is Solar worth the money?

[warren5421]

Wife is talking about putting Solar in. We live in Indianapolis and wonder if it would work year around. I have thought about a gen set as we are on well water and lose of power is lose of water. Would like to hear from solar users.

[rancher1913]

i started a thread on this and got flamed by a lot of members for even considering solar over a generator. the biggest problem with solar is the batteries needed to carry on when the sun dont shine. malpaso has been using rolls batteries and gave some good links to read. i have been leaning toward the lifepos, they have had problems with fires but most reputable manufactures have a bms system that has taken care of that problem. you can get plug and play systems nowdays that hold up and are good for no nothing beginners because everything is sized and engineered for you to make them idiot proof. maryb advice was to just speck your own and save money which would work good if you have a lot of electrical knowledge already. some of the plug and play systems can be slaved together to make 240 volts. i have been hearing bad things about the eco flows on some of the solar forums so do your research before you jump.

[BLAHUT]

There is a ranch, a housing development in Florida that is engineered and totally of grid. They went through this last storm with no loss of power, no flooding, minimal damage, no loss of life. It is costly, yes, but if done correctly, Works all the time.
That is the problem, done correctly.
Look into this ranch housing development and see ? Check out the cost ? Then make your choice ?
In time we all will be relying on solar and wind.

[MaryB]

If you can wire a car stereo or some other 12 volt car add on you can plug together a solar setup! Manuals from the good companies are VERY good and have detailed drawings/pics of what goes where.

Solar panels
Solar panel racking(I would NOT roof mount!)
Charge controller
Inverter(48 volt is the most efficient)
Batteries(go with the heavy duty off grid batteries, they DO require monthly maintenance!)
Wire to connect it all(higher the voltage the smaller these can be, I run ~85 volts in from my panels at 15 amps, lets me use #6 wire. Lower voltage = heavier wire...)

Those are your parts, it is all positive/negative wires so wiring is pretty straight forward. IF you grid tie research the fees they require!!! In my case fees would eat most of my production so I make less power than needed to run my house and just use it all. I have some circuits setup to automatically switch from battery to grid as needed. THAT gets a little complicated...

[lancem]

I am totally off grid and have been for 10+ years. Over 16 Kw of panels, 48V system with over 2000 AH of batteries. I can and do run anything I want.

My question to you is what is it you are looking for your solar to do? Do you just want to run the well pump if power goes out or run your whole house? Would you need to run all of this after dark or would running it during daylight hours be enough?

[MT Gianni]

A close friend is an engineer who has looked hard at solar. He believes that the only payback long term is through subsidies and if the cost to run electricity is over $15,000.
I would instead of considering converters, to go with as much 12 V led lighting as possible and 12 V appliances. If I were on a well I would get a 12 V pump, large tanks and gravity feed but that's just me.

[elmacgyver0]

It might be if you are young and have a lot of spare money to spend.
If you are old like me, you will never see a return for your investment.

[M-Tecs]

I basically know nothing on this subject. I do have a very good friend that owns a hunting and fishing resort in a very remote area. When he started solar/wind he went 12 volts with everything. He has since switched 100% to inverts running 120 volts supplemented with gas and wind generators.

[elmacgyver0]

I love technology, but I detest anything that requires government subsidies to be viable.
So far wind and solar just doesn't cut it.
For remote areas wind and solar has its place, other than that, not so much.

[elmacgyver0]

I guess, what I am saying is.
If you are getting government subsidies for installing wind and solar, I hope you lose your shirt.

[popper]

No. I don't have solar, won't get it. Won't use a windmill either and I did look into using one. I've watched this since the 70s, still not effective. Look for a battery power if the water pump is small. I assume a 28v DC powered pump? A small pasture solar setup might work OK, maintenance is still a pain.
edit: in the north, add weight to snow load to see if roof will take the load. Storm damage is another problem - ins pay? Most installs are rental condition. Several companies have lousy service. A small single purpose unit would be fine, or if really off-the-grid. Full house city unit - not for me.

[lancem]

I basically know nothing on this subject. I do have a very good friend that owns a hunting and fishing resort in a very remote area. When he started solar/wind he went 12 volts with everything. He has since switched 100% to inverts running 120 volts supplemented with gas and wind generators.

Yes a lot of people start out thinking 12V everything is the way to go only to find out later that 12V appliances and everything else is very high priced and at 12V power demands require expensive heavy cabling. 48V with good inverters allow you wire your house normally and use everyday items available at any big box store.

[45_Colt]

A lot of 'whether it is worth it' depends upon location. Solar needs sun, no sun, no power. Where I am located it isn't worth it. Not enough sun.

Although if I had a stream on the property, now we're talking...

45_Colt

[Rapier]

I was going solar in 2004 and decided a Windmill generator was a better option, but a two day trip to Tulsa to the show changed my mind, went to a 17 KW gas geneorator, 17 is the largest air cooled unit they made at the time. I was going natural gas but the gas company played games from 4k to 40 k for lines, so went to two 1,000 gal underground tanks, that I own, of propane. I burn about 800 gal a year for heat (3 heaters), hot water (2 tankless), clothes drying, cooking and the generator. I operate 3 buildings, the shop and house are spray foam insulated, barn is lights only.
Look at all angles including the warranty. Solar is a lif left warranty based on 20 year life and any tax break does not apply on the warranty. Generac requires a certified technician to even get a warranty or keep it, but they are real good on a whole house deal, not cheap, but real good.

