Calculating Permanent Cavity Wound Mass from Fackler Wound Profiles

[pettypace]

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and ... the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

-- FBI Special Agent Urey Patrick: "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" (http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf)



Let's start with an American icon: Here's Fackler's wound profile for the 45 ACP GI hardball:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/45_acp_fmj.png

The permanent cavity is just a long, skinny cylinder with a diameter of 1.14 centimeters and length of 66.5 centimeters. So, its volume is easy to calculate. Here's a calculation string you can just copy and paste into a google search to get the answer:

3.14 * 1.14 * 1.14 / 4 * 66.5

Google returns "67.842369." Let's call it about 68. (68 what? 68 cubic centimeters).

But there are three problems with using this rough calculation as a measure of effectiveness. First, a round nose bullet pushes some tissue aside instead of crushing it as a full wadcutter would. Second, at the very end of its penetration, the bullet is going too slow to do full damage. And third, at some point, the bullet has likely exited the target and damages no more tissue.

In his book Bullet Penetration, Duncan MacPherson addressed these three problems: First, by using a bullet shape factor (about 0.7 for round nose bullets). Second, by discounting the last 3" of penetration where the bullet is going too slow to do full damage. And third, by not counting more than 38 centimeters (15") of penetration (after which the bullet has likely exited the target).

Applying MacPherson's adjustments, the calculation looks like this:

3.14 * 1.14 * 1.14 / 4 * 38 * 0.7

And Google returns about 27.

An obvious question is "27 what?"

The answer: 27 cubic centimeters of permanent cavity volume in the first 38 centimeters (or 15") of penetration.

Or, given that the density of tissue is approximately 1 gram per cubic centimeter, we could just as well call it 27 grams of tissue crushed in the first 15" of penetration.

Of course, 27 grams doesn't mean much by itself. But the same process can now be used to compare 45 hardball to other cartridges.

How, for example, does .45 hardball compare to the classic .38 Special FBI load? Or to a .22 LR hollow point? Or to a 12 gauge slug? Or to a target wadcutter from a .38 snubby? Or to a 30-40 Krag with ball ammo?

NOTE: Fackler's wound profiles are available here: https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2001-Vol5No2.pdf

[pettypace]

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and ... the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

-- FBI Special Agent Urey Patrick: "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" (http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf)



To gain perspective sooner rather than later, here's Fackler's wound profile for a 12 gauge rifled slug:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/12_gauge_slug.png

And here's the calculation string for the permanent cavity volume (or wound mass) using a nose factor of about 0.8 for a mushroomed bullet and ignoring the last 3" (or about 7.6 cm) of penetration:

3.14 * 2.8 * 2.8 / 4 * (36 - 7.6) * 0.8

Copying that calculation into Google gives a wound mass of about 140 grams.

[pettypace]

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and ... the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

-- FBI Special Agent Urey Patrick: "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" (http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf)



And here's the other end of the scale:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/22_LR_HP.png

Here's the MacPherson calculation:

3.14 * .96 * .96 / 4 * (26.5 - 7.6) * 0.8

...which Google evaluates to about 11 cubic centimeters (or grams of wound mass).

NOTE: This load does not meet the FBI recommended minimum penetration requirement.

[44MAG#1]

VIRGEL has made a believer out of me.

[44MAG#1]

On the first example on the 45 GI hardball I got (.449 X .449) X .7854) X 26.2 = 4.15 CI
That is the country boy way of figuring.
Is it correct?

[44MAG#1]

On the 12 Gauge example I got 1.1024 X 1.1024 X .7854 X 11.8 X.8 = 8.537 CI.

[pettypace]

On the first example on the 45 GI hardball I got (.449 X .449) X .7854) X 26.2 = 4.15 CI
That is the country boy way of figuring.
Is it correct?

The math is OK. But a bigger question is whether it makes more sense to use the full penetration path, or instead, to consider only the first 15" of penetration as MacPherson recommended.

Here's another wound profile:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/6-5_carcano.png

If not for the Kennedy assassination, it's unlikely Fackler would have drawn a wound profile for the 6.5 Carcano. But Fackler pointed out that the Carcano wound profile is typical of all the first generation FMJ military rifle bullets including the 1903 Springfield, the 6mm Lee Navy, and the 30-40 Krag.

With that in mind, here's the MacPherson calculation for the first 15" of penetration of a 30-40 Krag FMJ:

3.14 * .76 * .76 / 4 * 38 * 0.7 ==> 12 grams of wound mass!

In Gunshot Injuries (page 69), Colonel LaGarde wrote:

Colonel Winter and Captain McAndrew, Medical Corps, U. S. A., have related the following incident to the author which bears upon the failure in stopping power of our service rifle: In 1907 a Moro charged the guard at Jolo, P. I. When he was within 100 yards, the entire guard opened fire on him. When he had reached within 5 yards of the firing party he stumbled and fell and while in the prone position a trumpeter killed him by shooting through the head with a .45-caliber Colt's revolver. There were ten wounds in his body from the service rifle. Three of the wounds were located in the chest, one in the abdomen and the remainder had taken effect in the extremities. There were no bones broken.

I know that's just an anecdote. But it's an anecdote that should give pause for thought about just where in the penetration path the wound mass (or permanent cavity volume) accumulates. MacPherson had good reason to focus on the first 15" of penetration.

[44MAG#1]

I know that's just an anecdote. But it's an anecdote that should give pause for thought about just where in the penetration path the wound mass (or permanent cavity volume) accumulates. MacPherson had good reason to focus on the first 15" of penetration.

When one looks at the average human male 15 inches should get the job done. It isn't hard to use a ruler to determine the thickness of the average male. I am 5-10 and 173 pounds. 15 inches will more than sufficiently penetrate to my vital organs.
That isn't hard to figure out.
One doesn't need the penetration to penetrate a Cape Buffalo to suffice in a human SD situation.
I want more than enough. Just like if I go on a trip and figure 1000 dollars is enough I will take 2000 dollars. If I go to Bass Pro and think 100 dollars will be enough I will take 150 dollars. Same with SD. I would rather have a little more than just enough. Now the perfect shot placement boys may only need a 25 Auto I bet few of them carry one.

[pettypace]

When one looks at the average human male 15 inches should get the job done. It isn't hard to use a ruler to determine the thickness of the average male. I am 5-10 and 173 pounds. 15 inches will more than sufficiently penetrate to my vital organs.
That isn't hard to figure out.
One doesn't need the penetration to penetrate a Cape Buffalo to suffice in a human SD situation.
I want more than enough. Just like if I go on a trip and figure 1000 dollars is enough I will take 2000 dollars. If I go to Bass Pro and think 100 dollars will be enough I will take 150 dollars. Same with SD. I would rather have a little more than just enough. Now the perfect shot placement boys may only need a 25 Auto I bet few of them carry one.

That makes sense.

But MacPherson wasn't making a recommendation about maximum penetration depth. He was only saying that for comparing the likely self-defense effectiveness of ammunition, it makes more sense to compare the wound mass for the first 15" than for, say, the first 24".

And, of course, barrier penetration needs to be factored in. If the bad guy is shooting from behind a 2 foot oak tree, that 30-40 Krag (with just 12 grams of wound mass in the first 15" of gelatin) will be more effective than a 12 gauge slug (with 120 grams of wound mass in the first 15" of gelatin).

[44MAG#1]

That makes sense.

But MacPherson wasn't making a recommendation about maximum penetration depth. He was only saying that for comparing the likely self-defense effectiveness of ammunition, it makes more sense to compare the wound mass for the first 15" than for, say, the first 24".
Yes but wouldn't that fall under "Common Sense"? Unless someone was a gigantic person one would not need 24 inches of penetration to reach the vitals of a person. But one never knows who they may encounter that may want to do them in. Better to have more than enough than not enough in case one needs it.


