of the more difficult aspects of that type of shooting.

[john.k]

The answer ,which might be costly,is to consult a sport specialist eye doctor.

[Mint]

It's impossible for the human eye too focus at more than one distance at a time. With rifles or handguns the front sight must be clear. The rear sight and target will not be in focus. Once mastered with good service rifle with a post front sight 1 MOA at a 1,000 yards is possible with proper front sight focus provide the shooter and equipment are up to that level of accuracy. Maintaining the proper focus on the front post is one of the more difficult aspects of that type of shooting.

Interestingly, the front sight is very clear. I have what feels like perfect vision up to maybe 10 feet. I will go get an eye exam for exact numbers though, based on these replies.

[Bazoo]

For ear protection, use silicone ear plugs. For fog, Ziess anti fog wipes or spray. Not the Walmart stuff, it sucks, the ziess. That’s a common problem for me too.

For a connective feel to shooting, try shotgun shooting at clay birds. It’s instinctive and much fun.

Hunting is a clear goal you can do with your rifles. So is getting smaller groups.

Perhaps spectacles are in order. I have astigmatism and I can shoot at and see at those distances with the right target. There is the key. I cannot see a round black bullseye and the sights.

I found that with my Winchester 94 30-30, the rear sight didn’t suit my eyes. It had too wide a notch. I installed a marbles semi-buckhorn and I found that the white diamond was not to my liking. It caused eye strain. I reversed the little plate that held it, I now have all black, and a notch that matches my front sight well. So that was an issue.

Consider fiber optic front sight if it doesn’t ruin the rifle. I can’t bring myself to do it on my 30-30...yet.

Next I worked on, and continue to experiment with, targets. So far, the targets I can see the best is neon green aiming points on brown cardboard backers. Black targets like you are using are a no go for my eyes. I’ve tried a few different colors and backgrounds.

I noticed I can hit a stick or a can easier than I can make a group on paper. That is probably because I can’t see the targets as well.

When target shooting, shoot a 3 or 5 shot string and then check it. That keeps you from breaking concentration, and keeps you from worrying about a flyer or being like “omg I have a cloverleaf” and then mess it up.

Sounds like you're getting bored. Been there. I don’t do much in the way of bench shooting. But I do some, and I also practice things like standing offhand, sitting rested on my knee, using a tree or post as a rest. Left handed shooting, shooting coke cans or similar targets and walking them away from me. I shoot at empty cases and shotgun hulls. The key is not making it boring. I don’t shoot over about a 2 hour session, and often just an hour or 1/2 hour. I’d rather shoot offhand than anything. I can hit an empty 12 gauge hull at 25 yards when I’m on, and always hit a coke can to about 40y. That isn’t great but, offhand, it’s respectable.

Having a self healing reactive target, hung to swing from a rope is fun. Hit it, and then try to hit it on the fly.

Having a shooting buddy is real nice. You play horse. You pick a shot and he matches it. And so on. I don’t have much in that way.

Always fun to have a few bottles of water to shoot. With various calibers.

Get another 22... they are still just as fun. A marlin 39a is an adult quality lever action 22 rifle.

That’s all I got for ideas, and most of it is stuff I do or have done.

Oh, when I was a kid, man I loved to shoot a juicy cow pie. Fun watching them explode.

[Mint]

For ear protection, use silicone ear plugs. For fog, Ziess anti fog wipes or spray..

Wow awesome, thank you.

I just ordered those Ziess wipes, great idea.

Regarding shotgun, that is DEFINITELY on my list. We have a nice clay shooting range but I have been taking my time with lever guns.

I really wish I had plinking targets or some things you mentioned.... especially cow pies. But alas our range wont really allow them except 1 tiny gong. I think it would be incredibly fun to set up things like that. A shooting buddy also sounds nice lol.

If I had my own land I can think of 1000 things I would shoot (bottles, etc).

I love to shoot my .22 standing with iron sights @ 200 yard 12" gongs, I can hit them quite consistently with a Winchester 9422

[Bazoo]

This is more what excites me.
https://i.postimg.cc/HkzPSmBq/FA998-B83-F0-AD-4-D02-8-C1-C-DE992-CA69876.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Jsyqnfwx)

The right target is 6 shots, left is the very next 12 to prove it wasn’t a fluke.

I can’t see these aiming points at 50 yard by the way.

[Mal Paso]

Iron sights against a black target are hard to see. You can print targets on white paper. There are lots available online for download.

Or paper plates. LOL

[Bazoo]

If your range will allow a hanging target, you likely can use a self healing suspended target.

If you’re around here I could offer you to plink on my farm with me. I can’t remember if you said where you are.

[GhostHawk]

Consider a Red Dot type sight or a scope.

In my 40's I found I was no longer competative with my Ruger 10/22 .22lr. A good scope brought me back to where I had been then improved on existing skill.

I'm 70 now and some 5 years ago I started outitting my rifles with Red Dot type sights. I particually like the Truglo 2x magnification Red Dot. Looks a bit like a very short small scope. Price runs from 50-60$.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000OICEUM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

For 100 yard shooting any variable scope that gets up to 5x will out shoot a Red Dot. Even a 2.5 MOA dot covers Two and a half inches of target at 100 yards. Perfectly sighted in that bullet can be anywhere in that circle.

