Is .44 mag "difficult" to load down for?

[Mint]

Note: I don't have any reloading experience (just picked up Rock Chucker yesterday and it's on my floor, I'm still reading Lyman + Speer manuals).

My very first load I'm going to start with is .357 magnum, for Winchester 1873.

I have a Winchester 1892 deluxe takedown in 44 magnum on order, but I haven't shot it yet. I heard the recoil is like 30-30. I don't enjoy that much recoil at all, as I like to shoot 50-100 rounds at once on the range, and I usually shoot at 100 yard paper or gongs.

I would like to load down the 44 magnum so that it's perhaps similar to a factory 357 recoil or less.

Should this be possible/doable? I have heard more than one person say .44 magnum is difficult to load down for, although I don't know why they said that. I've also heard 44 spl can leave carbon rings in my gun, so perhaps its better to load down 44 rather than shoot 44 spl (I try to avoid cleaning unless absolutely necessary).

Thank you

[Randy Bohannon]

Cast lead bullets and a wide selection of powders will reasonably tame down .44 Mag. to 850-900 FPS . If that doesn’t work use .44 S&W brass and data.

[ohen cepel]

Yes, you can load .44m to a mild level with the right powder. I have done that as I also don't like scrubbing the cylinder after shooting the shorter rounds. Since you reload, you can meet your goal with some research.

Not sure why the other fella said it couldn't be done. Shouldn't/can't be done with certain powders.

I have had good luck with 7.0gr of Titegroup under a 240gr LSWC, gets you to around 1025fps in a 7.5in barrel. Mild enough for me but I'm sure you could get it a bit lighter with research.

[Mint]

Yes, you can load .44m to a mild level with the right powder. I have done that as I also don't like scrubbing the cylinder after shooting the shorter rounds. Since you reload, you can meet your goal with some research.

Not sure why the other fella said it couldn't be done. Shouldn't/can't be done with certain powders.

I have had good luck with 7.0gr of Titegroup under a 240gr LSWC, gets you to around 1025fps in a 7.5in barrel. Mild enough for me but I'm sure you could get it a bit lighter with research.

Wow, that is crazy light recoil. Thanks! I put that into a calculator and that is less than 357... 3.5 ft.lbf. Pardon this question as it is probably quite dumb, but how does that load you mentioned relate to accuracy. Does accuracy always decrease with velocity? I shoot at 50 yards, and with an astygmatism at 100 yards I just try to hit steel gongs. Now that I started reloading though I want to work more on accuracy at 50 using iron sights. I'd like to make sure I don't set myself up for failure by using a load not really designed to be accurate (or maybe it is, I'm not quite sure if I'm asking the right question)

[elmacgyver0]

I have found the 44 magnum a joy to reload.
I have 2 7.5inch barrel Vaqueros, actually only used 1, the other is unfired.
I also have a Rossi lever gun in that caliber.
I have never fired a factory round of 44 magnums.
I usually shoot pretty mild loads.

[derek45]

6.5gr win231/HP38

10gr Unique

9gr Universal

240gr SWC

all got about 1000-1100 from my 5"

https://i.imgur.com/Hp3jimY.jpg



https://i.imgur.com/KDL4k9H.jpg

[stubshaft]

Nope, 180 grain cast over a light charge of Unique.

[Outpost75]

I use .44-40 data in .44 Mag. No brainer. I run 6 grains of Bullseye with Accurate 43-215C.

This article from The Fouling Shot has useful info, cross-posted by permission:

Tales from the Back Creek Diary - Bullseye Powder .44 Magnum “Medium” Velocity Loads

Soft, plain based, bullets and fast-burning powders provide economy and utility.

A firearm does not need to be operated at “full power” any more than any other machine. It is true that some people still believe that if you own a .44 Magnum and reload for it, you must be able to feel the heat on your face every time you pull the trigger, as your hand stings and your ears ring. But this is nonsense, of course. Lesser power loads are fine for recreation and most field shooting. They indeed have their place. My friends and I probably shoot 100 rounds of “medium velocity” loads for every dinosaur killer. Few reloading manuals list loads for the .44 Magnum other than hand busters. Experienced reloaders successfully improvise, but less intrepid, practical shooters are frustrated.

The so-called “medium velocity” load is subsonic when fired in from a typical revolver. It also does not exceed the leading threshold of about 1300-1400 fps., when a soft, plain-based bullet is fired from a rifle. Remington offered marketed exactly such a .44 Magnum load for a short time during the early to mid 1980s. It was intended for the police market, as a counterpart in .44 Magnum, to the similar lead bullet .41 Magnum police load, which has also, unfortunately been discontinued.

Remington’s .44 Magnum Medium Velocity load offering used a flat-nosed, 240-grain, plain- based, swaged lead bullet with two cannelures, resembling an elongated .44-40 slug. Its shape mimicked today’s “Cowboy Loads” having a catalog velocity of 1000 f.p.s. from a 4-inch vented test barrel, simulating revolver conditions.

These ballistics approximate those of the original 1873 black powder .45 Colt service cartridge, or .44-40 black powder loads when fired from a 7-1/2 inch barrel. This is hardly today’s “mouse-fart” cowboy load, but stout stuff like they used to kill buffalo and shoot Indians. For today’s hand loader the greatest economy is realized by being able to exploit plain-based cast bullets, using the least expensive, soft scrap alloy, such as wheel weights or common scrap, with faster-burning pistol or shotgun powders which provide twice as many rounds per pound, as the slow-burners normally used for full power .44 Magnum loads.

Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition lists .44 Magnum charges with using fast-burning powders, but their starting loads, while useful in revolvers, often exceed the leading threshold of plain based bullets, when fired in a rifle. Newer powders such as Titegroup or Trail Boss are listed, but my favorite, Bullseye was not. Be careful in reducing slower burners, such as #2400, because ballistic uniformity is impaired if you go below about 16 grains in the .44 Magnum case with 240-gr. bullet.

What follows is my listing of loads which “work” and are well proven over many years of field use. I hope this article shortens your learning curve and that they work as well for you as they do for my friends and me.

Medium Velocity Loads for .44 Mag., 265-gr. Saeco #441 Keith, 1 to 30 Sn-Pb BHN11, unsized .433”, LLA
Case, Primer and_______Velocity____Velocity____Five, 5-shot Groups* @ 50 yds. H&R
Charge Weight_________5-1/2” RBH_H&R 22”*__Largest__Smallest__Average
RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #

Starline .44 Spl. WLP
5.2BE, RCBS LD #10____782, 10Sd__940, 9 Sd____3.0____1.9_____2.46

Remington .44 Mag. WLP
6.0 Bullseye, LD#11_____774, 36Sd__983, 49Sd___2.5____1.9_____2.24
6.6 Bullseye, LD#12_____948, 13Sd__1141, 9Sd___2.5____1.4_____1.94
7.8 Bullseye, LD#14____1017, 11Sd__1233, 10Sd__2.5____1.2_____1.88
16.2 #2400, LD#20_____1080, 39Sd__1411, 44Sd__2.5___1.3_____1.97

Remington .44 Mag. WLP, Remington 240-gr. Semi-Jacketed HP
8.4 Bullseye, LD#15____1033, 11Sd__1197, 15Sd___2.2___1.2_____1.76

[wilecoyote]

as rule of thumb, it's very difficult to do wrong using. 44 spl. data, intended as primer, powder and bullet combo, in .44 magnum cases.
I add a fluff of dacron to keep the powder reasonably close to the primer flame, but there are also conflicting opinions about dacron.
I learned this from an old Guns&Ammo magazine, and since then it worked well for me in revolvers.

[JSnover]

Recoil in a .357 or .44 mag lever gun is NOT like a 30-30. I Hate 30-30 lever guns because the stock configuration usually accentuates recoil; My M700 30-06 does better ballistically and doesn't feel much different.
But I LOVE lever guns in .357 and .44 magnum because even at full pressure they're so dang nice to shoot.

[technojock]

I wanted a 3 screw Super Blackhawk for decades. When I finally got one the recoil would smash my fingers with the trigger guard. I put on a Hogue oversized rubber grip and the it still hurt to shoot just in a different place. Since then I never load it hotter than .44 Special loads and I'm very happy with it now.

About the grips, I have homemade set a friend gave me that are the same shape as factory grips but fatter. I can now shoot full house loads but I don't wanna...

Tony

[kenton]

Hodgdon has a pretty good amount of reloading data that fits what you want to do.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

[Sasquatch-1]

I load 7 to 8 grains of unique under a 250 bullet and shot from handguns with either 6 or 7.5" barrels. almost no felt recoil. Never had a problem. You do have to be careful using Hodgdon H-110 or Winchester 296.

[racepres]

240 CSWC 7.0 gr Red dot..
tho any Unique load from 8.0 Up is good also..
Outpost 75 is correct also about 44-40 data..

[Thumbcocker]

6.5 of red dot is a sweet load under a 250 grain Keith. Over 1000 shots per pound.

[Hickok]

I have an Contender Super 14 in .44 magnum. The recoil from standard .44 mag loads really gets annoying for me.

I decided to load it like a 44/40 rifle ballistics.

My load out of the 14 barrel is just a smidge faster than listed 44/40 rifle data, using .44 magnum cases, 9 gr Unique/lee 44 200 gr RNFP @ 1289 fps. Easy to shoot, and accurate. 44/40's downed deer, bears, critters and men for many years!

This T/C .44 mag recoils harder than other T/C barrels that I have owned when used with full-magnum loads, including a 35 Remington.

A 44/40 load set up for your .44 magnum rifle would be a nice shooter.

[MT Gianni]

6.5 of red dot is a sweet load under a 250 grain Keith. Over 1000 shots per pound.

Yep, the accuracy load for a 45 Colt is just as good in a 44 Mag.

[Three44s]

The 44 mag is a very versatile cartridge for handloading.

Add cast boolits and the cartridge gets even more flexible.

I like Clays and Red Dot for my lightest loads. I do use filler but not for plinking as it’s an added step.

My next powder is Tight Group. Next is Unique, then HS6. With Unique I like the Skeeter load of 8.5 gr in a magnum case pushing a 250 gr cast boolits and above that I load HS6.

Next comes 2400 and finally H110.

[Mint]

The 44 mag is a very versatile cartridge for handloading.

Add cast boolits and the cartridge gets even more flexible.

I like Clays and Red Dot for my lightest loads. I do use filler but not for plinking as it’s an added step.

My next powder is Tight Group. Next is Unique, then HS6. With Unique I like the Skeeter load of 8.5 gr in a magnum case pushing a 250 gr cast boolits and above that I load HS6.

Next comes 2400 and finally H110.

Interesting, I just read about the "skeeter load" because I've seen that mentioned a few times.

Does it matter if I change SWC to RNFP of same grain to load better in a lever gun?

[farmbif]

what your asking is not difficult at all. bullseye powder is very good for light loads in 44 mag it burns great at any angle and no need for fillers like Dacron. there are many powders good for 44 mag. do some looking through the online data from Alliant and hogdon and you will find from mild to top power loads

[Fauquier]

My favorite mild 44 Magnum loads for my Marlin 1894 use a 225 gr. Acme RNFP bullet
sized to .432 diameter . The mildest load is 7.0 gr of Trail Boss. Step up to 8.0-10.0
grains of Unique for a little more velocity.

[JoeJames]

Use .44-40 data in .44 Mag. No brainer. I run 6 grains of Bullseye with Accurate 43-215C.

