Red Dot vs Clays

[scottyp99]

Hi guys, I have a Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1. I want to try Ed Harris' "The Load" (13 grains of Red Dot) Using the Lee 160 grain tumble lube boolit, paper patched. I don't have much Red Dot, but I've got plenty of Clays. How close are they? Could I safely use 13 grains of Clays?

Scotty

[HWooldridge]

The two are not directly equivalent but you could certainly start on the light side with Clays and work your way up.

In the absence of other info, I’d start at 10 grs and go from there.

[stubshaft]

Since Clays is a slower burning powder, you certainly could. I've used both in pistol and rifle cartridges and found that red Dot burns cleaner (for me) and Clays (both the Aussie and Canadian versions) are smokier. YMMV

[scottyp99]

Since Clays is a slower burning powder, you certainly could. I've used both in pistol and rifle cartridges and found that red Dot burns cleaner (for me) and Clays (both the Aussie and Canadian versions) are smokier. YMMV

There are some burn rate charts that show Clays being quite a bit faster than Red Dot, what is the real deal here?

Scotty

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Do you have a chronograph?

[scottyp99]

Do you have a chronograph?

I have a new chrono on the way, so I'll have a chrono again pretty soon. Why do you ask?

Scotty

[Leadmad]

The two are not directly equivalent but you could certainly start on the light side with Clays and work your way up.

In the absence of other info, I’d start at 10 grs and go from there.

This is exactly what I did, and yes got up to 13 grains of ADI AS30 (Clays Equvilent) with no problems at all also used Winchester AA lite equally as good in my #4 and a variety of other elderly Military surplus rifle`s

[Kosh75287]

PLEASE DO NOT try to use Clays in place of Red Dot! Their burning rates may be roughly alike, but that's where their similarities end! Clays (in my experience) gets very peaky, as pressures rise. Red Dot is slightly better about not acting like that.

[dverna]

Do you have a chronograph?

A chronograph will not tell you if a load is over pressure. I have no idea how this thinking got traction, but it is wrong.

[35 Whelen]

Hi guys, I have a Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk. 1. I want to try Ed Harris' "The Load" (13 grains of Red Dot) Using the Lee 160 grain tumble lube boolit, paper patched. I don't have much Red Dot, but I've got plenty of Clays. How close are they? Could I safely use 13 grains of Clays?

Scotty

Good question.

I referenced my Lyman 4th Edition shotshell manual and it appears that Red Dot and Clays are very close, that is, with identical components in a 12 ga. they give very similar velocities and pressures. This doesn't necessarily mean they'll perform that similarly in a rifle cartridge, but at least it's a place to start.
I've used lots of Red Dot in cartridges such as the .308, 30-06, 7.62x54 and .303 British and wouldn't hesitate to try Clays (I have GOBS of it too). As someone else suggested, 10 grs. might be a good place to start and it'd be wise to chronograph loads, comparing velocities to those obtained by Red Dot.


A chronograph will not tell you if a load is over pressure. I have no idea how this thinking got traction, but it is wrong.

A chronograph will definitely tell us if a load is over pressure and the idea probably got traction by articles such as this- SAFE LOADS WITH YOUR CHRONOGRAPH (https://loaddata.com/Article/BenchTopics/Safe-Loads-with-Your-Chronograph/36)

35W

[1006]

I use them interchangeably in light loads in the 300BLK, Clays is more accurate.

[jonp]

A chronograph will not tell you if a load is over pressure. I have no idea how this thinking got traction, but it is wrong.

+1

Start low like suggested and pay attention to the chrono for weird and erratic readings. Also watch that brass and primer pockets. Tread carefully in small steps on this

[303Guy]

PLEASE DO NOT try to use Clays in place of Red Dot! Their burning rates may be roughly alike, but that's where their similarities end! Clays (in my experience) gets very peaky, as pressures rise. Red Dot is slightly better about not acting like that.
Believe it! Clays (AS30N), is quite fine at low loadings but when one starts getting up toward 13grs, things happen. Like pressures spiking.

I have tried it. I don't advise it.

I have found that 5grs under a 215gr boolit produces low pressures and good accuracy. I don't remember what boolit I used for the 13gr charge but it wasn't the heavy. Pressures too high for cast.

[Alferd Packer]

Use 10 grs or less for either one for safety.
13 grs tended to lead a little using red dot, but 10 grs was powerful and accurate