Does heavy subsonic hollow points make sense?

[Stopsign32v]

Was looking at the NOE 358-155-TC for some heavy subsonic 9mm loads coated with Hi-Tek. But I was wondering, at those low of velocities would it even have any expansion?

[poppy42]

The simple fact is hollowpoint expansion is velocity based! Drop the velocity below the expansion threshold they don’t expand! I did A little test not very scientific because I don’t have a chronograph but take it for what it’s worth. I had a box of Hornaday 158 grain XTP bullets. The box clearly states that they will expand and velocities over 700 ft./s. In other words at standard velocities. I loaded some rounds up with three different powders I use the data from both Hornaday and from Lyman to determine what the feet per second was supposed to be. (like I said I can’t verify velocity I don’t have a chronograph) fire those rounds into wet newspaper at a distance of about 6 yards. I dug those bullets out of the wet newspaper and outside of the rifling marks the bullets look like they had never been loaded! Now in reference to your question about 9 mm subsonic is basically below 1000 ft./s the way I think of it so maybe if you load them just to subsonic levels you might get expansion I don’t know. Based on my experience I wouldn’t count on much. Hope this helps

[megasupermagnum]

That really depends. A pure lead HP will certainly expand below 1000 fps.

[Iwsbull]

Depending on alloy and hp design and wall thickness. You can look up Loads of Bacon and he has some really good vids of his testing.
I know at +P 44 special I get really good expansion in the borderline supersonic level from 50 yards to 200. Bhn about 8-9.

[BLAHUT]

Was looking at the NOE 358-155-TC for some heavy subsonic 9mm loads coated with Hi-Tek. But I was wondering, at those low of velocities would it even have any expansion?

Yes: If made in pure lead.

[Mr Peabody]

Well .22 rimfire short hollow points expand, they're around 700fps to start out with

[405grain]

You could cast the bullets with a 40 to 1 lead/tin alloy (so you get good mold fill out), then powder coat them. Load at around 1000 fps and it should be both sub-sonic and have some expansion.

[maglvr]

" Does heavy subsonic hollow points make sense?"
I'd guess about as much sense as non-alcohol vodka, but YMMV. :-)

[stubshaft]

^^^^^^^^^^What he said^^^^^^^^^!

[44MAG#1]

What does VIRGEL say. It is the latest thing yet on stopping power questions.

[Hannibal]

I'm not sure what the point would be. Knock the velocity down on a 9mm and your into 38 Special ballistics pretty quick.

[44MAG#1]

What is wrong with the 38 Special?

[Hannibal]

What is wrong with the 38 Special?

In my opinion nothing at all given what it is. I'd just not choose to detune a 9mm.

[charlie b]

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP

Look at the 9mm results. Several heavier HP bullets in there. Some are also borderline on penetration depth.

[megasupermagnum]

In my opinion nothing at all given what it is. I'd just not choose to detune a 9mm.

I wouldn't call it detuned. A 9mm luger wont get supersonic with a 147 grain. Even loading to +p wont do it. 1150 fps is hot even for a 125 gr bullet in 9mm. A 147 gr bullet at 1000 fps is a mean round for 9mm. I don't think a 38 special will touch that unless you are talking about a longer barreled revolver.

[gwpercle]

Cast them Soft ...
A 148 gr. swaged lead HBWC , loaded with the hollow base as a hollow point in 38 special
over 3.5 grs of Bullseye for 801 fps ... at this velocity , this soft swaged lead bullet will expand (flatten) to .715" diameter ... about/almost 3/4" ... penetration was 5 1/4 " into packed Newsprint ... which to me was impressive .

I believe if the metal is soft enough , the hollow point big enough and the velocity is around 750 to 800 FPS ... you should get expansion

This test was done by Terry Wieland in Handloader Magazine - August 2013 - #285 but involved a 38 special revolver and loads ... which made life easier .

My thought is if the boolit metal is soft enough and the cavity/hollow point large enough and the velocity in the 750 to 800 fps ... you should get some expansion .
It might be tough to get this to Feed in a 9mm ... but hey ...
Give it a Shot ! :drinks:
Gary

[Stopsign32v]

What is wrong with the 38 Special?

I tried loading them in my KP9 magazines but they won't fit.

[44MAG#1]

I tried loading them in my KP9 magazines but they won't fit.

That is what is so good about this site is the comic relief.
That is a good one.