On the plus side Dot sights are quick to acquire target, tend to be better in low light conditions. Plus lighter weight and less bulk on top of your rifle to catch on things.

I would suggest next time your at the range ask if anyone has a Red Dot sight setup that would let you look through it.

[Mint]

If your range will allow a hanging target, you likely can use a self healing suspended target.

If you’re around here I could offer you to plink on my farm with me. I can’t remember if you said where you are.

Man that is cool of you. I would in a heart beat. Sadly I'm on the other end of the US deep in the red woods, in the void. I would love to just walk around and shoot in the woods but where I'm at, but alas I don't as I hear of people always getting caught.

I did see this cool video of "walk and shoot" in wyoming I'd love to do, on public land in the desert.

That is all just me dreamin' though, lol. For now I get to shoot at the same range as the last 50 times and try to find ways to not have it repetitive.

At first I thought only shooting on weekends was a downside, but now I see it as an upside because its a great amount of time to look forward to it the next time.

[Randy Bohannon]

Mint,
I have have been shooting for 50 years with modest success in a few of the Gun disciplines , military as well. Nothing in those 50 years taught more about being accurate with your chosen firearm than a weekend at a Project Appleseed event .
You will learn more about shooting in a weekend than any other weekend in your life. A most worth while and challenging experience . https://appleseedinfo.org/

[Bazoo]

I’m thankful for my place to shoot so I like to share with those that need a better place.

On a static range, sadly their ain’t many options. Maybe something like this https://www.google.com/shopping/product/4969642465465449131?q=pistol+steel+swinging+target s&client=safari&sa=X&bih=548&biw=375&hl=en-US&tbs=vw:l&prmd=isvn&prds=prmr:1,cs:1&ved=0ahUKEwig2Y6t5ob7AhV-jIkEHSKeCaAQgTYIyxk

Double or even triple would make it more fun.

[Mint]

Mint,
I have have been shooting for 50 years with modest success in a few of the Gun disciplines , military as well. Nothing in those 50 years taught more about being accurate with your chosen firearm than a weekend at a Appleseed event .
You will learn more about shooting in a weekend than any other weekend in your life. A most worth while and challenging experience .

I absolutely love challenges. I have actually heard a little about this but not much. Is what you learn mostly from talking to people and getting tips, or can you go more into specifics?

EDIT: I started reading about it, holy **** this looks really cool. There are 2 events about 300 miles away within the next 2 months

[contender1]

Lots of good info in the posts above.

One thing not mentioned is that you may benefit from a one-on-one class from a GOOD instructor.

As a firearm instructor,, I get to see a lot of people who have incorrect methods of HOW they shoot. And if you get proper instruction you can work on developing the skills to become a better shooter.
Of course, if you need glasses, or even an eye exam etc to make sure you are seeing the things you are supposed to see, by all means, do so. When I got old enough to where my eyes started letting me know I was not 21 years young & bulletproof anymore,, I had to get glasses. One thing I did was work with my eye doctor to get a pair of proper, prescription glasses just for shooting open sights.

But there are many variables in shooting,, and even different things for different types of firearms. But the basics are the fundamentals necessary to become a better shooter.

Besides,, it's easier to develop correct skills first,, instead of trying to correct a bad skill that has become a motor memory skill.

[M-Tecs]

The fastest way to improve it with formal competition that is based on accuracy with better shooters. Being a medium sized or even large fish is a small pond is very limiting. When I was younger I was big fish in a small pond. I thought I was very good until I went up against truly big fish (national title holders). It didn't take me long to figure out in the big pond I was truly a small fish. Thats when the real learning and improvement started.

If you shoot NRA Highpower around major metro areas every couple of years the LE SWAT members show up talking smack and in a couple of cases, they even apologized for the can of whopping they were going to unleash on us. Unless they had a competitive HS or College level small bore background they always finished at the very bottom. Most were one and done never to be seen again. A couple stuck with it and got to be very good.

[Bazoo]

I have tried plastic and poly lenses. Poly gives a larger field of vision and works fine for me. Plastic, I couldn’t see the sights. I have moderate astigmatism.

One thing that helps learn to shoot, is handling and dry firing your gun often. Many people only take their gun out when going shooting. So they really ain’t comfortable with it. If you handle it several times a week to daily, it becomes something more comfortable and you’re likely to do better.

Instruction is a good idea. I have taught myself. I relearned some things as I learned better techniques. I’m a fine offhand rifle shot close range. But I can’t shoot long range for beans. But I don’t like long range either. I like handguns and short range rifle and shotgun. So finding what ya like is a good thing. I tried tactical stuff, ARs and AKs, and it just ain’t for me.

[JSnover]

So what do you want to do? You can continue to make holes if it satisfies you. You can get glasses just for shooting that puts your front and rear sights in focus with a slightly fuzzy target.

I'd start there.
A normal human eyeball can resolve an object of about 4" at 100 yards and I shot well at that distance with iron sights many years ago: a 12" bullseye was easy to hit.
A rear aperture with a front globe will help but if your vision isn't good there's only so much you can do.

