Powder suggestions/ideas for someone on a budget

[Piłsudski]

Now that my can of H4198 is running low, I am seeing H4198 showing up at the local gun stores for $55 a pound, when it is in stock. This seems pretty rich for my blood.

I would like to find an alternative powder that works well (doesn't have to be optimum, but works well as far as ignition and position sensitivity) for my uses, which are:

7.5 x 53.5 Swiss (30-40 type loads0
308
7.62 x 54r
8mm Lebel

These are all somewhat similar in capacity, but it would be nice if I could stretch the use to:

7.62 x 39
45-70
577/450 (yes, I know, but black is even harder to get here)

I have been considering these powders:

Vihta Vuori N120
IMR 4227
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle (Lovex D060)
Accurate XMR 5744
Alliant 410
Vihta Vuori N130
Winchester 680
Norma N200
Accurate 1680
Vihta Vuori N133

Besides H4198 and IMR 4198

What I'd appreciate is steering me toward something less expensive. My first choice would be Buffalo Rifle, but even tho the local Scheel's carries Shooter's World powders, I haven't seen Buffalo Rifle. Also, I'd considered Vihta Vuori, but I don't see that around, either. The idea is, if I could get suggestions on powders others have used in similar cartridges, I could avoid buying a pound of this, a pound of that, and a pound of something else. I love retirement, but the budget is always something I must consider.

I'm looking for powders available in Wyoming, Colorado, and Montana, as I would drive and get it rather than pay hazmat -- I'd rather make a little trip out of it and I'm getting away from credit card purchases for this sort of stuff.

If anyone has some helpful suggestions on powders that would get me working without having to go thru 10 or so powders, trying to find an optimal load, I'd appreciate the help.

Thanks.

[Milky Duck]

winchester 748
AR2206 both great powders
you best bet is to look in manual as to what powders will cross over and then look in stores for whats available then buy a year or two...not ten ..years worth.
and if black is hard to get...make your own,dead easy and cheaper than a cheap thing.

[Kosh75287]

IF you can find it, Hodgdon 4895 will work in every caliber you mention. It can also be reloaded to 60% of the max charge for the appropriate bullet weight, for use with cast projectiles. It is made to order for .308 and most of the other rounds you mention. I have no idea of whether it will work in the Martini-Henry round, and very modest charges of a pistol propellant such as Unique, might be your friend with it. While not OPTIMAL for 7.62x39, it WILL produce rounds capable of operating the SKS & AK_ actions.
If H4895 is unavailable, consider IMR-3031 or Hodgdon 335. I do not know if these can be safely reduced to 60% of maximum for use with cast projectiles (Consult Hodgdon), a la H4895, but they are faster-burning and should work as well as, or better than H4895 in the AK round.

[charlie b]

These days most powders are going to cost about the same per pound, $40-60. Hodgdon just raised the prices on theirs in the past few months, from about $45 to $55.

Remember there are only a few distributors left. Hodgdon also 'owns' Winchester, IMR, Ramshot and Accurate.

[racepres]

All Great suggestions..
If I seen a couple handguns on the list...I would pounce on Red Dot.. Just got done reloading some 32SWL, and Some 8MM Mauser... both cast Boolits...both using Red Dot!!
BTW Not owned by Hodgdon..

[Gewehr-Guy]

Reloader 7 is another very usefull powder for cast, but I have not seen any in about four years. If you know any trap shooters, see if any of them would sell you a half pound of shotgun powder, like Red Dot, 700x, Green Dot, ect.
you could have a lot of shooting fun until you find your favorite powder in stock again. I have had excellent accuracy with 9 gr. of 700x and a 175 gr plain base bullets in a Krag and Springfield 03a3.

[megasupermagnum]

I haven't looked for powder since 2019, and I have heard Alliant has been less available. That said, I would put Reloader 15 on your list. I'm not familiar with most of your cartridges, but RE15 is one of the best 308 powders there are. IMR 3031 is a long time classic, at one time was considered THE 308 powder, and has a good chance of having load data for your cartridges. Really if you can buy both, I would buy those two. If you can only buy one, I'd go with IMR 3031 just for the plethora of data, especially older cartridges. I've never been a 4895 fan, I'll probably never buy it again. It's not bad, but it isn't as good as 3031.