And, of course, barrier penetration needs to be factored in. If the bad guy is shooting from behind a 2 foot oak tree, that 30-40 Krag (with just 12 grams of wound mass in the first 15" of gelatin) will be more effective than a 12 gauge slug (with 120 grams of wound mass in the first 15" of gelatin).
Again isn't that "Common Sense" as should be used like we used in the first senario in this post?

[sailcaptain]

Back in, 1968-69, we were shooting at a open at Yale University Small Bore range. Back then, the Winchester Museum was in the same area. So it was our side trip after the shooting weekend. I was fascinated with the extend of the weaponry, from all the years and the sizes of some of the weapons that were wielded.
That being said, that week they were putting on an exhibition using the 45 ACP.
For this they used a WW II 1911 Pistol and a Thompson Machine gun. Both being a single round shot.
They had a ballistic dummy of a 6 foot 150 pound man with his right arm up next to his ear and only the small finger extended upward.
The 45 caliber bullet hit the small finger, push the arm backwards and snapped his back under shoulder blade. That’s the force of a 45 ACP. How it compares to the 38 Special etc, I wouldn’t know for sure, wouldn’t want to be hit by either, but I respect the force of each.
Those bullets and our reloads play for keeps.

[44MAG#1]

I had a buddy that was in WW2 and he said the instructor told them that a 45 Auto would stop a galloping horse if shot in the chest head on just like he had hit a brick wall.
That is incredible power.

[pettypace]

I guess that's why "They All Fall to Hardball" as clearly demonstrated in this video (https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/9mm-vs-45-acp-retro-edition/)! (just scroll down a bit)

[44MAG#1]

I guess that's why "They All Fall to Hardball" as clearly demonstrated in this video (https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/9mm-vs-45-acp-retro-edition/)! (just scroll down a bit)

Now you are getting on with the program. Learning is a great thing.

[M-Tecs]

I guess that's why "They All Fall to Hardball" as clearly demonstrated in this video (https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/9mm-vs-45-acp-retro-edition/)! (just scroll down a bit)

Firsthand from some vets that I know that used the 45 ACP ball in combat they weren't that impressed until they got two or three hits with the Thompson or Grease gun.

[44MAG#1]

One can get a power factor over 200 with a 230 gr FMJRN bullet which is no small change.
All that momentum and smashing power will get it done
It has the knock them down and stomp them ability.

[pettypace]

One can get a power factor over 200 with a 230 gr FMJRN bullet which is no small change.
All that momentum and smashing power will get it done
It has the knock them down and stomp them ability.

Here's an anecdote about the "knock them down and stomp them ability of the 1911 with ball ammo. It's from the "Stopping Power" chapter of Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes:


A European patrol-sergeant, hearing shooting and shouts of "Ch'iang-Tao" (robber), rushed to a rice shop which seemed to be the centre of the tumult, and there saw an armed Chinese robbing the till. The Chinese immediately opened fire on the sergeant with an automatic pistol at about 6 yards, firing several shots until his pistol jammed. Fortunately none of the shots took effect, and meanwhile the sergeant returned the fire swiftly and effectively with a 45 Colt automatic, commencing at about 10 feet and firing his sixth and last shot at 3 feet as he rapidly closed in on his opponent. Later, it was found that of those six shots, four had struck fleshy parts of the body, passing clean through, while one bullet remained in the shoulder and another had lodged near the heart. Yet, in spite of all this, the robber was still on his feet and was knocked unconscious by the butt of the sergeant's pistol as he was attempting to escape by climbing over the counter. Here we have two heavy jacketed bullets which did not waste their substance on mere penetration, one of them inflicting a wound which came near to being fatal. In theory these two heavy bullets should have stopped the man in his tracks, but the facts are as related. Can anyone explain?

If you're still thinking in terms of "knock them down and stomp them ability" instead of in terms of bullet penetration and permanent cavity wound mass, you're missing the point of this thread.

[44MAG#1]

Here's an anecdote about the "knock them down and stomp them ability of the 1911 with ball ammo. It's from the "Stopping Power" chapter of Shooting to Live by Fairbairn and Sykes:


A European patrol-sergeant, hearing shooting and shouts of "Ch'iang-Tao" (robber), rushed to a rice shop which seemed to be the centre of the tumult, and there saw an armed Chinese robbing the till. The Chinese immediately opened fire on the sergeant with an automatic pistol at about 6 yards, firing several shots until his pistol jammed. Fortunately none of the shots took effect, and meanwhile the sergeant returned the fire swiftly and effectively with a 45 Colt automatic, commencing at about 10 feet and firing his sixth and last shot at 3 feet as he rapidly closed in on his opponent. Later, it was found that of those six shots, four had struck fleshy parts of the body, passing clean through, while one bullet remained in the shoulder and another had lodged near the heart. Yet, in spite of all this, the robber was still on his feet and was knocked unconscious by the butt of the sergeant's pistol as he was attempting to escape by climbing over the counter. Here we have two heavy jacketed bullets which did not waste their substance on mere penetration, one of them inflicting a wound which came near to being fatal. In theory these two heavy bullets should have stopped the man in his tracks, but the facts are as related. Can anyone explain?

If you're still thinking in terms of "knock them down and stomp them ability" instead of in terms of bullet penetration and permanent cavity wound mass, you're missing the point of this thread.

That is interesting. I would rather had the 45 than a 25 Auto or a 380 Auto with FMJ ammo.
The power factor of the 45 Auto is awesome plus it has the momentum to shove it's target to great effect.

[pettypace]

The power factor of the 45 Auto is awesome plus it has the momentum to shove it's target to great effect.

Don't count on momentum! GI .45 hardball has more or less the same momentum as a fast ball from a good little league pitcher.

[44MAG#1]

More or less the same as a fast ball pitch from a good little league pitcher.

Then that pitcher must have a super man arm.
Momentum that great is something you don't find everyday in a packable launch pad that can be easily carried and fired.

[pettypace]

Then that pitcher must have a super man arm.
Momentum that great is something you don't find everyday in a packable launch pad that can be easily carried and fired.

Nope! Not a "super man arm" --- just a good little league pitcher.

But if you're still thinking in terms of momentum, you're missing the point of this thread. Here's the Urey Patrick quote again:


The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity. The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and ... the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

-- FBI Special Agent Urey Patrick: "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" (http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf)


It's not about momentum. It's about penetration and permanent cavity wound mass.

[dverna]

I have stopped worrying about stuff like this. From what I have read over the years the .357 mag with the 125 gr JHP is the most effective self defense pistol round in common use. That may be total BS but it is what I recall.

But I prefer carrying a semi-auto so that "fact" does not do me any good.

On the subject of "wound channel", I take a simplistic view. With the recoil of a .357 compared to a 9mm, I can get three "good" shots with the 9mm compared to 2 with the .357 in the same amount of time with a gun that I can easily carry. I have no 'scientific' reason to believe this, but I feel better with three hits than two hits. If I miss a shot, I feel better about getting 2 hits instead of one.

I also prefer having more rounds to work with, so the .357 was not what I selected.

Shooting in self defense is different than popping a deer. First, the target is aggressive and may keep on coming. More rounds and more hits are useful to stop the threat. Pass thought shots can hit others and that can be an issue; unless on the battlefield.

With a deer, it is rare to get more than one or two shots. If Bambi dies after running 20 ft or 100 yards it does not make much of a difference. Having the bullet exit makes tracking easier so there is an advantage to a bullet that passes through.

It is interesting to read stuff like this. The challenge is how one applies it to selecting the weapon, caliber and bullet for the task at hand.

[44MAG#1]

Nope! Not a "super man arm" --- just a good little league pitcher.

But if you're still thinking in terms of momentum, you're missing the point of this thread. Here's the Urey Patrick quote again:



It's not about momentum. It's about penetration and permanent cavity wound mass.

