Load Improvement Tips?

[RPRNY]

9.5x47R 250 grs slicks paper patched to .377. Weighing charges individually and exactly.

52 grs 1.5 fg Olde Eynsford: MV 1283 SD 13

This is a little slow for 200 yards accuracy. Definitely signs of wobble and groups, such as they are, are @ 7”

To get any more powder in would require very heavy compression, so not the route forward.

52 grs 3fffg Olde Eynsford: MV 1423 SD 30

Bullets are definitely stabilized, no sign of wobble. Groups are better but there is vertical stringing and that Standard Deviation of 30 seems unduly high.

I will try 50 grs 3 fffg next but I would welcome advice and counsel on getting the SD down.

[Don McDowell]

Fouling control is vitally important to good groups with patched.
Signs of bullet wobble and vertical stringing first place to look is getting the bullet length to barrel twist.

[RPRNY]

Fouling control is vitally important to good groups with patched.
Signs of bullet wobble and vertical stringing first place to look is getting the bullet length to barrel twist.

Wiping every two shots, 1:14 progressive twist - plenty to stabilize 250 grs. pure lead.

[Don McDowell]

Wipe every shot, and go with a harder alloy, 1-20 would likely help.
Looks like the original loads used a 210ish grain bullet.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Fouling control must be done every shot, otherwise just peeing up a rope.

Kenny W.

[RPRNY]

Wiping every shot with a bolt action is less than ideal.

[indian joe]

Wiping every shot with a bolt action is less than ideal.

Grease groove boolits and a blow tube

Yeah I'm the heathen here - but something is seriously amiss with SD numbers
I dont do SD (another heathen move) I do ES, ten shot strings with no swab between shots and in a good barrel with careful loading can get that ES around 10 FPS - several strings in single digit territory.

If youre shooting at 100yards or less that vertical stringing is likely gun or sight picture oriented - I get that with open / barrel sights - dont hold so bad but dang it just cant see em well enough to get proper vertical alignment. or - mechanical interference (barrel heating - forend pressure variations)

[RPRNY]

Numbers, groups above 200 yards. Tang aperture sight, globe front sight.

[Kosh75287]

Forgive me if this suggestion is frowned upon or is considered unduly hazardous, but could the fouling be addressed by the use of a "duplex" load? If I understand the term correctly, this involves the use of 0.5 - 2.5 gr. of slow(ish) burning smokeless pistol propellant as part of the total powder charge. I understand the smokeless charge to be introduced first, so that it is closest to the primer flash hole, after which a slightly reduced black powder charge is measured into the case.
On firing, the more brisant smokeless powder acts as an "initiator" for the slower-to-ignite black powder, and elevates temperatures and pressures JUST enough to enable more complete burning. I've HEARD of this, and never tried it. But it seemed like something worth considering, if the fouling is wrecking accuracy to the extent believed.

[indian joe]

Numbers, groups above 200 yards. Tang aperture sight, globe front sight.

that should take care of the sight alignment question

following comments are only (maybe?) relevant to the vertical stringing issue

The SD number needs fixing but I am not qualified as to whether thats the whole reason for vertical stringing at 200yards. Kenny and Don would know that for sure.

Mechanical interference = bedding? forend interference ? I shoot lever guns for accuracy and these are prime problem - black powder loads heat a barrel much more and quicker than smokeless - so distortion, poor bedding, interference (call it whatever you like) can cause headaches that just are not there with smokeless and vertical stringing (up or down from initial POI) seems to be top of the list.

[indian joe]

Forgive me if this suggestion is frowned upon or is considered unduly hazardous, but could the fouling be addressed by the use of a "duplex" load? If I understand the term correctly, this involves the use of 0.5 - 2.5 gr. of slow(ish) burning smokeless pistol propellant as part of the total powder charge. I understand the smokeless charge to be introduced first, so that it is closest to the primer flash hole, after which a slightly reduced black powder charge is measured into the case.
On firing, the more brisant smokeless powder acts as an "initiator" for the slower-to-ignite black powder, and elevates temperatures and pressures JUST enough to enable more complete burning. I've HEARD of this, and never tried it. But it seemed like something worth considering, if the fouling is wrecking accuracy to the extent believed.