And I run 7 grains of Unique with a Lee TL 430 240 grain SWC in my Rossi 44 Magnum. Comfortable to shoot - accurate - and does not slam me around at all. Could shoot it all day long.

[wilecoyote]

Interesting, I just read about the "skeeter load" because I've seen that mentioned a few times.Does it matter if I change SWC to RNFP of same grain to load better in a lever gun?
in principle RNFP should be more forgiving about better loading but it depends on the preferences of each individual lever, at what I've learned.
I have one lever only, and mine that is not affected by the difference, about cycling.

[Mint]

Thanks for all the input amigos, I feel a bit better now. I wrote down all these recipes in my spreadsheet.

The reason I was asking is because I have never actually shot a 44 magnum, and I just ordered the rifle below. I have only shot 357, 30-30, 45-70 as the closest lever-gun calibers, but when I heard it was like 30-30 it stressed me out as I've been saving for this gun for awhile, and if it has the recoil of 30-30, OR, it could be loaded down but perhaps not so versatilely, then I would never get to shoot it. It all my research it seemed that it was only slightly more than 357 out of a lever gun, but in my experience 30-30 is absolutely nothing like that. The 30-30 I only want to shoot about 10 or so from a bench, standing isnt bad.

I also heard from someone that 44 mag was harder to load down for than 45LC was to load up for. After seeing your replies though I feel better. Based on what y'all have said it seems 44 magnum is quite versatile cartridge that will have no problems loading SMOOTHLY way down to very low plinking recoil, and way up to salty ball-slappin recoil.

https://i.imgur.com/gD1XnPk.jpg

[Randy Bohannon]

Gorgeous rifle, tell us about it.

[Mint]

Gorgeous rifle, tell us about it.

Thanks! It's a Winchester 1892 Deluxe Takedown model with 24" octagon barrel in 44 magnum. It has period correct bluing, color case hardening and oil finish on the stock. I've been waiting months for it and those months have been long!

[DougGuy]

Dayumn that is PURTIE!!!! I wouldn't shoot that thing I'd put it in a glass case and STARE at it! :bigsmyl2:

All the loads that were posted sound good, about the only real precaution you need to make sure that you don't download H110/W296 below starting weights, this powder likes a 75% or better case density. This one's pretty well known..

[MarkP]

Gorgeous rifle! With that stock configuration recoil will feel much better than the crescent butt plated 92's in 44 mag or 94's in 30-30 / 38-55. My light 44 Mag Load is close to Thumbcocker's load but the LEE 200 gr FN over 7 gr of RED DOT.

[Three44s]

Interesting, I just read about the "skeeter load" because I've seen that mentioned a few times.

Does it matter if I change SWC to RNFP of same grain to load better in a lever gun?

Everything else equal, there should be no problem switching from a SWC to a RNFP at the power level of the Skeeter load.

I should expand a bit on the HS6 powder. It is my drop dead favorite with 250 gr. Lead SWC. My baby is a Smith 629 Mountain Gun. That’s a 4” double action revolver weighing 39 oz.

The load I use comes from the Hodgdons #26 manual, start is 10.0 gr. and the top load is 12.0 gr. Later manuals list heavier charges of that powder with pressures ranging up in the mid 30k range. The book I have places my choice of 11.8 gr in the mid 20k lit with a magnum primer.

Common cast alloy (wheel weights sweetened with 1% tin) has a ultimate yield strength of mid 20k, the same as the above load.

The recoil is agreeable. The accuracy is very good. My velocity runs 1066 FPS out of that 4” barrel and the SD is a paltry 7 FPS.

I am concerned that you may seek a recoil level too low that leads to an unsafe condition, that of sticking a bullet in your barrel. If it were just any rifle I would suggest a recoil pad and load hot enough to preclude a stuck bullet. As gorgeous as you rifle is however perhaps a shoulder pad that you wear is a better answer.

Good luck with your endeavor!

Three44s

[Mint]

Dayumn that is PURTIE!!!! I wouldn't shoot that thing I'd put it in a glass case and STARE at it! :bigsmyl2:

All the loads that were posted sound good, about the only real precaution you need to make sure that you don't download H110/W296 below starting weights, this powder likes a 75% or better case density. This one's pretty well known..

Thank you!! I definitely appreciate you looking over all the loads. I knew to hold off on H110 until I get me feet more wet.

[Mint]

I am concerned that you may seek a recoil level too low that leads to an unsafe condition, that of sticking a bullet in your barrel.

Awesome, all of that makes sense. Perhaps you can expand more on what you might consider 'too low' which would generate a stuck bullet, comparatively speaking?

Just to put it into perspective, I can shoot my 357 magnum lever guns all day long (factory ammo). That might be JUST shy of the sweet spot to me by maybe 10-20%? Keep in mind those were also crescent butt straight stock.

I like enough recoil to make it not seem like I'm shooting a 22, which is like shooting nothing at all. I was debating between the 357 or 44 magnum of this gun. It's lining up based on its look to be my all time favorite plinking and range gun, so naturally I am going to want to shoot it the most, and I'm hoping for it to be most fun to shoot. I chose 44 magnum because I occasionally when shooting 357 wish for more power (when I want to get that tactile feedback). The downside to this though, and really what made me make this thread, was thinking perhaps it's too far in that direction where dialing it back down becomes difficult again. It sounds like though from what people are saying that 357 style recoil seems possible, unless I'm misunderstanding. If that's the case then I would imagine it's perfect. If taking into account that all other guns I have use metal crescent butt plates, that allows just a little more buffer for my definition of comfort considering this gun has a pistol grip.

Still, I would love to hear your perspective on some kind of comparison of what too low might be, and I'll make sure to stay away from there.

[kenton]

Any published load should be fine in your rifle. Where you can get into trouble is with "mouse fart" loads. Loads with something like 3grs of fast pistol under a cast boolit with the intent of making the shot no louder that a pellet gun or a "mouse fart".

[Milky Duck]

you do realise the .30/30 is just as easy to down load???? that long neck is made for cast projectiles and it was origonally a Black powder cartridge.....
funny I used a 30/30 as a teenager and there is no way I would have said heavy recoiling at all....

[Soundguy]

Either load using trailboss data..or load 44mag cases to 44 special data...

[Randy Bohannon]

you do realise the .30/30 is just as easy to down load???? that long neck is made for cast projectiles and it was origonally a Black powder cartridge.....
funny I used a 30/30 as a teenager and there is no way I would have said heavy recoiling at all....


No ,it was never loaded with B/P as a factory round,smokeless and jacketed bullets from the very beginning to this very day.

[Soundguy]

30-30 was the first hunting rifle I owned. Is a 336

[45workhorse]

Dayumn that is PURTIE!!!! I wouldn't shoot that thing I'd put it in a glass case and STARE at it! :bigsmyl2:

All the loads that were posted sound good, about the only real precaution you need to make sure that you don't download H110/W296 below starting weights, this powder likes a 75% or better case density. This one's pretty well known..

It would have to be under glass, just to keep my drool off it!

[racepres]

I would love to hear your perspective on some kind of comparison of what too low might be, and I'll make sure to stay away from there.

Certainly Not going to have any Problems with either 6.5gr+ of Red dot or 7.0gr+ of Unique with cast (only Cast...Not Jacketed) from 200gr Up
and I suspect you will end up at at least a half grain More... they are Mild, in a 4-5/8 Blackhawk!!!

[Mint]

you do realise the .30/30 is just as easy to down load???? that long neck is made for cast projectiles and it was origonally a Black powder cartridge.....
funny I used a 30/30 as a teenager and there is no way I would have said heavy recoiling at all....

Yes I'm aware you can load it down, also 30-30 started as CF, that's why it retired so many other cartridges.

I only started reloading about a week ago, so I have just fired factory 30-30.

I didn't say ALL recoil wasn't enjoyable. My 45-70 is one of the most fun guns to shoot.

My Winchester 94 26" in 30-30, in the context of a plinking gun, with a metal crescent butt and straight stock, and shooting it from a bench instead of standing... that would not be very enjoyable if I want to plink 50-100 rounds, that is what I was referring to "too much". This gun 'ere, the 44, just has an entirely different purpose so less noticeable recoil is a desire.

[Mint]

Any published load should be fine in your rifle. Where you can get into trouble is with "mouse fart" loads. Loads with something like 3grs of fast pistol under a cast boolit with the intent of making the shot no louder that a pellet gun or a "mouse fart".

Aye I see, yeah I have no intention of doin that

[black mamba]

Most SWCs and RFN bullets can be seated deeper in the case, crimping over the shoulder of a SWC or over the ogive of a RN. Seating deeper like this in 44 magnum cases will be very close to the OAL and powder capacity of 44 special loads. Fast, bulky powders such as Red and Green Dot, American Select, 700X, V320 will all give good consistency and accuracy with light loads, no fillers needed. One of my favorites is a commercially available 200 gr. RNFP which is HiTek coated seated to 1.485" OAL in 44 magnum cases over 4.5 gr. of 700X with WLP primers. Gives about 865 fps from my 6½" 629 Classic and is very accurate and light recoiling.

[farmbif]

there are plenty of good published loads for 900-1000 fps 240 gr 44 mag loads using fast powders that are perfectly safe in all aspects. slower powders like h110, 4227, no9, 2400, 300mp are used in full power magnum loads.
on the 30-30 thing from what I understand about it. 30WCF/30-30 and the 25-35 which both came out at about the same time were the first cartridges designed for smokeless powder and can be downloaded very successfully, probably the most published download for it is with h4895 which can be reduced to just about 1/2 the powder than the max load for that powder.
and that sure is one beautiful rifle.

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for all the input amigos, I feel a bit better now. I wrote down all these recipes in my spreadsheet.

The reason I was asking is because I have never actually shot a 44 magnum, and I just ordered the rifle below. I have only shot 357, 30-30, 45-70 as the closest lever-gun calibers, but when I heard it was like 30-30 it stressed me out as I've been saving for this gun for awhile, and if it has the recoil of 30-30, OR, it could be loaded down but perhaps not so versatilely, then I would never get to shoot it. It all my research it seemed that it was only slightly more than 357 out of a lever gun, but in my experience 30-30 is absolutely nothing like that. The 30-30 I only want to shoot about 10 or so from a bench, standing isnt bad.

I also heard from someone that 44 mag was harder to load down for than 45LC was to load up for. After seeing your replies though I feel better. Based on what y'all have said it seems 44 magnum is quite versatile cartridge that will have no problems loading SMOOTHLY way down to very low plinking recoil, and way up to salty ball-slappin recoil.

https://i.imgur.com/gD1XnPk.jpg

That's a fine-looking rifle. Is it a Turnbull?

[Mint]

Yep you got it

[Moleman-]

Nice looking rifle, it is a work of art. 44mag is the cartridge that got me into reloading and there's 400 cleaned and primed cases in 100rnd MTM boxes sitting on my desk right now. It's easy to load plinking loads for so I've never bothered with 44 special. The one thing to be wary of as others have pointed out is to not download H110 or W296. Unique, W231, Green/red Dot, HS-6, bullseye ect are better choices for plinking loads. For top loads H110/W296, 2400, IMR4227, and blue dot are what I use.

[Mint]

Nice looking rifle, it is a work of art. 44mag is the cartridge that got me into reloading and there's 400 cleaned and primed cases in 100rnd MTM boxes sitting on my desk right now. It's easy to load plinking loads for so I've never bothered with 44 special. The one thing to be wary of as others have pointed out is to not download H110 or W296. Unique, W231, Green/red Dot, HS-6, bullseye ect are better choices for plinking loads. For top loads H110/W296, 2400, IMR4227, and blue dot are what I use.