So the bullet has no momentum? If it doesn't have momentum then it can't be moving. If it is moving it must have momentum. If it doesn't have momentum how can it travel from cartridge case to the target?
Does momentum have anything to do with energy? Or does energy something have to do with momentum?
Is each one a link in the chain of lethality or is lethality a one link chain?

[pettypace]

I have stopped worrying about stuff like this. From what I have read over the years the .357 mag with the 125 gr JHP is the most effective self defense pistol round in common use. That may be total BS but it is what I recall.

That's not BS. Fackler did a wound profile for 125 grain JSP from a .357 Magnum:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/357_125gr_sp.png


Here's MacPherson's calculation for wound mass:

3.14 * 1.8 *1.8 / 4 * (36 - 7.6) * 0.8 ==> about 58 grams.

To put that into perspective: 9mm hardball is about 16 grams, .45 hardball is about 27 grams, a good .45 ACP JHP should be about 58 grams, and a 12 gauge slug is about 140 grams.



But I prefer carrying a semi-auto so that "fact" does not do me any good.

On the subject of "wound channel", I take a simplistic view. With the recoil of a .357 compared to a 9mm, I can get three "good" shots with the 9mm compared to 2 with the .357 in the same amount of time with a gun that I can easily carry. I have no 'scientific' reason to believe this, but I feel better with three hits than two hits. If I miss a shot, I feel better about getting 2 hits instead of one.

I also prefer having more rounds to work with, so the .357 was not what I selected.



That all makes perfect sense. And the MacPherson wound mass for good 9mm JHP ammo, is close to 40 grams with about the same penetration as the 125 grain .357 Magnum ammo profiled above. So, three shots of 9mm on target could damage as much tissue as two shots of .357 magnum, as well as having (I think?) a slightly higher probability of hitting something important. I think your conclusion is the same reached by the vast majority of law enforcement agencies in the country.



Shooting in self defense is different than popping a deer. First, the target is aggressive and may keep on coming. More rounds and more hits are useful to stop the threat. Pass though shots can hit others and that can be an issue; unless on the battlefield.


The danger of pass-through shots is sometimes pooh-poohed as being insignificant when compared to the danger of the much higher velocity of an outright miss. But years ago I read in Cartidges of the World a sad story about a young girl who accidentally killed her younger brother with a pellet gun. It made me realize that it doesn't take much penetration to reach the vitals of a child.





It is interesting to read stuff like this. The challenge is how one applies it to selecting the weapon, caliber and bullet for the task at hand.

Exactly!

[44MAG#1]

What barrel length was that 357 Mag?
What was the momentum of
that 125 grain?
A 230 grain 45 Auto at 757 FPS will equal the momentum.
I bet the blast from that 125 grain load would clear the sinus if fired in close space.

[pettypace]

What barrel length was that 357 Mag?
What was the momentum of
that 125 grain?
A 230 grain 45 Auto at 757 FPS will equal the momentum.
I bet the blast from that 125 grain load would clear the sinus if fired in close space.

I don't understand the infatuation with momentum. The point of looking at wound profiles and thinking in terms of bullet penetration and permanent cavity wound mass is to concentrate attention on the damage the bullet does to the target rather than on some more or less abstract physical property of the bullet.

Two bullets can have exactly the same momenta and yet have much different wound profiles.

The obvious example would be a .45 GI hardball compared to a 230 grain XTP loaded to the same velocity. The wound profile for the .45 GI hardball is shown in the first post of this thread -- a .45 caliber hole (actually somewhat smaller because of the round nose shape) extending about 26 inches deep with a calculated MacPherson wound mass of about 27 grams.

With exactly the same momentum as GI hardball, a 230 grain XTP would likely make about a .65 caliber hole (only a bit smaller because the mushroom shape is flatter than a round nose) extending about 15 inches deep with a calculated MacPherson wound mass of about 55 grams.

Those are quite different results with exactly the same momenta.

That does not necessarily mean that one bullet choice is better than the other. There may be a perfectly logical reason to prefer the deeper penetration of the unexpanded bullet. For example, a grizzly bear might warrant more than 15 inches of penetration to reach vital organs. Or, maybe international convention prohibits the military use of expanding bullets so nobody gets badly hurt in a war.

[44MAG#1]

I don't understand the infatuation with momentum. The point of looking at wound profiles and thinking in terms of bullet penetration and permanent cavity wound mass is to concentrate attention on the damage the bullet does to the target rather than on some more or less abstract physical property of the bullet.

Two bullets can have exactly the same momenta and yet have much different wound profiles.

The obvious example would be a .45 GI hardball compared to a 230 grain XTP loaded to the same velocity. The wound profile for the .45 GI hardball is shown in the first post of this thread -- a .45 caliber hole (actually somewhat smaller because of the round nose shape) extending about 26 inches deep with a calculated MacPherson wound mass of about 27 grams.

With exactly the same momentum as GI hardball, a 230 grain XTP would likely make about a .65 caliber hole (only a bit smaller because the mushroom shape is flatter than a round nose) extending about 15 inches deep with a calculated MacPherson wound mass of about 55 grams.

Those are quite different results with exactly the same momenta.

That does not necessarily mean that one bullet choice is better than the other. There may be a perfectly logical reason to prefer the deeper penetration of the unexpanded bullet. For example, a grizzly bear might warrant more than 15 inches of penetration to reach vital organs. Or, maybe international convention prohibits the military use of expanding bullets so nobody gets badly hurt in a war.

If a person gets hit will all that momentum it will flatten them like they have been hit with a wrecking ball. It will knock the stuffing out of anything. It is like a bowling ball knocking down a bowling pin.

[M-Tecs]

I don't understand the infatuation with momentum. The point of looking at wound profiles and thinking in terms of bullet penetration and permanent cavity wound mass is to concentrate attention on the damage the bullet does to the target rather than on some more or less abstract physical property of the bullet.

Two bullets can have exactly the same momenta and yet have much different wound profiles.



Very much so. My now deceased brother-in-law was special ops in Vietnam a couple of years before we supposably had anyone in the field 1959 - 1962. He was wounded twice in Vietnam and twice later in a LE career. He worked and was wounded during the Watts riots in 1965. He stated that the 45 ACP blowing people of their feet was BS in his firsthand experience. As LE he fatally shot two people. I don't remember what load he carried as LE. I do know after he retired from that 4-armed men tried robbing his shop. He fired 4 shots from a 6" 357 with 125 grain HP's. Three died before the LE arrived. The fourth lived but was paralyzed the rest of his life. He loved the 357 with 125 HP's and he had a dim view of the 45 ACP in comparison.

I was too young for Vietnam, but my best friend's older 1/2 brother was not. He was a tunnel rat. After some close calls he contacted his stepdad to send over a S&W 29. While his stepdad saw extensive combat in WWII he was not a gun guy so he asked my dad for help locating one. None were to be had on short notice so a Ruger single action 44 Mag was sent over. Even for that dad I dove 250 miles to pick it up in Fargo. The 44 Mag ended the close call saturations. He did still carry the 1911 as a backup. On his second enlistment get got a helicopter pilot slot. He was shot down three times but never wounded. I don't know what he carried as a pilot. He was killed in a helicopter crash 9 months after he got out. The main rotor hub failed on the acceptance flight of a new helicopter.

From my personal experience I have hard deer recoveries with the 270 Win, 338 Win Mags and 375 H&H Mag. when using bullets designed for much heavier game that did not expand. On the other hand when I used 55 grain soft points out of 223's, 22-250's or 220 Swifts I had very very easy recoveries on deer and antelope.

[M-Tecs]

If a person gets hit will all that momentum it will flatten them like they have been hit with a wrecking ball. It will knock the stuffing out of anything. It is like a bowling ball knocking down a bowling pin.