[Wayne Smith]

Let me give you a couple of things to think about. 1) By using leverguns you are limiting your potential accuracy. This is not bad, just know what to expect from your instrument. 2) Definitely get your eyes checked. I had extreme near sightedness and astigmitism and went to scopes on my rifles. It was amazing the difference it made when I could see my target! Now I could look at how solidly or less solidly I was holding the rifle. 3) Consider the reason you are shooting - if hunting deer is your goal hand up a 10" paper plate. If you can routinely keep all your shots on that target you are good to go - that is the size of the kill area on a typical deer. Be aware that your vision handicaps you in hunting as well - I would walk in the woods with my Dad or my best friend - they would point out deer and I would see nothing - even with glasses and corrected vision.

You mention not wanting to spoil the line of your rifles - this suggests you have a more romantic view of them than purely practical. If you were purely practical you would put scopes on them or get a rifle with a scope on it!

[Randy Bohannon]

I absolutely love challenges. I have actually heard a little about this but not much. Is what you learn mostly from talking to people and getting tips, or can you go more into specifics?

EDIT: I started reading about it, holy **** this looks really cool. There are 2 events about 300 miles away within the next 2 months

Mint,

The initial event is done with .22 rimfire at 50 yards prone position , all stages are timed and targets vary. You will be instructed on how to find your natural point of aim and make corrections for each position,prone,sitting and standing. I did it with my CZ 452 American bolt action as I really would like their Rifleman badge to go on their high power events,very few people do it with bolt action rifles. You will be doing magazine changes as well for all targets and positions. The vast majority of shooters use tricked out 10-22’s you will need several magazine for your rifle. You will be tired at the end of each day and satisfied you are making progress and learning what you don’t know. The best part for me was having a expert look at you in each position and being corrected until you master the position .

[45workhorse]

I second what Randy said. My son and I went. I learned a few things, and had a good time burning powder with my son.
The history lessons between strings of fire where also good.

[Mint]

A few things this thread has made me decide to do

1. I got a CZ 457 Varmint and a scope. I had been researching this gun actually for awhile but never pulled trigger. I decided if I am to practice accuracy I shouldn't be limiting myself with leverguns which are not the most accurate. I'll get some match grade ammunitions to test when the rifle gets here.

2. I made an eye appointment, or will, when they open tomrrow

3. I looked up appleseed events near me, the closest is 6 hours away in 5 days (too soon), 12 hours away in 1 month (maybe). I'm hoping there are ones each month though and 2023 will have some close


This suggests you have a more romantic view of them than purely practical.

Very excellent observation, this is true for a lot of things I do. I'm extremely tactile person, and gain a lot of pleasure through sight/touch. Things I don't care deeply about or only see as "tools" I generally don't care about at all. The weight, heft, curves, metal, balance, sound of the action, sensory experience... it is like preferring a manual transmission over automatic.

All that aside, when I do hobbies, I still have the highest purpose of getting better, so while what you point out is there it doesn't inhibit progress. It's very hard for me to do something and not simultaneously want to master it. Many people paint to let emotions out, or play guitar to relax, whereas what drives me to do those things is to master them. These present gotchas aside, shooting is the same way.

I read the book "cast bullet handbook" as well as "lever guns of the old west." The author seems to have hints of the same. I also see replies on here (@Bazoo) where he doesn't want to kill the vibe of his 30-30. So I am grateful there are other people out there that are similar so I'm not the only one who's kookoo.


very few people do it with bolt action rifles Ah... yeah. Before I bought this bolt action CZ I read about that, but I figure with the price of a ruger 10/22 I can either go more than once, or buy an automatic right before I go.

[Mint]

Lots of good info in the posts above.

One thing not mentioned is that you may benefit from a one-on-one class from a GOOD instructor.

As a firearm instructor,, I get to see a lot of people who have incorrect methods of HOW they shoot. And if you get proper instruction you can work on developing the skills to become a better shooter.
Of course, if you need glasses, or even an eye exam etc to make sure you are seeing the things you are supposed to see, by all means, do so. When I got old enough to where my eyes started letting me know I was not 21 years young & bulletproof anymore,, I had to get glasses. One thing I did was work with my eye doctor to get a pair of proper, prescription glasses just for shooting open sights.

But there are many variables in shooting,, and even different things for different types of firearms. But the basics are the fundamentals necessary to become a better shooter.

Besides,, it's easier to develop correct skills first,, instead of trying to correct a bad skill that has become a motor memory skill.

Can you let me know what to specifically ask for regarding "shooting glasses"? What constitutes as that, and what type of glasses are they (in optometrist terms)?

[Mint]

If you shoot NRA Highpower around major metro areas every couple of years the LE SWAT members show up talking smack and in a couple of cases, they even apologized for the can of whopping they were going to unleash on us. Unless they had a competitive HS or College level small bore background they always finished at the very bottom. Most were one and done never to be seen again. A couple stuck with it and got to be very good.

This made me had a great laugh, thanks.

Yes I would love (experienced) training. Around my area I think it's very sparse, but if I drive some hours I can definitely get to more populated areas like those Appleseed events. I'm absolutely going to do that.