[Stopsign32v]

That is what is so good about this site is the comic relief.
That is a good one.

I have a metric truck load of 38 Special brass. When it comes to just flat out plinking that round cannot be beat!

[Hanzy4200]

I think the real question, is does it matter? If SD is the idea, I would suggest some decent J words. I think you could get them to expand, but you would need a pretty soft alloy.

[megasupermagnum]

Being as he is running a suppressor, I'm guessing SD is not the purpose. I haven't seen it mentioned if this is for a pistol or rifle/carbine. At 1000 fps the option for alloys is decent. 20:1 will work. Below 800 fps it gets slim quick, just use pure lead. This is assuming hollow points. A pure lead solid at 1000 fps will probably expand. I don't think anything else will though, at least not significantly.

[Stopsign32v]

This is the round in question, and it will be used in a 10.5" carbine and some pistols.306100306101306102

[Larry Gibson]

Given a 1000 fps velocity those HPs will expand if cast of the soft pure lead, 40-1 or 30-1 alloy. The bullets more than likely will not expand if cast of any alloy with antimony in it the bullets. Those will harden if baked and WQ'd during the PCing process whereas a binary lead/tin alloy will not.

[Stopsign32v]

Given a 1000 fps velocity those HPs will expand if cast of the soft pure lead, 40-1 or 30-1 alloy. The bullets more than likely will not expand if cast of any alloy with antimony in it the bullets. Those will harden if baked and WQ'd during the PCing process whereas a binary lead/tin alloy will not.

Thanks for the info on this Larry. I might try and make some and do some testing to post up. I'll have to look into the best way of doing this. Can't swing gel and I know water jugs aren't a good media either.

[charlie b]

Wet newspaper or phone books. VERY wet. About as close to gel as us cheap people can get :)

[Barry54]

I wouldn't call it detuned. A 9mm luger wont get supersonic with a 147 grain. Even loading to +p wont do it. 1150 fps is hot even for a 125 gr bullet in 9mm. A 147 gr bullet at 1000 fps is a mean round for 9mm. I don't think a 38 special will touch that unless you are talking about a longer barreled revolver.

Actually Vihtavuori 3N38 will push a 147 grain (XTP) faster than 1200 FPS in 9mm the data was on the app, but was removed a while back. I got a screenshot and later purchased their hardback load manual to have it in print. I emailed them specifically about that load, and asked if it was +P and got a lawyerly answer that it’s not listed as plus p in the data. I’ll be happy to share the information if anyone wants it.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

.38spl 876fps (measured) 2" barrel pure lead
https://i.imgur.com/eu6juGz.jpg

.45 auto 4" barrel pure lead, not measured but estimated around the same speed. Standard pressure.
https://i.imgur.com/HWvPiGc.jpg

[megasupermagnum]

Actually Vihtavuori 3N38 will push a 147 grain (XTP) faster than 1200 FPS in 9mm the data was on the app, but was removed a while back. I got a screenshot and later purchased their hardback load manual to have it in print. I emailed them specifically about that load, and asked if it was +P and got a lawyerly answer that it’s not listed as plus p in the data. I’ll be happy to share the information if anyone wants it.

Not from a pistol. I tried it in Quickloads. 9mm +P, 1.140" OAL, Hornady 147gr XTP, 6.5 gr 3N38 (119% case fill). It predicts 1038 fps from a 4" barrel. That's even predicted standard pressure, 34k psi. In a carbine it looks like it will be supersonic, but I made that statement before I realized that was what we were talking about.

Bluedot is actually about the best powder for speed in 9mm, but still falls short of supersonic with a 147gr.

[Barry54]

Not from a pistol. I tried it in Quickloads. 9mm +P, 1.140" OAL, Hornady 147gr XTP, 6.5 gr 3N38 (119% case fill). It predicts 1038 fps from a 4" barrel. That's even predicted standard pressure, 34k psi. In a carbine it looks like it will be supersonic, but I made that statement before I realized that was what we were talking about.

Bluedot is actually about the best powder for speed in 9mm, but still falls short of supersonic with a 147gr.

The display was randomly dropping bars on my chrony when I was testing and don’t recall handgun velocity. I’ll try to run the tests again one of these years. Got a Caldwell unit since Shooting Chrony went under. I have XTP 1210 saved in my bullet drop + app so that’s probably the average velocity from my carbine. I was using a powder charge right in the middle of the data.