Good Shot or Bad Shot on a whitetail? Graphic

[BK7saum]

306042
Entrance
306043
Exit
306044
Location in upper chest.
306045
Damage left lung
306046
Damage right lung

4+ hours later, a finishing shot was needed.

[BK7saum]

Well, needless to say since I am asking the question (rhetorical), this didn't turn out as well as expected. Not a cast boolit, but .40 cal sabot at 1350fps, a typical handgun bullet/handgun velocity scenario with a Speer Gold Dot.

Deer was shot at 09:00 and was jumped at 09:45. We left and returned a couple hours later. Deer was found and a finishing shot needed at 13:10.

I have heard of but never personally seen this scenario play out. I have shot or assisted with recovery many deer. This shot has always been a DRT.

I am sure the slower velocity / decreased kinetic energy was a contributing factor in this situation, but never fathomed that this would not have been a fatal shot.

Just wanted to report a successful deer hunt and recovery of my daughter's second doe for the year.

Good luck to everyone this season.

[BLAHUT]

Years ago, I have seen a doe shot through and through with a 30/06, about in the same area, with about the same out come. Good you recovered dinner.

[high standard 40]

If shot placement had been about 3" lower I believe the result would have been much better. I high velocity bullet at your location would have had a much different outcome than what you experienced.

[M-Tecs]

In archery there is a myth of the void. Your shot location is the location of the mythical void. Under the spine but just the top of the lungs. They can go a long way with that hit. It's not a bad shot since you recovered it but as stated a little lower would have made for an easier recovery. A little higher would have taken the spine out.

[Jeff Michel]

High lung shot, takes a while but it does work. I would imagine that the body cavity was completely full of blood?

[longcruise]

I think I see two entry and two exits. Which is the original?

[BK7saum]

High lung shot, takes a while but it does work. I would imagine that the body cavity was completely full of blood?

There was minimal blood in the chest cavity. There were a few small spots on the lower lungs that were starting to turn red as blood had started to settle.

I honestly don't think this deer was in danger of bleeding out anytime soon.

I also don't know that this would have been fatal other than possible infection. The deer was alert when found/finished, but did not try to get up from where bedded.

[BK7saum]

I think I see two entry and two exits. Which is the original?
One entry, one exit. shoulder to shoulder.

There is an entry in the head with exit in the neck that was the finisher.

[BK7saum]

In archery there is a myth of the void. Your shot location is the location of the mythical void. Under the spine but just the top of the lungs. They can go a long way with that hit. It's not a bad shot since you recovered it but as stated a little lower would have made for an easier recovery. A little higher would have taken the spine out.

Yes, I told my daughter that a 1/2 higher would have been a spine shot. It literally cut the meat from the lower side of the spine without hitting bone.
An inch or two lower would have been a dead deer running.

[BK7saum]

If shot placement had been about 3" lower I believe the result would have been much better. I high velocity bullet at your location would have had a much different outcome than what you experienced.

Absolutely no doubt that 3" lower would have been a short death run. That is her "usual" shot location.

[megasupermagnum]

That is incredible. Just unlucky no arteries or anything were hit. It's still amazing she didn't suffocate. Apparently it was hit in just the right spot that the lungs never collapsed.

[Ramjet-SS]

Looks dead = shot was good

[megasupermagnum]

Looks dead = shot was good

The second one was. His first shot was not quickly fatal. Something really powerful like a shotgun slug, or a 30-06 would have taken out the spine, but his round simply blew through the lungs. Normally that is quickly fatal. It's quite amazing it wasn't. I never have believed in the "dead spot" being as it is medcially impossible, however, this is the best evidence I have ever seen that a shot at the extreme top of the lungs may not collapse the lungs. Still, think of the chances. 1/2" higher and it would have taken out the spine, 1/2" lower and it might have died like a normal double lunged deer. Who knows, repeat the same shot exactly, and the lungs might collapse next time!

[badwolf]

Hit a doe Sat in the same location, 243 with 90 nosler ballistic tip. Dropped at the shot. Surprised me cause the shoulder or spine weren't hit .