I have a couple of rifles I shoot Duplex loads in - it works fine - gain about 100FPS - no signs of overpressure - nice low ES numbers - dont like the term pistol powder (in case some goose dont read the slowish burning part and decides to use red dot or bullseye) - 4227 and SR4759 are ideal burn rate - lets call em fast'ish rifle powders. I use about 7% or 8% of the main charge of 4227 - its almost exactly same density as my Black so its a neat grain for grain swap.
However this is not allowed in competition as far as I know so our OP may wish to sort the problem with straight blackpowder. Groups are not ideal but not awful either (7" at 200yards = quite decent hunting accuracy) proly makes the "problem" more difficult to identify.

[Don McDowell]

One thing to keep in mind also is that depending on the diameter of a paper patched bullet in this case 255 gr, it is likely a good bit longer than a 255 gr grease groove bullet. When going to paper patch bullet weight isn't the determining factor bullet length is king.
Tang sight on a bolt gun must be an interesting set up.

[Gunlaker]

Unless its a really weird bullet it should be plenty stable. I shoot a 320gr elliptical PP bullet in 1:15 twist .38-55 barrels patched to bore and they are quite stable. But mine are patched to bore diameter.

That ES/SD is not good, but not enough to cause vertical stringing at such short distances.

Probably bore fouling. You might not want to wipe the bore between every shot, but you probably need to.

Chris.

[RPRNY]

One thing to keep in mind also is that depending on the diameter of a paper patched bullet in this case 255 gr, it is likely a good bit longer than a 255 gr grease groove bullet. When going to paper patch bullet weight isn't the determining factor bullet length is king.
Tang sight on a bolt gun must be an interesting set up.

This is interesting. It’s a progressive twist 1:14 so it should be stabilizing a 250 grs bullet but the slicks are .365, so they will be longer than the average bear. That wants some looking into.

Bolt and tang sight work because of the relatively short bolt throw. But, to clean the bore, one must fold the tang sight down and then remove the bolt by using the trigger to drop the sear and slide it out.. Clearance is tight but it works.

306011

[Bent Ramrod]

You could see how many accurate shots you could get with 1/8” or so of tallow between the overpowder wad and the base of the boolit. Most people report “hunting” accuracy using this technique (and a blow tube), but Elmer Keith got groups at 100 yds that were “just one big hole” using this method with his .45 Sharps rifle. Two .45-caliber holes just touching is still under MOA, if you can do it.

You could also order 3 feet of 1/4” or so Delrin rod and use that for wiping between shots. It should bend into the chamber with the bolt left in place and still be rigid enough to push damp and dry patches through the bore. As long as you keep it clean, the rod should suffer the rubbing wear rather than the chamber and bore.

Black powder paper-patch boolits have been described as “a lot of work for a little shooting,” but if you’re interested in the process, it gets to be a kind of Zen thing. Especially when everybody else on the line is banging away as fast as possible with their ARs and AKs, to much less effect, accuracy-wise.

[Don McDowell]

Bent Ramrod is spot on with the delron rod for wiping. He's also good with the grease cookie, treating the exposed patch with a small drop of jojoba oil and wiping the excess off with a tea towel before heading to the range will help.
Indian Joe might be on to something with the bedding or the rest.
But still your first numbers show that a 200 fps increase stopped the wobble, but left the vertical stringing, to me points right at bullet length and fouling control.

[RPRNY]

Bent Ramrod is spot on with the delron rod for wiping. He's also good with the grease cookie, treating the exposed patch with a small drop of jojoba oil and wiping the excess off with a tea towel before heading to the range will help.
Indian Joe might be on to something with the bedding or the rest.
But still your first numbers show that a 200 fps increase stopped the wobble, but left the vertical stringing, to me points right at bullet length and fouling control.


