Lead exposure amount from primers

[Mint]

I've tried googling this for some time but can't find anything.

Does anyone know roughly how much lead someone is exposed to after a given number of rounds, say 100 in one sitting, at an outdoor range. Ideally expressed as µg/dL.

Obviously it depends on body chemistry, the wind, and many many variables, but generally if you shot a lever action rifle 100 times outdoors in perfectly still air.

I follow a very strict, bordering on OCD shooting regimen (D-lead laundry detergent, wipes, shampoo, changing clothes before I get in car, etc), and my lead levels still rise.

I'm trying to ascertain if this rise is roughly the same as the amount of lead exposure I would get from primers while shooting X number of rounds, OR, if it's not the same, then that would help me see if the problem is actually with my cleaning/handling procedure somewhere.

[shell70634]

I'm curious how you are testing your lead level. I was tested in 2019 and had zero after 50 years of reloading and shooting.

[36g]

Are you sure that any lead level increase is due to shooting and not other environmental factors such as lead paint, natural lead levels at the shooting site, etc.?

[Mint]

I'm curious how you are testing your lead level. I was tested in 2019 and had zero after 50 years of reloading and shooting.

It was a blood test I got at a blood lab, and they sent it out for processing

[Mint]

Are you sure that any lead level increase is due to shooting and not other environmental factors such as lead paint, natural lead levels at the shooting site, etc.?

It's possible, but it's hard to tell that without knowing roughly the amount of lead increase I can expect from JUST shooting (isolating it to primers). That way, essentially anything over that is probably my fault, or the fault of the environment.

If it's related to shooting I will either 1) shoot less 2) wear a mask and look like a fool 3) try to find lead-free primers from fiocchi

If it's more than what's related to shooting then I would essentially up my game which is already at 90%. There are more things I could do to get that last 10% (such as washing my hands EVERY time touching a gun, even if its just by the stock to carry it 10 feet). I haven't done those things as I suspected they wouldn't matter that much.

[JimB..]

I don’t have a clear answer, but my guess is that it’d be too low to measure.

I take none of the precautions you take, other that to wash my hands after shooting, and I most often shoot 1,000 rounds indoors, and my lead level is zero, or nearly so.

I’d look for another source.

Edit: you could stop shooting for a couple months and see what happens

[Mint]

I don’t have a clear answer, but my guess is that it’d be too low to measure.

I take none of the precautions you take, other that to wash my hands after shooting, and I most often shoot 1,000 rounds indoors, and my lead level is zero, or nearly so.

I’d look for another source.

Edit: you could stop shooting for a couple months and see what happens

1000 over what time period?

Also how did you get yours tested, the same kind of blood test?

[super6]

Lead styfanate is some nasty stuff, Wear a mask if you plan on pulling a pot load of rounds on the range. Otherwise, A windy day may help. And yes it may look foolish but its your health that is at stake.

[36g]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. If you are running hundreds of cast Boolits downrange at a setting or doing a lot of muzzleloading with soft lead balls then wash your hands well afterward. Don't dine on lead paint chips... I've worked in chemical labs over the course of 50+ years working with lots of nasty (and some now banned) chemicals/metals and just some common sense precautions and cleanup go a long ways. I wouldn't obsess over the incidental lead exposure. There are far more environmental and other naturally occurring toxins that you are exposed to every day. If you really knew what you are eating (as allowed in foods) you'd probably swear off eating...

[Mint]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about it. If you are running hundreds of cast Boolits downrange at a setting or doing a lot of muzzleloading with soft lead balls then wash your hands well afterward. Don't dine on lead paint chips... I've worked in chemical labs over the course of 50+ years working with lots of nasty (and some now banned) chemicals/metals and just some common sense precautions and cleanup go a long ways. I wouldn't obsess over the incidental lead exposure. There are far more environmental and other naturally occurring toxins that you are exposed to every day. If you really knew what you are eating (as allowed in foods) you'd probably swear off eating...

I appreciate that perspective as someone working in a chemical lab. With that said, I do worry about it because the "base level" of 10 is very clearly and obviously outdated. Safe lead levels used to be 65 μg/dL in the 50s, and now its 10 set in 1991. I believe it's been shown this number should be lowered to 2.

At the exact same time I started shooting more I started getting very relstless at night, can't sleep, less appetite, headaches when Ive never had headaches my entire life. Quite literally every symptom of mild lead exposure I got when I started shooting more a few months ago.

Could it be something else? Absolutely, but the timing is too perfect, so I have to at least consider it's a very real possibility.

Not to mention, I need to be exceptionally sharp during the day (I am CTO of several of my own companies and deal with fairly sophisticated algorithms and programming. Ive programmed for ~12-15 hours a day for the last 15+ years, so I'm hyper aware of the capabilities/limits of my mind, and when my cognition is effected, and it is absolutely affected). Again... maybe a coincidence, but the timing is too good. Levels > 5 have been shown to impair cognition.