[dverna]

It makes one wonder if the same shot with a HV bullet would have resulted in a quicker kill.

MSM makes a good point. What are that chances of hitting such a small area where a “good” shot is not lethal?

You did a good job retrieving the deer so celebrate that.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm sure that was a lethal hit, but apparently not within 4 hours. Certainly it would have been dead the next day. It's hard to say if more velocity would have helped. I'm assuming this was a 45 caliber muzzleloader which is capable of a lot more speed, but his daughter might not have been. Would a 243 at 3200 fps have been better (may not have been legal rifle season)? Who knows. A really powerful round certainly would, but with that comes recoil.

At the end of the day, we are all just armchair QBing. My take away is to cheat down a little more on the chest. It seems quite a few deer are lost due to backstrap hits, and apparently very high lung shots are not much better than gut shots. I was never in favor of shoulder shots, but now I'm even more against them.

[M-Tecs]

It makes one wonder if the same shot with a HV bullet would have resulted in a quicker kill.


HV is on aspect but without expansion/energy transfer HV has it limits. Years ago I loaded some 270 175 Bitterroot bullets for a friend for a Candian moose hunt. He took a very nice bull and the bullets performed as expected. He gave me the leftover bullets. At the time I didn't own a 270. A couple years later a picked up a nice Pre64 Model 70 about a week before deer season. I loaded the 175 and went hunting.

I was on my way to may spot when a medium sized muley stopped about 150 yards in front of my truck. I put three rounds centered through both lungs. It made it about a mile and a half with 3 double lung shots. It was too weak to cross a fence but still standing when I put the 4th on through the neck. None of the three rounds through the lungs showed any expansion. If it wasn't open country and chased it with my truck I would have lost it. Had I been using a 130 or a 150 it wouldn't have made 30 yards on the first shot. I've made the same mistake with a 338 Win and a 375 H&H using bullets designed for much heavier game. Energy transfer is huge. HV without energy transfer not so much. Similar shots (center Double lung) with a 22-250 or 220 Swift with 55 grain softpoint didn't take a step

[BK7saum]

I'm sure that was a lethal hit, but apparently not within 4 hours. Certainly it would have been dead the next day. It's hard to say if more velocity would have helped. I'm assuming this was a 45 caliber muzzleloader which is capable of a lot more speed, but his daughter might not have been. Would a 243 at 3200 fps have been better (may not have been legal rifle season)? Who knows. A really powerful round certainly would, but with that comes recoil.

At the end of the day, we are all just armchair QBing. My take away is to cheat down a little more on the chest. It seems quite a few deer are lost due to backstrap hits, and apparently very high lung shots are not much better than gut shots. I was never in favor of shoulder shots, but now I'm even more against them.

To clarify, Muzzleloader is .50 with a .40 sabot and a .40/165 grain speer gold dot bullet at a chronoed 1350. Full expansion has been achieved previously in testing and on deer with this load. Petals are fully expanded on previous recovered bullets in a typical "speer gold dot" mushroom.

[BLAHUT]

I'm sure that was a lethal hit, but apparently not within 4 hours. Certainly it would have been dead the next day. It's hard to say if more velocity would have helped. I'm assuming this was a 45 caliber muzzleloader which is capable of a lot more speed, but his daughter might not have been. Would a 243 at 3200 fps have been better (may not have been legal rifle season)? Who knows. A really powerful round certainly would, but with that comes recoil.

At the end of the day, we are all just armchair QBing. My take away is to cheat down a little more on the chest. It seems quite a few deer are lost due to backstrap hits, and apparently very high lung shots are not much better than gut shots. I was never in favor of shoulder shots, but now I'm even more against them.

I Tend to agree. Head or neck shots. My problem, training, subcounches, Always brings me back to center mass.
I wonder what a pure lead bullet would have done with this hit ?

[Winger Ed.]

Better luck next time, but at least it didn't linger on and you found it.

[stubshaft]

You managed to recover it so it was good enough, although placement wasn't the best.

