.44 Special +P First Foray

[Scrumbag]

Good evening all,

Hope this finds everyone well after the week. Popped out to the garage for an hour this evening and loaded up some punchy 44 special.

https://i.imgur.com/4Fcah6Q.jpg

Loaded up a ladder with Handloader Magazine data for .44 Special +P as the bullets are just a bit too long to cycle well in my .44 mag lever action and I liked the idea of a faster, punchier recoiling load. It’s a 25kpsi load and given .44 mag tops out at nearly 40kpsi should be fine.

Anyway, it’s quite a “historic” load – 15.2-16.7gr of 2400 coming up in 0.2gr increments. A hot .44 Special load? Must be challenging my inner Elmer! (Hopefully it’s Keith rather than Fudd…)

Scrummy

[Bazoo]

Interesting to challenge Keith with a Thompson bullet.

I’ve never messed with that area yet but I may some day. Interested to see how it goes.

[Scrumbag]

@Bazoo yep, a bit of a juxtaposition but I think will work. If not, back to the drawing board.

Still, have nearly 1,000 of these bullets so I have some chance for experimentation

[Bazoo]

I have been wanting to get copies of both a 429215 and a 429244 myself. I have the RCBS 44-240-swc and haven’t had the best results. But I think part of it is me. The lee 432-265-RF ranchdog is accurate though in the limited tests I’ve done. But it ain’t really to my liking. I like the RCBS 44-250-k I have, but I am just getting into the experiments really. So far so good.

And I have a lee 429-200-rf that I have high hopes for.

[Paul105]

One of my favorite bullets in 44s.

Here's a couple 25 yd groups with different manufacturer's 429244s. Rest at 25 yds from my FA97 .44 special. Bullets seated to and crimped in crimp grove. Starline cases (not top brass as stated on targets).

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/FA9744spTargetMatts.jpg
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/FA9744spTargetAlumGC.jpg
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My most used 44 Mag load is 17.5gr A2400 in .44 MAGNUM CASES with the bullet deep seated and crimped over the front drive band (also works with Lyman Keith 250 and 240gr SWCBB commercial cast). DO NOT DEEP SEAT IN 44 SPECIAL CASES.

[Scrumbag]

Very good stuff @paul105.

I might try seating deep with 44 mag to see how it goes.

[Scrumbag]

Bazoo, sounds like you are well sorted

[Bazoo]

That is good shooting Paul. I can do about twice that on a good day with irons. But I ain’t pushing the limit either. Recoil doesn’t suit me. I can’t tolerate anything over about the skeeter load, and not much of that because of CTS.

Scrumbag, here’s a thread that might interest you. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bazoo’s-44-special-casual-loading-and-adventures-thread.903012/

[Paul105]

Here's another target shot with the Freedom Arms Model 97 (this is a strong platform): 325gr (load data not given)Top and a medium load with the 429244 and 6.0gr HP38 bottom right.
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/websize/26ca9a7f-5692-43f5-994f-f68ae77792bd_zpskb0o3krx.jpg
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Don't have a picture and this is a cast bullet forum but the Hornady 180gr JHP may be the most accurate bullet in my FA M97.

So, there you have it, from mild to wild and bullet weights from 180 to 325, the mid sized FA97 44 special is an extremely versatile little package.
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/websize/FA97%2044%20Special%20thumbnail_IMG_46043.jpg
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Was doing some load verification with several guns and a couple of differnt loads -- here's one shot with the 429244 in a S&W .44 Mag 6" Classic DX. 3 shots only to verify loads accy. Rested at 50 yards
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https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/websize/Target%2050%20yds%20629%20DX.jpg

[Scrumbag]

@Bazoo, thanks for that, interesting reading.

Interested to see Vihtavouri powders coming up a bit. They are rated as good here but don't always see as much data as one would like.

I am still working through Unique for my plinking loads. I think I have finally found a volumetric powder thrower that gives consistent charges with it so that helps.

Scrummy

[Bazoo]

@Bazoo, thanks for that, interesting reading.