[BLAHUT]

Look at a burn rate chart and see what is close to h4198. You can use any in that burn rate. See what is on the shelf? All powder is up in price. I do not think it will get better or more available ? IMO.

[Milky Duck]

IF you can find it, Hodgdon 4895 will work in every caliber you mention. It can also be reloaded to 60% of the max charge for the appropriate bullet weight, for use with cast projectiles. It is made to order for .308 and most of the other rounds you mention. I have no idea of whether it will work in the Martini-Henry round, and very modest charges of a pistol propellant such as Unique, might be your friend with it. While not OPTIMAL for 7.62x39, it WILL produce rounds capable of operating the SKS & AK_ actions.
If H4895 is unavailable, consider IMR-3031 or Hodgdon 335. I do not know if these can be safely reduced to 60% of maximum for use with cast projectiles (Consult Hodgdon), a la H4895, but they are faster-burning and should work as well as, or better than H4895 in the AK round.

H4895=AR2206 unless Im very much mistaken...and far from not being optimal in 7.62x39mm it is one of the best powders for the wee case,you can NEARLY just fill case and pop projectile on top....you cant over load it and velocities are not shabby.
its great in .308.

[P Flados]

You powder choices seem to be on the fast side for some of your cartridges.

This does keep the required charge per round a little lower, but this can be a false economy if your powder cost a lot more to start with.

I gave up on over the counter purchases of small containers for powder many decades ago. Eventually I ended up with Milsurp stuff for my rifles and bottle neck rounds for my TC Contender. I was lucky in finding the Milsurp versions of 680 and H335 at good prices before the current shortage.

The current choices are not nearly as good for milsurp. Midwest powder has stuff going in and out of stock and the closest one I saw for your loading needs would be their MP-540 (not terrible at $220 delivered for 8#). I did a Quickload eval based on their one recommended load that is said to give 2700 fps with 45 grs under a 147 gr in a 308. It come out pretty close to IMR 4166 or VV N140.



Quickload study for MP 540

Charge vs. velocity can help identify powders that are similar.
This powder is supposed to give 2700 fps with 45 grs under a 147 gr in a 308
Unfortunately they did not give barrel length. I guessed at 24”

Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 150, Hornady FMJ-BT 3037
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon VARGET *T 97.6 44.2 2.86 2700 95.1 45493 7222 1.206
IMR 4320 96.5 44.4 2.88 2700 95.3 44073 7263 1.211
Vihtavuori N540 *C 94.4 44.6 2.89 2700 99.0 44200 7157 1.227
Ramshot Wild Boar 89.6 44.8 2.90 2700 95.5 43794 7365 1.226
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 100.3 44.9 2.91 2700 91.4 48524 7090 1.185
Vihtavuori N140 *C 100.0 45.0 2.91 2700 97.9 46108 6973 1.205
Ramshot TAC *C 90.5 45.7 2.96 2700 93.0 46367 7268 1.206
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 100.6 46.5 3.01 2700 90.6 46988 7258 1.193

[Winger Ed.]

to look in manual as to what powders will cross over and then look in stores for whats available

This^^^

It'll take a little digging, but for cast, search for some of the pistol powders used in rifle ammo.
Red Dot and Unique are a couple of favorites.

Put in things like 'Unique powder in reduced rifle loads' 'Unique powder in .308' .
'Red Dot powder in rifle loads', things like that.

8-10-13 grains of pistol powder per rifle round will really stretch your powder supply.