[Screwbolts]

I prefer to not hit the front shoulders because I don't want that meat bloodshot. Dead is dead, and I like to hit just behind the blades and much lower to do both lungs and the heart. Your mileage may very, but your still eating fine. Congratulations to the shooter! I believe your load is perfect, just a little different placement and the time to total expiration will be much less. If the lead aint flying the deer aint dying!

Ken

[BK7saum]

I appreciate all the input. As this was a very unique situation, i thought I'd post the results, and success.

With the placement in "no man's land", this was a peripheral hit on the upper and forward lobes of the lungs. Both lungs were damaged, but no major arteries were hit.

The lungs remained inflated and there was minimal apparent pooling of blood /fluid in the lungs themselves. There was an extremely small amount of blood in the chest / pleural cavity (almost none).

I do not think that this deer would have died from bleeding out or drowning in fluid in the short forseeable future.

The positive and negative with the location was that the double shoulder shot also injured the shoulders to limit the mobility of the deer.

The shot location that was desired was behind the shoulder, about 1/3 up from the bottom of the chest. This would be a center lung shot just to the rear of the heart.

On another note, daughter's deer from a week and a half ago was a 140 yard quartering to shot through the heart itself. This one ran at least 75 yards after the shot.

So this one was a bit of a fluke with leg forward placement was just a bit too far forward and a bit too high.

[versa-06]

Hey look, Not every shot is perfect in hunting situations. I'm 61 yrs. old & I still am not perfect. I still pull a shot on the bench from time to time. I still get Very excited when I see "Horns", Had one slip by me once & in the excitement I pulled & the bullet glanced off of a small tree in front of me. The deer came to a stop, looked around & got a neck shot & not a Texas heart shot. All exciting. Hard to hold still in the excitement, But that's why we do it!

[versa-06]

P.S Congrats to the Young Lady, You're a good dad!

[white eagle]

looks to me like it was to far forward and a bit high
not a good shot IMO

[MT Gianni]

The shot is not in a location I choose to aim for. For me the key is that the deer didn't attempt to rise before the second shot. That shows a weakened deer lacking strength. Too high and a little to forward for me for a stopping shot. A high velocity shot to that area can send bone chips up to the spine and down into the lungs. A round ball, placed lower, can break the shoulder and put the animal down. A sabotted pistol bullet can do as happened above.

[Moleman-]

I've always aimed for the crease where the back of their front leg (armpit) meets their body if broadside. The opposite side "armpit" spot to between the legs if an angle shot depending on how much angle is involved.

Few years back when my son graduated to hunting on his own v/s being in dads treestand he had made a similar but slightly lower shot on a doe. Double lung, and a piece of bullet we later found out had gone through the heart. We waited 30 minutes before starting to track it only to hear it get back up and splash through a marshy area. So we backed off and went into town to pass a little time and get something warm to eat and drink. A good two hours later after tracking the deer through the marshy area I spotted it sitting behind a brush pile watching us. A head shot put it down for good. When field dressing it was when I'd found the hole through the heart. Chest cavity full of blood, don't think it had enough strength to get up and run at that point. Not much blood where it had been laying though.

Congrats on the deer and for getting another hunter started.

[Hannibal]

A friend's son shot an 8 point buck at 40 yards about a decade ago. Went to the edge of the field and laid down on the edge of a ditch. We waited 15 minutes or so and followed the deer. Upon our approach it got up and trotted about 15 yards and laid down again. Lots of brush in that spot so shooting at it again wasn't really an option. Stayed put to keep an eye on it. Every few minutes the deer would throw it's head up and look around then put it's head back down. Decided to go in and finish it off after about 15 minutes of this with a shot in the neck.
When that deer was field dressed there was literally nothing left of the heart or either of the lungs. Looked like it had been run in a blender then poured back in. The deer's rack wasn't particularly impressive but it field dressed at 275 pounds. If I hadn't seen it for myself I'd have never believed it. I'll never understand how that deer stayed alive for 30 minutes in that condition and still needed a second shot to finish it off. All I can say is that deer are incredibly resilient. They may be thin-skinned and lightly boned compared to some animals but they definitely have an amazing will to escape.

