Shop built rolling block action

[Hannibal]

Some guys reload to shoot, some guys shoot to reload, and some guys just like to work on guns. I'm in the third camp.

So, having said that I've started gathering materials for a falling block rimfire project but I'm thinking down the road a bit to a centerfire rolling block action. The thinking is I really like the idea of taking a buck with a rifle I built, black powder I made and a bullet I cast. I've got the first and last detail covered so I'm looking at an action I can build at home.
My thoughts are to go with a black powder 45-70. Plenty of power and range for a whitetail but I'm not sure what action I want to use. I've gathered up some research material on rolling block action design from the mid to late 1800s so those are the designs I'm considering. There are a whole bunch of Sharps and Rem 1883 replicas out there but they're complex enough that I don't think that's a viable option for me and buying a replica isn't the point for me.
So. Anyone here been down this road who might have some experience and insight? Any simple actions you'd recommend and/or any to avoid?

Thanks for looking.

[BLAHUT]

I use a rolling block 45/70 for long range, 1000yds. Would love a falling block, Does not need to be so critical on overall length, has a camming action. A friend built a rolling block, care must be taken, can turn into an automatic ejector.

[Hannibal]

I use a rolling block 45/70 for long range, 1000yds. Would love a falling block, Does not need to be so critical on overall length, has a camming action. A friend built a rolling block, care must be taken, can turn into an automatic ejector.

Automatic ejector? As in breech failure? This is my primary concern and why I will be using low pressure BP loads exclusively. You just can't cram too much BP in a 45-70 case to have the kind of problems smokeless powder presents so that's why I'm going that route.

Plus all that smoke. :)

[Reg]

Making a action from scratch is something that is very doable but if you have never done such before do some research fist. Frank deHaas put out a number of good books on that exact subject. They will take a little looking to find but they are out there. Look for U tube videos, there are several. Also several of the home machinist sites have gone into this.
Rodney Storie ( Story ? ) is making forging kits again but I don’t know if he is doing the rolling block. He is online.
It’s a fun project. Go for it!!

[redneck1]

Depends on the type of build , a laminate build would be fine for a rimfire or low pressure pistol cartridge build like a .32 s&w .
But would be a bad idea for anything more then that .

Built from bar stock using heat treated 4140 or similar alloy and heat treating it you could build your own if you have the time and effort .

The dehaas actions already mentioned really are a good place to start if you've never scratch built your own action before .

[M-Tecs]

Some guys reload to shoot, some guys shoot to reload, and some guys just like to work on guns. I'm in the third camp.

So, having said that I've started gathering materials for a falling block rimfire project but I'm thinking down the road a bit to a centerfire rolling block action. The thinking is I really like the idea of taking a buck with a rifle I built, black powder I made and a bullet I cast. I've got the first and last detail covered so I'm looking at an action I can build at home.
My thoughts are to go with a black powder 45-70. Plenty of power and range for a whitetail but I'm not sure what action I want to use. I've gathered up some research material on rolling block action design from the mid to late 1800s so those are the designs I'm considering. There are a whole bunch of Sharps and Rem 1883 replicas out there but they're complex enough that I don't think that's a viable option for me and buying a replica isn't the point for me.
So. Anyone here been down this road who might have some experience and insight? Any simple actions you'd recommend and/or any to avoid?

Thanks for looking.


The only way for an RB to auto eject. is for the breech to failure. I like HiWalls so I am in the process of building a couple of actions from bars stock. It real depends on what you have for a shop and machining abilities?????

What is a Rem 1883?

https://www.midwayusa.com/larrys-short-stories/the-remington-rolling-block/258


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOn5_GdYzYc


Automatic ejector? As in breech failure? This is my primary concern and why I will be using low pressure BP loads exclusively. You just can't cram too much BP in a 45-70 case to have the kind of problems smokeless powder presents so that's why I'm going that route.

Plus all that smoke. :)

Selecting proper materials will not make the machining more difficult. As stated Frank DeHaas has a couple of very basic designs

https://www.bevfitchett.us/rifle-plans/introduction-1.html

Fairly simple design here that will give you an idea what this will take. https://archive.org/details/BuildingASingleShotFallingBlockRifleActionMueller/mode/2up

Some options here https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/falling-block-designs.17050/

[Hannibal]

The only way for an RB to auto eject. is for the breech to failure. I like HiWalls so I am in the process of building a couple of actions from bars stock. I real depends on what you have for a shop and machining abilities?