Nope, nope and nope. Easy to test. Take a dead racoon or coyote and hand it from a long cord and shot it. It will hardly move.

For every force there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is a little overly simplistic but if you are holding a 1911 45acp and someone else shoots a 45 ACP at you and perfectly centers the barrel with their shot the reaction will be very similar to you just firing the 45 ACP

[44MAG#1]

Nope, nope and nope. Easy to test. Take a dead racoon or coyote and hand it from a long cord and shot it. It will hardly move.

For every force there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is a little overly simplistic but if you are holding a 1911 45acp and someone else shoots a 45 ACP at you and perfectly centers the barrel with their shot the reaction will be very similar to you just firing the 45 ACP
Momentum is great with a 45 Auto. All these people who have, in the past, have said so.

[M-Tecs]

Momentum is great with a 45 Auto. All these people who have, in the past, have said so.

The myth, the legend and reality of 45 ball used in combat varies greatly depending on how much actual experience they have with it. I've only known a couple of guys that used a Thompson or M3 in combat and they spoke very highly of it with multiple hits. Based on actual accounts 50% one shot stops is more realistic.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_stopping_power.htm
Back in the 1960's, big bore fans asserted that .45 ACP 230 grain ball ammo would achieve 95% one shot stops. Subsequent research has shown that 230grain FMJ .45 ACP loads actually provide about 60-64% one shot stops and several smaller calibers using expanding bullets are more effective stoppers.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/range-accident-reveals-45-stopping-power-or-not/

This mild-mannered teenager, not belligerent nor under the influence of any drugs, absorbed a full-power, hollow-point 45ACP bullet, at point-blank range, and subsequently displayed scarcely more than moderate discomfort! He was able to walk under his own power, never lost consciousness, never collapsed, and reportedly joked with ambulance attendants on his way to the hospital!”

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/handgun-ammunition-stopping-power-update

Handgun Ammunition Stopping Power Update
NCJ Number 204549
Journal Law and Order Volume: 52 Issue: 1 Dated: January 2004 Pages: 55-59
Author(s)
Evan Marshall
Date Published January 2004
Length 5 pages
Annotation
This article presents a survey for the best handgun bullet to “stop” a fight.
Abstract
A “stop” is defined as one shot to anywhere on the torso, not counting head, neck, or extremity shots; where the subject stops shooting, if shooting, or stops striking blows; and runs no more than 10 feet, if running. This study deals with what happens in the first few seconds after the shooting, and does not factor in the eventual lethality of the wound or total recovery from the wound. It is the first update of ammunition effectiveness results since the September 11 attacks. In the calibers typically used for backup and off-duty, only the results from shorter barrels are listed. When reviewing the results, the ones with the most shootings are the ones with the most statistical validity. Ten shootings were required with each particular load. The results show that the 32 ACP has a place in law enforcement, not as a backup, but as a hideout. The results from the 380 ACP are similar to the standard pressure 38 Special. The .38 Special snub is an excellent backup weapon. The best 9 mm police loads are the 115- and 124/127-grain JHPs driven to +P+ pressures. Those wanting an auto-pistol with .357 Magnum-like performance, which from duty guns had stopping power up to 96 percent, should consider the 357 SIG caliber. The .40 S&W is considered as a “bridge caliber.” The 45 ACP is an effective caliber. The large diameter and heavy weight of the bullet are the foundation for the “momentum” theory of stopping power.

[44MAG#1]

The myth, the legend and reality of 45 ball used in combat varies greatly depending on how much actual experience they have with it. I've only known a couple of guys that used a Thompson or M3 in combat and they spoke very highly of it with multiple hits. Based on actual accounts 50% one shot stops is more realistic.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_stopping_power.htm
Back in the 1960's, big bore fans asserted that .45 ACP 230 grain ball ammo would achieve 95% one shot stops. Subsequent research has shown that 230grain FMJ .45 ACP loads actually provide about 60-64% one shot stops and several smaller calibers using expanding bullets are more effective stoppers.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/range-accident-reveals-45-stopping-power-or-not/

This mild-mannered teenager, not belligerent nor under the influence of any drugs, absorbed a full-power, hollow-point 45ACP bullet, at point-blank range, and subsequently displayed scarcely more than moderate discomfort! He was able to walk under his own power, never lost consciousness, never collapsed, and reportedly joked with ambulance attendants on his way to the hospital!”

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/handgun-ammunition-stopping-power-update

Handgun Ammunition Stopping Power Update
NCJ Number 204549
Journal Law and Order Volume: 52 Issue: 1 Dated: January 2004 Pages: 55-59
Author(s)
Evan Marshall
Date Published January 2004
Length 5 pages
Annotation
This article presents a survey for the best handgun bullet to “stop” a fight.
Abstract
A “stop” is defined as one shot to anywhere on the torso, not counting head, neck, or extremity shots; where the subject stops shooting, if shooting, or stops striking blows; and runs no more than 10 feet, if running. This study deals with what happens in the first few seconds after the shooting, and does not factor in the eventual lethality of the wound or total recovery from the wound. It is the first update of ammunition effectiveness results since the September 11 attacks. In the calibers typically used for backup and off-duty, only the results from shorter barrels are listed. When reviewing the results, the ones with the most shootings are the ones with the most statistical validity. Ten shootings were required with each particular load. The results show that the 32 ACP has a place in law enforcement, not as a backup, but as a hideout. The results from the 380 ACP are similar to the standard pressure 38 Special. The .38 Special snub is an excellent backup weapon. The best 9 mm police loads are the 115- and 124/127-grain JHPs driven to +P+ pressures. Those wanting an auto-pistol with .357 Magnum-like performance, which from duty guns had stopping power up to 96 percent, should consider the 357 SIG caliber. The .40 S&W is considered as a “bridge caliber.” The 45 ACP is an effective caliber. The large diameter and heavy weight of the bullet are the foundation for the “momentum” theory of stopping power.

So with all this being said momentum either doesn't count for anything or doesn't exist.
If it doesn't exist, how come?
If it exists why is it unimportant?
I thought weight of mass (which can be weighed) times speed equals momentum.
Am I wrong about momentum?

[M-Tecs]

So with all this being said momentum either doesn't count for anything or doesn't exist.
If it doesn't exist, how come?
If it exists why is it unimportant?
I thought weight of mass (which can be weighed) times speed equals momentum.
Am I wrong about momentum?

Why does it have to be one or the other? verse being one part of the equation? An example is an arrow with a sharp broadhead verse a bludgeon point https://www.3riversarchery.com/saunders-bludgeon-screw-in-blunt.html

The momentum is equal yet lethality is vastly different. For squirrels and rabbits the bludgeon points are very lethal not so much for larger game. I shot a raccoon with one and it bounced off. The second shot was with a broadhead and was fatal.

In college a drunk buddy stepped in front of a bus coming to a stop at the bus stop. He bounced off the front and fell down. He only had minor scrapes and bruises. The momentum off a bus going 5 mph is huge.

[44MAG#1]

Why does it have to be one or the other? verse being one part of the equation? An example is an arrow with a sharp broadhead verse a bludgeon point https://www.3riversarchery.com/saunders-bludgeon-screw-in-blunt.html

The momentum is equal yet lethality is vastly different. For squirrels and rabbits the bludgeon points are very lethal not so much for larger game. I shot a raccoon with one and it bounced off. The second shot was with a broadhead and was fatal.

In college a drunk buddy stepped in front of a bus coming to a stop at the bus stop. He bounced off the front and fell down. He only had minor scrapes and bruises. The momentum off a bus going 5 mph is huge.

Your drunk buddy had that massive momentum was spread out. Not concentrated in one spot.
Concentration is the important part.
When nailing a 2X4 with a16 penny nail I would rather use a claw hammer than a tack hammer.