[farmbif]

I put up solar charged wifi security cameras and even though one is in deep shade all spring and summer it has kept the battery charged up, amazing, I figured in the shade I would have to be taking it down or running a long wire to charge it. this is all my own personal experience with solar. but in another thread last week I describe what my mama and uncle's experience with solar has been. there is lots of great input from many members in that thread that covers both grid tie and off grid info and experiences. it shouldn't be too far down if you click on the our town section

here is the link

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?448161-bluetti-solar-generator

[ulav8r]

My cousin told me last night about a solar system he helped a friend install. The house is 7500 square feet, There is no storage, just grid tie. The system was made just a little larger than needed. His electric bill had been over $900 a month, after 5 years the system has paid for itself. Not sure of the location but it may have been in the Austin, Tx area.

My cousin is now contemplating a solar system on his new home in Taos, but the energy provider in that area will not purchase any excess electricity produced.

[fixit]

I don't know what to think about "renewable energy" other than to say, if it requires a subsidy for it to be affordable, then it probably isn't.

[HWooldridge]

The owner of the company I work for spent $84K on batteries and solar setup for his house. He is hooked up to the utility grid and basically zeroes out his electric bill every month, which averaged about $800 per month before the conversion. He’s 65 years old and plans to stay in his current house so the payback isn’t horrible if he lives a while longer…:mrgreen:

OTOH, our electric bill generally runs $200-300, less during winter, so I’m not really that enthusiastic about it for just my wife and me.

[Dave W.]

I live in Arizona, we paid a solar company to install the system, in 5 years it will have paid for itself, we are happy with it.
the best rate of return is if you purchase the system outright. We have friends that are leasing their setups, they are not happy because they just traded electric payments for the lease payments, no cost savings at all.

Our system has micro inverters on each panel, seems to be a better way to go, than one large inverter.
The down side is that if the power goes out, the solar panels quit givings us electricity. Do not want to back feed the grid and cause problems for the repair people.

Good luck with your decision.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

"Down Under" if your solar powered house catches fire, the fire brigade will let it burn until a qualified electrician is on site to disconnect it!

[dverna]

It depends where you are and how much power you use.

My power bill is about $130/mo. It would take a long time to see a return of investment. 10 years ago, when I moved here, I looked into it and the cost was in the $20k range. Then my bill was about $100/mo.

The older I get, the less time to achieve ROI, even though costs may have come down. Unless my bill gets into the $300-400 range it does not look viable.

[rancher1913]

my electric bill is 100 month just for right to have service, actual usage is on top of that and with mostly propane equipment its about 400 to 500 a month and going up every year. my goal is to tell the rural electric association to stick it.

[ascast]

I have followed this with great interest. I would love to go off grid. I would like it if some of you who have gone off grid might post links, contacts, user groups, sales peolpe, companies etc that I can really school up. Is there a "used equipment" site? I see used stuff for sale a lot. Whats the deal with that? please don't violate any site rules tx

[Bogart]

"Down Under" if your solar powered house catches fire, the fire brigade will let it burn until a qualified electrician is on site to disconnect it!

Not necessarily, my system has a cut off on the side of the house next to the power meter. It's code here and required.

[Bogart]

I have followed this with great interest. I would love to go off grid. I would like it if some of you who have gone off grid might post links, contacts, user groups, sales peolpe, companies etc that I can really school up. Is there a "used equipment" site? I see used stuff for sale a lot. Whats the deal with that? please don't violate any site rules tx

I used a site called energy sage, they are not a seller they get some basic information from you to get an idea of what you want and or need and then I had three quotes from reputable companies to look into and choose from.
Not really high pitched sales calls, you contact them and proceed with the process.
They also have plenty of information on their site.

As for cost we paid just over 35k for 5k of panels and 10 kw of batteries, fully installed. Yes we got a $1000 rebate from the state and 5k fed tax break but that didn't play role in my decision, and if that makes me a bad person as some on here state so be it. I see that as finally getting back some of my hard earned tax dollars.

While saving money definitely played a role in my decision to get it my major factor is self sufficiency, I have only had to pay the electric bill one month and that was only $8.00. November will be 2 full years and so far we figure right around $2800 saved , electric bill plus electric company buys our excess, plus SERC's , for every Kw we make we get a solar credit. We sell our solar credits to a place that resells them to others, think carbon credits.

I'm 57 and am in my forever home so this system has a 25 year guarantee, and then it only looses a small percentage of output. If all works out for me I'll be well into my 80's or 90's before the system dies and it should pay for itself in 10 or 11 years. So no electric bill when I'm to old to work.