What is a Rem 1883?

https://www.midwayusa.com/larrys-short-stories/the-remington-rolling-block/258


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOn5_GdYzYc

Well, that's what I get for relying on memory these days. Winchester 1883.

I don't like side hammer designs simply because of the aesthetics but I may find that to be the only viable option. I don't have the room for a mill so that limits my opinions to a degree, but mills weren't widely available in 1850-1890 so I shouldn't think it's a must. Again, I'm looking at black powder cartridge options for multiple reasons. If I wanted to shoot at maximum velocity and beat myself to death I'd get a Ruger #1 in 45-70 and have at it. That's not what I'm interested in. To those who do I've no problem with that, it's just not where my interests lie.

[Bent Ramrod]

There are guys on the ASSRA site that have built actions from scratch. Can’t remember a rolling block specifically, but the falling blocks and other designs will at least allow you to see the equipment needed and what problems come up.

If you don’t have a milling machine or a lathe milling fixture, you’d better be good with a file and chisel.

[Hannibal]

Depends on the type of build , a laminate build would be fine for a rimfire or low pressure pistol cartridge build like a .32 s&w .
But would be a bad idea for anything more then that .

Built from bar stock using heat treated 4140 or similar alloy and heat treating it you could build your own if you have the time and effort .

The dehaas actions already mentioned really are a good place to start if you've never scratch built your own action before .

The only issue I have with the Vault Locks designed by De Haas is I just can't get past the appearance of them. Plenty of rolling block black powder designs out there, I'm just not deep enough into the research to decide if there's a simple design from the 1850-1890 range that can tolerate the breech pressure from a black powder 45-70 load to consider. Were the early failures due to barrel limitations of the day or were they from the limitations of the steel used in the actions or were the designs poor? I don't know so that's what I'm trying to determine.

[country gent]

I believe the 1883 would be the Rem Hepburn.

Lone Star converted some rollers to side lever operation, which is interesting.

[Hannibal]

There are guys on the ASSRA site that have built actions from scratch. Can’t remember a rolling block specifically, but the falling blocks and other designs will at least allow you to see the equipment needed and what problems come up.

If you don’t have a milling machine or a lathe milling fixture, you’d better be good with a file and chisel.

I don't know about chisels but I'm the baddest dude with a file you'll ever meet. That I can say with confidence.

[M-Tecs]

That would be an 1885 Winchester not 1883.

[john.k]

The original rolling block design had a fixed stud on the block act as an extractor......very simple.....however ,the later mods for effective extraction became considerably more complex,and difficult to make ........my last single shot was a replica Starr carbine.......I cheated a bit ,because I had an original lock ,which Dixie were selling at one time for $30.

[Hannibal]

That would be an 1885 Winchester not 1883.

Very well, obviously my memory isn't serving me well. Point is, I realize replicas are available and they're complicated enough the garage machinist will have difficulty at best if not finding it an impossible task.
I plan to color case harden whatever action I decide to use for appearance as well as function. It's not a skill I've mastered so there will be a learning curve there as well.

[john.k]

Incidentally,when the Spanish were testing the rolling block ,they found it impossible to blow one up.....one load tried was 5 bullets and 700gr of powder.(black ,of course)

[Hannibal]

Incidentally,when the Spanish were testing the rolling block ,they found it impossible to blow one up.....one load tried was 5 bullets and 700gr of powder.(black ,of course)

I've no Intention of testing one to the point of failure, I just want to build my own and not have to worry about putting an eye out. There are many, many discussions about breech pressure and I don't have the skill to sort wheat from chaff. I don't want to go overboard but I don't want to be part of a catastrophic failure, either.

[M-Tecs]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer but without at least a rudimentary mill or drill press and lathe this is going to be a challenge. Review the 44 pages here https://archive.org/details/BuildingASingleShotFallingBlockRifleActionMueller/page/n43/mode/2up and determine what parts you can and can't build with a file?

[Hannibal]

I have a lathe and the skill to use it. Again, I find the idea that a mill is necessary to build an action designed and available between 1850-1890 to be questionable. Perhaps I'm ill-informed but where were mills available before the development of smokeless powder?