[P Flados]

Just a little slower looking than the MP-540 is the Midwest powder WC 749.
https://americanreloading.com/reloading-rifle-powder/3560-wc-749-smokeless-rifle-powder-8-lbs.html



Quickload study for WC 749 Delivered Cost $220.00 for 8 lbs
$27.50 $/lb
Charge vs. velocity can help identify powders that are similar.
This powder is supposed to give 2675 fps with 45 grs under a 150 gr in a 308
Unfortunately they did not give barrel length. I guessed at 24”

Cartridge : .308 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 150, Hornady FMJ-BT 3037
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch = 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
IMR 4320 95.9 44.2 2.86 2675 95.6 44001 7260 1.223
Vihtavuori N540 *C 93.8 44.4 2.88 2675 99.2 44228 7143 1.239
Ramshot Wild Boar 89.1 44.5 2.89 2675 95.7 43789 7362 1.238
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 99.7 44.7 2.90 2675 91.7 48412 7095 1.196
Vihtavuori N140 *C 99.5 44.7 2.90 2675 98.1 46101 6964 1.216
Ramshot TAC *C 90.0 45.4 2.94 2675 93.3 46286 7270 1.218
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 100.0 46.3 3.00 2675 90.9 46881 7264 1.205

[Kraschenbirn]

For cast, I've used 'Buffalo Rifle' sucessfuly with heavy boolits in .308, 30-40, .303 Brit, 7.62 Russian and .45-70. Maybe not the best in terms of velocity, but my one of my two most accurate .308 loads uses 'Buffalo Rifle.' Like you, I haven't seen any lately but Powder Valley had some not long ago so I keep checking there.

Bill

[Piłsudski]

Gentlemen, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with me on this question.

I should have mentioned that I've properly saved for retirement with regards to Unique and Bullseye (for handguns). But I also wanted something up to the ~1800 f/s range for gas checked cast boolits in the cartridges mentioned.

Also, other than perhaps 270 and a bunch of milsurp I have on hand, I'm converted over totally to boolits for everything else.

Yes, the powders I've looked at are on the fast side. I do have a can of 3031 that I've onlly tried for 45-70 so far, and that would also be an option.

One of my big issues has been with the 577/450. There are so many conflicting ideas about loading for it that I've almost determined to give up and go with black for it. It is my understanding that Venturino recommends 5744 for a lot of cast boolit shooting, and I've also understood that this is the Lovex version of the powder, not what's sold as 5744 nowadays. I would like to give a go with Lovex/Buffalo Rifle with it before I give up and go to black for it. If Buffalo Rifle worked for it, that would be so useful and perhaps an 8# jug would be in order.

I have an old version of Quick Load that I've played around with -- it seems as if a lot of powders could be used, but it of course doesn't tell me what I might expect on the bench with such loads.

You have given me suggestions to run down and I very much appreciate your imput!

(PS: like I said, spending money on stuff is an issue, and I'd like to save what I can to buy some more moulds. The Swiss used a goofy projectile for the 1889, and I can see some experimenting might be a fun thing to do for it.)

[charlie b]

Forgot to ask, what do you shoot at with cast? If this is for shorter range (100-200yd) plinking stuff then I'd gravitate toward pistol/shotgun powders. Red Dot, 700X, 2400, etc. You get a ton more shots per pound and it is kinda fun shooting. Also hones your wind shooting skills. These faster powders also work well with lighter bullets, which means you can cast more per pound.

I just prefer to shoot a bit faster, 1800-2000fps with the .308, so I go to the rifle powders. 4198, 3031, 4064. Which one depends on the weight of the bullet I am pushing.

[mnewcomb59]

How about pulldown powder? How about $220 shipped for 8 pounds? Check out americanreloading.com. All powders are 20% off with a voucher right now, so that $220 is more like $180 shipped. https://americanreloading.com/266-reloading-rifle-powder

[MostlyLeverGuns]

For cast boolits in the cartridges listed, Buffalo Rifle(Accurate 5744 Clone) should give you the velocity you are looking for along with very good(the best?) accuracy of the powders listed. Some of the ball/spherical powders work OK, even at the lower pressures. I have used BLC-2, H335, Accurate 2200 and other 'military powders' and others with 'medium, medium fast' rifle powders without incident in the 308, 300 Savage, 32 Special, 35 Rem, 30-30, 8x57 and similar cartridges. Sometimes there can be a powder residue, ghost grains, and very 'dirty' burning but accuracy can be good. More cleaning is advised when using such powders below their designed pressure levels. DO NOT reduce charges with any of the 'slow' rifle powders due to problems with occasional pressure spikes. The very slow powders used by the case full can provide good shooting and be economical at the right price. There are folks on this site that do just that.