I do everything I can to bust a shoulder. Both of them if I can.

[Fishman]

Looks good to me, even if the results weren't as desirable as you'd like. Deer are individuals, just like humans and what it takes to stop one varies.

I'm not sure a high velocity round would have done much better. My son hit a big doe in a similar place with a .243 wssm, which is pretty fast. It went right down and I told him to keep hunting, since he had another tag and it was early. Two hours later we went to go get the doe who had been laying in plain sight the whole time. She was laying there paralyzed and gasping weakly, requiring a follow up mercy shot. I really felt bad as did my son, since it would have been easy to check and make sure she was dead quite a bit sooner. Sometimes things don't happen the way they ought to, but you do your best as a father, which is what you did. Good job.

[Hogdaddy]

Hey look, Not every shot is perfect in hunting situations. I'm 61 yrs. old & I still am not perfect. I still pull a shot on the bench from time to time. I still get Very excited when I see "Horns", Had one slip by me once & in the excitement I pulled & the bullet glanced off of a small tree in front of me. The deer came to a stop, looked around & got a neck shot & not a Texas heart shot. All exciting. Hard to hold still in the excitement, But that's why we do it!

Neck shot plants them 99% of the time. ; ) PS You got the deer, Good shot
H/D

[Milky Duck]

you seem to have managed a through n through without hitting anything...... a rare occasion indeed. the mythical void shot. agree high velocity would probably have imparted some shock to spine and dropped animal on spot, BUT it might have jumped up again and scarpered when approached. good work on finding and finishing deer, you did good.
my aim (pun intended) is to break one if not both front legs and take out thick part of lungs doing so.... they can't drive anywhere with no front wheels ...could well be printed on my tombstone as Ive given that bit of advice thousands of times over the years.
picture a balloon/soccer ball held between the deer's legs inside its chest cavity and aim to pop it, works from any angle except tail on...and a big heavy for caliber will even do that one, messily but will do it.
hopefully the original trigger squeezer isn't put off by the experience... they did good, these thing do happen to even the most experienced hunters. enjoy the venison, just be sure to age it a bit as it may well be stressed beyond the normal amount.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Glad you found it. Had a similarly hit buck “recover” after getting knocked flat by the shot. Thankfully, I was able to hit it a second time and keep the track short. Don’t think I would ever intentionally take the high shoulder shot, but some love it. Like others have mentioned, it probably works better with high velocity rounds.

[yeahbub]

You took the trouble to find it and finished the job, which is the ethical thing to do. One does one's best but Murphy can show up in anything you try to accomplish. True, it wasn't as hoped for, but it is a success.

One year, I had a through-and-through shot on a buck with a .50 cal RB in the last minutes of the last day of ML season. He switched ends and ran back the way he came. I found him some 20 minutes later, folded up like he was bedding down for the night, very alert and looking around, getting nervous at my approach. A neck shot was the coup de gras, and when field dressing him, I found that the first shot went through the boiler room and didn't hit a single critical item. I expect that, had I not found him and it didn't get infected, he'd have completely recovered.

[Beaverhunter2]

In archery there is a myth of the void. Your shot location is the location of the mythical void. Under the spine but just the top of the lungs. They can go a long way with that hit. It's not a bad shot since you recovered it but as stated a little lower would have made for an easier recovery. A little higher would have taken the spine out.

It's no "myth". I shot a 2 1/2 year old 8 point one year that had been shot similarly and healed. I hit him broadside and low. It went straight through the heart and the bottoms of both lungs. Surprisingly- DRT. No death run I usually see with heart shots. When I opened it up it had broken ribs (one on each side near the top) that had healed with scar tissue around the knobs of bone that had formed. It also had some scar tissue at the top of one lung. From the looks of the wounds it was shot with a bullet- not an arrow. The scars in the hide showed no clean lines like a broadhead wound. One tough deer.

As a side note, it also had a bleeding bullet hole in one ear. I had heard a shot from the direction the deer came from about an hour before I shot it. I guess the third bullet (mine) was the charm.