There may well be a level of skill required that's rarely seen today and a level of precision a available now that was unthinkable during that time frame. I don't know the answers to these questions. That's why I started this thread. If someone can point me to a reference or documentation that I've yet to find I'd be very greatful and appreciative. However speculation by any of us is simply that. Speculation.

[john.k]

The only person who could build one with a forge and file would be an old world 8year apprenticed gunmaker ..........i certainly would not even try.........but I would do it with a small lathe (not a toy) with a milling slide ,and a welder ........IMHO ,a lot of single shots are fairly easily made as two halves welded along the centeline .........for instance ,if I made a Ballard,I would make two halves and weld together.

[Hannibal]

The only person who could build one with a forge and file would be an old world 8year apprenticed gunmaker ..........i certainly would not even try.........but I would do it with a small lathe (not a toy) with a milling slide ,and a welder ........IMHO ,a lot of single shots are fairly easily made as two halves welded along the centeline .........for instance ,if I made a Ballard,I would make two halves and weld together.

A Ballard. Very good, I think I have a reference that shows such a design. I'll look into that tomorrow. Thank you for your insight and suggestion.
I've no experience with a forge so such designs aren't what I was considering. Probably should have made that clear earlier. Sorry for any confusion.

[dverna]

I am humbled by what some here are capable of doing...or willing to try.

Good luck on your project.

IIRC a few years ago a member here (Ballistics in Scotland) was working on building a Martini action. Don’t know if he ever completed it, but at least he tried.

Pretty impressive work to build you4 own action.

[redneck1]

Well we can identify one mistake your already making .. you can't compare mass production to one off builds .

And while you are correct you didn't see mills in 1875 or even 1975 production lines .n. but what you did see was a whole bunch of machines purpose built for each single operation .

I say that because single minded thinking will get you nowhere , if you want to build without a mill your gonna need to learn how to think outside the box

[Hannibal]

Well we can identify one mistake your already making .. you can't compare mass production to one off builds .

And while you are correct you didn't see mills in 1875 or even 1975 production lines .n. but what you did see was a whole bunch of machines purpose built for each single operation .

I say that because single minded thinking will get you nowhere , if you want to build without a mill your gonna need to learn how to think outside the box

Yep, I understand that. I also understand it won't be easy or the internet would be filled with examples. If it weren't a challenge then what would be the point?

I can find plenty of reasons to give up. I thought perhaps someone had gone here before and might have some first hand knowledge to share. If not I'll figure it out myself. It'll take longer but I'll learn more along the way.

[elmacgyver0]

Not a rolling block, but a little homemade rimfire rifle in 17HMR I made a few years ago.
A lot of hacksawing, filing, welding, carving and sanding.
Building guns can be fun, but305566 it is also a lot of work.

[redneck1]

Ummm so you missed my point a little , easy enough to do .
In more simplified format , take stock on tools and skills you have and decide on what to build using that information instead of setting yourself up for failure by deciding on a build that's beyond your means .

The dehaas chicopee is a good starting point , a lathe , welder and a drill press will get you there with a bit of hard work .

[Hannibal]

Been there, done that. Moving on to something else. And your point about mass produced parts is a good one. Only thing is with massed produced parts there are one or two guys smart enough to set up one machine/process. After that a worker with some training and experience can take over. With a one-off you do it all yourself. I don't know if I'm up to it or not because I've not finished it yet. Time will tell.

[Hannibal]

That looks like a De Haas design. Am I at least close? I completed a Chicopee in .22 Hornet. I used a Green Mountain blank and put a step profile on it with an octagon on the chamber end. Used Osage orange for the stock. Had a bit of trouble with the location for the trigger pin and the locking bar for the hammer. Got the parts to work without re-making anything but the trigger.

I looked at his Vault Lock design but just don't care for the looks of it.

There was a guy who was working on a Darcy action on another forum that I ran across a few years ago. That forum is defunct now I believe so I don't know if he finished it or not. Wish I could find that fellow, seemed like he really knew his stuff.

[elmacgyver0]

The two most important tools are determination and patients.
You can accomplish a lot with simple tools.