Thank you tremendously, I am beyond excited

[Mint]

Nice looking rifle, it is a work of art. 44mag is the cartridge that got me into reloading and there's 400 cleaned and primed cases in 100rnd MTM boxes sitting on my desk right now. It's easy to load plinking loads for so I've never bothered with 44 special. The one thing to be wary of as others have pointed out is to not download H110 or W296. Unique, W231, Green/red Dot, HS-6, bullseye ect are better choices for plinking loads. For top loads H110/W296, 2400, IMR4227, and blue dot are what I use.

By the way I have read that I can reload light loaded 44 mag over 30 times... is this really true? That would be insane cost savings

[Moleman-]

I'm not sure how many reloadings you can get with light loads, but it's over 30. They'll last a long time if you don't overwork the casemouth with over expanding and over crimping to the point the case mouths crack or have an oversized chamber. I have some 44's and 45acp's that I've been reloading for over 30 years.

[Mint]

I'm not sure how many reloadings you can get with light loads, but it's over 30. They'll last a long time if you don't overwork the casemouth with over expanding and over crimping to the point the case mouths crack or have an oversized chamber. I have some 44's and 45acp's that I've been reloading for over 30 years.

Christ almighty...... that is insane.

do you have any advice for crimping 44 for a lever gun? If not it's fine, I am still waiting on some parts to reload for the first time using a Rock Chucker, maybe in another week, so I will figure it out eventually.

[Moleman-]

I would of never guessed how many times you can reload pistol brass. The case life will be drastically shortened if you're using max loads, but mild plinking loads are easy on brass. For expanding, crimping, just do the minimum needed. No need to bevel out the casemouth to look like a funnel to seat a bullet. I adjust the case mouth bevel so that when I plightly press a bullet in by hand the bullet stays and doesn't shave lead when seated. Crimping for a levergun should be a roll crimp (lee may say taper but it is short enough to act as a roll crimp). Use just enough to secure the bullet in the cannelure so that when you try to press the bullet into the case deeper by pressing it into your reloading bench or a scrap of wood using decent force the bullet stays put.

Several people I've run across over the years figured low powered pistol brass was like high powered rifle brass and only good for a few shots. I'm sure you could ruin them if you tried, but just plinking loads the brass will last a very long time if taken care of.

[Milky Duck]

you do realise the .30/30 is just as easy to down load???? that long neck is made for cast projectiles and it was origonally a Black powder cartridge.....
funny I used a 30/30 as a teenager and there is no way I would have said heavy recoiling at all....


No ,it was never loaded with B/P as a factory round,smokeless and jacketed bullets from the very beginning to this very day.

really...so 30 calibre and 30 grains of black powder as its name implies/suggests is a faulsehood????
the 30/30 was one of if not the first cartridge of its time that WASNT dual purpose,as in it didnt also come in handgun,unlike the 44/40 44 calibre 40 grains black powder 32/20 32 calibre 20 grns black powder etc etc etc

still stand by statement it is a doddle to download and with its long neck it will "embrace" a lubed cast boolit well.

[Milky Duck]

Yes I'm aware you can load it down, also 30-30 started as CF, that's why it retired so many other cartridges.

I only started reloading about a week ago, so I have just fired factory 30-30.

I didn't say ALL recoil wasn't enjoyable. My 45-70 is one of the most fun guns to shoot.

My Winchester 94 26" in 30-30, in the context of a plinking gun, with a metal crescent butt and straight stock, and shooting it from a bench instead of standing... that would not be very enjoyable if I want to plink 50-100 rounds, that is what I was referring to "too much". This gun 'ere, the 44, just has an entirely different purpose so less noticeable recoil is a desire.

you can easily down load it a bit AND slip on a rubber recoil pad..... doesnt change the gun much,length of pull becomes longer but your shoulder will notice difference.

[Mint]

really...so 30 calibre and 30 grains of black powder as its name implies/suggests is a faulsehood????
the 30/30 was one of if not the first cartridge of its time that WASNT dual purpose,as in it didnt also come in handgun,unlike the 44/40 44 calibre 40 grains black powder 32/20 32 calibre 20 grns black powder etc etc etc

still stand by statement it is a doddle to download and with its long neck it will "embrace" a lubed cast boolit well.

Yes my milky friend, that's a falsehood. Right from wikipedia...


The added -30 stands for the standard load of 30 grains (1.9 g) of early smokeless powder and is based on late-19th century American naming conventions for black powder-filled cartridges.


The .30-30 (or "thirty-thirty"), as it is most commonly known, and the .25-35 were offered that year as the United States's first small-bore sporting rifle cartridges designed for smokeless powder

[JoeJames]

I'm not sure how many reloadings you can get with light loads, but it's over 30. They'll last a long time if you don't overwork the casemouth with over expanding and over crimping to the point the case mouths crack or have an oversized chamber. I have some 44's and 45acp's that I've been reloading for over 30 years.

Same here with 32S&W Longs, 38 Specials, and 44 Specials - they just keep on keeping on. I did actually have split case mouth occur though - it was a nickle plated 38 Special case. I had read some mutterings on here that they were more prone to split at the case mouth than regular brass, and sho nuff one did. I now try to keep the nickle ones separate and unused - primers being so scarce.

[Mint]

Same here with 32S&W Longs, 38 Specials, and 44 Specials - they just keep on keeping on. I did actually have split case mouth occur though - it was a nickle plated 38 Special case. I had read some mutterings on here that they were more prone to split at the case mouth than regular brass, and sho nuff one did. I now try to keep the nickle ones separate and unused - primers being so scarce.

Do you have to trim them after awhile or they just dont need to be trimmed forever?

[DougGuy]

For top loads H110/W296, 2400, IMR4227, and blue dot are what I use.

Don't leave out AA#9 it's right there with 2400.

Also LilGun! This burns on the hot side but unless you are driving Casull or Linebaugh level loads, nothing to worry about. It gets H110 velocities with less than H110 pressures.

[Mint]

Don't leave out AA#9 it's right there with 2400.

Also LilGun! This burns on the hot side but unless you are driving Casull or Linebaugh level loads, nothing to worry about. It gets H110 velocities with less than H110 pressures.

Just to make sure my simple beginner reloading brain has this correct... if something can attain higher velocity at less pressure, this means it is a slower burning powder correct? Can anything else effect that?

[racepres]

I too have been reloading the 44Mag for over 30 years...that and the 357 were my first reloaded rounds... with a Lee Loader!!!
The Lee Loader will Not over work the neck...and a Lyman M die, was my first "accessory" when I got a press, (after I got out of the Canoe Club).. The M die must not be overworking my brass...Because I still have some of the original 50!!!! The oners that split were probably due to a too heavy Crimp.. The Recoil of an Octagon, 10" TC in 44 told me a Crimp Must Be Necessary... But...Alas.. seems the 10" octagon TC is about the very Worst recoiling Handgun I have Ever Handled.. That crimp was unnecessary..
But I feel that the M die is a downright necessity!!!

[racepres]

Just to make sure my simple beginner reloading brain has this correct... if something can attain higher velocity at less pressure, this means it is a slower burning powder correct? Can anything else effect that?
Not possible.. Pressure equals FPS.. Period.. "peak" and pressure along with Time... have an Effect..
Think "slap" and "push".. For any Given Projectile...
Cast go faster with a given pressure applied...due to less Friction..
Use your Chronograph!!! Compare.. take Notes.. Remember, No Free lunch!!!

[Milky Duck]

Yes my milky friend, that's a falsehood. Right from wikipedia...

well buggamesideways....I learn something new every day.....

[Milky Duck]

if you look at reloading charts from powder manufacturers it is very interesting indeed...
when I built a .45/70 the logical thing to do was start with lower pressure loads and creep up slowly...easy thinks I....trailboss is in cabinet,we shall use this...ERRRR WRONG!!!!!!! to achieve same velocity the TB loads were higher pressure than using AR2208 ..... so it didnt get used... I went with black powder for slower loads and keep the small amount of 2208 for hot loads.
TB is dead simple to use and is a lot of fun...in fact if you can get it,something around 5-6-7grns in the 30/30 behind a 150ish weight projectile will have your plinking sorted and fun had by all....I say 5-6-7 because the 5 was used in 7.62x39mm case and 8 is pretty normal in .308 case to achieve a load close to just barely subsonic....eg very quiet but not mouse fart silly quiet.use std primers not the magnum ones or the amount of power used to keep load quiet goes down to stupidly light amounts..the difference is 1-2grns!!!!!!!

[Mint]

Not possible.. Pressure equals FPS.. Period.. "peak" and pressure along with Time... have an Effect..
Think "slap" and "push".. For any Given Projectile...
Cast go faster with a given pressure applied...due to less Friction..
Use your Chronograph!!! Compare.. take Notes.. Remember, No Free lunch!!!

I should have phrased my question differently. What I meant to say is:


if something can attain higher velocity at less MAX/PEAK pressure, this means it is a slower burning powder correct?

[racepres]

I should have phrased my question differently. What I meant to say is:

Maybe..
Since I do Not have the equipment to Measure such goings on... I will Not claim to Know..
I use what Works..and a little bit (all I gots) of common sense..
If My Chrono shows more FPS for a given projectile/cartridge, than others report...I assume.. even without measuring equipment,.. that my Pressure is excessive..

[Mint]

Maybe..
Since I do Not have the equipment to Measure such goings on... I will Not claim to Know..
I use what Works..and a little bit (all I gots) of common sense..
If My Chrono shows more FPS for a given projectile/cartridge, than others report...I assume.. even without measuring equipment,.. that my Pressure is excessive..

That's good :D

In the case of what the person I was replying to said:


It gets H110 velocities with less than H110 pressures

One thing that I do know is higher velocities can be attained by lower peak pressure, simply because the pressure builds up inside quicker than the pressure decreases from the chamber volume increasing due to the bullet leaving the barrel. A fast burning powder can generate very large pressures before the bullet hardly travels. In a slower powder, the pressure builds more slowly, and the bullet has more time to move to decrease pressure, so the peak pressure can be less but the average pressure (as far as I know) will always be more.

I was mostly wondering if this were the ONLY situation where the statement I quoted is true (all other things being equal, like barrel length, etc)

[JoeJames]

Do you have to trim them after awhile or they just dont need to be trimmed forever?Been reloading pistol rounds for @40 years, and never have seen a reason to trim them unlike say 556/223 or 308. Straight wall pistol cases are wonderful compared to bottle neck rifle cases.

[Mint]

Been reloading pistol rounds for @40 years, and never have seen a reason to trim them unlike say 556/223 or 308. Straight wall pistol cases are wonderful compared to bottle neck rifle cases.

Ok, that's what this reloading manual said but still.......... 40 years of reloading LMAO, just had to be sure. That just blows my mind. You been reloading a single piece of brass longer than I have been alive.

[JoeJames]

Ok, that's what this reloading manual said but still.......... 40 years of reloading LMAO, just had to be sure. That just blows my mind. You been reloading a single piece of brass longer than I have been alive.Well it's not like I have solely been reloading the same 50 rounds. But they have cycled back and forth over the years. 25 or 30 years ago I used to shoot with the East Arkansas Peace Officers Assn. at their regular pistol shoots (wheelguns). They used to have bunches of donated prizes - I always went for factory reloaded 38 Special ammo wadcutters and semi-wadcutters. That was probably the last factory loaded pistol ammo I got.