Interested to see Vihtavouri powders coming up a bit. They are rated as good here but don't always see as much data as one would like.

I am still working through Unique for my plinking loads. I think I have finally found a volumetric powder thrower that gives consistent charges with it so that helps.

Scrummy
You bet.

I use a lee perfect powder measure. I’m okay with unique but it doesn’t measure as good as others. I hit the mark or get .1 lighter. I can live with it. If anything is off with the throw, I rethrow. It has varied as much as .2 but as long as I’m in my rhythm it’s .1.

[Scrumbag]

You bet.

I use a lee perfect powder measure. I’m okay with unique but it doesn’t measure as good as others. I hit the mark or get .1 lighter. I can live with it. If anything is off with the throw, I rethrow. It has varied as much as .2 but as long as I’m in my rhythm it’s .1.

I have found an Auto Drum with an aftermarket hopper with a baffle in it to work best. I think I would prefer something that's a ball or at least less large flake powder next time

Scrummy

[Kosh75287]

We took a friend's 6" barreled S&W M624 on an "almost magnum" load soiree, and it was an education. We tried the 7.5/Unique/240-250 gr. LSWC load, and quickly learned why Messrs. Keith and Skelton thought so highly of it.
The 17.5/2400/240-250 gr. LSWC load seemed overly steep to the owner of the M624, so we did some reading, figuring, and head-scratching.
The "hottest" manual we had on hand listed 17.0/2400/240 as a maximum load. Another one was 17.7/2400/215 gr. LSWC ('button nose"?). We decided to err on the side of caution in both directions, and loaded 18 rounds of 17.0/2400/215 gr. LSWC. The velocity for the 240 gr. maximum load was ~1100 f/s. I don't recall the velocity for the max 215 gr. load, but OURs were likely doing all of 1100 f/s, and perhaps 1200. This was before we could afford chronographs, sadly.
None of us reported being sad that we didn't push either bullet weight to the maximum charge. We made more of the load on which we agreed, and shot it often. It was as close to "playin' Elmer Keith", as we needed to get.

[Scrumbag]

We took a friend's 6" barreled S&W M624 on an "almost magnum" load soiree, and it was an education. We tried the 7.5/Unique/240-250 gr. LSWC load, and quickly learned why Messrs. Keith and Skelton thought so highly of it.
The 17.5/2400/240-250 gr. LSWC load seemed overly steep to the owner of the M624, so we did some reading, figuring, and head-scratching.
The "hottest" manual we had on hand listed 17.0/2400/240 as a maximum load. Another one was 17.7/2400/215 gr. LSWC ('button nose"?). We decided to err on the side of caution in both directions, and loaded 18 rounds of 17.0/2400/215 gr. LSWC. The velocity for the 240 gr. maximum load was ~1100 f/s. I don't recall the velocity for the max 215 gr. load, but OURs were likely doing all of 1100 f/s, and perhaps 1200. This was before we could afford chronographs, sadly.
None of us reported being sad that we didn't push either bullet weight to the maximum charge. We made more of the load on which we agreed, and shot it often. It was as close to "playin' Elmer Keith", as we needed to get.

Sounds good, Kosh.

I'm only going to be running these through a lever action but as I think they are a bit over 1.55" they aren't that far off where a lot of manufacturers load their .44 mag rounds. Think 16.7gr should be enough for a bit more thump on the shoulder than 8gr of Unique and a 240gr RNFP ;)

Scrummy

[Scrumbag]

Bazoo, quick question for you: Do you think N105 needs a Magnum primer? (am loading up some 180gr non-lead in .44 mag)

Scrummy

[Bazoo]

I don’t know sir. Unfortunately I don’t have experience with any of the VV powders yet.

A little googling found this https://www.vihtavuori.com/powder/n105-super-magnum/ and in their 44 mag data they have listed standard primer. So I’d be comfortable with it.