If I just were retired and shot boolits in my back yard I wouldn't care, but in my current environment I can't afford any of that, so I'm leaning heavily on the side of safety.

[36g]

Good observations. Just as a note - in the analytical world of medicine and others as it relates to acceptable levels of toxins or contaminants, there are any variety of specifications and regulations that call for "None Detected" or No Detectable Level is Acceptable. That's all well and fine except for the fact that when the regulations/specifications were first published the detection capability wasn't what it is today. Where in the past a detection level in the parts per thousand or parts per million was all that could be done now the detection level may be in the parts per trillion or less. The regulations haven't changed nor have the original studies been redone to provide guidance as to any new acceptable level. Just something to consider.

[Geezer in NH]

Maby you should give up shooting?
All the stuff you are doing is OCD to me. Quit shooting relieve your mind but do not tell your wife that you have. Your lead goes up again think about how?????

[Froogal]

I go through 100 rounds once every month for about 7 months or so, and my wife does the same. The other 5 months are spent in the basement reloading so we can do it all again. No problems ever with lead exposure.

[Mint]

Good observations. Just as a note - in the analytical world of medicine and others as it relates to acceptable levels of toxins or contaminants, there are any variety of specifications and regulations that call for "None Detected" or No Detectable Level is Acceptable. That's all well and fine except for the fact that when the regulations/specifications were first published the detection capability wasn't what it is today. Where in the past a detection level in the parts per thousand or parts per million was all that could be done now the detection level may be in the parts per trillion or less. The regulations haven't changed nor have the original studies been redone to provide guidance as to any new acceptable level. Just something to consider.

That makes sense, thanks for that clarification.

[Mint]

Maby you should give up shooting?
All the stuff you are doing is OCD to me. Quit shooting relieve your mind but do not tell your wife that you have. Your lead goes up again think about how?????

I'm not going to give up shooting, lol. My mind is also at ease. It's just something I'm working to solve thats all :drinks:

[Handloader109]

Are you reloading? Picking up brass? Use a pair of nitrile gloves, use ince and toss. Environment can be otherwise. Local to us is a school that borders on an old military complex. Mercury in water is way high according to the school. Government already cleaned up, but maybe not good enough. Just sayin

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[john.k]

Do primers have any lead in them? Did once ,100 years ago?.........anyhoo,local range was military rifle shooting for a lot of years,there must be tons of mercury from military 303 primers in the dirt there.......wont stop the land grabbers from putting houses there if they get a chance.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I've tried googling this for some time but can't find anything.

Does anyone know roughly how much lead someone is exposed to after a given number of rounds, say 100 in one sitting, at an outdoor range. Ideally expressed as µg/dL.

Obviously it depends on body chemistry, the wind, and many many variables, but generally if you shot a lever action rifle 100 times outdoors in perfectly still air.

I follow a very strict, bordering on OCD shooting regimen (D-lead laundry detergent, wipes, shampoo, changing clothes before I get in car, etc), and my lead levels still rise.

I'm trying to ascertain if this rise is roughly the same as the amount of lead exposure I would get from primers while shooting X number of rounds, OR, if it's not the same, then that would help me see if the problem is actually with my cleaning/handling procedure somewhere.
First, the current CDC's BLL (in a Adult), where a clinician should monitor a patient and start taking steps to identify and reduce the patient's exposure, is 5 µg/dL.

I can't imagine ordinary outdoor rifle range shooting would raise BLL, specifically from the lead styphnate from spent primers. If that was even possible, there'd be millions of us rednecks with BLL above 5 µg/dL.

If you were actually OCD, you'd be telling us in excruciating details, step by step, how you are handling a cartridge from firing it, to cleaning it, to loading it again. Because, if your BLL is elevated from a primer's lead styphnate, it's likely from an activity other than the shooting itself.

Some time ago (10-15 years ago), I had a test with a result of 8. After some research, I determined it was likely caused from tumbling spent cases with spent primers intact, in a dry tumbler with dry polishing media (that activity does generate a fair amount of dust, some of which is likely lead styphnate dust.)

Prior to that test, I was not even aware that spent primers contained lead styphnate. Dry tumbling is probably the highest possibility for a reloader (even a boolit caster), to raise BLL...although if a boolit caster/reloader handles lead projectiles (that have age oxidation) with bare fingers during reloading or such, that is another way to raise BLL, that's on the TOP of the list.

[crowbuster]

I Had more issues with the death dust from the media in the tumbler than I ever had with shooting. Went to steel pins and water. No more problems.

[JimB..]

1000 over what time period?