[DougGuy]

Just to make sure my simple beginner reloading brain has this correct... if something can attain higher velocity at less pressure, this means it is a slower burning powder correct? Can anything else effect that?

I'm sure it can, as any variable seems to leave a mark somewhere in the scheme of things. I don't have pressure testing equipment, but reading up on LilGun you may find some explanations that may address your question.

[Moleman-]

Rarely over the years have I had to trim 44mag, but not never. I think the last time I set up the case trimmer and went through all of my fired brass was before I was a father and my youngest is in highschool. I have spot trimmed a batch here and there if they were longer than I like to use. The 400 cases on my desk each had about 10-15 per 100rnd box that were over the max case length. Luckily I've got enough cases to just swap them with the same headstamp from another box and worry about trimming them another day.

Another thing to be mindful of is the hornady cases that come loaded with their 225FTX are 1.255" and not the standard 1.275" trim to-1.285" max case length.

[Mint]

Rarely over the years have I had to trim 44mag, but not never. I think the last time I set up the case trimmer and went through all of my fired brass was before I was a father and my youngest is in highschool. I have spot trimmed a batch here and there if they were longer than I like to use. The 400 cases on my desk each had about 10-15 per 100rnd box that were over the max case length. Luckily I've got enough cases to just swap them with the same headstamp from another box and worry about trimming them another day.

Another thing to be mindful of is the hornady cases that come loaded with their 225FTX are 1.255" and not the standard 1.275" trim to-1.285" max case length.

I bought 1000 starline .44 mag brass. Do you think I should check each one when I get them? I have read in this reloading book I should trim them when I first buy them

[Kosh75287]

Just to make sure my simple beginner reloading brain has this correct... if something can attain higher velocity at less pressure, this means it is a slower burning powder correct? Can anything else effect that?
I think that's GENERALLY correct for propellants, particularly when all other factors are as equal as possible. I'd ALSO not be surprised that some of them may be exceptions to that. No example comes to mind, but the moment that I tell you it's a hard & fast rule, I'll be blind-sided by the mention of one that does NOT act thus.

[Moleman-]

I bought 1000 starline .44 mag brass. Do you think I should check each one when I get them? I have read in this reloading book I should trim them when I first buy them

I'd run them through your sizer and check the lengths on them. Son bought 1000 starline 45 Colt for his Henry over the summer. They had very little bullet tension until sized, so we ran them through the progressive with a sizer in station #1 even though they were new. He checked the lengths, but they were all very uniform. I had some Remington 44mag I got from MidwayUSA from back in the early 90's that weren't very uniform for length though.

Another thing on case longevity. Was at the local gun store in the early 90's and they had a bunch of fired 44 mag brass in MTM 100rnd boxes. The boxes were labeled well showing many reloads going back at least to the mid 80's by it turns out a guy named Greg who was a coworker. He was very detail orentated and had even filled in the headstamps with different colors of paint to keep the boxes of brass separate. He was going through a divorce and his wife sold all of his gun stuff. I bought about 10 boxes of 44mag and 45acp boxes. The next time I saw Greg I mention this and tried to give him back his ammo boxes which he declined. I'm reminded of that every time I run across some of that brass that has red, green or blue paint in the headstamp.

[downzero]

Not only is the answer to your question no, you shouldn't be shooting crazy hot loads in your 1873 either. A Winchester 1873 was never made to be a 357 Magnum. With modern metal it might hold up okay, but it isn't a design I'd be hot rodding. I only shoot cowboy loads in mine.

[Mint]

Not only is the answer to your question no, you shouldn't be shooting crazy hot loads in your 1873 either. A Winchester 1873 was never made to be a 357 Magnum. With modern metal it might hold up okay, but it isn't a design I'd be hot rodding. I only shoot cowboy loads in mine.

Thanks for looking out. I only shoot low power loads in my .357 1873 (loaded by someone else, soon to be myself). The topic of this post is an 1892 though (I'll be shooting both low and high power loads in that)

[Mint]

Well it's not like I have solely been reloading the same 50 rounds. But they have cycled back and forth over the years. 25 or 30 years ago I used to shoot with the East Arkansas Peace Officers Assn. at their regular pistol shoots (wheelguns). They used to have bunches of donated prizes - I always went for factory reloaded 38 Special ammo wadcutters and semi-wadcutters. That was probably the last factory loaded pistol ammo I got.

Lol I'm retarded, I misread it. But I thought about it a moment and it seemed really crazy... but if you had something like 5000 rounds, and you could load brass 40+ times, I could see it as a possibility

[M-Tecs]

One of the more graphic examples peak pressure verse powders longer pressure curves are Trail Boss loads. In some loads like below Trail Boss tends to produce lower velocities for equal pressures or higher pressures than most other powders. This is straight from the Hodgdon reloading data center for 45 Colt.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

250 GR. CAST LRNFP
Hodgdon Trail Boss 0.452" 1.600" 5.8 727fps 12,700 PSI
IMR PB 0.452" 1.600" 6.8 875fps 12,700 PSI
IMR SR 4756 0.452" 1.600" 9.0 864fps 12,200 PSI

If pressure curves did not make a difference the velocity would be equal for the same pressures. They are not.

[Mint]

Hodgdon Trail Boss
0.452"
1.600"
5.8
727fps
12,700 PSI

IMR PB 0.452" 1.600" 6.8 875fps 12,700 PSI
IMR SR 4756 0.452" 1.600" 9.0 864fps 12,200 PSI

Fixed your formatting

[M-Tecs]

Hodgdon Trail Boss
0.452"
1.600"
5.8
727fps
12,700 PSI

IMR PB 0.452" 1.600" 6.8 875fps 12,700 PSI
IMR SR 4756 0.452" 1.600" 9.0 864fps 12,200 PSI

Fixed your formatting

Thanks. When I type it the format is correct however when I post it the format is compressed. Same for cut and paste using tabs. This is not the first time I have had that issue. What's your secret?

[Mint]

Thanks. When I type it the format is correct however when I post it the format is compressed. Same for cut and paste using tabs. This is not the first time I have had that issue. What's your secret?

It's rather painstaking but if you go to reply, and then "go to advanced", there is an icon at the top under where you bold something, that looks like a white box. It lets you insert a table.

... means a row, and ... means text within a cell.

Its easier though if you just use this, which generates the code for you

https://www.teamopolis.com/tools/bbcode-table-generator.aspx

[wilecoyote]

I bought 1000 starline .44 mag brass. Do you think I should check each one when I get them? I have read in this reloading book I should trim them when I first buy them

I would size them all, then verifying and, if necessary, trimming them with a Lee .44mag. case gauge & trimmer combo.
this will ensure the uniform height and, once loaded, the same crimp for all_

[Mint]

I would size them all, then verifying and, if necessary, trimming them with a Lee .44mag. case gauge & trimmer combo.
this will ensure the uniform height and, once loaded, the same crimp for all_

Just so I'm understanding, I basically size the empty brass before I start the whole loading process, only once, for new brass. Is that right? (and obviously after each reload, but additionally an extra time before loading for the first time)

[JoeJames]

Being quite lazy, have never sized new Starline brass. Not had any problems with 44 Special, other than needing to bell the case mouths for cast bullets, which is what I always use. Not had any problems in the last 6 or 7 years.

[Kosh75287]

MINT, I've done that both ways with "new from the box" brass and could never tell any difference between the methods. If you later acquire "custom" dies for one of your rifles, obviously, that might change things.
The "after every firing" thing is also correct. Also, the amount of pressure to which the brass is subjected will determine the effort (on the press lever) needed to resize.
I had a box full of .45 Colt brass that I'd used for magnum-level loads separated by a divider from brass that I'd used to duplicate factory performance. One day of new playful puppy, too long unsupervised, and the divider is removed and partly chewed, along with a fully jostled and well-mixed box of .45 Colt brass. Lamenting my use of the same head stamp for both ammo lots, I started resizing. A .45 Colt load of 8.0/Unique/250 gr RNFP may generate more pressure than SAAMI spec (14,000 psi), but not MUCH more. It resized fairly easily. The rifle load, 19.5/2400/250 gr. RNFP, however, most ASSUREDLY did. These cases made me glad I was using a Rockchucker for the task.

[wilecoyote]

Just so I'm understanding, I basically size the empty brass before I start the whole loading process, only once, for new brass. Is that right? (and obviously after each reload, but additionally an extra time before loading for the first time)

I do this but I know and I admit I'm OCD.
the costs of the materials involved justify to me as much care as possible.
then, if I shoot badly, I prefer to think that it is certainly the shooter's fault,
but maybe am me.

[Mint]

MINT, I've done that both ways with "new from the box" brass and could never tell any difference between the methods. If you later acquire "custom" dies for one of your rifles, obviously, that might change things.
The "after every firing" thing is also correct. Also, the amount of pressure to which the brass is subjected will determine the effort (on the press lever) needed to resize.
I had a box full of .45 Colt brass that I'd used for magnum-level loads separated by a divider from brass that I'd used to duplicate factory performance. One day of new playful puppy, too long unsupervised, and the divider is removed and partly chewed, along with a fully jostled and well-mixed box of .45 Colt brass. Lamenting my use of the same head stamp for both ammo lots, I started resizing. A .45 Colt load of 8.0/Unique/250 gr RNFP may generate more pressure than SAAMI spec (14,000 psi), but not MUCH more. It resized fairly easily. The rifle load, 19.5/2400/250 gr. RNFP, however, most ASSUREDLY did. These cases made me glad I was using a Rockchucker for the task.

Ha!! Good ol puppers makin life difficult (and amazing) from day one.

Ok thanks, I'm also glad I started with a Rock Chucker...

So far I have been reading for about 4-5 days straight now. I just ordered neck expanders for .002 and .003 neck tension (magazine tube), as well as 44 mag brass, and I also got some extra powder (Bullseye, IMR-4227). I also got some cast boolitisitos (44 mag .430, 200gr and 250gr).

Also some beef jerky :groner:

Also my cast bullet book comes today

[farmbif]

I would size them all, then verifying and, if necessary, trimming them with a Lee .44mag. case gauge & trimmer combo.
this will ensure the uniform height and, once loaded, the same crimp for all_

ive been using starline brass for decades and have never had to do anything to new brass but put a primer, powder and projectile in them and expand the mouth as little as necessary. unless they have made drastic changes to the quality control in the past year or so there is no need to run it though a sizer first. the most recent calibers ive gotten from them is 45 colt and 6.5 creed moor and all of it has been perfect right out of the box just the same as the first 357 brass I got from them at least 30 years ago.

[Mint]

I have one other beginner reloading question... so I read in the Lyman book that when I use a specific bullet, I need to seat to the COAL specified under that specific bullet in the load data.

This is probably a very dumb question, but why would it not be consistent across every bullet? I am asking because I am concerned that I'm not buying the exact bullets in the book, I'm getting the appropriate wider diameter (+0.001) but they're different brands. I want to know how to seat it properly if I don't have a COAL that the book is telling me.

For instance, on a .44 magnum cartridge, which headspaces from the breech face to the front of the rim, ... then why wouldn't the bullet seating not just always remain what is specified in the load data diagram, which is 1.610

As a sidenote, I understand that people will long the bullet closer to the lands, and this improves accuracy, but still I don't think that changes my question because I would imagine all bullets equally would move closer to the lands, so that each one wouldn't really affect the COAL?