[wilecoyote]

Bazoo, quick question for you: Do you think N105 needs a Magnum primer? (am loading up some 180gr non-lead in .44 mag)Scrummy
if allowed, I only have VV available here, and I reload .44mag._
I have been using VV N110 for about twenty years,
therefore more progressive than 105, without any need for magnum primers.
hope can help_

[Kosh75287]

Coyote Astuto (Amico mio!),

Vai al sito Web di VV e verifica se specificano i primer magnum per N110. Se non specificano il loro utilizzo, non li userei.

Saluti!

[wilecoyote]

Coyote Astuto (Amico mio!),Vai al sito Web di VV e verifica se specificano i primer magnum per N110. Se non specificano il loro utilizzo, non li userei.Saluti!

Kosh,
since 2000 or thereabouts, that is, anyway long before I had a computer, I reload exclusively with Vihtavuori in my handguns.
that doesn't make me an expert handloader in any way, but over time I have learned to consider with extreme caution what they indicated on their reloading manuals, especially as regards the maximum values of recommended doses, as well as regarding the minimum recommended.
even about the primers to use I never have full confidence in what is written on the tables.
this is because I risk myself and my vintage S&Ws first.
regarding the use of which primers in my 29s., the normal CCI LPP 300 have always served me well. this with VV N320, VV N350, VV N110_
of course I'm talking about reliability/safety and not necessarily max performance studies, which are not in my abilities nor my ending goal_

I also confess that even if usually I don't carpe Scotch, I often carpe Hennessy:oops:
prosit ! :drinks:

[Kosh75287]

Do you have a reloading manual from some other company that is new enough to include VV propellants? The online Speer manual lists the use of CCI 300 (Standard Large Pistol) primers in .454 Casull. .45 Colt for Ruger & T/C pistols only, and in .357 Magnum. In all of these calibers, H110/W296 was used with magnum pistol ptimers, so it looks like they're not hesitant to use magnum pistol primers when indicated. I tried to look up .44 Magnum data, but their website has it temporarily unavailable. The .41 Magnum data is the same way.
I get that you do not trust VV's data, but I've found Speer to be very reliable for nearly 40 years. MY conclusion is that N110 is best used with standard pistol primers, whether large or small.

And I'VE also disposed of a litre or 10 of Hennessy, in my younger days! I remember it fondly!

Saluti! (or as my ancestors would say, Slàinte!)

[wilecoyote]

. .......Saluti! (or as my ancestors would say, Slàinte!)

I fully agree about VVN110 and std. primers, as about the WW296 (with which I began) and magnum primers, then the 296 became unavailable here,
next I discovered that I could do .44 plinking even without pretending to be Elmer Keith_
and I learned more sedated solutions from your manuals and from your magazines, at the time.
Yes, all the manuals you mention are in my possession, and more, and the computer is certainly a great way to update it, even for me.
As far as I know, Vihtavuori has been acquired by Beretta, and Beretta imports this powder here, therefore it's the only quality brand widely available around here, if/when available, as the various primers these days, and not even I talk about today's ret. prices_
in any case I tend to work with components that I know and above all reasonably available, rather than studying any other powder, even better, generally Swedish or American, of which today I could find a pound and then never again for a year, as often happened here.
my poor trust on VV data finds reason in the suspicion that when VV entered the US market it boasted start-to-maximum performance achievable only with N110 doses that I prefer to avoid in my 29s, 27s and 19, especially considering my amateurish use, not hunting or silhouette comp., just to understand.
conversely I noticed that, in the absence of faster revolver powders at hand, the N110 itself can work well in 44mag. cases + cast in doses officially unsafe, below the recommended minimums, say at .44spl. recoil levels, without any problems and good accuracy, but these are my private games, byproduct of our gun-related laws that limit the overall amount of powder that can be held by a reloader, etc. etc._
this without questioning the validity of the official data, but trying to make the few pounds allowed work at their best, and taking into account that some rifle powder must also fit in my total allowed weight_

(I would really like fully answer you in Gaelic, but my translator has some limits ;-)
maybe some more Hennessy could help me, but I fear myself talkin'French next :p)
Kosh, thank for your attention and for the opportunity of some talk !