[Bloodman14]

I don't suppose you could us your location? A member might be close by to assist.

[Mint]

I don't suppose you could us your location? A member might be close by to assist.

I'm in northern California

[M-Tecs]

Can you let me know what to specifically ask for regarding "shooting glasses"? What constitutes as that, and what type of glasses are they (in optometrist terms)?

It's the focus distance to the front sight and the optical center ground to where you look through the glasses. Depending on the prescription that may require a different set for handgun verse rifle/shotgun. The best ophthalmologist/optometrist let you bring the firearm in and locate optical center in your shooting position. Have you confirmed which eye is dominate?

[Mint]

It's the focus distance to the front sight and the optical center ground to where you look through the glasses. Depending on the prescription that may require a different set for handgun verse rifle/shotgun. The best ophthalmologist/optometrist let you bring the firearm in and locate optical center in your shooting position. Have you confirmed which eye is dominate?

Man, now this is a good question... Thank you for reminding me, maybe you can help me with this.

I've read about this about 20 times, but it's still unclear to me WHAT actually happens if I use my non-dominant eye. This makes me think maybe I'm one of those few people that can use both eyes.

Basically I'm right handed, and when I do all the tests (move hole shape to an eye and see where it naturally goes, etc) it always goes to my left eye, so by this definition I am cross-eye dominant.

From my understanding, if I use my right eye (which is what I do), and I'm using a rifle, then I need to close my left eye to get my sight picture before opening it.

Now given everything I read, I keep seeing that if I leave both eyes open and use my right (non-dominant) eye, then it's going to give me inaccurate results. But from my experience, if I do the INVERSE... I bring the sight up to my right eye with both eyes open, and then close my left eye, would I NOT see the sight picture "shift" to the accurate version? Because it doesn't move or change at all. I see the exact same sight picture. SO... if going the opposite direction produces no change, then how is going the other direction (closing eye dominant, getting picture, opening eye) going to produce different results?

What am I actually "fixing" when I close my left eye?

[M-Tecs]

https://www.theshootapp.com/eye-dominance-and-how-it-impacts-your-shooting/

https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/cross-eye-dominant-shooting

https://www.theyorkshiregent.com/shooting/eye-dominance-ruining-shooting-dont-let/

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/cross-eye-dominance-how-it-affects-rifle-shooting/

[Bazoo]

I choose to limit my practical shooting to aesthetics of the gun. I shoot better with a scope. Bolt actions and pointy bullets are better in most cases. I prefer iron sights, and mediocre ballistics. I also don’t care for aperture sights so I don’t use them either. It isn’t the sight I don’t care for, it’s they way they look in the gun. A skinner peep sight on a marlin looks fine to me and I’d use it.

Now there are folks that say performance, or accuracy is all that matters. That’s fine for them. Let them have all black and plastic guns with red dots. Rubber grips on single actions. Whatever. Aesthetics and feel are important to me. If it was only about performance we would all have bolt guns in 30-06 with scopes.

I am however the exception I think.

[JoeJames]

I was on the college varsity ROTC rifle team 52 years ago for two years. We had a feller on the team who shot right handed but was left eye dominant. He did fine by closing his left eye, but finally the Sergeant taped a card over his shooting glasses on the left side. If your right eye is not dominant but you can see clearly out of it; you should be fine by closing your left eye.

[725]

All of the above............ Get a handle on the dominate eye thing. Either shoot with the off-hand (it can be done) or close the eye. Shooting off a rest is a skill all it's own. Not knowing or seeing your set up, let me just say that a rifle can jump by the forces of recoil enough to mess up your shot. Hold the forearm with your hand and rest your hand against your rest. Try and get a good purchase on the shoulder so it doesn't move while you are shooting. Also, many of us have "dry eye" and don't know it. Some eye moisturizer or anti-histamine eye drops clear a lot of stuff up. (I used to keep eye wash in my sniper case - You just never know what conditions will be when deployed.). Good luck.

[BLAHUT]

Man, now this is a good question... Thank you for reminding me, maybe you can help me with this.

I've read about this about 20 times, but it's still unclear to me WHAT actually happens if I use my non-dominant eye. This makes me think maybe I'm one of those few people that can use both eyes.

Basically I'm right handed, and when I do all the tests (move hole shape to an eye and see where it naturally goes, etc) it always goes to my left eye, so by this definition I am cross-eye dominant.

From my understanding, if I use my right eye (which is what I do), and I'm using a rifle, then I need to close my left eye to get my sight picture before opening it.

Now given everything I read, I keep seeing that if I leave both eyes open and use my right (non-dominant) eye, then it's going to give me inaccurate results. But from my experience, if I do the INVERSE... I bring the sight up to my right eye with both eyes open, and then close my left eye, would I NOT see the sight picture "shift" to the accurate version? Because it doesn't move or change at all. I see the exact same sight picture. SO... if going the opposite direction produces no change, then how is going the other direction (closing eye dominant, getting picture, opening eye) going to produce different results?

What am I actually "fixing" when I close my left eye?