[waksupi]

I would check GIbrass.com to see what Jeff has in stock that may work.

[Piłsudski]

Gentlemen:

I have considered using pulled military powder. I contacted Jeff Bartlett regarding IMR 7383, which I learned about when digging around for 7.5 x 53.5 Swiss loads. My plan was to get two kegs, or about 14# of the stuff. This seemed as if it would work for everything (namely, 7.5 x 53.5, 8mm Lebel, 308, and 7.62 x 54r), but when I thought about subjecting my Martini Henry to the stuff, the idea that it was "peaky" and that the big 577/450 case doesn't seem to behave like straight walled cartridges (e.g., 45-70) put me off of the idea. Since then, I've almost decided to keep 577/450 as a "special case" (pun intended) and try to find some Swiss 1 1/2 F for it, and finish off my remaining H4198 for it.

GI Brass: Should I reconsider and go for the IMR 7383, do you think? The Swiss guys seem to think it's workable, and it "should" work for 8mm Lebel, 308, and 7.62 x 54r. I even saw one guy asking about it in an SKS.

What I'm shooting: paper. I'm at the range shooting at paper (but keep in mind that our range goes well over 1000 yards, and I would like to try at least 577/450 at longer ranges), however I would like to be able to take any of these rifles for a prairie dog session, which I think would require more performance than Unique can offer. Don't get me wrong: Unique is like Automatic Transmission Fluid to me, one of the wonders of modern man. But it does have some limits.

Moulds and Unique: Unique is great for 7.62 x 54r, because I can use my Lee C312-155-2R from the 7.62 x 39 for it. But, for 308, my only mould is the RCBS .30-180-FN, which will also be tried on my 7.5 x 53.5 at first. The Lebel gets the Lee C329-205-1R boolits, again, a heavy boolit. So, for the 7.62 x 54r I want a Lyman 314299 or similar, and for the Swiss, there will be something, probably from Accurate, but I don't know yet. I may try to size the Lee C312-155-2R down for the 308, but I haven't tried it yet. The 45-70 is definitely a Unique gun now, as the only mould I have for it is the "Collar Button" Lyman 457130. The Martini gets either the Accurate 475X or the RCBS 476-400-SWC meant for a 480 Ruger. The point here is that for the 7.62 x 54r and the 45-70, Unique is the powder, but for the others, less so, and ultimately I'm also thinking about the RCBS 325 gr boolit for the 45-70, in case I should see my older boy in Texas and take after a hog or two. It is not a gun for heavy boolits at all, however, and that's all the heavier I want to go for it.

What I've considered optimal for this menagerie has been Buffalo Rifle. I've also thought about Vihtavuori N130, if I could find it, but have no reloading info, as the Lyman boolit books (#3 and #4) don't list it for what I'm trying to do. (It doesn't list Swiss, Lebel, or 577/450, either. Venturino is pretty quiet about the M-H. I read somewhere that he'd tried it but didn't like messing with it, so he dropped it. I wrote him once about getting some help, but didn't hear from him.) So, I guess that IMR 7383 wouldn't be that much greater of a problem, given I'd need to work up my own loads for most of this myself, anyway.

Maybe i ought to think about doing for the IMR 7383, finding some Buffalo Rifle when and where I can, and then even going for some Vihtavuori N130 sometime down the road?

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions on this. As you see, I haven't chosen some of the easiest rounds to play with, and I feel like I'm flopping around with my problems, trying to solve everything at once.

[Tedly]

I'm loading the previously mentioned cartridges with cast and exclusively with Shooter's World Buffalo rifle / Lovex DO60 . If you can get some , you'll like it

[MT Gianni]

Pilsudski, Post or PM your location, or how far you're willing to travel.