[wilecoyote]

Coyote Astuto (Amico mio!),

Vai al sito Web di VV e verifica se specificano i primer magnum per N110. Se non specificano il loro utilizzo, non li userei.

Saluti!

I checked: actually magnum primers are not indicated in my references from Vihtavuori manuals, so you are right.
I also checked my notes: I do not use them and I would not have used them anyway because with the N320, with a starting load as per the VV tables, etc., in .357magnum, I happened to have some perforated primers (normal CCI small pistol), for example. (with the N110 & CCI I had no strange surprises, o.c.).
note that I use an N frame before trying in a K frame .357_
I tend to work with dedicated attention, but still it gave me to think, because it certainly this does not depend on the honest CCI, in my book.

[ranchman]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?410374-44-SPL-the-RCBS-44-250-KT-and-VV-N110

N110 is a terrific powder for high end 44-special.. take a look at this previous thread about specifically that ... 17.5gr N110 has been my own go to load for maxed out 44 special performance for quite some time , (and) is a slightly lower pressure load than Elmers old 2400 one to boot. I've used both Rem 2,1/2 primers and Winchester large pistols with excellent results under N110. In special brass, and special-sized guns, that one will give about the nearest to 44mag performance a guy can get, very safely.

Give that thread a look

[smkummer]

A few years ago, I had a range day with my Colt New Frontier 7 1/2” 44 special. I had standard 44 special loads at about 750 fps, skeeter loads at 950 and Kieth loads at about 1100 or more. I had a metal target at 50 and about 125 yards. I throughly like the 750-950 loads at the 50 yard target. At 125 yards, it seemed I could not miss if I did my part with the 950 and 1100 fps loads. With the plow handle grip, the Kieth loads were not as fun. No doubt the double action grip would help the recoil a lot. The skeeter load would most likely punch through any deer here. I am convinced one only might need the Kieth load for longer ranges of which I probably wouldn’t try.

[wilecoyote]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?410374-44-SPL-the-RCBS-44-250-KT-and-VV-N110

N110 is a terrific powder for high end 44-special.. take a look at this previous thread about specifically that ... 17.5gr N110 has been my own go to load for maxed out 44 special performance for quite some time , (and) is a slightly lower pressure load than Elmers old 2400 one to boot. I've used both Rem 2,1/2 primers and Winchester large pistols with excellent results under N110. In special brass, and special-sized guns, that one will give about the nearest to 44mag performance a guy can get, very safely.
Give that thread a look

I don't know how to thank you enough for the link you gave me !:drinks::
I didn't expect to find a study about the N110, let alone the LG's evaluations !

[Scrumbag]

if allowed, I only have VV available here, and I reload .44mag._
I have been using VV N110 for about twenty years,
therefore more progressive than 105, without any need for magnum primers.
hope can help_

That's very helpful! I like Viht powders and have some N110

[Scrumbag]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?410374-44-SPL-the-RCBS-44-250-KT-and-VV-N110

N110 is a terrific powder for high end 44-special.. take a look at this previous thread about specifically that ... 17.5gr N110 has been my own go to load for maxed out 44 special performance for quite some time , (and) is a slightly lower pressure load than Elmers old 2400 one to boot. I've used both Rem 2,1/2 primers and Winchester large pistols with excellent results under N110. In special brass, and special-sized guns, that one will give about the nearest to 44mag performance a guy can get, very safely.

Give that thread a look

That really is very helpful, thank you so much!

[ranchman]

Wile & Scrum..

Appreciate your comments. There was a time about 10 years ago that I was in the same boat as you guys, no available 2400 to be found, but a similar burn-rate N110 in ample supply. I worked up handloads with N110 then, and have stuck with it ever since for serious field loads in my 41's & 44. Larry agreed to shoot pressures awhile back to verify what I found in my 44 specials, and as ya guys see in the other thread, it's all spot on, valuable data.

Certainly no handicap to only have VvN110 at hand, should the old standbys be out of stock or altogether unavailable!