You recovered the deer, BK- therefore it was a good shot (combined with some excellent hunting skills). Too many hunters push too hard and give up too early.

John

[M-Tecs]

It's no "myth". I shot a 2 1/2 year old 8 point one year that had been shot similarly and healed. I hit him broadside and low. It went straight through the heart and the bottoms of both lungs. Surprisingly- DRT. No death run I usually see with heart shots. When I opened it up it had broken ribs (one on each side near the top) that had healed with scar tissue around the knobs of bone that had formed. It also had some scar tissue at the top of one lung. From the looks of the wounds it was shot with a bullet- not an arrow. The scars in the hide showed no clean lines like a broadhead wound. One tough deer.

As a side note, it also had a bleeding bullet hole in one ear. I had heard a shot from the direction the deer came from about an hour before I shot it. I guess the third bullet (mine) was the charm.

You recovered the deer, BK- therefore it was a good shot (combined with some excellent hunting skills). Too many hunters push too hard and give up too early.

John

The claim of a "void" is 100% myth. The widely held belief is that when a deer exhales a void is created above the lungs and below the spine that a bullet or arrow can pass thru with any significant damage. That is not how lungs work and it is 100% BS. Reality is that area is a poor shot location that can lead to long recoveries, lost deer or even deer that survive that hit. Same as any hit that just hits the edge of the lungs. Even deer hit hard in only one lung have been known to survive.

Good discussion here:

https://www.themeateater.com/wired-to-hunt/whitetail-hunting/the-truth-about-the-void-in-a-deers-chest

Good video here start at 2:15


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ5fkdN0tuI

[megasupermagnum]

It's no "myth". I shot a 2 1/2 year old 8 point one year that had been shot similarly and healed. I hit him broadside and low. It went straight through the heart and the bottoms of both lungs. Surprisingly- DRT. No death run I usually see with heart shots. When I opened it up it had broken ribs (one on each side near the top) that had healed with scar tissue around the knobs of bone that had formed. It also had some scar tissue at the top of one lung. From the looks of the wounds it was shot with a bullet- not an arrow. The scars in the hide showed no clean lines like a broadhead wound. One tough deer.

As a side note, it also had a bleeding bullet hole in one ear. I had heard a shot from the direction the deer came from about an hour before I shot it. I guess the third bullet (mine) was the charm.

You recovered the deer, BK- therefore it was a good shot (combined with some excellent hunting skills). Too many hunters push too hard and give up too early.

John

I don't doubt your story at all, however, there is a lot you can't know. I find it really hard to believe it would be possible to single lung hit a deer with a bullet like that. Maybe with a straight down shot, but that would be a real miracle for a deer to heal from, and would not pertain to the void myth. For sure an animal can survive with one lung. Humans can. Take out two lungs, and it's just a matter of time. I'm not going to say that deer didn't get shot through a single lung and healed, but I think it equally, if not more plausible that it was hit by a car.

[M-Tecs]

Until both lungs collapse or fill with blood remarkable things can happen. A good friend is an avid fox hunter. He shot a red fox broadside with a 17 Remington at 4,000 FPS. That was his preferred fox rifle. Normally the bullet was explosive enough that he wouldn't get an exit hole but occasionally he would get zero expansion. A red fox made a den in the farmyard and he waited until the fur was prime to shoot it. It was standing by the den broadside when he shot it. It made it back into the den. A couple of weeks later he spotted a fox by the den. It had a hairless spot on both sides. He assumed it was the one he shot and the bullet didn't expand. He left the fox alone for about a year until he watched it kill a pheasant. The hairless spot had mostly turned into white spots. He shot it and skinned it out. It clearly was the fox he double lunged a year before. He had the pelt tanned and I have personally seen it.

Back to the subject of the OP's shot location. It was not a good location. An inch up or a couple of inches lower it would have had much different results. Same for head shots and or neck shots that are off a little. They can be instant lights out or lost deer depending a small location differences.