Also how did you get yours tested, the same kind of blood test?

Over a couple hours, depends on the day.
BTW, I also reload, so lots of dealing with dirty brass and spent primers.
Mostly I don’t eat or drink at the range or when processing brass, and I don’t lick stuff.
Yes, physician ordered blood tests, I’m looking for the actual results.

[Mint]

Over a couple hours, depends on the day.
BTW, I also reload, so lots of dealing with dirty brass and spent primers.
Mostly I don’t eat or drink at the range or when processing brass, and I don’t lick stuff.
Yes, physician ordered blood tests, I’m looking for the actual results.

Haha, wow, that's nice. YEET! Please let me know the exact ug when you find it!

[MrWolf]

Have you ruled out some simple things like testing your water? Any new changes made in routines, dietary changes, etc.? You don't seem to be the type that is not being meticulous in their actions and procedures.

[45_Colt]

Those that use dry tumbling media, add mineral spirits to it. Enough to dampen it to the point that there is no dust. Not only eliminates the dust but the cases come out cleaner.

If shooting indoors make sure that the exhaust is at the target end of the range. There was one range I shot in where the exhaust was from behind the shooters. Yea, many members of that range had elevated blood lead levels.

Note that it is easy to get lead contamination from elsewhere. I had elevated levels from the building I was working in. At one time the factory floor was wall-to-wall Linotype machines. Contaminated the whole building, office areas and all.

45_Colt

[Mint]

Have you ruled out some simple things like testing your water? Any new changes made in routines, dietary changes, etc.? You don't seem to be the type that is not being meticulous in their actions and procedures.

Most all of that is eliminated by the fact that I took a baseline reading 2 months ago, and it was (literally) 0.0. The only thing I started doing since then was started shooting.

The only thing I can think of that it might be is...

1) The lead exposure is from primers, although this thread seems to hint its not enough

2) If I'm handling a gun by the stock I generally dont wash my hands. Either to move it or shoulder it once. If I ever touch the receiver or muzzle I will d-lead my hands. I do this quite often though, so perhaps simply the residue from shooting getting on the stock is enough? Either way, I'm going to stop doing that. I'll literally wash my hands every time now. I never did that because it seems a lot of people who follow a similar regimen as mine stay at zero, so I figure this is good enough.

Aside from that, I don't see how it's my clothes, my hair. it's not my shoes. I dunno really kind of weird.

[MT Gianni]

In the early 00's the epa purposed a clean up standard for reclaiming mine sites to 1 part per billion lead. The trouble is that the US averages 1 part per million across the continent. We can try to minimize lead levels in the blood but it is a natural element and is not going away. For all the supposed studies that track damage none seem to compare it to developing nations with no mitigation of lead. Our life expectancy is not longer than several of those nations.

I had one test that put my blood levels at 1.4. I went to washing my hands after handling spent primers and using ppe gloves when separating brass from media. The next year I tested under 1.

Several gunsmiths have reported lead in the blood being higher than normal with the expectation that it is coming from fired primers.

[36g]

Are you reacting to a single test result or have you had a confirmatory test? Analytical tests can show false positives or erroneous results. I've done enough analytical testing to have seen results that are just plain odd only to do a reassay and the results are in the expected range.

[sparky45]

The solution to your question concerning "shooting/reloading, ect" is painfully obvious. STOP shooting, reloading, ect for at least two months and get retested. But first, get re-tested to have a better baseline.

[ascast]

I think you are obsessing over nothing, your test results are suspect. I have been reloading, casting bullets and yes, on occasionally licking hunks of lead or paint to prove how much hog wash is out there. I had my lead levels tested about 5 years ago. Absolutely nothing out if the ordinary for any random person. This is a test specific in NYS for peeps at or in high risk situations, like guys who cast a lot of bullets.
As an adult it takes oodles of exposure to really show anything. So, don't eat paint or other places where lead oxide might be used. Lead is most harmful to the developing nervous system, hope all this safety stuff applies 10 fold around kids, puppies, baby condors, etc

[kevin c]

So, zero to start out; what is it now?

All the lab tests I ever learned about or used have to be interpreted, taking many things into account. One is how repeatable a result might be. If you take one blood sample, divide it into ten portions and test each on the same machine, the numbers you get are going to vary, even though you expect no change. That’s machine or operator “error”, and while better training or better machines can reduce it, it’s mostly unavoidable.

Another is that a person’s test numbers can vary depending on time of day, hydration status, activity, sex, age, diet, weight, and literally thousands of other factors, and the change in value may not mean much.

Another is that for things like lead that don’t have any known physiologic function in the body, figuring out whether it’s toxic and, if so, how much it takes, and under what conditions means observational studies of a lot of people over a long time. What changes get looked at, how they’re determined, and how they’re correlated with lead levels is not always straight forward.