[wilecoyote]

Ranchman...all I can tell is that 18 grs.of VV N110 in .44 mag. cases offer very mild recoil and good accuracy with 240 cast, no gas check, no leading, although it is a relatively expensive solution compared to a few grains of N 320 to get the same plinking goal_ this in my 29-2 8.3/8", which I don't like to torment to hole some cardboard_

[Scrumbag]

Wile & Scrum..

Appreciate your comments. There was a time about 10 years ago that I was in the same boat as you guys, no available 2400 to be found, but a similar burn-rate N110 in ample supply. I worked up handloads with N110 then, and have stuck with it ever since for serious field loads in my 41's & 44. Larry agreed to shoot pressures awhile back to verify what I found in my 44 specials, and as ya guys see in the other thread, it's all spot on, valuable data.

Certainly no handicap to only have VvN110 at hand, should the old standbys be out of stock or altogether unavailable!

Morning Ranchman,

Good to know it works. Appreciate the data too. It's the one criticisim of Vihtavouri I have recently is the lack of data they produce (Though to be fair recently they have been adding a lot more data).

Scrummy

[Scrumbag]

Ranchman...all I can tell is that 18 grs.of VV N110 in .44 mag. cases offer very mild recoil and good accuracy with 240 cast, no gas check, no leading, although it is a relatively expensive solution compared to a few grains of N 320 to get the same plinking goal_ this in my 29-2 8.3/8", which I don't like to torment to hole some cardboard_

Wiley, have you heard that Viht will discontinue N105, N530 and N32C Tin star? However, Reload Swiss are bringing out a powder called RS14 which is supposed to be very like Trail Boss.

[wilecoyote]

Wiley, have you heard that Viht will discontinue N105, N530 and N32C Tin star? However, Reload Swiss are bringing out a powder called RS14 which is supposed to be very like Trail Boss.
to be honest i'm relying on my pre-pandemic stuff, and I'm not very up to date, but since Vitht. now belongs to the Beretta group (bad news, imho), any first hand info shouldn't be hard to get here, if of interest.
(never used 530 nor 105, and probably discontinued due to lack of good sales)
I'm not in the Cowboy Shooting circuit, so I know little about the powders generally indicated for this and used by these shooters, how could they be N32CTS or RS14, I suppose.
RS powders were very appreciated here although quite hard to find,
so much so that we had to look for them in Austria_
we hope for the best, despite the current prices...

[Scrumbag]

Yes I really like Reload Swiss - RS60 and RS70 are my 2 favourite "High Energy" powders.

Scrummy

[Scrumbag]

Well folks, got to the range and did a little testing with the load ladder.

Some good results. Might try a magnum primer with some of the more promising charge weights as well.

50yds out of a 20" barrel lever action.

https://i.imgur.com/ntFq0p0l.jpg

Probably the best of the groups but some of the higher charge weights seemed to split 2 and 2 so wonder if a mag primer might sort velocity out a bit.

[racepres]

Quick question...How do y'all ensure that those rounds don't find their way into a "lesser" firearm??
ie, for some rounds, I use an entirely different Projectile, Hot to Moderate... Others (38-357) I load Hot 38 Spl to Longer OAL... (34-44, must go into a 357 chamber)
and so on!!!
Just a curiosity to me...as I get older...I need substantial Verification....

[Scrumbag]

Well, not a problem for me. I only have a .44 mag lever action so can't put a anything hotter than that in it.

[racepres]

Well, not a problem for me. I only have a .44 mag lever action so can't put a anything hotter than that in it.
Got it... Strangely, around me, .44 Mag brass is Plentiful +. While .44 Spl is "Hens Teeth".
Such that any neck split Mags get "new life" as Spl for Shot, or other Special loadings...
Sorry for the Drift...

[Scrumbag]

Got it... Strangely, around me, .44 Mag brass is Plentiful +. While .44 Spl is "Hens Teeth".
Such that any neck split Mags get "new life" as Spl for Shot, or other Special loadings...
Sorry for the Drift...

Not at all, helps. Special tends to be something you end up ordering but you can get it here. Also some of the historic guys are happy for Special being shot, but not 44 mag (too new)