Thanks to you and Bent Ramrod. I didn’t think a Delrin rod would have enough flex, but, your process of elimination suggests that fouling is in fact the next thing to go after, so why not try? I currently use a @ 1/10-1/8” depth grease cookie between an overpowder fiber card and another fiber card under the bullet base. Let’s see if better fouling control pays off and if not, looks like I may be buying a mold….

[Don McDowell]

Sometimes a single thick wad ( .060 or thicker) hard wad will do as much or more good as a grease cookie.

[BLAHUT]

I have found in my loads that a 1/16" thick plastic cut wad under the bullet over the powder card, helps clear the barrel. You did not say what you are using to light the fire? I found a CCI or Federal mag primer gave me 100 fps more, over a coronagraph, by just changing the primer. You could try blackhorn209 powder, works great for me, SD and fps very close all the time. Fouling is not a problem with blackhorn209 for me, can run 50 shots without loss of accuracy and no swabbing. Try different bullet weight, bullet shape, lead mix, rifle will tell you what it likes.

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
These threads make for good reading and memory freshening. Near every time north we are PP some other old barrel. Does good to be reminded the basics.

[RPRNY]

A big THANK YOU.

I haven’t been able to get out shooting so I can’t say that wiping every shot has tightened up groups, but the Delrin rod suggestion has made it possible. I can get in and wipe the barrel without having to remove the bolt or fold the tang sight. Whatever it does, it can only be for the better.

In the meantime, I would still welcome tips for getting that SD number down with 3fffg powder.

Thanks again.

[indian joe]

A big THANK YOU.

I haven’t been able to get out shooting so I can’t say that wiping every shot has tightened up groups, but the Delrin rod suggestion has made it possible. I can get in and wipe the barrel without having to remove the bolt or fold the tang sight. Whatever it does, it can only be for the better.

In the meantime, I would still welcome tips for getting that SD number down with 3fffg powder.

Thanks again.

I shoot grease groove so maybe no help
1)you are weighing charges already
2)drop tube it into the case
3) precise compression
4) good solid overpowder wad and make it neat to bore
5) get rid of the grease cookie
maybe run your FFFg over a screen even up the grain size some?

[RPRNY]

I shoot grease groove so maybe no help
1)you are weighing charges already
2)drop tube it into the case
3) precise compression
4) good solid overpowder wad and make it neat to bore
5) get rid of the grease cookie
maybe run your FFFg over a screen even up the grain size some?

Loaded via drop tube and uniform compression achieved with a compression stem. Interested in why you suggest elimination the grease cookie. Thanks.

[MichaelR]

Loading for and shooting sporting ammunition for BPCR rifles is my hobby, so I’ll make a few suggestions based on my experience. Use 16/1 lead/tin alloy. You might try 20/1 also. Use fiber milk cartons for the wads. Use a lube wad at least 3/16” to 1/4” thick of either DGL or 2 jojoba oil/ bees wax for the lube cookie. If you use Rooster Jacket on the patch, blow tubing is possible but should not be required. After firing 5 shots the bore should be clean and shiny with very little fouling in the corners of the rifling.

[indian joe]

Loaded via drop tube and uniform compression achieved with a compression stem. Interested in why you suggest elimination the grease cookie. Thanks.

I have no experience with paper patch - zero - never done it
Grease cookie under a grease groove lubed boolit is a poor (very poor) substitute for finding a boolit with decent enough lube grooves to do the job - the cookie is often messy - bleeds into the powder - sticks to the boolit base - I have seen a paper target set alight at 15 meters distance from a grease cookie stuck to the rear of a round ball from a colt. So - seen more problems from them than they solved - shouldnt need em unless your grease groove boolit is a poor design for blackpowder.
If you need lube for your PP boolit then a lubed felt wad would make sense but a cookie less so -------but I know nothing of the PP game

On top of that I view the overpowder wad as important in my loads - the grease cookie is gonna mess that up

I dont shoot grease cookies and can get my grease groove loads down into single digit ES territory without cleaning between shots ...good boolits well fit to bore, solid overpowder wad well fit to bore, careful loading process, occasional gentle use of a blow tube. Maybe its dumb luck but been doin this stuff a long time.