Solar may not be for everyone but so far it's working out for me.
I'm m no greenie either, just a hard working conservative American who believes in live and let live.
Shine on

[MaryB]

I added solar to keep a few things going during the MANY power outages I see every year. Got tired of trying to start a generator when it was -20f and a snowstorm! MPPT charge controllers let me bring in higher voltage DC(85 ish volts in my case) and use thinner copper for the 90' run. Added more panels, a second charge controller, a second inverter and now parts of my house run off grid until battery voltage reaches a preset cut off. Then those appliances drop back on grid. I use a 24 to 12 volt converter to feed my ham radio gear and the 12 volt pellet stove for heat. Well worth it in my book to not have to fight a generator that does NOT want to start in deep cold. Just 2400 watts of panels and a 400 amp hour battery bank(9.6kwh). Saves me about 30% off my electric bill, no dealing with regulators because it is off grid other than a switch between grid and solar for 3 circuits in the house. Been adding some 24 volt LED lighting in some rooms so I have lights during outages.

[redneck1]

Forgive the drift ... but I read these threads and see what some here have for power bills and I'm shocked .

My highest power bill ever was in August , the a.c. was on in both the house and shop for the entire month , My milling machine with a 15 hp motor ran an average of 10 hours a day with countless stop / start cycles along with a 7 hp air compressor and air dryer .

My bill was $380.

I do understand that those who live in democrat controlled paradise pay a higher rate then I do here in rural Ohio but dang if I was running just a house and had a bill that high every month I'd consider a lifestyle change and move somewhere more friendly to my wallet .

No offense meant ....

[rancher1913]

out here the problem is distance, you have miles and miles of poles between houses.

[Froogal]

I guess, what I am saying is.
If you are getting government subsidies for installing wind and solar, I hope you lose your shirt.

I agree 100%. Solar might be feasible as an emergency backup, but unless you go whole hog and go off-grid, it will never pay for itself.

Wind turbines are not reliable and require MUCH maintenance. Many of them need total blade replacement after just two years. I predict the wind farms will never be decommissioned, they will simply be abandoned.

[snowwolfe]

Don't solar panels lose efficiency every year?

[BLAHUT]

I live in Arizona, we paid a solar company to install the system, in 5 years it will have paid for itself, we are happy with it.
the best rate of return is if you purchase the system outright. We have friends that are leasing their setups, they are not happy because they just traded electric payments for the lease payments, no cost savings at all.

Our system has micro inverters on each panel, seems to be a better way to go, than one large inverter.
The down side is that if the power goes out, the solar panels quit givings us electricity. Do not want to back feed the grid and cause problems for the repair people.

Good luck with your decision.

There are automatic isolation switches you can install so there should be no feedback.

[gc45]

Don't solar panels lose efficiency every year?

Yes they do depreciate over time.
Being an electrical Engineer am often asked to help with solar design systems, I have minimal use for solar in my own home; other than some solar panels we use for lighting outside.
A good quality 5000 watt generator goes a long way in providing enough house Kilowatts until power is restored and what we do. When building our log home we installed propane for the furnace, cook top and generator that operates a few lights, refrig, well pump and several outlets. Also have a woodstove for heat but run the gas furnace if needing to off the generator. The Wife and I raised our family this way and both of us still living the dream without spending another dime for any equipment, repairs etc. unlike solar will cost you. Solar can be a good supplement for some, maybe not so much for others, it is about lifestyles and needs, also money and how much one can afford. Solar is not for everyone regardless of what we read..Solar and batt cars go hand in hand; if you have enough money to waste go for it. Some can get by with minimal power and minimal solar expense, they live in South Texas, Calif, Arizona or similar places, most though can't.

[Handloader109]

I used a site called energy sage, they are not a seller they get some basic information from you to get an idea of what you want and or need and then I had three quotes from reputable companies to look into and choose from.
Not really high pitched sales calls, you contact them and proceed with the process.
They also have plenty of information on their site.

As for cost we paid just over 35k for 5k of panels and 10 kw of batteries, fully installed. Yes we got a $1000 rebate from the state and 5k fed tax break but that didn't play role in my decision, and if that makes me a bad person as some on here state so be it. I see that as finally getting back some of my hard earned tax dollars.

While saving money definitely played a role in my decision to get it my major factor is self sufficiency, I have only had to pay the electric bill one month and that was only $8.00. November will be 2 full years and so far we figure right around $2800 saved , electric bill plus electric company buys our excess, plus SERC's , for every Kw we make we get a solar credit. We sell our solar credits to a place that resells them to others, think carbon credits.

I'm 57 and am in my forever home so this system has a 25 year guarantee, and then it only looses a small percentage of output. If all works out for me I'll be well into my 80's or 90's before the system dies and it should pay for itself in 10 or 11 years. So no electric bill when I'm to old to work.

Solar may not be for everyone but so far it's working out for me.
I'm m no greenie either, just a hard working conservative American who believes in live and let live.
Shine onYour numbers seem to be in line with most I've seen, but your payback of 29k (35k-6k credits) is 20 years at 1400 per year. That is unless you are getting another 1400 per year in credits. And that ignores time value of the money you paid.