[John Taylor]

Incidentally,when the Spanish were testing the rolling block ,they found it impossible to blow one up.....one load tried was 5 bullets and 700gr of powder.(black ,of course)

Sounds like the test Winchester did on the 1876. First they took the toggle link off one side and it fired OK, then they started adding bullets and powder till the case ruptured and blew the side covers off. I know what that's like because it happened to me with some old brass that let go.

[John Taylor]

The phoenix rifle would probably be the easiest build but you probably would need a mill. Remington sued Whitworth over the rolling block so Whitworth came out with the Phoenix. The trigger guard off a phoenix looks like it will fit the Remington.

[M-Tecs]

That looks like a De Haas design. Am I at least close? I completed a Chicopee in .22 Hornet. I used a Green Mountain blank and put a step profile on it with an octagon on the chamber end. Used Osage orange for the stock. Had a bit of trouble with the location for the trigger pin and the locking bar for the hammer. Got the parts to work without re-making anything but the trigger.

I looked at his Vault Lock design but just don't care for the looks of it.

There was a guy who was working on a Darcy action on another forum that I ran across a few years ago. That forum is defunct now I believe so I don't know if he finished it or not. Wish I could find that fellow, seemed like he really knew his stuff.

This one https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?325040-My-Rifle-Action ?

[Hannibal]

Incidentally,when the Spanish were testing the rolling block ,they found it impossible to blow one up.....one load tried was 5 bullets and 700gr of powder.(black ,of course)

How is it even possible to get 700 grains in one unless you're dumping it in from the muzzle? :veryconfu

[Hannibal]

This one https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?325040-My-Rifle-Action ?

It appears that fellow still logs on occasionally so I sent him a PM. That might be the Darcy action I was thinking of. I'd like to pick your brain a bit as well tomorrow if you don't mind? Getting past my bedtime and I'm still a working stiff.

[M-Tecs]

It appears that fellow still logs on occasionally so I sent him a PM. That might be the Darcy action I was thinking of. I'd like to pick your brain a bit as well tomorrow if you don't mind? Getting past my bedtime and I'm still a working stiff.

No problem. I will PM you my email and phone number. I prefer emails verse PMs

[Bent Ramrod]

The Lincoln milling machine became a fixture in production shops in the mid-1850s after Pratt added a screw feed to replace the rack-and-pinion feed on the original 1840 design. This allowed finer cuts, closer tolerances and better finishes on the parts. The arms factories had them in place in plenty of time to support the Civil War, and it is my understanding that a few of them were still in use at the Winchester plant, and sent to the boneyard in the notorious change to modern manufacturing methods in 1964.

The “little old gunmaker,” with his hand tools at the bench, was pretty much relegated to final fitting and finishing by the mid-1800s. But they were still the go-to for experimental designs, prototypes and one-offs. The Browning Bros. made up the patent model of the Single Shot with forge, chisels and files, but when they went into production, they had a couple of lathes and a milling machine in their shop. They also sent patterns to a forging shop and ordered the rough forgings from them. And when they sold the design to Winchester, they reportedly were pretty glad to be out of manufacturing.

The ASSRA Archivist has blueprints for many of the old single shot actions for a nominal fee. You might see if they have Rolling Block drawings so you could study the parts.

Rodney Storie sells casting sets for the old single-shot actions. This might be a better way to go than making everything from the solid. The sets need drilling, reaming and fit-and-finish work that could conceivably be done by an expert filer. Pins and screws need to be made, but that is what a lathe is for.

[Hannibal]

The Lincoln milling machine became a fixture in production shops in the mid-1850s after Pratt added a screw feed to replace the rack-and-pinion feed on the original 1840 design. This allowed finer cuts, closer tolerances and better finishes on the parts. The arms factories had them in place in plenty of time to support the Civil War, and it is my understanding that a few of them were still in use at the Winchester plant, and sent to the boneyard in the notorious change to modern manufacturing methods in 1964.

The “little old gunmaker,” with his hand tools at the bench, was pretty much relegated to final fitting and finishing by the mid-1800s. But they were still the go-to for experimental designs, prototypes and one-offs. The Browning Bros. made up the patent model of the Single Shot with forge, chisels and files, but when they went into production, they had a couple of lathes and a milling machine in their shop. They also sent patterns to a forging shop and ordered the rough forgings from them. And when they sold the design to Winchester, they reportedly were pretty glad to be out of manufacturing.