[pettypace]

So with all this being said momentum either doesn't count for anything or doesn't exist.
If it doesn't exist, how come?
If it exists why is it unimportant?
I thought weight of mass (which can be weighed) times speed equals momentum.
Am I wrong about momentum?

Momentum certainly exists. It's equal to mass times velocity. And it's certainly not unimportant. It's just that it doesn't tell us much about the likely effectiveness of ammunition. Penetration and permanent cavity wound mass provide more useful information.

How about another lesson from Dr. Fackler?

Here's Fackler's wound profile the 6.5mm Carcano. The bullet weighs 160 grains and the velocity is 2085 f/s. So, the power factor (which is just a measure of momentum) is about 334. All that momentum is concentrated in a small area, but if the bullet hits nothing but soft tissue, the damage done in the first 25 centimeters (about 10") is about the same as might be done by a 25 ACP FMJ bullet from a vest pocket Browning. (Maybe about 10 grams of wound mass.)

https://rewebster.org/profiles/6-5_carcano.png

Next is Fackler's wound profile for a 6mm PPC with a 70 grain hollow point bullet at 2920 f/s. This computes to a power factor of about 204 -- less than two-thirds the momentum of the Carcano. But look at the difference in wound mass in the first 25 centimeters of penetration! (Maybe about 300 grams of wound mass.)

https://rewebster.org/profiles/6mm_ppc_hp.png

And, of course, I'm not saying that the "explosive" expansion and shallow penetration of the 6mm PPC is necessarily better than the deep penetration of the Carcano. It's easy enough to imagine scenarios to favor either over the other. The point is that momentum alone, would not provide a useful basis to choose between the two cartridges.

[44MAG#1]

Momentum certainly exists. It's equal to mass times velocity. And it's certainly not unimportant. It's just that it doesn't tell us much about the likely effectiveness of ammunition. Penetration and permanent cavity wound mass provide more useful information.

How about another lesson from Dr. Fackler?

Here's Fackler's wound profile the 6.5mm Carcano. The bullet weighs 160 grains and the velocity is 2085 f/s. So, the power factor (which is just a measure of momentum) is about 334. All that momentum is concentrated in a small area, but if the bullet hits nothing but soft tissue, the damage done in the first 25 centimeters (about 10") is about the same as might be done by a 25 ACP FMJ bullet from a vest pocket Browning. (Maybe about 10 grams of wound mass.)

https://rewebster.org/profiles/6-5_carcano.png

Next is Fackler's wound profile for a 6mm PPC with a 70 grain hollow point bullet at 2920 f/s. This computes to a power factor of about 204 -- less than two-thirds the momentum of the Carcano. But look at the difference in wound mass in the first 25 centimeters of penetration! (Maybe about 300 grams of wound mass.)

https://rewebster.org/profiles/6mm_ppc_hp.png

And, of course, I'm not saying that the "explosive" expansion and shallow penetration of the 6mm PPC is necessarily better than the deep penetration of the Carcano. It's easy enough to imagine scenarios to favor either over the other. The point is that momentum alone, would not provide a useful basis to choose between the two cartridges.
So you are saying that you would rather have a 45 Auto with 230 RNFMJ bullet at 850 fps for self defense than a 6.5mm Carcano. The bullet weighs 160 grains and the velocity is 2085 f/s? I assuming you mean a FMJRN.
Does momentum happen in both?

[charlie b]

There are so many variables in each shot that it is difficult to compare effectiveness of one bullet over another, other than amount of penetration and dia of permanent cavity. Just because a bullet makes a 2" dia 15" long permanent cavity does NOT mean you will get one shot stops. Nor will it automatically knock someone over.

Momentum is vel times mass (look up the impulse-momentum equation). The amount of momentum is exerted against the shooter as well. If it doesn't push the shooter over there is no reason to expect the victim to be 'pushed' over. This is so very evident when observing deer and other medium size game being shot. They aren't 'knocked over' by the momentum of the bullet. Many times you will see them stop, look around, then walk off. Even the 'little' ones. Heck, jack rabbits shot through with a .45 will frequently just run off until they bleed out.

[44MAG#1]

There are so many variables in each shot that it is difficult to compare effectiveness of one bullet over another, other than amount of penetration and dia of permanent cavity. Just because a bullet makes a 2" dia 15" long permanent cavity does NOT mean you will get one shot stops. Nor will it automatically knock someone over.

Momentum is vel times mass (look up the impulse-momentum equation). The amount of momentum is exerted against the shooter as well. If it doesn't push the shooter over there is no reason to expect the victim to be 'pushed' over. This is so very evident when observing deer and other medium size game being shot. They aren't 'knocked over' by the momentum of the bullet. Many times you will see them stop, look around, then walk off. Even the 'little' ones. Heck, jack rabbits shot through with a .45 will frequently just run off until they bleed out.

Wasn't Newton involved with that?
Momentum is an awesome thing.
It is like a bowling ball hitting bowling pins. I always like momentum.

[charlie b]

Yep. And if you shoot a bowling ball out of a 'gun' at 500fps it will probably knock over the person you hit :) Of course you will probably be on your backside as well, and just as broken. There is a reason cannons are shot from gun mounts. :)

[44MAG#1]

Yep. And if you shoot a bowling ball out of a 'gun' at 500fps it will probably knock over the person you hit :) Of course you will probably be on your backside as well, and just as broken. There is a reason cannons are shot from gun mounts. :)

That bowling ball just propelled down the lane by the person has a great deal of momentum and the bowler isn't knocked backward by the momentum. If that ball would hit someone it would make an impacting experience on the impactee.
How much does that ball weigh and what speed it it rolled toward the pins?
You have to have momentum to get energy. Energy does the smack down too.

[Bigslug]

Momentum. . .I think this thread has run out of it.:mrgreen:

Honestly, I think this wound mass concept is a largely dry well. If we accept that a certain amount of penetration is necessary, and that temporary cavity is meaningless at handgun impact speeds, we find ourselves looking at nothing but narrow wound paths of about 1-2 centimeters in diameter. Not much to choose, really. At some point you get small enough that the "drain" for letting blood out and air in will be unacceptably slow at the process, but between about .30 and .45, it's all much the same.

I've also got some issues against discounting the last bit of the wound track. With any of them, but especially with the various "talon" type rounds, any forward movement is crushing, tearing, or cutting something that can bleed or reduce function. As a hypothetical, a cross-body shot that goes through the arm on the far side might cut the brachial artery causing bleed-out, or break the humerous, taking the fight out of that arm. Also, the spinal cord is encased in some fairly significant bone that I'll want the ability to get through, regardless of what came first. I'm therefore not about to say that energy of a bullet that exits the body is "wasted", but rather that it had the certainty to do everything I needed of it.

On one extreme, I've seen a police shooting video where I knew what the 9mm duty load and approximate hit location on the excited suspect were, and a single cardiovascular hit did the job as instantly as if Wile E. Coyote's Acme Anvil had landed on his head. For the opposite, I've seen a video where the suspect soaked up about a dozen, presumably equal quality duty loads and kept advancing, and it was obvious that he only went down because his brain ran out of blood and he got "sleepy".

You'll see plenty of it with hunting rifles that have significantly more steam than handguns - for every instant bang-flop, there are probably 3-5 equally killed animals that took up to ten seconds or 30-100 yards to realize they were dead and fall down.

In short, if you want certainty, you should bet on dishonesty from Congress. You certainly aren't going to find it in terminal handgun ballistics.

[dverna]

This reminds me of the old song...."Love and marriage...you can't have one without the other"

Both momentum and KE have mass and velocity in their respective calculations.

For some "silly reason", ballistics studies have gravitated to KE as a measure of effectiveness. I think it was Russian collusion.

Then some "scientist" declared a bullet that dumped all its energy in the target (thus expending 100% of its momentum and KE) was more effective.