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[bedbugbilly]

Worth it? Simple answer is "yes" - especially if you are a politician who "just happens" to own stock in foreign or a few domestic company that "just happens" to make solar power items or make batteries - especially Chin companies that can k which are actually paid for courtesy of the American eep a low overhead by utilizing slave labor - not to mention the "free" government subsidies and "tax credits" - courtesy of the American Taxpayers. Me? I'd much prefer to use natural gas piped directly to a standby generator - something we have plenty of in this country and which would run a generator rain or shine, night or day - which is now unacceptable by those who push the solar power to fill their pockets. For those that use and want to use solar power - more power to you as that's your right. I have bo doubt though, that once enough people are hooked on it - the government will figure out a way to tax sunshine to generate more "free money".

[Bogart]

"Down Under" if your solar powered house catches fire, the fire brigade will let it burn until a qualified electrician is on site to disconnect it!


Your numbers seem to be in line with most I've seen, but your payback of 29k (35k-6k credits) is 20 years at 1400 per year. That is unless you are getting another 1400 per year in credits. And that ignores time value of the money you paid.

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My math may have been wrong, but as I said self sufficiency is my main goal. I don't take multi thousand dollars cruses or extravagant vacations like a lot of my coworkers. The wife and I live modestly and save most of our pay. I want and am planning a decent and comfortable retirement / non working years. Hopefully at 63 or 64. Probably just a part time gig doing something I would enjoy. Also my system is 100% paid off. I owe nothing to anyone, except the privilege of property taxes. If I fail to give the local government their vig I'm screwed.

[abunaitoo]

We have sun all year round.
Also one of the highest electric cost in the nation.
Can you say monopoly???
So for us it's worth it.
But it takes a year to get it approved, plus probably the highest prices in the nation.
I was hoping to get one this year, but hopefully next year.

[rancher1913]

My math may have been wrong, but as I said self sufficiency is my main goal. I don't take multi thousand dollars cruses or extravagant vacations like a lot of my coworkers. The wife and I live modestly and save most of our pay. I want and am planning a decent and comfortable retirement / non working years. Hopefully at 63 or 64. Probably just a part time gig doing something I would enjoy. Also my system is 100% paid off. I owe nothing to anyone, except the privilege of property taxes. If I fail to give the local government their vig I'm screwed.

wish there was a like button. thats my goal as well

[snowwolfe]

I used a site called energy sage, they are not a seller they get some basic information from you to get an idea of what you want and or need and then I had three quotes from reputable companies to look into and choose from.
Not really high pitched sales calls, you contact them and proceed with the process.
They also have plenty of information on their site.

As for cost we paid just over 35k for 5k of panels and 10 kw of batteries, fully installed. Yes we got a $1000 rebate from the state and 5k fed tax break but that didn't play role in my decision, and if that makes me a bad person as some on here state so be it. I see that as finally getting back some of my hard earned tax dollars.

While saving money definitely played a role in my decision to get it my major factor is self sufficiency, I have only had to pay the electric bill one month and that was only $8.00. November will be 2 full years and so far we figure right around $2800 saved , electric bill plus electric company buys our excess, plus SERC's , for every Kw we make we get a solar credit. We sell our solar credits to a place that resells them to others, think carbon credits.

I'm 57 and am in my forever home so this system has a 25 year guarantee, and then it only looses a small percentage of output. If all works out for me I'll be well into my 80's or 90's before the system dies and it should pay for itself in 10 or 11 years. So no electric bill when I'm to old to work.

Solar may not be for everyone but so far it's working out for me.
I'm m no greenie either, just a hard working conservative American who believes in live and let live.
Shine on

What was your average electric bill before the install?
What is your 25 year guarantee? Do they promise the system will operate at the same rate it did when it was new?

[Idz]

I believe in multiple sources of energy. My unanswered question about solar and wind is what happens to these commercial gigantic 'antenna' arrays in the event of manmade or natural EMP events. I suspect they would be fried. You can protect a relatively small fossil fuel plant but something spread over thousands of acres would be difficult if not impossible.

[clearwater]

The newest micro controllers run even if the grid is down. There is a great big shutoff lever outside for the firemen. If not mistaken there is a 26% Fed tax credit at this time and some states don't charge sales tax. Our power company is asking for rate increases, again, but even greater increases for natural gas. In this part of the country at this time houses with solar are selling at rates that give a return on investment. If you think electricity prices will go up, it may be worth the gamble/investment. There are some interesting new batteries using iron oxide etc. that may be cheaper and safer.

[clearwater]

Here is some information from one company

https://enphase.com/energy-101?utm_source=Homeowner+Welcome+Drip+Campaign+01+-+Welcome&utm_medium=email&utm_content=41333

[MaryB]

I believe in multiple sources of energy. My unanswered question about solar and wind is what happens to these commercial gigantic 'antenna' arrays in the event of manmade or natural EMP events. I suspect they would be fried. You can protect a relatively small fossil fuel plant but something spread over thousands of acres would be difficult if not impossible.

