bad Groups in 45-70

[wallacem]

Hey guys, Please help solve this grouping problem with my NEF 45-70. See target. Shooting 405 gr cast sized .460, shoots great in my other guns. Shooting here at 50 yds. This load here is 13 gr Green Dot and with cold barrel, first shot very low. Second shot high, next four shots connected together. Does this every time, starting with cold bbl.

[Norske]

Bevel-base bullets? If so, try flat base or gas check bullets.
Does this rifle barrel have a different twist rate than your others? If it's slower you may need to use shorter bullet.

[T-Bird]

Are you starting every time with a cleaned barrel?

[BLAHUT]

Clean barrel ? Twist ? Try a touch more or less powder? Pure lead ? Try a different alloy? What happens after 10 shots and you let barrel cool ? Get some creosafe and make a chamber cast so you can see what you have ?

[versa-06]

I suggest you change your charge either up or down, I've seen this before this change has worked for me in the past. I'm sure that you already know that every rifle is a 'Law' unto itself.

[ascast]

ya stop taking that first shot ...



sorry, I just could stop myself

[versa-06]

Lol

[longcruise]

It's a break action NEF! Now that's somewhat facetious, but those guns were not very well quality controlled.

Over length chambers was one of the problems. I had one of their 223s that with the bullet .003 off the lands the bullet would be approximately 1/4" OUTSIDE the case ! :veryconfu

It might be worth checking out the chamber and be sure that you are loading to the lands. Also, bullets with a longish ratio of bore riding nose are going to bump up into some peculiar shapes.

[Dapaki]

Work your ladder for this round, run them over your chrony and see what those shots are doing.

[wallacem]

I will be shooting it again tomorrow, but really can;t see that it could be the load or bullet. Four of them were tight, only the first two were out. I loaded the rounds with the bullet almost touching the rifling. Will advise again tomorrow

[725]

I've had the NEF .45-70 and it was superb in the accuracy department. Agree with a slight increase in the powder load. A grain or two.

One question: How's the lock up? I've tightened up some rattlely ones with a thin (opened up .22 case - pounded flat) sheet of brass around the hinge bar. Worked great.

[Texas by God]

If you are starting with a freshly cleaned barrel- try not cleaning it. Hey, worth a shot- pun intended[emoji16]
That's a big flyer. My 44-40 Topper shoots one out then two connected- but only an inch apart at 40yds and 2or 3 inches apart at 100yds. I've only cleaned it twice since I finished it a few years back. Once after playing with Blackpowder, and once when some commercial cast bullets left a good dose of lead behind.

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[Bird]

If you are starting with a cleaned bore, then there is no lube in front of the first fired bullet, and will get progressively better as each round is fired. Try shooting without cleaning it every time you put the gun away. That would prove or disprove the above. I think most people overclean barrels anyway, unless they are using black powder.
What does your barrel slug at?

[ascast]

OK seriously, I would try a dirty barrel as said above. If first is always out and clean, I would try that first. I have found Unique to be like this, verticle groups, but usually very tight in close like 50 yd but out at 200 on they open up verticle. NOt sure why.

[geezer56]

I have had probably 50 handi rifles of various and sundry calibers over the years. I never had one that liked a clean bore, at least not on the first couple of shots. If you are starting with a clean bore, that's probably your problem. If the bore is fouled when you start, it will be a lockup issue. Try shimming on the hinge pin if it's loose, or try the barrel on another frame if you have one that locks up ok.

[Castaway]

I'm sure you’re sandbagging the rifle for a steady rest. Move front sandbag as far rearward as the trigger guard allows. Shoot it, wait two minutes, repeat 5 times. Don’t clean, repeat again another day. How was grouping? If group is tight, don’t clean until hunting season is over. If not tight and problem starts to repeat itself, fire 10 shots and see if the following 8 shots are tightly grouped. Your barrel should be a 1:20 twist so 400 grain bullets are right in its comfort zone. I’d play with different charges to find the harmonic sweet spot on the barrel

[ABJ]

If you are starting with a cleaned bore, then there is no lube in front of the first fired bullet, and will get progressively better as each round is fired. Try shooting without cleaning it every time you put the gun away. That would prove or disprove the above. I think most people overclean barrels anyway, unless they are using black powder.
What does your barrel slug at?

Bird is very close to my thoughts. I would suggest if you have not cleaned the barrel since firing those groups, don't. Take a patch and rub some bullet lube on the patch and make one pass down the barrel before the first shot. The idea is to get the barrel in the same condition as far a lube goes as the last three shots. I use a lightly oil patch with ED's red and that has done away with cold barrel fliers. I would almost bet money it's a lube condition problem.
Tony

[Alferd Packer]

Try shooting a group while shoving a wet, then a dry patch thru, between each shot.
A clean barrel for each first shot, all in one group.
Assuming the same point of aim.