But "the data" indicated a bullet that passed through and gave two holes to leak blood out of made tracking easier and might be a better bullet to hunt with.

The solution was simple. Create a bullet that expands enough to dump most of its energy/momentum into the target and still passes through. And the modern jacketed bullet was born!!!!

It could be driven to higher velocities ,and with greater accuracy than a cast bullet, plus be made to expand while retaining enough mass to achieve "adequate penetration".

In another "twist of fate", cartridges with "good bullets" and high levels of momentum and KE seemed to create bigger wound channels. Who'd of guessed?

Yet, identical shot placement of the same "good bullet" having excessive momentum and KE will give us a DRT result one day, and a 100 yard tracking effort the next.

Enjoy the "science and data"!

[44MAG#1]

Momentum is the causation of energy. Without mass and speed we would not have momentum and energy would be zero. Look at the rams being knocked down in IHMSA matches.

[Ramjet-SS]

I understand the science and physics. But it comes down to the simple idea of how much critical tissue was destroyed or disrupted from the projectile. CNS hits are frequently incapacitating. That said if the projectile causes severe hemorrhaging it may take some time for the target to succumb to the loss of blood O2 etc. trying to quantify with math is ok to start the real research is the circumstances and analysis of the instances weather it be on game animals , police shootings or SD or even mass shootings. Detailed analysis and review is the real science. Fun discussion just the same and choose wisely and shot placement can even overcome poor bullet design. Practice practice practice……

[M-Tecs]

That bowling ball just propelled down the lane by the person has a great deal of momentum and the bowler isn't knocked backward by the momentum. If that ball would hit someone it would make an impacting experience on the impactee.


You never played medicine ball games/exercises have you? Medicine balls weight about the same as bowling balls. I have thrown and caught many. Rules of physics still apply. It's still for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Bowling ball, medicine balls or bullet do not magically create energy.

[44MAG#1]

Very aware of medicine balls. They have to be moving to generate momentum. There is nothing magical because they are propelled by someone.
The momentum is immense. The faster they are propelled the more momentum they have. The more momentum they have the more knockdown power they have.
Just like the bowling ball the faster it moves toward the bowling pins the more knockdown power it has.
Momentum is a force to be reckoned with.

[charlie b]

I disagree over a thrown bowling ball being a 'knock someone over' thing. I have caught them before (yes, messing around in an empty bowling alley). Not a big deal. Medicine balls as well.

Same as a pitcher throwing a fastball. Loads of momentum but easily caught. And it might sting a little if hit with a pitch, but, it is not that big a deal. And, yes, I've knocked someone over with a baseball and a football. They were caught off balance and not expecting to be hit.

I think KE was used for many years because it emphasized velocity over mass. Something the mfgs could turn into profit by selling the next big deal cause it generated 100fps more velocity.

If you want to know the real momentum/KE effect of a bullet, talk to someone who has taken a round in the chest plate of their body armor, or even someone who has been shot without armor. I've known a few from my Army days. None I knew were 'knocked over' by the bullets. Most fell down, mainly cause they were diving for cover.

[44MAG#1]

I disagree over a thrown bowling ball being a 'knock someone over' thing. I have caught them before (yes, messing around in an empty bowling alley). Not a big deal.

Same as a pitcher throwing a fastball. Loads of momentum but easily caught. And it might sting a little if hit with a pitch, but, it is not that big a deal. And, yes, I've knocked someone over with a baseball and a football. They were caught off balance and not expecting to be hit.

I think KE was used for many years because it emphasized velocity over mass. Something the mfgs could turn into profit by selling the next big deal cause it generated 100fps more velocity.
Everyone is free to agree, disagree or stand somewhere in the middle. If you were just standing there and someone lobbed a bowling ball at you you would stumble, stagger, leanand a few other things.
Momentum keeps things going. No momentum and the object is standing still.

[M-Tecs]

The laws of physics are 100% predictable and repeatable and not really open to opinions. Energy/momentums is not magically created. Hollywood has lot of people believing a shotgun blast will blow a person hit by it back 20 feet. Reality is if it accelerate in 6 inches and it decelerates in 6 inches the energy transfer is the same subject to minor differences in the acceleration deceleration curve.

[44MAG#1]

The laws of physics are 100% predictable and repeatable and not really open to opinions. Energy/momentums is not magically created. Hollywood has lot of people believing a shotgun blast will blow a person hit by it back 20 feet. Reality is if it accelerate in 6 inches and it decelerates in 6 inches the energy transfer is the same subject to minor differences in the acceleration deceleration curve.

Bullets travel at such high speeds momentum is great. The faster mass travels the more momentum it has.

[M-Tecs]

Bullets travel at such high speeds momentum is great. The faster mass travels the more momentum it has.

How much momentum does a beam of light have?????? Once again as simple as I can make it.

If you are holding a 1911 45 ACP and fire it at another 1911 being held by someone else and you perfectly center the bore with your bullet the person holding the second 1911 will feel that same as the person the fired the first 1911 minus slight differences in the acceleration/deceleration curve

[44MAG#1]

How much momentum does a beam of light have?????? Once again as simple as I can make it.

If you are holding a 1911 45 ACP and fire it at another 1911 being held by someone else and you perfectly center the bore with your bullet the person holding the second 1911 will feel that same as the person the fired the first 1911 minus slight differences in the acceleration/deceleration curve
Does a beam of light have mass?
If it does how much mass does it have? What is the weight of it's mass
Ill let you and Pettyplace do that stunt with the 45 Autos. Be sure to video it and upload it to YouTube if someone survives.
It should get many views.people are trying to make light of momentum but it is real and deadly.

[M-Tecs]

people are trying to make light of momentum but it is real and deadly.

No most here have a basic understanding of the laws of physics and how it applies to reality. Others seem to apply magical/mythical prosperities to momentum while disregarding more import components of the equation.

[44MAG#1]

No most here have a basic understanding of the laws of physics and how it applies to reality. Others seem to apply magical/mythical prosperities to momentum while disregarding more import components of the equation.

The laws of physics are not kicking momentum to the curb. Momentum is one of the large building blocks of effective power. Power is what puts the whammo on the bad guy
Momentum is a key player.

[billmc2]

I normally don't pay much attention to things like this but I was surprised to learn that my class reunion this year would be 45 years since graduation. I mention that because I no longer have the text books and I need to pull this from memory and the rememberer ain't as good as it used to be.

The terms being thrown around need to be defined so that everyone is working from the same page. Potential Energy is stored energy, it is not currently in use; a potential to do work. Examples would be springs and powder. Kinetic Energy is a measure of work being done. Momentum and Inertia are basically the same thing; one is a scalar and the other is a vector. I forget exactly which one is which but a scalar just has a quantity while a vector has a quantity and direction. (You can look here for a definition https://www.britannica.com/science/scalar)

Momentum/Inertia is a measure of a Mass to continue along its direction (including being stopped) unless it is acted upon by some outside force.

Using my own terms, momentum allows the bullet to keep going in a straight line. I can think of an outside force that could interact with a bullet as it traverses a critter and that would be a bone. Being still and not moving is a type of inertia (this is where the equal and opposite reaction comes into play). If the bullet has more momentum than the bone has inertia, the bullet will overcome the bone and it will continue on but with a much reduced momentum because it was used overcoming the bone. If the bone has more inertia than the bullet has momentum, the the bone wins out and the bullet stops (I'm not considering a glancing shot which would redirect the bullet). Without enough momentum the bullet couldn't do its job (penetrate). More momentum than needed and you end up with a bullet with momentum remaining that is equal to that which it had to begin with minus what was used in the target, thus able to continue on.