The panels will probably survive and still have some output. The charge controller will likely get fried unless surge protection is used that is EMP rated. That requires some working knowledge of the subject. Wires are antennas so all connections need to be as short as possible and made with shielded cable.

[jonp]

Our electric bill is under $100 with summer around $50. Cost is not the reason imho to get solar. Its to divorce yourself from the grid and have backup in case of trouble

[elmacgyver0]

Our electric bill is under $100 with summer around $50. Cost is not the reason imho to get solar. Its to divorce yourself from the grid and have backup in case of trouble

Wow, do you live in a hut?
You are practically off the grid right now.

[missionary5155]

We have 300+ sunny days down here in S. Peru up in the Andes at 8000 ft. We have had 2 Solar water heaters in our home right at 30 years now.
When the sun shines we have a 30 gallon holding tank with 2 sun collectors that generates plenty of very hot water for 2 showers and all the dishes we need washed daily with still more ready.
Both the solar systems paid for themselves in one year so we have lived 28 years with free hot water. No freezing here until you get to 10,000 ft.

[Handloader109]

My math may have been wrong, but as I said self sufficiency is my main goal. I don't take multi thousand dollars cruses or extravagant vacations like a lot of my coworkers. The wife and I live modestly and save most of our pay. I want and am planning a decent and comfortable retirement / non working years. Hopefully at 63 or 64. Probably just a part time gig doing something I would enjoy. Also my system is 100% paid off. I owe nothing to anyone, except the privilege of property taxes. If I fail to give the local government their vig I'm screwed.Sorry. Not trying to ding you, just noting payback was off. I've been looking too. I keep get something like 15 or so years. But I think that I underestimate what power will cost in 3, 5 or even 10 years. It most probably will double in cost and payback will be the least of most of our worries. I'm gonna look a bit more but might get a system myself

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[uscra112]

A close friend is an engineer who has looked hard at solar. He believes that the only payback long term is through subsidies and if the cost to run electricity is over $15,000.


That's it in a nutshell. If you believe in ripping everybody else off for your own selfish benefit, go for it.

n.b. Indianapolis isn't an optimal climate for solar.

n.b. having some sort of backup is becoming more important as the win/solar lobby further destabilizes the grid. The book is "Shorting the Grid" by Meredith Angwin. Mine is a gasoline generator, since I have to maintain refrigeration for my medical supplies. Two family members who are less mechanical than I am have installed nat-gas generators.

[rancher1913]

Our electric bill is under $100 with summer around $50. Cost is not the reason imho to get solar. Its to divorce yourself from the grid and have backup in case of trouble

consider your self lucky, its a hundred bucks just for the right to use electricity here, your actual usage is on top of that, they call it a facility charge and it "allows" you to have a meter, you pay it every month even with the main breaker off all month.

[Mal Paso]

Don't solar panels lose efficiency every year?

Not much, maybe 10% over 25 years, most have warranties. I have 40 year old panels still working.

Batteries have a shorter life.

Off grid Solar makes sense when a single power pole is $60,000 or more. No solar credits for off grid though, always thought that unfair.

Grid Tied will always be subject to politics. The big utility here is spending big bucks to reduce payments to homeowners.

[snowwolfe]

Our electric bill is under $100 with summer around $50. Cost is not the reason imho to get solar. Its to divorce yourself from the grid and have backup in case of trouble

Then buy a back up generator. Heck of a lot cheaper than solar panels

[uscra112]

Grid Tied is another ripoff for consumers. Utilities are forced to buy their power AT RETAIL, leaving no margin for service and maintenance, so the rates for everyone else go up.

Also further destabilizes the grid.

[M-Tecs]

Grid Tied is another ripoff for consumers. Utilities are forced to buy their power AT RETAIL, leaving no margin for service and maintenance, so the rates for everyone else go up.

Also further destabilizes the grid.

Yup that's why California transmission lines are in the sad state they are.

[rancher1913]

Grid Tied is another ripoff for consumers. Utilities are forced to buy their power AT RETAIL, leaving no margin for service and maintenance, so the rates for everyone else go up.

Also further destabilizes the grid.

you really need to do some research. power companies buy the grid tie system energy at a fraction of the going rate, here its like a quarter of what they pay the generating utility. having alternate supplies to the grid does not destabilize it, it actually helps stabilize it during peak times which usually happen when the sun is out. your anti solar agenda is showing. and as for subsidies, only the big boys get those. i dont know about your area but around here electric rates just keep jumping and im sick of being forced to pay at gun point. generators are nice but can you really run them 24/7, during a grid down event the hoodlums' are going to hoodlum and anybody with a noisy generator running 24/7 will attract attention.

[dverna]

Then buy a back up generator. Heck of a lot cheaper than solar panels

This is what I did. In fact, I have two generators, so I have back up for my back up. But my electrical costs are cheap so no way solar makes economic sense. If I was paying north of $400/mo for power, it would makes sense to go solar.

[TurnipEaterDown]

...power companies buy the grid tie system energy at a fraction of the going rate, here its like a quarter of what they pay the generating utility. ... as for subsidies, only the big boys get those.