[Milky Duck]

the void DOES exist...many many years ago I shot a rabbit in paddock that was acting strangely and not walking off when it should have bolted...this is your garden variety cotton tail rabbit. I shot it with a shotgun and upon skinning I found a through n through bullet hole high through both shoulder blades/chest...bullet had gone under spine and above lungs...this was close to 40 years ago but I REMEMBER it well as it was so unusual... now a rabbit hit with even the humble .22lr is the same weight for weight as a deer hit with about half a pound of lead.....
so if its not a void...its an area that an animal can survive a through n through wound ,normally I would suggest a no bone on way in hit.or if bone only the very thin part of shoulder blade.

[taco650]

I've made similar high lung shots on several whitetails and all were DRT but my load was a 30-06 with Hornady 150 grain SP at around 2700 fps. All were through and through so I'm guessing the higher velocity of my load made the difference. Glad you were able to recover the doe.

[Tom_in_AZ]

Ideal placement would have been 4” or so lower. That being said, perfect shots don’t always happen and it worked out in the end.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tripplebeards]

I always take “archery” heat and lung shots with guns. That way you know it’s dead…even if it runs after the shot. That shot looks pretty high and forward to me. Adding a slow, non expanding projectile to the mix makes it even worse. If it were me, I’d be aiming ran inch and half behind the shoulder and lining up to have your shot exit into the offside leg. Up and down wise, center mass or about 1/3rd of the way up from the belly to make sure you connect with the heart/ lung area. I’m sure it would have dropped the deer with a 3,000 fps j word all day long as others have posted. With that kind of hydro shock from a close to 3000 fps fragile jacketed bullet, that will fragment in all directions, close counts. But with a slower, non expanding boolit or slow j word pistol bullet that pokes a small hole in and out with zero to little energy transfer makes for a poor shot placement choice. To me shooting a deer with a pistol is like shooting it with a FMJ or field point with the wrong shot placement or bullet choice. Better off aiming behind the shoulder for the lungs and pumper imo.

[Tripplebeards]

Well I can tell you I shot probably the same place you did with my 30-06 the other day. Actually two shots in the same hole and exited about an inch apart. When I first shot the deer ran like it wasn’t even hit. Made it about 35 to 40 yards and I shot it again and it pivoted and ran down the hill a good 50 yards before it piled. It had a blood trail a blind man could follow. I was shocked that deer didn’t at least tumble a few feet after the shot. It blew almost a fist size hole through the front shoulder plate with two hand loaded, full throttle, 180 grain core locks in the same spot. Looks like one tumbled. Blew the front of the lungs apart. Deer can be tough!


Entrance…

https://i.imgur.com/9gwV1rF.jpg

Exits…

https://i.imgur.com/iHjreA7.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JGkSJ49.jpg

[BandeauRouge]

TOO HIGH have had deer hit in that spot with Hornady GMX and regular rem 100 grain psp in 243 win run over half a mile.

And i can get bigger holes in the rib cage with my broad heads.

[rbuck351]

I shot a moose in that same spot with a 308win 150gr at about 75 yds. I thought I had missed from the reaction of the moose. It walked about 20/30 yds and stopped. The next shot was about 4" higher than the first and clipped the spine with an instant flop. Now I aim for the front shoulder right over the leg and about 1/3 the way from the bottom of the chest. Anything hit there doesn't go anywhere. Even 4 or 5 inches from the poa works well.

[Beaverhunter2]

I'm not certain there is actually a "gap" between the lungs and the ribcage/spine. Actually there shouldn't be for the breathing motion to work to properly inflate and deflate the lungs. I just saw and say that there's a narrow line where a shot completely through the deer's chest is a non-fatal hit (or can be). An inch higher and the spine is severed. An inch or so lower and both lungs are hit solidly (which is usually fatal pretty quickly). In that narrow band the lung damage is minimal and the spinal cord is undamaged- especially for an arrow.

[Electrod47]

"Every shot is a learning experience"

[trapper9260]

"Every shot is a learning experience"

You got it , it is . I have shot some in the heart and still went 100 yards before they dropped . You never know. From the time you squeeze the trigger and the bullet hit the animal is 2 different things , I had that happened to me a few times .