The Potential Energy of the powder is converted to Kinetic Energy of the bullet. Until all that energy is used up, the bullet will continue down its path. A portion of the Kinetic Energy is used to propel the bullet (imparting momentum). Upon striking the target, the target begins draining energy from the total remaining in the bullet. If it is an expanding bullet, energy is used to expand the bullet while at the same time energy is being used to give momentum to the bullet. Due to the interaction of the bullet and target, the energy remaining at any given moment is less than the moment before until the bullet's energy reaches zero and it stops. Usually we never consider other means of energy use draining energy from the bullet but they are present. Friction is present and that generates heat. The heat generated is wasted energy but we can't avoid that. So all these things (the terms being discussed) are interrelated and depend upon each other. We also never discuss gravity but that too, comes into play. Gravity is a factor in Inertia.

(If you'll indulge me in an aside I wanted to comment on 44MAG#1 tag line. What you say about weight and mass is correct. It took me a very long time to differentiate between mass and weight because on our planet they equal each other. Move that same mass to another location (such as the moon) and, depending upon that locations gravity, the weight will change but the mass will stay the same. Because I never foresaw myself dealing with off world events, I was happy to go with the practical, that being they are the same thing.)

[pettypace]

Honestly, I think this wound mass concept is a largely dry well. If we accept that a certain amount of penetration is necessary, and that temporary cavity is meaningless at handgun impact speeds, we find ourselves looking at nothing but narrow wound paths of about 1-2 centimeters in diameter. Not much to choose, really. At some point you get small enough that the "drain" for letting blood out and air in will be unacceptably slow at the process, but between about .30 and .45, it's all much the same.


With a handle like "Bigslug," this borders on blasphemy!

Can it possibly be true that "between about .30 and .45, it's all much the same"?

On a good day a FMJ bullet from a .32 ACP might have a permanent cavity wound mass, by MacPherson's reckoning, of about 13 grams. On the other end of the scale, an expanded 230 grain XTP from a 1911 should easily crush four times that amount of tissue.

Both bullets have more than enough penetration to satisfy the FBI. Either might miss vital structures and fail to stop an attacker. On the other hand, either could instantly incapacitate an attacker with the chance hit of a vital structure. But the odds of that chance hit increase with the mass of tissue damaged. Of course, there are no guarantees. But a 4X increase in odds is too much to write off as "it's all much the same."

[44MAG#1]

billmc2 said
"(If you'll indulge me in an aside I wanted to comment on 44MAG#1 tag line. What you say about weight and mass is correct. It took me a very long time to differentiate between mass and weight because on our planet they equal each other. Move that same mass to another location (such as the moon) and, depending upon that locations gravity, the weight will change but the mass will stay the same. Because I never foresaw myself dealing with off world events, I was happy to go with the practical, that being they are the same thing.)"

Thank you. Mass has weight. Several on here, one supposedly highly educated said it couldn't be weighed.
It stemmed from me giving the CORRECT formula for giving energy.
When I used "mass" for weight in the formula.
I was determined to be ignorant bordering on stupid even.
When I finally showed mass has Newtonian weight and it is derived from kilograms it became suddenly quite. I asked that if mass has Newtonian weight and that kilogram weight is used in the formula where did the kilogram weight come from since mass cannot be weighed according to the high IQ guys? There is 2lb 3.273965oz in a kilogram
And that is 15,432.359687 grains. I could do some more figuring but won't.
I like to learn from you guys.
Keep it up. I need the help.

[pettypace]

I've also got some issues against discounting the last bit of the wound track. With any of them, but especially with the various "talon" type rounds, any forward movement is crushing, tearing, or cutting something that can bleed or reduce function. As a hypothetical, a cross-body shot that goes through the arm on the far side might cut the brachial artery causing bleed-out, or break the humerous, taking the fight out of that arm. Also, the spinal cord is encased in some fairly significant bone that I'll want the ability to get through, regardless of what came first. I'm therefore not about to say that energy of a bullet that exits the body is "wasted", but rather that it had the certainty to do everything I needed of it.


I don't remember exactly how MacPherson worded his explanation for discounting the last 3" of penetration. Certainly, the gist of the argument was simply that the bullet was going too slow to do full damage. MacPherson's penetration graphs don't go below 400 ft/s. But extending his curves backwards (by eyeball), it looks as though the final 3" of penetration might correspond to the velocity going from maybe 200 f/s down to zero. I think 200 f/s is in the same neighborhood as the velocity needed to break the skin.

Here's what Fackler said about the tail end of penetration shown in his wound profiles:

The permanent cavity of expanded handgun bullets is shown as the diameter of the expanded bullets throughout its entire penetration (Figs. 2, 4, 5, 8, and 11). This is a simplification that has proven misleading to some. Actually, the bullet disrupts tissue approximating the full diameter of the expanded projectile only during the first part of its path in most tissue. As the bullet slows, it crushes less tissue and pushes more tissue ahead of it. Near the end of its path, the bullet is stretching tissue by pushing it ahead, thus stretching it, and then tearing its way through it. This applies to most living soft tissues which are quite elastic. When tissue is thus stretched ahead of the bullet before the bullet perforates it, the hole the bullet will make is smaller than the diameter of the bullet. The simplification of showing the permanent cavity as the diameter of the expanded bullet was essential because the diameter of the hole in gelatin does not reflect the hole size found in most elastic soft tissues - which vary in their firmness and flexibility. The permanent cavity as shown in wound profiles of expanded handgun bullets is closely approximated by the hole they make in nonelastic tissue such as liver.


I can't say that Fackler actually sanctioned MacPherson's 3 inch "discount." But they were colleagues and at one point Fackler wrote and published a positive review of MacPherson's book.

In any event, MacPherson's 3 inch "discount" is not a recommendation for less penetration, but rather, encouragement for more. In calculating "MacPherson wound mass," the "discount" has its biggest relative effect on bullets with limited penetration and no effect at all on those that penetrate more than 18 inches.

[44MAG#1]

This along with VIRGEL will settle it all.
https://shootingthebull.net/blog/the-macpherson-wound-trauma-incapacitation-factor/

[charlie b]

Roflmao

[M-Tecs]

Momentum certainly exists. It's equal to mass times velocity. And it's certainly not unimportant. It's just that it doesn't tell us much about the likely effectiveness of ammunition. Penetration and permanent cavity wound mass provide more useful information.
.

Very much so. Today I loaded some .458 500 grain round nose FMJ's subsonic's for a friend. They are at a book velocity of 1,000 fps. I compared the nose shape to some 452" 230 gain round nose FMJ's and they are almost identical. I have some 230's loaded to an actual velocity of 1,000 fps. Both will give a pass thru in most 2 legged SD situations with the wound channel and energy transfer being very similar except of a .006" diameter difference and the 500 grain not slowing down as much. The 500 grain has more than double the KE's and much greater penetration yet the wound channel and stopping power will be about equal for two legged targets. For something like a brown bear the greater penetration is highly beneficial.

[M-Tecs]

Mass has weight. Several on here, one supposedly highly educated said it couldn't be weighed.
.

Your tag line is the only one making that claim???

We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

ROFLMAO

[44MAG#1]

Your tag line is the only one making that claim???

We Know Mass Cannot Be Weighed But It Has Newtonian Weight And That Is Derived From Kilograms And Kilograms Can Be Converted to Pounds. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed. But How is the kilograms obtained? Can Kilograms Be Weighed? Evidentally Yes It Can. But, Still Mass Cannot Be Weighed So Kilograms Must Not Exist. Funny Isn't It.
One good thing out of this the next time I'm at the doctors and they want to weigh me I'll tell them mass cannot be weighed.

ROFLMAO

Making what claim?????? Please explain to me what claim I am making?

[pettypace]

Honestly, I think this wound mass concept is a largely dry well.


Fackler wouldn't agree! Did you read his "Wound Profiles" article (https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2001-Vol5No2.pdf)?