I think a lot of this depends on state / government regulatory action. In Michigan you can (could) get kick back to install solar panels, and if I remember right the Fed Gov also gave tax credits to do so. The power companies here are also Forced (by law) to buy your excess power. What rate, I never checked (not in my benefit at this time).
I believe that these type of things are the basis of the 'subsidy' remark. Yes, they exist, and yes the kick back comes from tax payments from others. There can be a benefit to the individual, there is a detriment to the aggregate.

I always ask myself this: When making a choice on something like this, what do businesses that create such a product use? They aren't in the habit to throw money away. Yes, in their case there may be large costs associated with facility change over, but facilities do get write downs on taxes and have expected life times. If solar was a really great deal w/o governmental action (regulatory, subsidy, etc.) then we would have had the change over years ago. Chinese manufacturing did not invent the solar panel, it's been around a long time, and rarely commercialized. There is a reason for that.

It's like the electric car: if they were so fantastic, why weren't they the main product in the last 100 years? We had electric vehicles in the 19-teens, and ther has been market growth that would have made investments in manufacturing for electric vehicle "bits" attractive. And yet, just now the wonder child.
Many times viability does change w/ technology, and there has been advancements in technology & manufacturing base that have dropped the levelized cost of solar & wind generation. However, those market & technology advancements have not been stagnant on power generation from sources like Nat Gas either. Overall it still is a bad buy to get power from wind & solar. It is just government market interference that slews cost benefit analysis. Government action alters the market. In the case of solar, there may be benefit to the individual, and there is detriment to the aggregate.

Doesn't mean the individual is dumb to take advantage of a regulatory environment that skews cost benefit analysis to an artificial state, but it isn't wrong to color the whole thing as an exercise in inefficiency either.

I used to ask a co-worker if he enjoyed his free gas from me for his car. It was electric. He plugged it in for "free" at work. He looked at me in a puzzled manner and reminded me it was electric (we were good friends). I explained that our company got tax credits for putting in charge stations. I pay into taxes, some of that came from me. I also said that he was pretty smart to see the opportunity to get someone else to pay for his gas... (We are still good friends.)

[uscra112]

you really need to do some research. power companies buy the grid tie system energy at a fraction of the going rate, here its like a quarter of what they pay the generating utility. having alternate supplies to the grid does not destabilize it, it actually helps stabilize it during peak times which usually happen when the sun is out. your anti solar agenda is showing. and as for subsidies, only the big boys get those. i dont know about your area but around here electric rates just keep jumping and im sick of being forced to pay at gun point. generators are nice but can you really run them 24/7, during a grid down event the hoodlums' are going to hoodlum and anybody with a noisy generator running 24/7 will attract attention.

YOU do your research. Start by reading "Shorting the Grid". I did. Angwin is a long-time power industry insider, she knows only too well of what she speaks. Not some recent graduate with a degree in environmental advocacy, nor a solar industry shill. Another very worthwhile book is "Thorium, Energy Cheaper Than Coal". While he is advocating for nuclear, he runs through the economics of all forms of power generation technology in painstaking detail. Wind/solar prove to be pathetically poor choices.

If, in your area, the purchase rate for a Grid Tie is less than retail, then some sanity has been applied. That is an exception, not the rule. It is also a simple fact that wind/solar mandates are a main cause of consumer rate increases.

I stand by the statement that wind/solar (and Grid Tie) are destabilizing the grid. Every megawatt of wind/solar has to be backed up with 1.4 megawatts of rapidly dispatchable gas turbines or hydro, because wind/solar can and do drop off so suddenly when weather conditions change. But places like California and the Northeast have the wild idea that they can prohibit gas plants and pipelines, and are dismantling hydro dams to save insignificant fishies.

Again, read those books and get back to us.

[abunaitoo]

I've had a solar water heater for a long time.
It cut down on electricity use a bunch.
I have the water heater on a timer, so it almost never comes on.
Hope to do the roof soon, so going to change it at the sametime.

[MaryB]

Grid Tied is another ripoff for consumers. Utilities are forced to buy their power AT RETAIL, leaving no margin for service and maintenance, so the rates for everyone else go up.

Also further destabilizes the grid.

Buyback amount varies by state/company, there is no national law on it. MN is retail, some states pay nothing! And they only pay the retail for the electricity, the part of you bill that is fees will jump up with solar because they charge for the privilege!

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/USA-net-metering-MAP-2022-1000x705.jpg

[Handloader109]

At one point not too long ago, CA was paying close to double retail price for buy back generation. They have changed, and yes in a lot of places, any fees or connection charges do not get reduced or eliminated. One local solar ripoff installer advertises $15 a month bill. Is an out and out lie as the minimum connection charge is right at $25 and that is with zero usage. Daughter paid that for several months last year when the installed her meter early. Our coop gives credit and if you generate more than you use for a long term, they will cash it out to you once a year.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[elmacgyver0]

The power companies are like any other company, they are in business to sell a product, in their case electricity.
They do not need or want your power, the only time you are selling it to them is when you don't need it.
When you don't need it, they don't either.
The power companies have to base their capacity on worst case scenarios.
If the power companies had their way, they wouldn't buy a dime worth of your power because they don't need it.
All it does is cause them problems.
If you have solar, more power to you, store the excess for when the sun isn't shining.
Go off the grid completely.