You say you are left eye Dominant ?? If this is true, learn to shoot off the left side. This will only take a few hours to complete the change. I have done this with many students, both young and old. You will be amazed at what your target will look like after the change. With this mew gun, you do not need match grade ammo, start with off the shelf ammo, when you learn and you get better and strive for 10 shot one-hole groups, standing, them wade into match ammo and finding what your guns like. Like I said before, A cheap air gun, A one pump, .177 at 10 meters ( 33' ) is good to learn with, cheap shooting, $10.00 or less for 500 shots, you may not need to travel more than to your garage, all you learn will transfer to rimfire or center fire. If you can put 10 inside a dime size target standing then all you will need to do at longer yardage's is tighten up your groups, hold and trigger work. You want to learn to shoot accurately ? PRACTICE and then practice some more, like M-tecs stated, you want to swim with the big fish, it take a lot of work. To shoot accurately is not hard, after you learn, just takes practice.

[BLAHUT]

All of the above............ Get a handle on the dominate eye thing. Either shoot with the off-hand (it can be done) or close the eye. Shooting off a rest is a skill all it's own. Not knowing or seeing your set up, let me just say that a rifle can jump by the forces of recoil enough to mess up your shot. Hold the forearm with your hand and rest your hand against your rest. Try and get a good purchase on the shoulder so it doesn't move while you are shooting. Also, many of us have "dry eye" and don't know it. Some eye moisturizer or anti-histamine eye drops clear a lot of stuff up. (I used to keep eye wash in my sniper case - You just never know what conditions will be when deployed.). Good luck.

I did and still do, I carried/carry and use Artificial Tears.

[BLAHUT]

The fastest way to improve it with formal competition that is based on accuracy with better shooters. Being a medium sized or even large fish is a small pond is very limiting. When I was younger I was big fish in a small pond. I thought I was very good until I went up against truly big fish (national title holders). It didn't take me long to figure out in the big pond I was truly a small fish. Thats when the real learning and improvement started.

If you shoot NRA Highpower around major metro areas every couple of years the LE SWAT members show up talking smack and in a couple of cases, they even apologized for the can of whopping they were going to unleash on us. Unless they had a competitive HS or College level small bore background they always finished at the very bottom. Most were one and done never to be seen again. A couple stuck with it and got to be very good.

You are so correct. I have spent many years fighting to get the last place spot, at many national competitions. Yes; I hold a few national Reckord's.
But I still have many, many more questions, than I ever have answers. Competition's is/are where you will learn, a lot.
Your target will show you all the airs of yours.

[BigboreShooter]

Occasionally while at the local range, other shooter will comment and compliment on my shooting ability. I thank them, and reply that I’m not great marksman. Just that everybody is really bad.
It’s amazing how a little practice and dedication will make a person standout. That goes with about everything in life.

BigboreShooter

[ozonebob]

Mint,

Mount a scope on your rifle(s) and shoot a variety of brands and bullet weights on targets at your preferred distance. This will tell you the accuracy potential. This gives you a goal to shoot for (!) when you remove the scope and revert to the iron sights.

In this way you can measure your progress as you improve your eyesight, upgrade your sights (globe front, peep rear, etc.), and update your shooting technique.

Have fun.

Ozonebob

[.429&H110]

Yer supposed to be having fun!

I first picked up a revolver at the old age of fifty
At least I had no bad habits (or good habits either)
My shooting coach insisted I learn to shoot cans and tennis balls.
Nice cheap reactive targets. My coach said
No paper ever hurt anybody, we shoot threats, and quickly, too.
Wife and I spent hours with 22 pistols and a dueling tree
Her old High Standard, vs my new Mark 3 is a fair fight.
She learned to shoot as a kid, and dang she's good.

[contender1]

Shooting glasses. M-Tecs has explained it quite well. It's basically a set of prescription glasses designed to allow the correct focal plane for either handguns or rifles.

And what you've said about the eye dominance part. By what you described,, you are right handed & left eye dominant. I've seen a lot of that. In fact my wife is that way. Not uncommon.
In USPSA (and other) competitions, it's common to see a shooter place a piece of scotch tape over their dominant eye's lens. That way, they still have the ability to keep both eyes open AND see all around things. Yet,, it makes their weaker eye actually focus on the sights as they should.
You can do this as well. It'll allow you to align your rifle with your natural right sided habits.
Or, you can learn to shoot left handed.
Or, in handguns,, I've seen folks cant or tilt the gun to align the sights.
Or, you can use a scope, which aligns your right handed habits and makes your right eye do the work.

My wife chose to learn to shoot left handed. She's mostly a handgunner. So, she trained her mind & body to never pick up a handgun with her right hand. Whenever she picks one up, it's easy for her to get a proper grip AND align the sights correctly.

[Mint]

https://www.theshootapp.com/eye-dominance-and-how-it-impacts-your-shooting/

https://www.at3tactical.com/blogs/news/cross-eye-dominant-shooting

https://www.theyorkshiregent.com/shooting/eye-dominance-ruining-shooting-dont-let/

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/cross-eye-dominance-how-it-affects-rifle-shooting/

Ive read all 4 of those articles now and not a single one answers what my question is. This is why this topic is so confusing.