I am also confused why some bullets are over the spec diagram (1.645), while others are the same as the diagram (1.610)

[wilecoyote]

ive been using starline brass for decades and have never had to do anything to new brass but put a primer, powder and projectile in them and expand the mouth as little as necessary. unless they have made drastic changes to the quality control in the past year or so there is no need to run it though a sizer first. the most recent calibers ive gotten from them is 45 colt and 6.5 creed moor and all of it has been perfect right out of the box just the same as the first 357 brass I got from them at least 30 years ago.

...in rifle calibers, even more so when bottleneck cases, personally I become even more OCD,
but this does not question the quality of Starline brass, nor of other respected names, let alone the validity of practices different than mine.
as said, mine are probably obsessions, if not my own voodoo extensions :)

(not infrequently it happened to me to buy new case boxes and find deformed ones during handling, packaging or shipping. and I'm talking about Norma, Lapua, Sako_ rather than discovering it late, I prefer systematically to operate as I said and start with a reasonable certainty of homogeneity)

[racepres]

I have one other beginner reloading question... so I read in the Lyman book that when I use a specific bullet, I need to seat to the COAL specified under that specific bullet in the load data.

This is probably a very dumb question, but why would it not be consistent across every bullet? I am asking because I am concerned that I'm not buying the exact bullets in the book, I'm getting the appropriate wider diameter (+0.001) but they're different brands. I want to know how to seat it properly if I don't have a COAL that the book is telling me.

For instance, on a .44 magnum cartridge, which headspaces from the breech face to the front of the rim, ... then why wouldn't the bullet seating not just always remain what is specified in the load data diagram, which is 1.610

As a sidenote, I understand that people will long the bullet closer to the lands, and this improves accuracy, but still I don't think that changes my question because I would imagine all bullets equally would move closer to the lands, so that each one wouldn't really affect the COAL?

I am also confused why some bullets are over the spec diagram (1.645), while others are the same as the diagram (1.610)

Short n Sweet
Differnt Bullet Shape ..changes the amount of Bullet (projectile) Inside the case... stealing Room ..changes Pressure..

[Mint]

Short n Sweet
Differnt Bullet Shape ..changes the amount of Bullet (projectile) Inside the case... stealing Room ..changes Pressure..

Ooooo... right... Thanks. that is obvious in retrospect.

So what dimensions do I look at to figure out the proper seating depth of an arbitrary bullet?

[Bazoo]

Think of it this way.

With special level or starting level magnums, or anywhere in between, you have a pressure safety buffer so to speak. Off memory, 44 mag is 35k psi. So if you load a 15k psi load like 7 grains unique, basically a special level load in mag cases, you have a large buffer of safety so that if your bullet seats a bit deeper than the books bullet, or is a bit heavier, you still won’t be anywhere near max pressure.

For seating depth, the measurement doesn’t make any real difference. Seat to the crimp groove. If you seat to about 3/4 the crimp groove, then you will be about right.

[racepres]

Well Said... I seat to crimp groove...always..even if I feel a need to adjust powder charge +/-

[JoeJames]

Think of it this way.

With special level or starting level magnums, or anywhere in between, you have a pressure safety buffer so to speak. Off memory, 44 mag is 35k psi. So if you load a 15k psi load like 7 grains unique, basically a special level load in mag cases, you have a large buffer of safety so that if your bullet seats a bit deeper than the books bullet, or is a bit heavier, you still won’t be anywhere near max pressure.

For seating depth, the measurement doesn’t make any real difference. Seat to the crimp groove. If you seat to about 3/4 the crimp groove, then you will be about right.I agree 100%. With Lee TL cast bullets which have a number of crimp grooves I crimp at the upper most crimp groove. And then with revolver loads I do a plunk test to make sure it will easily chamber in the revolver chambers.
306132

[Mint]

I agree 100%. With Lee TL cast bullets which have a number of crimp grooves I crimp at the upper most crimp groove. And then with revolver loads I do a plunk test to make sure it will easily chamber in the revolver chambers.
306132

This was another pending question I had but I didnt ask yet because I'm right on the page starting 'cast bullets' in the lyman manual for today, and I'm assuming they talk about this. I'm methodically working my way there, but just because you mentioned it...

What do you mean 3/4 groove? I notice some bullets will have:

1) no grooves, but still a groove at the top

https://missouribullet.com/cw3/assets/product_full/ht_38match-gl.jpg

2) several uneven grooves, usually 1 type of groove and then multiple of the same different type:

https://i.imgur.com/ztTotBk.png

https://i.imgur.com/nG26plW.jpg

3) even more grooves, must still a groove at the top

https://www.grafs.com/uploads/product-picture/preview/75203.jpg

What are all these for and how do I use them

[Bazoo]

3/4 groove, I meant as seat your bullet depth into the case so that the mouth of the case is not at the top of the crimp groove, nor the bottom, but stops at about 3/4 of the way up the crimp groove.

The bullet with only 1 groove is smooth because with powder coated or similar coating they don’t need lube grooves. The top groove is a crimp groove, the rest are lube grooves regardless of how many. An exception is that there are occasional bullets with 2 crimp grooves to offer a choice of seating depth. Lyman 358156 bullet is like this.

So you might ask why some bullets are powder coated but still retain the lube grooves? It’s because either that style bullet is popular and reloaders will accept the advantages of powder coating but don’t want to change from a known accurate bullet design. Or it may be because the companies that make them bought the moulds for lubed bullets, and continued to use them after switching to PC. No reason to give up on a mould that casts good and retool. The other reason is, let’s say you have 429421 bullets. Data everywhere and it’s been pressure tested a lot. Powder coating it doesn’t make all that info useless though it likely affects the pressure slightly. But changing lube types also affects pressure some. Staying with the traditional bullet makes a lot of sense. Also, the number and size of the grooves / bearing surface variation, affects pressure. So a bullet with no grooves has more bearing surface and will make more pressure than the identical bullet with lube grooves.

Pearce, in handloader magazine has published several articles on down loading the 44 mag. I don’t know if I have them. But it’s worth checking out if anyone knows the magazine numbers to look for? He covers basically what you’re doing with some data, most of which will be pressure tested.

[Mint]

3/4 groove, I meant as seat your bullet depth into the case so that the mouth of the case is not at the top of the crimp groove, nor the bottom, but stops at about 3/4 of the way up the crimp groove.

The bullet with only 1 groove is smooth because with powder coated or similar coating they don’t need lube grooves. The top groove is a crimp groove, the rest are lube grooves regardless of how many. An exception is that there are occasional bullets with 2 crimp grooves to offer a choice of seating depth. Lyman 358156 bullet is like this.

So you might ask why some bullets are powder coated but still retain the lube grooves? It’s because either that style bullet is popular and reloaders will accept the advantages of powder coating but don’t want to change from a known accurate bullet design. Or it may be because the companies that make them bought the moulds for lubed bullets, and continued to use them after switching to PC. No reason to give up ona mould that casts good and retool. The other reason is, let’s say you have 429421 bullets. Data everywhere and it’s been pressure tested a lot. Powder coating it doesn’t make all that info useless though it likely affects the pressure slightly. But changing lube types also affects pressure some. Staying with the traditional bullet makes a lot of sense. Also, the number and size of the grooves / bearing surface variation, affects pressure. So a bullet with no grooves has more bearing surface and will make more pressure than the identical bullet with lube grooves.

Pearce, in handloader magazine has published several articles on down loading the 44 mag. I don’t know if I have them. But it’s worth checking out if anyone knows the magazine numbers to look for? He covers basically what you’re doing with some data, most of which will be pressure tested.

Ah, very interesting. Great explanation! So I assume with all Hi-tek bullets then (what I'm using) I dont really need to worry about the bottom grooves at all then, and maybe even should buy grooveless bullets.

PS and yes, if you find that magazine let me know I'd love to see that

[Bazoo]

Lube grooves are not needed with PC or hi tek but I personally wouldn’t try to exclude bullets with lube grooves. Bullets have a balance when flying. The size and shape of the groove affects that. Lube grooves also play a part in how the bullet cuts through the wind, particularly if the bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic during its flight. With short range 44s that’s not an issue however. Lube grooves also serve as a crush zone when the bullets enter the rifling. The top portion of bullet hits the rifling and begins to twist before the bottom. Now, in that split second, is it really an issue? Sometimes it could be, but likely not in your case. So the short of it is, I’d use whatever I could get if it suited my fancy, lube grooves or not.

I ain’t fully kept up with your endeavors, so if someone hasn’t mentioned it, I will. You should find a local mentor. If you’re near me I’m glad to teach you. Not to say you shouldn’t ask a million questions here. But it will shorten your learning curve. I learned with no mentor, reading all o could and asking questions here and other places.

[Mint]

Lube grooves are not needed with PC or hi tek but I personally wouldn’t try to exclude bullets with lube grooves. Bullets have a balance when flying. The size and shape of the groove affects that. Lube grooves also play a part in how the bullet cuts through the wind, particularly if the bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic during its flight. With short range 44s that’s not an issue however. Lube grooves also serve as a crush zone when the bullets enter the rifling. The top portion of bullet hits the rifling and begins to twist before the bottom. Now, in that split second, is it really an issue? Sometimes it could be, but likely not in your case. So the short of it is, I’d use whatever I could get if it suited my fancy, lube grooves or not.

I ain’t fully kept up with your endeavors, so if someone hasn’t mentioned it, I will. You should find a local mentor. If you’re near me I’m glad to teach you. Not to say you shouldn’t ask a million questions here. But it will shorten your learning curve. I learned with no mentor, reading all o could and asking questions here and other places.

Thanks. Unfortunately I had someone who was going to help me reload but after i talked to him for longer I started to piece together inaccurate information he was telling me, and I lost interest in learning from him. I'll still be on the lookout when I go to the range... I remember seeing a bench rest shooter who had what looked like $10,000 of gear. It literally took him 20 minutes to unpack his notebooks, boxes, cables, gear, electronic boxes, etc. I'm sure he would be good to talk to :-o

In the meantime, I've just been reading in books and online for maybe 8-10 hours a day. I'm on like day 5 now and I feel like I have a really pretty solid grasp. It will only be maybe 4-5 more days before my primers/brass/powder get here and I can actually begin. The good news is I am not intimidated by the learning curve at all. My normal trade is extremely difficult so I am very accustomed to punishing learning curves, and really enjoy it because it's mentally stimulating.

[JoeJames]

Lube grooves are not needed with PC or hi tek but I personally wouldn’t try to exclude bullets with lube grooves. Bullets have a balance when flying. The size and shape of the groove affects that. Lube grooves also play a part in how the bullet cuts through the wind, particularly if the bullet goes from supersonic to subsonic during its flight. With short range 44s that’s not an issue however. Lube grooves also serve as a crush zone when the bullets enter the rifling. The top portion of bullet hits the rifling and begins to twist before the bottom. Now, in that split second, is it really an issue? Sometimes it could be, but likely not in your case. So the short of it is, I’d use whatever I could get if it suited my fancy, lube grooves or not.

I ain’t fully kept up with your endeavors, so if someone hasn’t mentioned it, I will. You should find a local mentor. If you’re near me I’m glad to teach you. Not to say you shouldn’t ask a million questions here. But it will shorten your learning curve. I learned with no mentor, reading all o could and asking questions here and other places.I agree again. One thing about lube grooves and why I would avoid cast bullets without lube grooves - other folks are far more expert than I am for sure, but I guess and kind of assume that the lube grooves also serve a purpose in obturating the soft alloy bullet into the rifling grooves. That is instead of the full sides of the whole bullet having to fill into the rifling grooves just the flanges do so? (not sure if that is the proper word) would have to fill the rifling grooves completely down to the bottom of the lube grooves?