[gunther]

A 9.5 mm bore should give enough room for a boot lace pull-through. Find a smallish boot lace, and put three loops in it. First loop for a patch wet with cleaner of choice; maybe Hoppes or Simple Green. Last two loops for dry patches.
If the bore is too small, find a large square weed eater string and cut three loops in it.

[Gunlaker]

Loaded via drop tube and uniform compression achieved with a compression stem. Interested in why you suggest elimination the grease cookie. Thanks.

With respect to the lube/grease cookie, they work quite well in providing a good gas seal, but they don't usually give very consistent velocities. At least that has been my experience with a lot of PP rounds fired. However even with lube cookies getting into the 1.0-1.5 MOA range at 200 yards isn't too tricky, at least in my .45 cal BP rifles.

My main interest is precision from 200 to 1000 yards. In general I wouldn't use any load with an SD greater than the low 4's in FPS. With PP bullets that's pretty easily achievable with LDPE wads and a good shot to shot foul management. I know that you didn't really want to get into cleaning the heck out of your rifle between shots, but that's the easiest way to get there.

With all that said, I once won our local "Quigley Shoot" with targets from 500m to 800m using a C. Sharps .45-110 loaded with PP bullets and lube cookies.

Chris.

[RPRNY]

Thanks for the thoughts on grease cookies. Now that the Delrin rod should allow for wiping after every shot without having to fold the tang sight and remove the bolt, I will try the next batch without a grease cookie and see what impact that has on SDs.

[Bent Ramrod]

How many patches do you use to wipe between shots?

Not that a magic number does the trick, but none of my paper-patch rifles really started sitting up and talking until I decided to clean (not just wipe) the bore between shots.

I found it might take as many as four wet patches, followed by a dry one, before the rifle started showing real target accuracy. But I didn’t limit myself to four, necessarily; instead I looked at the dry patch at the end. If it was any darker than a light gray, the chances of a flyer on the next shot started going up. I’d do another wet patch and another dry one if I saw that, and the dry patch was always light gray after that.

The grease-groove guys here “wipe” between shots: one wet patch to keep the worst of the fouling down to a consistent level, and a swab to get any moisture out of the chamber. The lubricant on the boolit takes care of any “issues” beyond that, but one wet patch isn’t near enough cleaning for paper-patch boolits. And grease cookies under paper patch boolits generally don’t soften the fouling enough to give target accuracy, although there may be exceptions to the rule. Definitely worth trying a few shots to see, though.

When I started using paper patch boolits in matches, I didn’t have the time for on multiple patches so went to what are called bore pigs, bore gophers, bore critters, etc. You wet them good, push one into your chamber, give it a klonk with the wiping rod to get it into the leade, put a dry patch over the end of the rod and push both out the end of the barrel. Unless there is something drastically wrong with your load, this should clean and dry the bore simultaneously, and you are ready for the next shot.

If you don’t want to buy or make the pigs, stick with the patches, but clean the bore good until you have a load that works. Once you have your load, you can see the extent to which your gun forgives less intensive cleaning. But the bore pigs solve a lot of problems, particularly if you are shooting under time constraints.

[RPRNY]

How many patches do you use to wipe between shots?

Not that a magic number does the trick, but none of my paper-patch rifles really started sitting up and talking until I decided to clean (not just wipe) the bore between shots.

I found it might take as many as four wet patches, followed by a dry one, before the rifle started showing real target accuracy. But I didn’t limit myself to four, necessarily; instead I looked at the dry patch at the end. If it was any darker than a light gray, the chances of a flyer on the next shot started going up. I’d do another wet patch and another dry one if I saw that, and the dry patch was always light gray after that.