[Bogart]

1) $95 / $110 depending on time of year (Edit to say my electric rate has gone up considerably not sure how much but somewhere around 50%
2) Don't quite remember but something like 95% minimum, if I get a chance I'll pull out the paperwork and get back to you on this one
From my quote "Solar modules carry a standard 25-30 year production warranty and a solar electric system that is designed, installed, and maintained properly can last more than 40 years."
3) Supposed to still work but loose a small percentage of output 2 to 3% a year after 25 years if I remember right

[Agent1187]

I'm in central WI, and the only way I could make solar a financially viable proposition was to install it myself.

So 3.5 years ago I put up an 8kw ground mount system for $9k out of pocket (and received $3k back as a Federal tax credit).

I generally generate and use 10-11,000 kwhr/year. My utility net-metering agreement is monthly, so excess generation is credited at wholesale power rates or I pay for my net power usage. Generally I get ~$5-10 credit toward my $25 connection fee 8 months, break even 2 months, and use $40-60 of power during each of the 2 deep winter months. On a simple math basis, I am looking at a 5-6 year break-even.

This is strictly grid-tie, and I do have an 8kw propane generator for the well and other basics during an outage. Way more affordable than a battery system.

[clearwater]

Local power company sells at retail and buys solar from customers at wholesale. During some of the high demand times, think summer afternoons with lots of air conditioner use, the solar produced by customers helps all.

Cars with batteries can be a backup for households too. A charged Tesla can power a house for a couple of days and still have some juice for a trip. My opinion of Tesla is not high, but it is an example of possibilities. If you want to be part of a smart grid, micro or otherwise, the car battery can be a buffer and storage device for all.

Dams- you can use it for power and keep it full or use it for flood control and keep it empty. Or some of both. Many dams, including those considered for removal, are at the end of their designed lifespan and there are no plans to replace them. It is really a kind of infrastructure everyone should be able to get behind but is receiving no attention.

Nuclear- they are still arguing about where to put the waste. Their best solution (which hasn't been implemented since it is not so great) is to irretrievably bury it underground, near a large city's water supply. And get it there by train, exposed to accident and sabotage.

Seems like electricity storage is a key to all this. Perhaps hydrogen?

[uscra112]

Except in the Southwest, the highest demand times turn out to be in winter, not summer. The ERCOT blackout a couple of years ago was partly due to the large number of heat pumps used in Texas. As the temperature dropped, the heat pumps all switched on their resistance coils when the ambient went too low for them to function. On top of the windmills dropping out due to the weather. Gas delivery to the gas turbine plants was also interrupted. One major bit of regulatory craziness is that the EPA has forced gas suppliers to run the pipeline booster compressors electrically. Used to be that they were driven by big IC engines that burned gas siphoned from the line, so they didn't shut down in a blackout.

Nuclear could be almost waste-free if Molten-Salt Thorium Reactors replaced the pressurized-water reactors we have today. MSTRs essentially burn their own waste. This technology is a generation old - not having implemented it ten years ago is criminal, IMHO.

Heinlein postulated an extremely energy-dense storage device called a "Shipstone", but nobody's even hit 1% of his fantasy with battery technology, so far. I don't think anybody ever will.

A handy and economical way of using hydrogen is to bind a few hydrogen atoms to a lesser number of carbon atoms. It's popularly called gasoline. Natural gas is CH4, so it works well too.

[clearwater]

[QUOTE

A handy and economical way of using hydrogen is to bind a few hydrogen atoms to a lesser number of carbon atoms. It's popularly called gasoline. Natural gas is CH4, so it works well too.[/QUOTE]

Good one.

I know hydrogen can be made by stripping it from natural gas or propane and also by using electricity and water, but can those processes by reversed? Can you make gasoline or natural gas from hydrogen?

[uscra112]

https://www.amazon.com/THORIUM-energy-cheaper-than-coal/dp/1478161299/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=thorium+cheaper+coal&qid=1665607148&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIxLjQyIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjA uMDAifQ%3D%3D&sr=8-1

He goes through all of this is some detail, but in layman's language.

Pure hydrogen is difficult and dangerous to handle. To store useful amounts for vehicles it has to be under very high pressure, which requires a heavy container, and a robust pressure regulator. Weight penalty as bad or worse than the EV batteries used now. With the added risk of leaks.

[clearwater]

Energy companies are looking at hydrogen as a way to store and transport power from solar, wind and other sites. I have been told it can even be sent thru the same pipelines cross country as the current petroleum products.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/renewable-hydrogen-can-travel-through-existing-pipelines-ceo-says-.html
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-pipelines

Here it looks like Glassification will finally be attempted as a method for dealing with nuclear waste.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2022/oct/09/no-turning-back-worlds-largest-radioactive-waste-m/

[Texas by God]

Will solar panels stand up to large hail?
We get a lot of that.
The ugly, "ruin the horizon view" wind generators have reduced my electricity bill exactly 0% since T. Boone Pickens and others pushed them on us and others.
My electricity bill averages $400-$500 a month in the summer( April- October).