[Bazoo]

Nothing wrong with learning without a mentor and it’s really quite easy. Reloading is not hard at all. But understanding what happens and why, in both reloading and ballistics, is the hard part. You don’t have to understand it to do it safely, but it sure helps.

To learn setting up the dies, which is the hardest part, make a few dummy cartridges. That is, no powder or primer. I still make dummies to test out new gear or settings.

[Bazoo]

Nice rifle by the way. Very nice.

To hit on a few notes from the thread here, with moderate loads you can expect 20+ reloads on your brass. I once loaded a 30-30 case to failure, to see how many reloads it would take. You might find it interesting https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?382095-30-30-Case-Life-Test

Pistol brass ends it’s life in one of two ways normally. Primer pockets getting loose, which will let hot gas by and burn your bolt face. This is more an issue with high pressure loads. Or splits at the mouth, maybe the body. The mouth splitting is the most common reason and could be mitigated by annealing.

As far as trimming. I trim all my revolver brass once so that it’s consistent. Consistent crimp is important for accuracy, and anything other than a collet crimp die relies on consistent case length.

44 mag or 357 mag, in full pressure loadings will stretch cases and eventually may need trimming again. Usually though they don’t get reloaded at this level enough to cause lengthening and will instead get shorter. They get shorter from working the brass during reloading, not firing. When they get longer, it’s because pressure grips the front of the case against the chamber walls while the pressure pushes against the case moving its base rearward, stretching it.

[Mint]

Nice rifle by the way. Very nice.

To hit on a few notes from the thread here, with moderate loads you can expect 20+ reloads on your brass. I once loaded a 30-30 case to failure, to see how many reloads it would take. You might find it interesting https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?382095-30-30-Case-Life-Test

Pistol brass ends it’s life in one of two ways normally. Primer pockets getting loose, which will let hot gas by and burn your bolt face. This is more an issue with high pressure loads. Or splits at the mouth, maybe the body. The mouth splitting is the most common reason and could be mitigated by annealing.

As far as trimming. I trim all my revolver brass once so that it’s consistent. Consistent crimp is important for accuracy, and anything other than a collet crimp die relies on consistent case length.

44 mag or 357 mag, in full pressure loadings will stretch cases and eventually may need trimming again. Usually though they don’t get reloaded at this level enough to cause lengthening and will instead get shorter. They get shorter from working the brass during reloading, not firing. When they get longer, it’s because pressure grips the front of the case against the chamber walls while the pressure pushes against the case moving its base rearward, stretching it.

Awesome information, thank you. That post was a very good read

[Bazoo]

As per recoil, I’ve fired several 357 mag rifles and several 30-30 rifles. Never a 44 mag. I’d guess a full pressure 44 mag to be on par with a 30-30. But I’d say a light 44 mag, like 10 grains unique under a 250 grain bullet would be less recoil than a full pressure 357 mag.

The real key to easy shooting is a lighter bullet. A 200 grain bullet is going to kick much less than a 250 grain bullet, but still have a good thump.

Shooting a 30-30 from the bench is unpleasant because of stock shape and gun weight. The key here is to hold the gun with two hands, resting your off hand in the cradle, and using an upright sitting position so the gun is positioned similar to when shooting offhand. Leverguns, like my Winchester 94, were made to shoot offhand, not from the bench.

[Mint]

As per recoil, I’ve fired several 357 mag rifles and several 30-30 rifles. Never a 44 mag. I’d guess a full pressure 44 mag to be on par with a 30-30. But I’d say a light 44 mag, like 10 grains unique under a 250 grain bullet would be less recoil than a full pressure 357 mag.

The real key to easy shooting is a lighter bullet. A 200 grain bullet is going to kick much less than a 250 grain bullet, but still have a good thump.

Shooting a 30-30 from the bench is unpleasant because of stock shape and gun weight. The key here is to hold the gun with two hands, resting your off hand in the cradle, and using an upright sitting position so the gun is positioned similar to when shooting offhand. Leverguns, like my Winchester 94, were made to shoot offhand, not from the bench.

Where is the "cradle" for my off hand? I usually place my off hand on the very frontward portion of the front handguard toward the muzzle. Is there a better place?

[Kosh75287]

I think the "cradle" is the U-shaped part of the support that would normally hold the fore end of your rifle. If I follow BAZOO'S instructions right, you place your non-shooting hand, palm up in the U-shaped part, lay the fore end of your rifle in it, grip it firmly (but not FIERCELY), with an effort to push it back firmly into your shoulder. This will help reduce the rifle muzzle's tendency to rise, and help minimize the felt recoil of the round.
BAZOO, feel free to jump in, if I don't have this exactly right.
SOME "cradles" on shooting benches are more V-shaped, which I find a p.i.t.a.
Your "off" hand position to the forward-most part of the fore end is probably okay. If it better enables you to exert backward effort to push the rifle butt firmly into your shoulder, so much the better. I see this hand position often when shooters much over 6' tall shoot short lever carbines. We "6-foot & under" shooters tend to grip the fore end more toward in middle, especially if there's checkering to grip.

[Mint]

I think the "cradle" is the U-shaped part of the support that would normally hold the fore end of your rifle. If I follow BAZOO'S instructions right, you place your non-shooting hand, palm up in the U-shaped part, lay the fore end of your rifle in it, grip it firmly (but not FIERCELY), with an effort to push it back firmly into your shoulder. This will help reduce the rifle muzzle's tendency to rise, and help minimize the felt recoil of the round.
BAZOO, feel free to jump in, if I don't have this exactly right.
SOME "cradles" on shooting benches are more V-shaped, which I find a p.i.t.a.
Your "off" hand position to the forward-most part of the fore end is probably okay. If it better enables you to exert backward effort to push the rifle butt firmly into your shoulder, so much the better. I see this hand position often when shooters much over 6' tall shoot short lever carbines. We "6-foot & under" shooters tend to grip the fore end more toward in middle, especially if there's checkering to grip.

Ah ok that makes sense. I'm one of those 6 foot and over shooters, with that said this also isn't a carbine. That position is pretty greuling on el ol 1886 26" :-x

[Bazoo]

Maybe cradle ain’t the best term. When shooting from the bench, with a bolt action rifle. The front of the stock rests in a cradle, or on a rest. This is what I mean. And the off hand goes under the buttstock most often. But for leverguns it’s better to have your off hand gripping as you would when shooting offhand, at the front of the forestock and rest the back of your hand against the support or in the cradle.

And having the supports higher so you sit upright verses leaning forward or slumped, helps control recoil. But makes for a less stable shooting platform.

I rarely shoot from the bench. I most often shoot from sitting, back supported, rested off my knee. I shoot off the bench more when I want to test loads but might test from a field position too if I ain’t feeling like tabling my gun.

[Bazoo]

One thing to consider on that note, shooting a levergun from a bench rest, if not holding the forestock, you risk shearing the band or forearm screws. I had a marlin 1894c that I sheared the rear band screw. The load was 358156 over 15 grains 2400. A full pressure load of old days, that is above published data today. The rear band wasn’t as tight as it is on my Winchester 94 which is pretty snug. A rifle foreend will be less susceptible than a carbine band.

[Mint]

One thing to consider on that note, shooting a levergun from a bench rest, if not holding the forestock, you risk shearing the band or forearm screws. I had a marlin 1894c that I sheared the rear band screw. The load was 358156 over 15 grains 2400. A full pressure load of old days, that is above published data today. The rear band wasn’t as tight as it is on my Winchester 94 which is pretty snug. A rifle foreend will be less susceptible than a carbine band.

Hmm I don't follow this. If I have the forestock resting on sandbags it has the danger of shearing screws??

[JoeJames]

Hmm I don't follow this. If I have the forestock resting on sandbags it has the danger of shearing screws??

I would not think that would be an appreciable problem with sandbags.

[Moleman-]

No problems shooting a box of 100 top end 44 mag loads in my 20" marlin. Lighter plinking loads have noticable less recoil and 200rnds is easy to go through plinking at the steel plates.

[Mint]

ok I have a few more miscellaneous questions I wrote down. Instead of making a new thread I feel like I can just keep my learning self-contained here, as this thread already has some good momentum.

Totally no worries if no one wants to answer these [smilie=2:

1. What variable(s) ultimately makes a powder and bullet combination more accurate than another. For example in the Lyman book there is always a bolded powder. Obviously there are fast/slow burning powders which may burn clean or dirty depending on the barrel length and bullet weight. Ultimately though in my mind, the moment the bullet leaves out the muzzle, at that point it's simply rotating + traveling at X fps, where the powder has no more affect on the bullet. The only thing I can think of is some burning powders gas expansion variance may cause some "shakiness" of the bullet causing it to wobble, or perhaps improperly timed gas right when it leaves the muzzle can cause it to go off course. But in this case, why wouldn't that be more of a function of the powder itself that applies globally (ie, just a shiesty powder in general).

2. Is it true I can look at 44 special load data (powder brand, starting powder weight, bullet weight/type), and without changing ANYTHING, place it into a 44 magnum case? I've read multiple people say this but I want to verify 100% it's kosher to do so before considering it. Beyond safety, will this still be very accurate or should I just not consider doing this if I also want accuracy.

3. If a formula calls for a magnum primer is it generally safe to switch to a non-magnum primer? I understand going the other direction is NOT safe (non-magnum -> magnum).

4. If a formula calls for a Winchester or Fed primer, is it generally safe to use a CCI one? All I have are CCI 500 and 300 (for both .357/.44 mag)

[Soundguy]

You should be fine loading a 44spl load in a mag case.

Safety wise, dropping from a mag to normal primer should be ok.

If you re work up a load, you can switch a non mag primer to mag. I often work up loads and switch to mag primers in hunting loads used in cold areas. Depending on your gun..sometimes when dealing with small PRI.ers a srp can be subbed in for spm.

[Bazoo]

Variables that make an accurate load aren’t as simple as powder and bullet. If it were, everyone would just load the skeeter load or other popular recipe that’s accurate. Some loads are popular because they are accurate over lots of people’s guns. But each gun will have its preferences. And a load the performed great in my gun may shoot for crap in your gun.

There are some flops in bullet design. And winners. Bullet design makes a lot of difference. Research if others had success with your bullet of choice. A full wadcutter may be great accuracy at less than 50 yards but at 65 it may open up to 6” because it’s tumbling or yawing badly.

Barrel harmonics plays a big part in accuracy, especially in a rifle. Some guns though like a particular velocity range. Some rare ones shoot good seems like no matter what.

Bullet weight and velocity in relation to rifling twist rate. For example, a 300 grain bullet won’t stabilize at 600fps sometimes but will at 1200, in 44 mag. Don’t forget bullet diameter too. If you’re groove diameter is .431 and you load .429 bullets, you likely won’t be accurate. But it’s possible the bullets will obturate and you’ll have great accuracy. It’s a try and see kinda thing. Research as to what others had success with helps shorten the experimentation phase of finding a good load or two for your caliber.

It’s safe to swap primer brands if you’re not already at the top end. Also safe to swap mag or regular. So if you are at a starting load, change it and work up.

It’s safe to take a max 44 special load out of the book and put it in magnum cases. Loading to magnum length. A max spl load that is 15k psi will be less than that in mag cases because of the extra air space. Maybe 13k would be a guess.