The ASSRA Archivist has blueprints for many of the old single shot actions for a nominal fee. You might see if they have Rolling Block drawings so you could study the parts.

Rodney Storie sells casting sets for the old single-shot actions. This might be a better way to go than making everything from the solid. The sets need drilling, reaming and fit-and-finish work that could conceivably be done by an expert filer. Pins and screws need to be made, but that is what a lathe is for.

My thinking is to avoid a 'kit' if possible, but that may prove to be impractical if not impossible. I'm just beginning to research action designs so at this point I've no idea what direction this project will go. When I think of milling machines I think of very large castings weighing hundreds if not thousands of pounds. Such a machine is simply not practical to purchase and place in a home garage for rare use on occasional projects in my opinion. I've a bit of experience running a large mill and as I've stated, I don't think it's a practical option for the space I have and my very limited use. Once I've an idea of what seems appropriate and possible I may discover that there are other options available but I'm not counting on it.

[Hannibal]

Looking around a bit this morning and I may change my mind and go with a 50-70 cartridge rather than 45-70. This will help ensure that a modern high pressure round is never accidentally used in the rifle. As I stated earlier the goal is to hand build something simple, not see if I can push the limits of the cartridge.

[405grain]

Hannibal: I'm building a Chicopee centerfire in 22 K-Hornet. A couple of years ago I built a small rolling block action, and used a rotary table on a Bridgeport mill to machine the mating surfaces for the hammer and breech block. Overall the rolling block worked, but wasn't as good as I'd have liked it to be. With your tooling and experience I would suggest that you try building the Darcy action. This action would be more than strong enough for your needs. It looks a lot better than either of the vault locks. With the round breech block it's a lot easier to machine the receiver than other falling blocks. The Darcy action has already been built successfully for smokeless 45-70 loads, so you'll have no worries about the actions strength. The Darcy action could be built with a metal lathe, a drill press, and hand tools. Because the trigger group on the Darcy is a separate attachment, you can get creative with it if you like (a double set trigger would be a possibility). I plan on building a Darcy action in the future, but have other gun projects that I need to finish first. I think the Darcy falling block would be a good choice for your project.

[Hannibal]

Hannibal: I'm building a Chicopee centerfire in 22 K-Hornet. A couple of years ago I built a small rolling block action, and used a rotary table on a Bridgeport mill to machine the mating surfaces for the hammer and breech block. Overall the rolling block worked, but wasn't as good as I'd have liked it to be. With your tooling and experience I would suggest that you try building the Darcy action. This action would be more than strong enough for your needs. It looks a lot better than either of the vault locks. With the round breech block it's a lot easier to machine the receiver than other falling blocks. The Darcy action has already been built successfully for smokeless 45-70 loads, so you'll have no worries about the actions strength. The Darcy action could be built with a metal lathe, a drill press, and hand tools. Because the trigger group on the Darcy is a separate attachment, you can get creative with it if you like (a double set trigger would be a possibility). I plan on building a Darcy action in the future, but have other gun projects that I need to finish first. I think the Darcy falling block would be a good choice for your project.

I agree and I've actually been in contact with the designer of that action. Very nice and highly talented man to put it mildly. I'm planning to spend the next few days familiarizing myself with that action but it appears to be just what I'm looking for at a quick glance. Thanks for the suggestion and I hope your project comes together for you!

[lar45]

Many years ago I wanted to see if I could build a gun from scratch over Christmas break.
Now don't laugh too hard.
The following picture may be tough to look at.
https://lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/cb30/cb30-05.jpg
It's ugly for sure, I could have cleaned it up to make it more presentable, but the exercise was to see if I could make a working functional gun in 2 weeks in the garage.
I made my own chamber reamer, 30x38spl, I called it the 30 Erin for my youngest son.

https://lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/cb30/cb30-03.jpg



https://lsstuff.com/howdah/pics/cb30/cb30-02.jpg

Action designs can be very simple like this one, or very complex.

Good luck on your project.

[john.k]

One action I think would be simple to build is the Alexander Henry falling block........its no more than a box with a block in it ....and an extractor.........the side hammer back action lock could be adapted to whatever was available.........For some strange reason ,the whole lower part of the reciever ring is cut away to make space for a flat spring to retract the extractor.........Id definitely leave that out.