Literally none of them point out what EXACTLY is this solving? They just vaguely allude to "missing shots" etc. What I'd like to know is what would a person see/experience if they're doing this the wrong way... that way I can compare it to what I see, because I don't think I'm seeing the same thing, which is probably why I don't understand what they're talking about

This is the closest sentence I found in all 4 articles:


When a shooter aims with their non-dominant eye, their shots will stray to the left or right of their target because the sights are not properly aligned with the target, even though they may appear to be from the shooter’s perspective

I literally don't even know what this means. This is what I was trying to articulate. Lets say I close my dominant eye, bring iron sights up to non-dominant eye, and open the closed eye. The sight picture does NOT move.

Now lets try the opposite. I bring the ACOG or iron sights up with both eyes open. I now close my dominant eye. The sight picture STILL does NOT move.

So, if in both cases where I'm shooting with my non-dominant eye, the solution doesnt actually change my sight picture, then WHAT is all of this actually solving?

This is why I think perhaps I have a preference for my dominant eye but maybe I can use both eyes equally, as I read a slim % of people can do.

If what the articles are referring to is the natural tendency if I were to QUICK pull a pistol up and aim, my tendency would be to use my dominant eye, and I have to think a moment, hesitate, and then turn my head to use the other eye? If its that "impulse" then I can see maybe in some very fast training drills or something it might affect shot times, but in my case I can very naturally just simply bring the sights up with both eyes open to my non dominant eye without really doing anything and the sight picture I see is the same as if I close my dominant eye or not.

[Mint]

BTW I'm truly not trying to be difficult, I am trying to understand.

This same thing happened when I got the ACOG 4x. I read the little pamplet that explained eye dominance and how it relates to the ACOG. I read it about 10 times and spent an hour trying to replicate it and I couldnt. Left me completely confused.

If I hold the AR15 in right hand, very quickly bring ACOG up to my right eye (non-dominant), it works fine, without any hesitation. I can close my left eye open and shut and the picture in my right eye never changes

Then I can hold the AR15 in my left hand, quickly bring it up to left eye, close my right eye, and the picture in my left eye does not change at all

On both sides, this experience looks and is perceived by myself as identical, except for the fact that when both eyes are open the main image appears to have a 10% overlay of my other eye, as if its 90% opaque. This happens with BOTH sides though, and it appears about the same level of translucency whether its my left side or my right side. Theyre quite literally exactly equal experiences on both sides

[contender1]

Ok, you may well be "negative-eye dominant." That means you can use either eye equally.

I haven't tried any of the ACOG sights, so I can't relate any direct experiences. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they a type of holographic sight? BUT,, if you are using open sights, such as on the lever actions, you may well be experiencing one eye being more dominant than the other.
But if you are negative eye dominant,, you may have a slight difference in one or the other, that you may not see,, yet actually translates into weaker accuracy at a distance.
An optometrist can help with this, to get you to be able to understand your questions.

[Mint]

Ok, you may well be "negative-eye dominant." That means you can use either eye equally.

I haven't tried any of the ACOG sights, so I can't relate any direct experiences. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they a type of holographic sight? BUT,, if you are using open sights, such as on the lever actions, you may well be experiencing one eye being more dominant than the other.
But if you are negative eye dominant,, you may have a slight difference in one or the other, that you may not see,, yet actually translates into weaker accuracy at a distance.
An optometrist can help with this, to get you to be able to understand your questions.

Ah interesting, so it has a name. The same is true what I said for iron sights. The ACOG isn't a holographic site but rather a fixed 4x optic

I'm going to eat, but I will definitely schedule an appointment for sure, thanks!

[M-Tecs]

Literally none of them point out what EXACTLY is this solving? .

It's simple geometry. The sighting eye has to be directly behind the front and rear sight or the shotgun bead or beads. If the dominate eye is off to the side you will see down the side of the barrel not over or through the sights/beads. I have heard of people that the eyes are closely balanced so it may be possible that the eye dominance is switching based on need??? What is not possible is to mount an iron sight rifle or a shotgun and not be looking down the side of the barrel with the off eye. It truly is nothing more than simple geometry

https://www.allaboutvision.com/resources/dominant-eye-test.htm

No dominant eye: Is it possible?
Is it possible to not have a dominant eye? Perhaps, but it would be uncommon.

If a strong degree of dominance is not apparent in a dominant eye test, it’s more likely a person has mixed ocular dominance (also called alternating ocular dominance). In this case, one eye is dominant for certain functions or tasks, and the other eye is dominant at different times.

Some people may perform a sighting dominant eye test and find that the visual target is not perfectly aligned with the triangular opening between their hands or with their thumb (depending on which type of sighting test they perform) with either eye.

There is a spectrum of degree of eye dominance among individuals. (The same is true for handedness.) In other words, some people may have one eye that is very dominant, while others may have less of a difference in the dominance of their two eyes.

To some degree, however, eye dominance is hardwired in your brain.

Within the visual cortex (the part of the brain that processes visual information) are stripes of nerve cells (neurons) called dominant eye columns. These bands of neurons seem to respond preferentially to input from one eye or the other and are important to the development of binocular vision.