Will it be accurate? Dunno. If you use bullet x and unique powder at 6.0 grains it may be accurate or not. You work up til you get accuracy, maybe at 7.2 for example. Then accuracy falls off. But it may get accurate again at 10 grains or may not. I’ve seen loads be so close for accuracy that it was take your pick, I also have seen a grain or two of powder make 2-3 inches difference on paper, in a rifle. I’ve had plenty of pistol loads that the accuracy didn’t change appreciably with the powder charge change. So in that case, pick what you like recoil and velocity wise.

Factory ammo is made to x velocity and they sell it to ya whether or not your gun shoots it accurately. If your gun shoots factory into 2” at 50 yards and you are happy, you likely will be happy with about anything you can make up at the reloading bench. If though your gun shoots an inch at 50 yards and you ain’t satisfied, then you will have a long journey to get it better most likely. I’m easy to please so I’m satisfied with mostly what others call mediocre accuracy. My 30-30 shoots less than 2” at 75y with minimal effort to get there. I’m happy as a lark. I take it off the bench and shoot coke cans. Others aren’t happy unless a dime will cover their bullet holes and then only if it’s a 10 shot group.

Loading technique plays a part. If you scrape lead off the sides of the bullets when seating, then you won’t have accuracy. Or, if some cases are crimped and some not because of case length variation, you’ll have poor accuracy.

[Alan]

All time favorite load is 240gr cast & 9 gr unique.

Even Elmer Keith didn't believe in pounding his gunsnto death. His "heavy target" load was 250gr & 8.5 gr of Unique.

[racepres]

All time favorite load is 240gr cast & 9 gr unique.

Even Elmer Keith didn't believe in pounding his gunsnto death. His "heavy target" load was 250gr & 8.5 gr of Unique.
No Clue what Elmer did... But 8.6 gr Unique with 240-255 LSWC is about all I Want...

BTW Bazoo....well said above.... Well Said Indeed...

[Mint]

If it were, everyone would just load the skeeter load or other popular recipe that’s accurate. Some loads are popular because they are accurate over lots of people’s guns. But each gun will have its preferences.

Makes exceptional sense, TBH I would be surprised if it were any other way. Thanks for verifying 100% that's the case.


Bullet weight and velocity in relation to rifling twist rate. For example, a 300 grain bullet won’t stabilize at 600fps sometimes but will at 1200, in 44 mag. Don’t forget bullet diameter too.

Mmmm very interesting. Now that you mention it I do remember reading about this when looking to buy a B-92 in 44 magnum and everyone was complaining about the rifling in 44 specifically, and said to get 357 instead. In the case of the gun I bought (the photo earlier in this thread) its 24" barrel and the rifling is 26". Do you know off hand if that should be fine for both heavy and light gr 44 mag? Obviously I will test.


Factory ammo is made to x velocity and they sell it to ya whether or not your gun shoots it accurately. If your gun shoots factory into 2” at 50 yards and you are happy, you likely will be happy with about anything you can make up at the reloading bench

This was probably the biggest realization I had that made me think about reloading. I have only started shooting about 2 months ago. I've shot guns since I was a kid (on land in the boonies) but it was never in a controlled target-shooting setting. Then, I lived in California for very long where dealing with all that made me look elsewhere for hobbies. I then got into lever guns 2 months ago and bought a number of very specific ones that I like. My fondness for lever action far exceeds all other guns I've shot by an entire order of magnitude.

I go each weekend working on accuracy at 25, 50. Using factory ammo I suppose I always thought I must be somewhat of a not very good shot. I'm not a BAD shot (I can shoot my henry 22 @ 200 yard steel targets while standing, using iron sights, and hit maybe 3 out of 5 times). But also at 50 and 100, unless I'm using AR15 with ACOG I don't even bother scoring them because it's not consistent enough.

Then, I got a Winchester 1873 and tried shooting reloaded .38 special loads (reloaded by someone else) and that greatly changed my perspective. It was so insanely accurate that it felt like it changed my perspective entirely. I realized that, while I'm definitely no sharpshooter, I was actually a lot more accurate than I was giving myself credit for. I was now shooting pretty solid groups whereas before I could have entire misses off the paper. Now I realized perhaps these other guns are capable of similar, but need more tuned ammunition... so that's kind of my hope with starting.

I know you have typed quite a bit already so no pressure (thank you for all your replies)... but what might be a high level overview of the process of how I'm actually to find these sweet spots?

I can only shoot on weekends so that makes things a bit of a pain for experimenting. I bought 500x brass, about 5 different powders, and about 5 sample packs of bullets. My plan was to pick just 1 bullet, 1 powder and load 20 of them at starting charge. And then increase by a bit and load another 20... and repeat this process up until im 50% to the max charge weight.

There are however a lot of variables (bullet grains/brands, powder brand/charge). I would imagine if it were like other hobbies I have where refining is required, you try to make the largest changes first which produce the largest variance (perhaps changing bullet and keeping powder consistent), but I have no idea if that applies here, or what order to do them in.

That may be a poor method, but I haven't really found any information on a good logistical controlled process for experimentation.

Also, is 25 yards too close to do this? I bought a chronograph, and i do have an astigmatism so if I'm really going for accuracy I imagine I should look at accuracy at 25.. but if its too close to show variation I will go to 50.

[JoeJames]

Congratulations on figuring out that sometimes factory ammo my not be accurate. I figure that due to potential liability at least where pistol ammo is concerned the ammo companies go for the lowest common denominator - bullet diameter = smaller diameter = less pressure and fewer law suits. I have shot very little factory 44 Special ammo, but my own ammo with my home cast bullets is much more accurate - same for 38 Special at least for my home cast swc loads, and certainly for my 32S&W loads.

I test and work up all my loads at either 25 yards or lately at 15 yards due to my 71 year old eyes. That's for 308, 556, and all the pistol ammo I work up. BTW when working up a load I start at a fairly minimum recommended charge (per the manuals) and slowly go up. Example with 44 Special I started with 5 rounds or so loaded with @ 6.2 or so grains of Unique, then 5 rounds at 6.4, then 6.5 - all with a cast .430 240 grain SWC. I found with hard cast swc's - 6.5 grains gave the best group and for my softer cast .430 6.8 grains were best; at least for my Ruger BH. Both chronographed at 894 fps, which I think is the sweet spot for my Ruger.

[Bazoo]

I haven’t any idea on the twist rate and bullet weight for 44s. I can’t remember now. A lot of people poopoo a 44 gun if it won’t shoot 300 grain bullets. Stick to 270s and don’t fret it, if you like everything else about your gun and that’s your case.

The way I’d go about it in your case would be to do a combination of experimentation and plinking ammo. I’d certainly do a few bullets powder combos to try. But after the first attempt, if you have any success, that is, one of the tested combos is accurate enough to satisfy an itchy trigger finger, I’d load a few boxes of those to have for plinking. That way you can test a few loads each time, but still have a fun time shooting and not worrying about it.

There ain’t anything wrong with testing at 25 or 50 yards. But like I mentioned with the wadcutter, you can have accuracy at close range, that doesn’t hold at longer range. So you could have cloverleaf groups at 25 or 50 and 6” at 100. But with a known to others decent bullet and powder charge, I’d guess you would be likely to not have that issue. Testing is the start of making a good load, proving is when you try it from various ranges and conditions to verify it.

I use a 3 ring binder. Mark a sheet of paper for each bullet I use. I record each powder and charge weight I try, what range, and if it was good or bad or needs further testing. When I am having a bad hand or eye day, I hold off the testing and just plink. And I make note of to retest. I also record leading, or lack of it. Recoil level, smoke (not that smoke will cause me not to use an otherwise good load). How it hits on paper vs other loads, as in if it shoots high or low. Sight settings. I also record changes to loading technique such as different size expander. Sometimes I save targets and cut them to fit my binder. Or tack them on my wall like a kid, if I’m proud of the groups.

When I test loads, I usually use an index card with the load info, in a ziploc bag with my test ammo. I write details on the index card as I test. Then I transfer that into my binder when I get home. For me, home is from the back of my property to the front. So I do things somewhat different because I’m blessed with my own range.


Most reloading books recommend just loading starting charges for a while before testing loads. Part of that reason is because of safety from a new loader standpoint. But, they don’t mention this, but I will. Part of the reason that’s a good idea is because you will not have the best technique to start. Your reloading skill will improve after a while, and then, you’ll want to retest all the loads you did. In other words, It’s possible you will have a great load but not recognize it for bad loading technique in the beginning.

[Bazoo]

I haven’t loaded a lot of cast that I didn’t cast myself. But I have a friend that buys cast. I seen some pretty badly cast bullets in that bag. Rounded bands, and sized excessively. I’m surprised he has anything similar to accuracy with those bullets. That is likely one reason the reloads you had shot well, better quality control.

Another reason is, your gun could prefer cast over jacketed or those reloads hit a sweet spot for velocity or bullet weight, diameter, hardness, or shape. I’d start by trying to duplicate those if you have any details of the load or bullet.

[JoeJames]

Commercial cast bullets are usually cast pretty hard - harder than my cast which are clip on wheel weights sweetened with a little tin. They generally cast 'em pretty hard so they end up pretty much intact after shipping. I think my softer alloy is more accurate but that's my opinion.

Notebook - I swear by mine and even scan in my targets and reprint them on notebook paper - and it is subdivided in my calibers I regularly shoot.

306172

[Mint]

Very awesome guys, thank you. I don't have any questions, it all makes perfect sense. Can't wait to get started.

[Bazoo]

I’ll tell ya something funny. Before I got into reloading. Before reading the manual, I saw folks talking about grains of powder. I thought man, It must be a pain to count out 32 grains of powder, and splitting one for a 1/2 grain probably ain’t too bad but what about .6? I thought grains meant kernels and folks actually counted them out!

[Mint]

I’ll tell ya something funny. Before I got into reloading. Before reading the manual, I saw folks talking about grains of powder. I thought man, It must be a pain to count out 32 grains of powder, and splitting one for a 1/2 grain probably ain’t too bad but what about .6? I thought grains meant kernels and folks actually counted them out!

ha ha ha. When I started I "grains" of a round/bullet meant how much powder for some reason. Then I read online that this is a common misconception. I wonder where it originated, as I can't remember where I got that notion. It's like an instance of the mandala effect :veryconfu

[Mint]

.08 cent Federal large pistol primers for my 44 magnum brothers helping me in this thread

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/953155826?pid=155826

I suspect though everyone has a stockpile of like 100,000 .02 cent primers and I'm late to this party :violin:

[Bazoo]

I have a few .04 primers and a few I paid the new price for. The last 44 special I seen on the shelves was $1 a shot, so even at .10 a primer I’m saving a fortune.

[Mint]

I have a few .04 primers and a few I paid the new price for. The last 44 special I seen on the shelves was $1 a shot, so even at .10 a primer I’m saving a fortune.

Yes when I heard you can reload the brass 30+ times that blew my mind!

[Bazoo]

I’ve seen accounts where someone tried to reload and fire 38 special brass to failure. Numbers like 80 and up. Now, maybe it all won’t make it that far. But I think most will get to 30.

[Mint]

Ok one more easy question

I notice there are 3 ways to prime (I'm sure way more actually, but 3 immediate ways)....

1. The hand primer tool that comes with the rock chucker

2. The "arm" primer that comes with the rock chucker

3. The "ram" primer that you buy https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012930411?pid=416519

Any suggestions which way is most efficient or "best"

[Bazoo]

There is another way, a bench mounted priming tool. Personally I like ram priming. I get a feel for priming as I do it so I don’t want to include it in another operation, that is, press mounted. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do it perfectly that way. I used a hand primer a few years. But my hands hurt so gave that up.