All that to say you might be worrying a lot more than you need to. By way of example, my levels in the mid teens are considered higher than normal, (I even got a letter from the health department saying I had lead exposure), but the fact that the most recent value was a couple points higher might be nothing more than variation in the assay technique or the fact that I didn’t drink much water before the last blood draw. And if I’m a bit more forgetful these days compared to when I started shooting, it’s likely because my brain is thirty years older, not that I’m having lead poisoning (the word “poisoning”, btw, really is quite loaded, isn’t it?).

As pointed out in other posts, the effects of lead, especially the long term neurological effects, are most concerning in children. Many adults have levels in the twenties and have no discernible effects.

If your levels are consistently elevated over time, and especially if there is a persistent rising trend in the values (and two tests with a couple or three point rise is not a trend), then mitigation might be in order.

[414gates]

The greatest risk of lead exposure, IMO, is in the dust coming off tumbling media.

Add a few cut up laundry wipes when you tumble, and the dust doesn't float around.

Lead exposure from actual shooting is, IMO again, a myth.

[farmbif]

are you shooting in an indoor range. ive been to some that the air in the range is just downright nasty, almost felt as if my brain cells were being destroyed right on the spot.
if your shooting outside its probably much healthier. ive been casting, lead scrounging, shooting and reloading for decades and have never had a lead test. I have seen peoples memory deteriorate more from drinking diet soda pop with aspartame much more than any shooters, casters or reloads. just my experience I'm no expert.

[beemer]

I was tested several years ago and got a good report. My doctor at the time knew I shot and casted and asked what precautions I used. I said I washed my hands after handling lead and reloading and used a vent while casting. Did I mention washing my hands. My current doctor ask if I needed a prescription for a new 1911.

I have always been concerned with dust from dry tumbling. Always outside and stay out of the dust, seems it's the fine stuff that gets you. In fact I poured out the old media and washed everything yesterday. I used to get upset when venders at gun shows set up a open dry tumbler and covered everything around with brown dust.

45 Colt, thanks for the tip about using mineral spirits in a tumbler.

[BNE]

I appreciate that perspective as someone working in a chemical lab. With that said, I do worry about it because the "base level" of 10 is very clearly and obviously outdated. Safe lead levels used to be 65 μg/dL in the 50s, and now its 10 set in 1991. I believe it's been shown this number should be lowered to 2.

At the exact same time I started shooting more I started getting very relstless at night, can't sleep, less appetite, headaches when Ive never had headaches my entire life. Quite literally every symptom of mild lead exposure I got when I started shooting more a few months ago.

Could it be something else? Absolutely, but the timing is too perfect, so I have to at least consider it's a very real possibility.

Not to mention, I need to be exceptionally sharp during the day (I am CTO of several of my own companies and deal with fairly sophisticated algorithms and programming. Ive programmed for ~12-15 hours a day for the last 15+ years, so I'm hyper aware of the capabilities/limits of my mind, and when my cognition is effected, and it is absolutely affected). Again... maybe a coincidence, but the timing is too good. Levels > 5 have been shown to impair cognition.

If I just were retired and shot boolits in my back yard I wouldn't care, but in my current environment I can't afford any of that, so I'm leaning heavily on the side of safety.

These are good observations on your own health. Have you had a full physical recently? Lots of things can cause what you described. Look up "Causes of headaches" or "Sleeplessness".... The lists are huge. I could not see the report - What was your level?

[deces]

In Richard Lee's Modern Reloading 2nd edition, he writes about loosing an uncle to lead poisoning. I believe it was also a friend of his, who had exposure too. The person wiped samples of his entire reloading area and sent it off to a lab. Everything came back as normal iirc, except the vibratory tumbler, it was rules as being the likely source for exposure.

Are you using a tumbler?

[DocSavage]

If OP has an older house with copper plumbing he might have to worry about lead solder connecting the pipes.
My house was built in 1846 so lead solder,lead paint and who knows what else.

[john.k]

Lead paint is a much bigger risk than primers ........incidentally,I moved a shipping container from my old yard to my home backyard recently.....and inside were two 5 gallon drums of red lead and a 1 gallon of white lead............some years ago ,on a jobsite ,the contractors were dumping 5x3 channel bridge railings in the landfill.........so ,in my own time,I salvaged many tons of the nice 10' lengths of channel with welded ends ....I sold one load of it ,the buyer was back complaining that the lead paint was so thick the steel couldnt be welded without choking fumes .........however ,other buyers were happy to get such thoroughly well painted steel for retaining walls etc.

[JimB..]

Lead - none detected
Arsenic - 7 ug/l
Mercury - 5 ug/l

[4719dave]

So what is your number from your blood test ??