The grease-groove guys here “wipe” between shots: one wet patch to keep the worst of the fouling down to a consistent level, and a swab to get any moisture out of the chamber. The lubricant on the boolit takes care of any “issues” beyond that, but one wet patch isn’t near enough cleaning for paper-patch boolits. And grease cookies under paper patch boolits generally don’t soften the fouling enough to give target accuracy, although there may be exceptions to the rule. Definitely worth trying a few shots to see, though.

When I started using paper patch boolits in matches, I didn’t have the time for on multiple patches so went to what are called bore pigs, bore gophers, bore critters, etc. You wet them good, push one into your chamber, give it a klonk with the wiping rod to get it into the leade, put a dry patch over the end of the rod and push both out the end of the barrel. Unless there is something drastically wrong with your load, this should clean and dry the bore simultaneously, and you are ready for the next shot.

If you don’t want to buy or make the pigs, stick with the patches, but clean the bore good until you have a load that works. Once you have your load, you can see the extent to which your gun forgives less intensive cleaning. But the bore pigs solve a lot of problems, particularly if you are shooting under time constraints.


Thanks for the suggestion. I use more of a piglet than a pig ;-) Tried some very nice/well made bore pigs from Buffalo Arms but they were soooo tight in the bore it was more work than worth. So, I kept the felt wads, keep them in a water and Ballistol solution until use, and then push one through - it’s a tight enough fit that I get “clean” without busting a gut - then follow with a patch to dry. Seems to work well. I get a good clean, dry barrel with two passes.

Anyone have any thoughts on why the big difference in extreme spread and SD between the 1.5 fg load and the 3 fffg load? The 1.5 fg load gives an acceptable SD but low velocity while the extreme spread and SD on the 3 fffg load is unacceptable. Same rifle, primers, cases, pp bullet, ambient temperature etc.

[MichaelR]

On reducing your extreme velocity spread three things come to mind. First, loose the pure lead. It’s far too soft for 3f powder. What’s coming out the muzzle probably doesn’t look like what you put in. Seriously, try 16/1. Second, you never said what or how much lube you are using for a wad. Lube like SPG are made up of greases and waxes. They work okay for target shooting with grease groove bullets where there’s fouling control between shots but for shooting dirty oils and liquid waxes are far superior. Third, it’s possible that the powder after compression does not flow freely through the bottle neck. One shot flowing freely and the next jamming for a split second causing a pressure spike resulting in velocity increase.

[indian joe]

On reducing your extreme velocity spread three things come to mind. First, loose the pure lead.
I missed that - focussed on the follow up recommendations for alloys

It’s far too soft for 3f powder. What’s coming out the muzzle probably doesn’t look like what you put in. Seriously, try 16/1.
Second, you never said what or how much lube you are using for a wad.
I think somewhere he said 1/10th to 1/8th "

Lube like SPG are made up of greases and waxes. They work okay for target shooting with grease groove bullets where there’s fouling control between shots but for shooting dirty oils and liquid waxes are far superior.

Third, it’s possible that the powder after compression does not flow freely through the bottle neck. One shot flowing freely and the next jamming for a split second causing a pressure spike resulting in velocity increase.

one of my main interests is a 45/75 - a bottleneck case in shape but big enough hole at the front that it should negate your traffic jam idea

That said I load for it alongside a 45/70 (very close to same powder capacity, same boolits over top) I can tell you for sure and certain that powder compresses completely differently in the bottleneck compared to the straight case - you can feel it, can see it if you dig em out. I have run some nice low ES numbers with that 45/75 so its not created a problem.