But researchers also believe there is some overlap and plasticity in these dominant eye columns — suggesting eye dominance can be variable, alternating and perhaps incomplete in some individuals.

[Mint]

Alright, that's pretty much what I was expecting was the case, as far as this:


If the dominate eye is off to the side you will see down the side of the barrel not over or through the sights/beads.

This is 100% false in my experience.

I can bring iron sights right up to my non-dominant eye and immediately be looking down the iron sights or optic with no effort at all.

I can likewise move the gun to the other hand, and immediately bring it up to that eye, and its 100% the exact same result.

Both eyes will immediately look through the scope. The sight picture is identical in both cases, with equal "effort" and no perceivable difference, other than my left hand feels weird holding the gun :razz:

BTW I can do all of this with both eyes open, I dont need to close the eye first to "jump start" it.

This is why I kept trying to ask "what is this actually solving". It sounds like I am just equally able to use both eyes, so that definitely answers my frustration in trying to understand this.


To some degree, however, eye dominance is hardwired in your brain.

I mean this i totally get, I can feel it. It's just that when I bring the scope up, it doesnt come into affect there. It just easily switches effortlessly depending on what eye I want to use.

Thanks for that further explanation :drinks:

[M-Tecs]

Alright, that's pretty much what I was expecting was the case, as far as this:



This is 100% false in my experience.

I can bring iron sights right up to my non-dominant eye and immediately be looking down the iron sights or optic with no effort at all.

I can likewise move the gun to the other hand, and immediately bring it up to that eye, and its 100% the exact same result.

Both eyes will immediately look through the scope. The sight picture is identical in both cases, with equal "effort" and no perceivable difference, other than my left hand feels weird holding the gun :razz:

This is why I kept trying to ask "what is this actually solving". It sounds like I am just equally able to use both eyes, so that definitely answers my frustration in trying to understand this.



I mean this i totally get, I can feel it. It's just that when I bring the scope up, it doesnt come into affect there. It just easily switches effortlessly depending on what eye I want to use.

Not false in the least. It's simple geometry. If what you are saying is true your eye dominance is switching based on need when both eyes are open. Simply not possible if you hold the iron sight rifle or shotgun right-handed with the right eye open than close the right eye and open the left. You will be looking down the side of the barrel.

[Mint]

Not false in the least. It's simple geometry. If what you are saying is true your eye dominance is switching based on need when both eyes are open. Simply not possible if you hold the iron sight rifle or shotgun right-handed with the right eye open than close the right eye and open the left. You will be looking down the side of the barrel.

I don't mean what you're saying is false, you are the expert here :) I mean _in my experience_ that one sentence is not what I perceive with my eyes

As far as the geometry of it, that makes sense. If one eye is looking down the scope, the other will be looking down the side of the scope, and unless the eyes can switch easily then the person is going to see... well I dont know what it would see but I assume a strongly dominant eye person is going to see the 2 images "fighting" each other, and the scope image is not going to win, so really they just see a mish-mash of visual information that needs to be jump started with a closed eye first.

[rbuck351]

I don't think eye dominance is your problem. I can shoot handgun with either eye and either hand by simply moving the gun left or right to align with the eye of preference. ( both eyes open) Rifle doesn't work because when shooting right handed I can't get my left eye to align with the sights. When shooting left handed I can't get my right eye to align with the sights.

I believe your issue is probably a combination of your vision and the sights you are using. I'm now 74 and my vision isn't what it use to be. For a rear sight I prefer a peep with a fairly large opening and a narrow flat top blade in front. See if you can find a flip up tang sight for one of your lever guns. The closer your eye is to the peep the better you eye will self center in the peep. Concentrate your vision on the front sight to keep it sharp in focus. Center the somewhat fuzzy target on top of the blade and forget about the peep.

If you can't keep the front sight sharp and the target only somewhat fuzzy, you probably have a vision problem. If so, have a set of glasses built with a focal distance at your rifles front sight. Keep these just for your shooting to minimize a bad affect on your current vision.

When shooting a scope,my eye that is not looking through the scope doesn't register anything to my brain.

[BLAHUT]

Even if you are ambidextrous in hand and eye ? I am, and my dominate eye changes. The dominate eye will still have an effect. Will draw the sights to the dominate eye side if even so very slightly. It is best when shooting a rifle to use the dominate eye side. Left eye dominate then shoot off the left hand side. With a pistol you are shooting in close so not as critical. With a rifle, you are shooting further away, and the cross eye dominance will show up more and more with distance. With a scope you get instance feedback and if shot with the non-dominate eye, this eye is forced to do all the work, dominate eye sees nothing, you want to shoot with both eyes open and relaxed. Now to see an eye doctor for glasses, take very accurate measurement with rifle mounted, to front sight. This is where you want the focus point to be. I have worn glasses all my life, I have herd of eye doctors who will let you bring your rifle into the office for test, I have yet to find one that will let me. Now, with shooting with a scope, you have to be more accurate, more and more accurate with higher magnification in a scope, with iron sights you can be less accurate. As in how you hole the rifle, how you squeeze and hug your rifle, how you squeeze the trigger and hold sight picture, until till the shot is gone. There are a million reasons that need to be accomplished to be accurate, none to just taking a shot, just a poke and a hope. The ones that can take a snapshot and hit what they are aiming at have a gun that fits them like a second skin, ammo that is very accurate in their gun and years of practice under their belt.