If I switch to turret loading, like I think I may, I’ll be learning on press priming.

[Mint]

There is another way, a bench mounted priming tool. Personally I like ram priming. I get a feel for priming as I do it so I don’t want to include it in another operation, that is, press mounted. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do it perfectly that way. I used a hand primer a few years. But my hands hurt so gave that up.

If I switch to turret loading, like I think I may, I’ll be learning on press priming.

Interesting...so this? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012932670?pid=457599

Also I was thinking, I know my previous question about choosing different bullets than the manual suggests, regarding COAL, someone mentioned (I cant remember who) starting low at starting grains and working up. Is there a way I can do this using a caliper before I even get to the range? For example... if I look for the inner length dimensions inner cartridge base to bottom of bullet (that space which would create the volume) of a standard .44 mag, and then subtract the height of the bullet? I dont know if thats the wrong way to go about it but it seems it would be most accurate. The only problem is I dont see the "inner volume" dimension on the diagram as if the bullet were fully seated... it only shows the outer dimensions of the case and bullet. I'm just trying to think of a way where I'm not just literally guessing the overall length, or basing it on a number in a book of not even the same bullet. Surely there must be a way to manually compute it.

[Bazoo]

Yes that’s a bench mounted priming tool.

Start low and work up means increase the powder charge incrementally until you reach your accuracy or power goals. To get to a max pressure load, you need either a lot of experience, or to use exactly the components in the book or both. So if you want a full pressure 44 magnum, you can get there with careful work up, including chronograph work. If you start changing stuff how do you know that you are topping out at 36k psi and not 40k psi? Primer look is one indicator, recoil is another, so is velocity, and experience helps a lot here. Knowing the gun, the cartridge, and the pressure range you’re working in is essential to developing a load that is close to max. Having recoil close to factory ammo is the closest indicator in my opinion, but that isn’t really a pressure indicator but a velocity indicator.

I’d never try to go max loads with bullets I didn’t know. First step is finding others that have data for your bullet. Like if you use RCBS bullets they have data. And if you have a bullet that is identical in used case volume, and weight, but not nose shape, it’s a fairly safe bet it will be close in pressure. So finding a very similar bullet with data available is how I do it. That said, a few folks here have pressure testing gear. The info they provide is helpful with other bullets.

Loading technique, amount of crimp, brass hardness, alloy hardness and ductility, bearing length, seating depth, barrel throat, ambient temperature, primer, powder lot variation, different lubes on cast bullets, powder position in the case, chamber dimensions, and probably a few other things I can think of all have a direct relationship to how much pressure a given load makes.

The relationship of a change in loading or components to pressure isn’t linear. Meaning. That changing primers at 15k psi might make only 500 psi difference in pressure, but at 20k psi it might make 1k difference and at 36k it could be 4K.

A load that is safe at 60 degrees can be unsafe at 95.

Loading 15k psi loads in a 36k psi gun leaves you with a lot of wiggle room.

The way to compute it is through a pressure gun with years of experience working it. One thing to consider is powder personality. Some powders are edgy in their response to more or less pressure. Some will work safely through a much broader range. Unique is one of the latter, but it has the fault of harder metering and shooting dirtier than some.

[Mint]

Yes that’s a bench mounted priming tool.

Start low and work up means increase the powder charge incrementally until you reach your accuracy or power goals. To get to a max pressure load, you need either a lot of experience, or to use exactly the components the book or both. So if you want a full pressure 44 magnum, you can get there with careful work up, including chronograph work. If you start changing stuff how do you know that you are topping out at 36k psi and not 40k psi? Primer look is one indicator, recoil is another, so is velocity, and experience helps a lot here. Knowing the gun, the cartridge, and the pressure range you’re working in is essential to developing a load that is close to max. Having recoil close to factory ammo is the closest indicator in my opinion, but that isn’t really a pressure indicator but a velocity indicator.

I’d never try to go max loads with bullets I didn’t know. First step is finding others that have data for your bullet. Like if you use RCBS bullets they have data. And if you have a bullet that is identical in used case volume, and weight, but not nose shape, it’s a fairly safe bet it will be close in pressure. So finding a very similar bullet with data available is how I do it. That said, a few folks here have pressure testing gear. The info they provide is helpful with other bullets.

Loading technique, amount of crimp, brass hardness, alloy hardness and ductility, bearing length, seating depth, barrel throat, ambient temperature, primer, powder lot variation, different lines on cast bullets, powder position in the case, chamber dimensions, and probably a few other things I can think of all have a direct relationship to how much pressure a given load makes.

The relationship of a change in loading or components to pressure isn’t linear. Meaning. That changing primers at 15k psi might make only 500 psi difference in pressure, but at 20k psi it might make 1k difference and at 36k it could be 4K.

A load that is safe at 60 degrees can be unsafe at 95.

Loading 15k psi loads in a 36k psi gun leaves you with a lot of wiggle room.

The way to compute it is through a pressure gun with years of experience working it. One thing to consider is powder personality. Some powders are edgy in their response to more or less pressure. Some will work safely through a much broader range. Unique is one of the latter, but it has the fault of harder metering and shooting dirtier than some.

Sorry, I think I must have misspoke. I definitely wont be doing any full charges for the foreseeable future. My question doesnt even necessarily relate to powder I don't think.

In the book there is a different COAL listed for every single type of bullet. I asked why its not just always the same for all bullets, and someone commented that it was because the internal volume changes based on the "height" of the bullet, so in other words, the internal volume that the powder sits in will change.

This makes sense, but also simultaneously doesnt make sense because a single bullet COAL will also list 10 different powders, so that would lead me to believe its based on the bullet, and not based on a powder.

My question was, if I'm not using the exact bullets in the book, how do I determine the COAL for my specific bullet, at the time of me adjusting the seating die and using calipers.

For example lets say the Lyman book calls for a 225gr cast SWC, but those dont feed through a levergun so I use a 220gr RNFP. I dont really want to just use the same COAL as the 225 SWC as theyre not the same bullet.

On one hand, I understand starting at start charge and working up, that I will absolutely do always, but my more specific question is what do I actually length do I seat the bullet to?

[JoeJames]

Maybe off the thread a bit, but I have always used the Lee Auto Prime tool rather than the RCBS tool in the rockchucker. Lee specifically states that Federal Primers should not be used in the Auto Prime tool. Apparently too sensitive. Only primers I have gotten lately were the Federal Large Pistol Primers, but I will be cautious in using them. Maybe 10 primers a time.

[Mint]

Maybe off the thread a bit, but I have always used the Lee Auto Prime tool rather than the RCBS tool in the rockchucker. Lee specifically states that Federal Primers should not be used in the Auto Prime tool. Apparently too sensitive. Only primers I have gotten lately were the Federal Large Pistol Primers, but I will be cautious in using them. Maybe 10 primers a time.

eek... definitely good to know. I'll need to remember that

[Bazoo]

You seat to the crimp groove. The number is arbitrary to the actual loading sequence. In a rifle using spitzer bullets, the number can mean how close you are to the rifling and is a factor in accuracy.

Here’s a pic you might like.

https://i.postimg.cc/vHhcSZ1t/91DE29AE-2C82-49BE-B47F-0D51590F1A5C.jpg (https://postimg.cc/BX8SjsBj)

These bullets left to right are
RCBS 44-250-K
RCBS 44-240-swc
Lee c432-265-RF ranchdog
Lee 429-20-RF

The nose profile makes no difference as to anything except oal.

See that lee ranchdog bullet? If I was to seat it to the same internal volume as the 44-250-k, the pressure would be close but not identical. Bearing surface of the bullet on the rifling lands, gas check, or not, as well as lube used all plays a part.

https://i.postimg.cc/SsJmVcXw/1-C179-D33-747-F-4-EEB-8814-D4-F33-D743-B8-B.jpg (https://postimg.cc/jwYVSw4X)

That bullet is designed to run through a lever gun. That’s why it has more bullet inside the case. The 44-250-k is a Keith clone and has more nose. His bullets often exceeded the oal that is considered standard. But that doesn’t mean they don’t work in a revolver where the length of the cylinder is the deciding factor. So why is there this difference? Because the people that design bullets all have their idea of ideal shape and size.

[Mint]

UGHHHHH!!!! Ok, that is so stupid obvious in retrospect it's painful. Someone already said that too... I think it was you (load to 3/4 canneleur). I promise all the information is in there, it's percolating like award winning chili... it takes a moment sometimes for the pieces to assemble.

So that's what you mean about 3/4 right? So the case mouth brass is 75% covering the cannelure gap

[Bazoo]

Yes, that’s what 75% means.

[Bazoo]

I have those moments. Sometimes I just need to see a pic or have it explained a different way for me to wrap my head around something.

[Mint]

I have those moments. Sometimes I just need to see a pic or have it explained a different way for me to wrap my head around something.

Ha, true. Well thanks. It can happen to me if I learn beyond 6 or so hours. I can't really do any of this stuff on front of me with my hands until some more parts arrive on Monday, but I'll be starting soon.

I feel quite confident and prepared, I don't really have any doubts at all, and I have a very solid idea of what I need to do.

I kind of wish I had looked at a turret press more though. Everyone kept saying single stage! But a turret press still certainly looks cool, like it doesnt lose the benefit of a single stage press. Maybe it does though, I definitely don't know

[racepres]

Interesting Conversation on Priming... I use whatever is Handy... but, remember...I learned reloading with an Original, Lee Loader... primed with a Mallet as well as Sizing and all the other operations.. So... There is yet another Priming Method..
Truly, I sometimes think that everyone should Start with the original Lee Loader... you get a real education on what the operations are...
You also learn that Just because the "Rock Chucker" has a Cult following... it aint a Necessity!!!

[JoeJames]

Interesting Conversation on Priming... I use whatever is Handy... but, remember...I learned reloading with an Original, Lee Loader... primed with a Mallet as well as Sizing and all the other operations.. So... There is yet another Priming Method..
Truly, I sometimes think that everyone should Start with the original Lee Loader... you get a real education on what the operations are...
You also learn that Just because the "Rock Chucker" has a Cult following... it aint a Necessity!!!

May not be a necessity, but I was just thinking about what I'd written about working up a load .2 or .3 grains at a time; that's where a single stage does in my opinion come close to a necessity. I started with a Lee whack a mole in the 60's. Upon reflection I am fortunate it did not run me off from reloading.

[Krag 1901]

OP, the .44 mag is a perfect cartridge to start reloading with. Get a Lyman cast manual, available on line for free, though older edition. Still valid though. Lots of powders work well for Midrange loads. .44/40 loads work well in Mag brass. COL is what works feeding in your rifle. As long as you aren't pushing the firewall, not much can go wrong if you follow the Lyman recipes.

I've been using an RCBS Jr. press I bought in 1966 when I got out of the Army and started reloading. It has done me good service and is still loading after Lord knows how may rounds. Your Rockchucker will work for you grand Kid's grand Kids. Make sure to get a carbide sizing die, if it didn't come in your set of dies. They make life easier.

[unclemikeinct]

I wish this site had a like button. Many good suggestions here. Reduced cast bullet loads in the 44Mag. take many forms. The 240 gr. I cast myself can be shot slower & just as accurately. The Harder Commercial bought cast bullets need a bit more powder to obturate & shoot well. that said I use Unique powder 6.8 to about 7.5 grains under that 240 grain bullet. I do 500 lot batches at a time on my single stage 1976 RCBS Jr. press. I hope that helps you. mike in ct