[44MAG#1]

I think Fackler and MacPherson are great.
Their testing prove beyond a doubt that they were the best and most knowledgeable of any.

[pettypace]

Honestly, I think this wound mass concept is a largely dry well. If we accept that a certain amount of penetration is necessary, and that temporary cavity is meaningless at handgun impact speeds, we find ourselves looking at nothing but narrow wound paths of about 1-2 centimeters in diameter. Not much to choose, really. At some point you get small enough that the "drain" for letting blood out and air in will be unacceptably slow at the process, but between about .30 and .45, it's all much the same.



I don't buy that "it's all much the same."

For example, a buddy of mine, a relatively new shooter, recently bought an M1 carbine intended for civilian self defense. With ball ammunition, the M1 carbine never earned much of a reputation for effectiveness. Even if it "tumbles" I doubt a 110 grain FMJ bullet at 2000 f/s would produce much over 15 grams of effective wound mass.

But loaded with a good expanding bullet, Fackler's wound profile below shows a wound mass of about 60 grams. You can think about that as four times the amount of tissue damaged or as four times the probability of hitting something "vital." Either way, a 4:1 ratio shouldn't be dismissed as "all much the same."

https://rewebster.org/profiles/30_carbine_SP_profile.png

[44MAG#1]

If we use a decent caliber handgun with an expanding bullet and we place that bullet with precision we should be okay. That is what I take away from these studies. Most don't stuff a rifle or shotgun in their pants to go to Walmart. I have a 12 gauge pump that I keep at home but it isn't loaded.
Would a load of number 4 buckshot do for home defense?

[pettypace]

Would a load of number 4 buckshot do for home defense?

Here's Dr. Fackler's wound profile for #4 buckshot:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/Number_4_buckshot_profile.png

[44MAG#1]

Here's Dr. Fackler's wound profile for #4 buckshot:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/Number_4_buckshot_profile.png

Maybe I ought to load up that baby.
Looks better than my 38 Special pocket revolver.

[pettypace]

Maybe I ought to load up that baby.
Looks better than my 38 Special pocket revolver.

I'd go with 00 buck for the extra penetration.

[44MAG#1]

I'd go with 000 buck for the extra penetration.

I would say that extra 2 inches with all that momentum would make a great difference. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Good Cheer]

Here's Dr. Fackler's wound profile for #4 buckshot:

https://rewebster.org/profiles/Number_4_buckshot_profile.png

Grampa said to use #4's. Maybe that's one of things he learned in France.

[44MAG#1]

Grampa said to use #4's. Maybe that's one of things he learned in France.

But we all know it is where they are hit that really matters.
WDM Bell used a 7X57 on Elephant with good success.
Placement versus Displacement.

[MT Gianni]

I have personal knowledge that a sheep, facing you head up, hit in the head with 45 ball from a 5" 1911 with give said animal a headache as it glances off into parts unknown. It will not automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma. The sheeps' legs will still work. Hit square instead of a glancing blow it will usually exit through the throat area causing a quick death. No I was not the shooter just the observer.

[44MAG#1]

I have personal knowledge that a sheep, facing you head up, hit in the head with 45 ball from a 5" 1911 with give said animal a headache as it glances off into parts unknown. It will not automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma. The sheeps' legs will still work. Hit square instead of a glancing blow it will usually exit through the throat area causing a quick death. No I was not the shooter just the observer.

I believe Fackler and McPherson were dealing with human wounds.
I may be mistaken. But think there is a slight chance I may be right.

[M-Tecs]

I have personal knowledge that a sheep, facing you head up, hit in the head with 45 ball from a 5" 1911 with give said animal a headache as it glances off into parts unknown. It will not automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma. The sheeps' legs will still work. Hit square instead of a glancing blow it will usually exit through the throat area causing a quick death. No I was not the shooter just the observer.

A friend of mine was shot at point blank range with a 9mm in Iraq just at the point of the hair line. The bullet skidded on the skull till it hit the helmet. The bullet followed the contour of the helmet until it lodged in the top of his vest on his back. The guy that shot him didn't fare as well.

I've never slaughtered sheep but I got the job as shooter for slaughtering hogs and cattle at about 10 years old after others had to many misses. Hogs and heifers/steers got a 22 LR to the brain. For baloney bulls we used a 22 Mag. I never missed the spot but I have witnessed numerous others miss.

Too your point I purchased a Colt Gold Cup at 14 years old in 1974 with hay hauling and fur money. It didn't take me very long shooting jack rabbits with 45 GI ball to learn that the claims of blowing people of their feet or " automatically break it's back, cause organs to cease functioning or other trauma" was not the reality some claim.

[44MAG#1]

Bullet placement is key. We have learned that handguns lack the smash to effect large wound mass numbers.
So we have to compensate somewhere.

[M-Tecs]

Bullet placement and energy transfer is the key unless it's a central nervous system hit. Lot of jack rabbits would do a 150 to 200 yard dash with a double lung from 45 ACP ball yet a 22LR hollow point would anchor them. The 200 grain Speer flying ashtray was outstanding on jack rabbits.

I lost way too many coyotes using 90 grain FMJ's at 2,400 FPS out of a .243 Win with double lung hits. Same for double lung deer when I used bullets designed for much heavier game. I put three 175 grain Bitterroots through both lungs on a medium sized mule deer. He made it 1 1/2 section before he got to the section line fence and could not cross. A fourth one through the neck did the trick. A section is 1 mile square. I made the same mistake with a 338 Win Mag and a 375 H&H mag with single double lung hits. Recovery was a challenge and both required a second shot. Switching to 210 grain partians in the 338 turned it into the hammer to Thor. Same for lighter jacketes bullets in the 375 H&H.

None of the deer or Antelope I've taken with 223, 22-250 or 220 Swift made it more than 30 feet with a lung shot using 55 grain softpoint.

[44MAG#1]

Bullet placement and energy transfer is the key unless it's a central nervous system hit. Lot of jack rabbits would do a 150 to 200 yard dash with a double lung from 45 ACP ball yet a 22LR hollow point would anchor them. The 200 grain Speer flying ashtray was outstanding on jack rabbits.

I lost way too many coyotes using 90 grain FMJ's at 2,400 FPS out of a .243 Win with double lung hits. Same for double lung deer when I used bullets designed for much heavier game. I put three 175 grain Bitterroots through both lungs on a medium sized mule deer. He made it 1 1/2 section before he got to the section line fence and could not cross. A fourth one through the neck did the trick. A section is 1 mile square. I made the same mistake with a 338 Win Mag and a 375 H&H mag with single double lung hits. Recovery was a challenge and both required a second shot. Switching to 210 grain partians in the 338 turned it into the hammer to Thor. Same for lighter jacketes bullets in the 375 H&H.

None of the deer or Antelope I've taken with 223, 22-250 or 220 Swift made it more than 30 feet with a lung shot using 55 grain softpoint.

Again this thread is pertaining to handguns mostly on human wounding based on 15 inches of penetration.

[M-Tecs]

Again this thread is pertaining to handguns mostly on human wounding based on 15 inches of penetration.

Per the OP the thread is about:




How, for example, does .45 hardball compare to the classic .38 Special FBI load? Or to a .22 LR hollow point? Or to a 12 gauge slug? Or to a target wadcutter from a .38 snubby? Or to a 30-40 Krag with ball ammo?

NOTE: Fackler's wound profiles are available here: https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/2001-Vol5No2.pdf

It is also about what any poster wants to post as long as it's within the forum rules.

[44MAG#1]

Per the OP the thread is about:



It is also about what any poster wants to post as long as it's within the forum rules.

That is very true. I was just trying to help everyone understand that the Fackler, McPherson studies were on human wounds. VIRGEL is available for downloading and it is a wonderful tool.
It was thoughtfully developed based on McPherson's study of HUMAN wounding capabilities of various calibers and bullets.