[Mint]

I don't think eye dominance is your problem. I can shoot handgun with either eye and either hand by simply moving the gun left or right to align with the eye of preference. ( both eyes open) Rifle doesn't work because when shooting right handed I can't get my left eye to align with the sights. When shooting left handed I can't get my right eye to align with the sights.

I believe your issue is probably a combination of your vision and the sights you are using. I'm now 74 and my vision isn't what it use to be. For a rear sight I prefer a peep with a fairly large opening and a narrow flat top blade in front. See if you can find a flip up tang sight for one of your lever guns. The closer your eye is to the peep the better you eye will self center in the peep. Concentrate your vision on the front sight to keep it sharp in focus. Center the somewhat fuzzy target on top of the blade and forget about the peep.

If you can't keep the front sight sharp and the target only somewhat fuzzy, you probably have a vision problem. If so, have a set of glasses built with a focal distance at your rifles front sight. Keep these just for your shooting to minimize a bad affect on your current vision.

Thanks, that makes sense. By the way I looked up Eureka Montana, you are very lucky to live there, truly amazing view.

[M-Tecs]

I don't mean what you're saying is false, you are the expert here :) I mean _in my experience_ that one sentence is not what I perceive with my eyes

As far as the geometry of it, that makes sense. If one eye is looking down the scope, the other will be looking down the side of the scope, and unless the eyes can switch easily then the person is going to see... well I dont know what it would see but I assume a strongly dominant eye person is going to see the 2 images "fighting" each other, and the scope image is not going to win, so really they just see a mish-mash of visual information that needs to be jump started with a closed eye first.

You are starting to sound vey trollish.

You can see exactly what most people see by mounting an IRON Sight rifle or shotgun and alternately opening and closing your right and left eyes.

[HWooldridge]

I’m right handed and right eye dominant - but my poor little wife is left eye dominant and right handed. We spent a few years trying to teach her long gun but no such luck (she wasn’t interested in an offset stock, and couldn’t switch sides).

However, she is a crack shot with a pistol, and I’ve seen her shoot the head off a rattlesnake with a Colt SAA in .44 Special. I would not stand still at 100 yds and let her pop off rounds at me…:mrgreen:

Everyone is different, but practice is key - no matter the game.

[Mint]

You are starting to sound vey trollish.

You can see exactly what most people see by mounting an IRON Sight rifle or shotgun and alternately opening and closing your right and left eyes.

I am sorry brother, that is not my intent. We can just move on, it's all good. You have way more than adequately taken your time out to help me, and I'm very grateful.

I'm getting tired and as a result lazy with phrasing, it's probably something lost in translation. I know what my left eye sees is different than my right eye. I was more talking about the act of someone bringing up iron sights to their face with both eyes open, their sight picture must be muddled. It has to be muddled, because its merging 2 optical images in some ratio (x% left mixed with y% right) and trying to combine them. In my case, I think the "merged image" I see with both eyes open is just different because I can choose, so if I want the right eye to "win" then it just happens without effort and the merged image I see is the same as if I closed my eye first.

[contender1]

Ok, I can see you are frustrated, and possibly not able to explain yourself in a manner to where we fully understand everything.

I will go back to my original post.

(1) GET A GOOD INSTRUCTOR to watch you shoot, and ONLY use iron sights.
(2) Go to an optometrist, and get your vision checked with the idea that you are having issues shooting a rifle. If the optometrist isn't willing to let you bring in a firearm or work with that in mind, find one who will.

As an instructor, I can most often watch a student while they shoot & identify issues or problems immediately.

Problems arise because you have several things that need to come together for it to work.
(1) Proper mounting of a firearm.
(2) Proper alignment of the body AND eyes to the sights.
(3) Realization that the eyes can NOT focus on (3) things at once. (Rear sight, front sight, and target.)
(4) Learning to get your eyes to focus on the front sight as the sharpest focal point.
(5) Proper trigger control.
(6) Proper follow through as the shot is taken.
(7) Keeping the firearm in place as you shoot.

There are other things that contribute to accurate shooting. But you need to get ONE type of sights,,,, such as your iron sights, and a good instructor to help you. THEN, you may discover what is happening, and why. And as mentioned,,, get your eyes checked.

I can't offer anything else unless I could get you on the range with me directly watching.

[KCSO]

For sighting in I prefer a black target with a white center, for scope a 1 inch square and for irons the center depends on your eyes. The other thing is to shoot with either a coach or against anyone even for just quarters. Nothing sharpens your aim like competition.

[jsizemore]

You may be able to check your state rifle and pistol association for cowboy lever action silhouette matches. There's a centerfire and rimfire versions. Folks that participate have gone through your same problem/s. Most will take the time to help. You will have to learn to shoot while standing on your hind legs.

[Geezer in NH]

From post 1 pic you need to sight in then figure how to get rid of your flinch, Go back to 22lr and practice.