OP also needs to be diligent that no part of the wad stack gets below the parallel part of the case neck - should not be a problem with PP but one more thing to tick off the list


A couple of of interesting points that sent me back for a re read

[Gunlaker]

One reason for big velocity variation with PP bullets is gas cutting. The gas cuts its way past the bullet before it bumps up fully. If you are able to recover some bullets your probably see the cuts around the groove corners. The FFFg burns faster and is more likely to get gas cutting than the 1.5. It can be a fine line balancing alloy hardness, powder granulation, and wads to get it all to work right. Most all of my rifles are very happy with Swiss Fg, or Swiss 1.5, a 0.060" LDPE wad, and a 16:1 bullet. And a perfectly clean bore shot to shot. For that I use 2 different systems. 3 or more wet patches followed by 2 drys. Depending on the weather. Or two passes with BACO bore wipes. One felt + dry patch, and do it twice. In all of my .45 cal rifles that's pretty much guaranteed success. The only time I vary the wad stack is when I use Kenny Wasserburger's wad stack in my .45-110 or .45-100.

Chris.

[MichaelR]

I’m not real big on German rifles but most rifles that I use seem like yours have a plain blade front sight even with the tang sight and are jadgewehr meant for 200 yard hunting. If you can live with 2 MOA for 5 to 10 shots, you should be able to do it with no wiping or blow tubing. That’s a 200 to 300 meter hunting rifle very much like the .38-55 Marlin Ballard, an excellent deer/bear rifle.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Sometimes under compressed load, a magnum primer can reduce ES.

[RPRNY]

Sometimes under compressed load, a magnum primer can reduce ES.

Definitely worth trying. Though compression in these loads is very limited - a tenth to an eighth of an inch at most - and nothing is below the base of the neck. Nevertheless, another variable to consider and address.

[indian joe]

Definitely worth trying. Though compression in these loads is very limited - a tenth to an eighth of an inch at most - and nothing is below the base of the neck. Nevertheless, another variable to consider and address.

compression? I couldnt find (google) case dimensions but from pictures of commercial brass -- this round looks proportionally like a reduced size 45/75 - so - one tenth to one eighth compression in this amounts to almost nothing (case neck : case body) it be like 1 or 2 mm in a straight wall case - have you tried more compression ? One of our regular posters tests ladder loads - increase in one grain increments until you hit the sweet spot
Edit - just for the heck of it - drop tubed into a shortnecked 45/75 case - 92 grains of last century Goex 5FA (this is graphited commercial bit finer than FFFg) level to top of case mouth - in my compression press - 20pound at the end of the handle -I thought was plenty - got me barely 4.5 mm compression - when I dug that load out with a small screwdriver the neck was tight compressed = came out half powdered and half grainy - by time I got to the bottom of the case it was full grain structure with just a few clods in it - mostly poured out after a slight tickle

there are two points I would make
1) yes the wide ES number needs fixing - whatever it takes to do that is worthwhile - if its not the cause of the problem, it pulls at confidence.
2) are you sure that 1) is the cause of your shot dispersion? - if was me I would be hampered by a post front sight and I would be serious about bedding / heat distortion until I eliminated that - do that by shooting a timed group - if its cold out jack three through it to get acclimatised, set the clock, clean the gun, (properly, clean dry bore) when ten minutes is gone fire one shot, rinse and repeat - clean the gun between shots and fire one every ten minutes on the dot - its a pain in the butt boring but an hour (5 shots) will tell you something - one way or tother - - just for kicks take a blow tube with you - just a bit of clear plastic tube that will fit the chamber but not go down bore - when you done the hour of slow fire punishment - let another five go - one long slow exhale down the tube between shots - two if its hot and dry out. What happened there ? did the vertical come back? - did the last couple shots blow out of the group? tick another box .................

[RPRNY]

@ Indian Joe - Thanks for the suggestions. My rifle has an MVA globe front sight. The 9.5x47R is indeed shaped rather like the 45-75, albeit a somewhat sharper shoulder. Compression is really just to ensure uniformity. It’s loaded via drop tube. Again compression is much the same with 1.5 fg and 3fffg.