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[uscra112]

Under the Byzantine rules initiated in the '90s to control the electricity markets, wind generators sometimes derive as little as 2% of their revenue from actually selling electricity to the grid operators. The rest is direct subsidies, and indirect subsidies paid by grid operators, (and therefor by you, the consumer). Angwin has the details in her book.

[lancem]

Will solar panels stand up to large hail?
We get a lot of that.
The ugly, "ruin the horizon view" wind generators have reduced my electricity bill exactly 0% since T. Boone Pickens and others pushed them on us and others.
My electricity bill averages $400-$500 a month in the summer( April- October).

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

I have one panel that was hit years ago and the glass is shattered but the panel still works. I have seen some that have had holes blasted in them from hail. Where I'm at hail storms typically come from the north, with the panels facing south I think they tend to miss taking direct hits.

[MaryB]

My solar panels have survived 1" hail that was being driven by 60mph winds... shattered 2 house windows in that storm...

Hydrogen embrittlement of metal is the issue, it actually bonds with the metal and changes its composition...

[jonp]

My solar panels have survived 1" hail that was being driven by 60mph winds... shattered 2 house windows in that storm...

Hydrogen embrittlement of metal is the issue, it actually bonds with the metal and changes its composition...

Theory is nice but real world experience like this is invaluable. Thanks, MaryB

If the cost of burying lines to a house is even close to solar then solar it is. Off grid is always better in my book.

[fixit]

All of the pie in the sky promises of "renewable" energy are, currently, based on heavy subsidies, paid for by heavy taxation! As I've said before, if it needs a subsidy to be viable, it isn't. If it can stand without one, then run with it!

[rancher1913]

so where are all these "subsidies" a couple of you want to get all po'd about, i sure never got any with my system or are you just painting with a broad brush.

[uscra112]

If you didn't get yours, you missed the boat.

Or maybe not.....

https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/homeowners-guide-federal-tax-credit-solar-photovoltaics

[uscra112]

Hydrogen embrittlement of metal is the issue, it actually bonds with the metal and changes its composition...

I know about hydrogen embrittlement (Strength of Materials 101) but I'm wondering where it comes into play in this context.

[MaryB]

I know about hydrogen embrittlement (Strength of Materials 101) but I'm wondering where it comes into play in this context.

Hit the extent of my knowledge on that, need a metallurgist to explain why. I have read stories saying that is the problem with hydrogen... There is a new form of storage where they bod the hydrogen with another material and release it via a chemical process. While bonded it is non-explosive and much safer to handle.I didn't deep dive into that because it is new tech not currently on the market.

[1hole]

All of the pie in the sky promises of "renewable" energy are, currently, based on heavy subsidies, paid for by heavy taxation! As I've said before, if it needs a subsidy to be viable, it isn't. If it can stand without one, then run with it!

At least some power companies get their tax subsidies directly from the government, no customer attention is required.

"Free" electrical power ain't cheep. The value of the best of cell fields and wind farms depends on the population density; few city/town dwellers have anywhere near the required acres to collect any significant "renewable" battery powered electricity.

Like in electric cars, good but exotic batteries are costly and they have limited service life if they are used often or not. Gathering large enough battery banks (and charging systems) to make any real difference in operational use and real costs requires both safe storage space and frequent maintainance. And the batteries themselves aren't environmentally "clean" to make or maintain either but greeny-weinies and their pollyticians don't know that.

Windmills suffer from wind damage, they have very limited life and their mechanical systems demand quite a bit of individual and costly maintinance to achieve that.

Solar cells are very susceptable to a serious loss of efficiency due to surface dirt/dust/bird droppings. The labor costs of keeping the face of the cells clean is high.

But, other than that, IMO, tax subsidized free electrical power is a real deal every time ... for the sellers.

For the last 25 years my own fall back electrical system has been a portable 2KW Honda generator, a long extension cord and a 5 gallon bucket of fresh gasoline. It has earned my trust; it starts easy, it's long been paid for and has never failed me even when our power outage ran a couple of dark, stormy weeks.

My red generator, a gas cook stove and a set of LP gas logs in the fireplace, along with a good book and a couple of good coats/thick socks and some snuggles with a friendly woman, make occasional extended winter power outages survivable.

To each his own but I know more than a little bit about electricity. There's NO WAY I'd even try currently popular "renewable" electric power systems in hopes of saving money at home!

[uscra112]

@MaryB: I thought you were talking about hydrogen embrittlement in solar systems.

We have had a hydrogen transport liquid which is hydrogen bonded to another material (carbon) for over 100 years. It's popularly known as gasoline.

[45_Colt]

There is also NH3...

45_Colt

[uscra112]

And CH4

[MaryB]

@MaryB: I thought you were talking about hydrogen embrittlement in solar systems.

We have had a hydrogen transport liquid which is hydrogen bonded to another material (carbon) for over 100 years. It's popularly known as gasoline.

The one I read about is a solid! Non flammable!