[Sgt H]

I will agree with several others on bore condition if you are starting with a clean barrel. If this is the case a little surprised it only took 2 shots to settle down. My Sharps and 1886 Browning 45-70's take 4-5 to settle down after a thorough cleaning, of course every rifle is a law unto itself. I would say almost every rifle shooting lubed lead bullets will do better with a fouled/conditioned bore. Take 22's for example, I have several very accurate rifles and they take from 15-25 rounds to settle down after a cleaning. Even rifles firing high velocity jacketed rounds will often not put the first few rounds from a clean bore in the normal group. Once I zero a rifle for hunting it does not get cleaned till after the season.

[MT Gianni]

If you're shooting cast and a non corrosive powder and primer do not clean your gun until the accuracy falls off or it wouldn't be shot for several months.

[waksupi]

Vertical stringing, decrease powder, horizontal stringing, increase powder.

[Ramjet-SS]

Heat issue the barrel is walking so to speak. Check your fore arm screw. Take the forearm off do the same shooting resting the barrel on the sandbag the same. Difference ? Barrel and forearm related no difference? Maybe load related.

Had a savage one time ran all consecutive shoots high. Fore arm screw was to long putting upward pressure on the barrel. The fact you say this is consistent my suggestion as the barrel gets warmer the the shots are stringing. Try the above let’s see if there is any difference?

[wallacem]

Today I took it out with the same three loads to try again. Did not even clean the barrel since yesterday. First group in center, second group on right, third group on left which is the same load as yesterday that was terrible, is terrible today. Bottom line, bad load. I think I was starting each time before with this load, and it made it appear that it was another problem. Today I ran that load last and it still opened up. Will do some more with these two loads. Would like to tighten them up some. The barrel slugs at .458. I am shooting .460 bullets. Wallace

[Bird]

So, what was the bad load, and what was the better load?

[wallacem]

The bad group is 13 gr of Green Dot. The other two groups, 13 gr of Unique in middle and 35.3 gr of 3031 on right.

[Mr Peabody]

If you are starting with a cleaned bore, then there is no lube in front of the first fired bullet, and will get progressively better as each round is fired. Try shooting without cleaning it every time you put the gun away. That would prove or disprove the above. I think most people overclean barrels anyway, unless they are using black powder.
What does your barrel slug at?

My thoughts too, it's the lube

[longcruise]

I would try 5744 or Shooters World Buffalo.

[gumbo333]

I’d sure try some red dot, blue dot and 700x. If you keep your barrel clean make sure you shoot 2 shots before you take it hunting. You’ve received lots of good ideas. Might try starting with loads at 1000 fps or less and see what happens. I just use published data to get 1000 fps.

[Bird]

The bad group is 13 gr of Green Dot. The other two groups, 13 gr of Unique in middle and 35.3 gr of 3031 on right.

Forget the green dot load. try increasing the unique load another grain, and the 3031 upto 38gr in 1/2 grain increments. Groups may tighten up.
3031 is a bit slow of a powder. Depending on lube and bullet, 34gr of imr4198 would be better.
Your current unique load should be shooting better than what you are getting.
If your bullets are plain based lead, they should be good up to 1350fps, again depending on lube and bullet.

[Castaway]

One other thing not mentioned is powder position. A 45-70 case is large and the volume of 13 grains of Unique is small in comparison. Try leveling the powder by holding the cartridges horizontally and gently sliding them back and forth so the powder is evenly distributed.

[Midohhntr]

Try sizing to .459, my handi-rifle is a tack driver. When I first bought it at the time all i used was the Hornaday lever revolution with the 325 ftx. After handloading for a few years now, Hornaday brass is shorter, some cast bullets in standard size brass will not fully chamber, but will with Hornady brass. I also own a Marlin 1895 the chamber is slightly longer in it. Both like bullets sized to .459 and powder coat.

[Edward]

Try sizing to .459, my handi-rifle is a tack driver. When I first bought it at the time all i used was the Hornaday lever revolution with the 325 ftx. After handloading for a few years now, Hornaday brass is shorter, some cast bullets in standard size brass will not fully chamber, but will with Hornady brass. I also own a Marlin 1895 the chamber is slightly longer in it. Both like bullets sized to .459 and powder coat. If you PC after sizing 459 you are most likely shooting 460 /Ed

[Midohhntr]

If you PC after sizing 459 you are most likely shooting 460 /Ed

I PC before sizing.. I should have clarified..

[gunseller]

Just a thought. Are you crimping the case to bullet when loading? It could be that it takes two shots to build up a little crude to hold the bullet a micro second so you get a consistent powder ignition.

[sloughfoot]

Hey guys, Please help solve this grouping problem with my NEF 45-70. See target. Shooting 405 gr cast sized .460, shoots great in my other guns. Shooting here at 50 yds. This load here is 13 gr Green Dot and with cold barrel, first shot very low. Second shot high, next four shots connected together. Does this every time, starting with cold bbl.305627

My 30-30 H&R topper does the same thing with powder coated and gas checked bullets

[Ramjet-SS]

305627

My 30-30 H&R topper does the same thing with powder coated and gas checked bullets

Glass bed the forearm the issue will go away.

[Texas by God]

Another thing to try is to keep your hand between the forend and the front sandbag.
Like a natural rested field position. I shoot all two piece stocked rifles like that.
I dont think that I'm alone, either.

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