Any issues with Special loads in Magnum cases?

[billmc2]

Because I don't have enough experience to know. In my particular case I'm wondering about putting a 32 S&W Long powder charge into a 32 H&R Mag case. In general, the same thing for 38 and 357 or 44 Special and 44 Mag.

I don't know if this is correct but I'd guess the extra volume in a Mag case could reduce the pressure of the "Special" charge. If I'm wrong here, please correct me. It is this kind of info that I'm wondering about.

As for a reason to do this, I'm thinking I could get away with buying only one type of case and still shoot the softer charge. At this point I'm only dealing with published loads and not developing any on my own.

[Targa]

Yes you can run, powders like Unique, Universal, Win231/HP38, Accurate#5 and #7, HS6 and many more work really well in doing just that. For example, my 44mag revolvers have never seen a .44spl round in them but they have seen plenty of .44spl equivalent loads in .44mag brass. I do shoot quite a bit of .38spl out of my .357 revolver simply because I picked up a bunch of brass from Starline when it was finally available during the pathetic panic over the last couple of years.

[rkrcpa]

Because I don't have enough experience to know.

There is quite a bit of nuance to the answer to your question and without sufficient experience it is quite easy to get yourself in trouble.

Do you want a particular velocity level using a magnum case? That's no problem within the available data.

Do you want to use a reduced powder charge, not knowing what the resultant velocity will be? That can be a problem. Depending upon the particulars of your load it could be quite possible that you end up with a stuck bullet.

Minimum powder charges exist for a reason.

[Winger Ed.]

I only have .357s to worry about that.
What I do is load some to the minimum published levels for Magnum cases to practice a little with.
For really reduced loads, I just scrounge up the shorter .38Spec. brass and go from there.

I also go on the assumption that the folks who publish loading books know what they're doing,
and sort of let it go at that rather than try to re-invent the wheel, or get off into uncharted waters..

[Larry Gibson]

Every powder will have a minimal pressure it burns efficiently at. There are variables that influence that such as case volume, primer, bullet weight, etc. With the 32 S&WL loads and the 32 H&R loads you'll notice there is an overlap between max loads in the S&WL and the start loads in the H&R, particularly with the faster burning powders. Thus, using the 'start" loads for the H&R is actually like using the top end S&WL loads. Quite safe to do.

For example, having measured the pressures of both cartridges, I find it takes .2 to .3 gr more Bullseye in the H&R case than in the S&WL case to equal the same psi given the same bullet, usually the TL314-90-SWC.

[JoeJames]

Every powder will have a minimal pressure it burns efficiently at. There are variables that influence that such as case volume, primer, bullet weight, etc. With the 32 S&WL loads and the 32 H&R loads you'll notice there is an overlap between max loads in the S&WL and the start loads in the H&R, particularly with the faster burning powders. Thus, using the 'start" loads for the H&R is actually like using the top end S&WL loads. Quite safe to do.

For example, having measured the pressures of both cartridges, I find it takes .2 to .3 gr more Bullseye in the H&R case than in the S&WL case to equal the same psi given the same bullet, usually the TL314-90-SWC.I have done about the same with 44 Magnum. I have a Rossi 92 that will not feed 44 Specials. I mostly load and am quite used to 44 Specials - my pet load is 6.8 grains of Unique with a .430 240 grain home cast TL SWC. So I figured the case was what 5% larger in capacity than a 44 Special; so I loaded my 44 Magnum cases with 7 grains of Unique (roughly a 5% powder increase) and the same bullet , and came up with a nice comfortable accurate load running about 1050 fps in the Rossi. BTW the Rossi weighs 5 pounds and is certainly not comfortable with full power pedal to the metal 44 Magnum loads.

[mdi]

BTDT for many hundreds of rounds (thousands?) in 38 Spec./357 Mag. and 44 Spec./44Mag., 99% of the time with cast bullets. The main consideration is the listed Special loads in Magnum cases will be much slower than manual results. Light Special loads in Magnum brass could possibly result in bullets not exiting the barrel. Never used a "formula" and if I needed velocity numbers I just shot them over my chrony...

[JoeJames]

BTDT for many hundreds of rounds (thousands?) in 38 Spec./357 Mag. and 44 Spec./44Mag., 99% of the time with cast bullets. The main consideration is the listed Special loads in Magnum cases will be much slower than manual results. Light Special loads in Magnum brass could possibly result in bullets not exiting the barrel. Never used a "formula" and if I needed velocity numbers I just shot them over my chrony... True. I checked my 44 Special - 44 Magnum loads with my chronograph.

[44MAG#1]

No one wants to hear my opinions so take this as you will.
When I load my 44 Mag with 44 Special loads I use Magnum brass and deep seat the bullet to 44 Special OAL. Same thing in 357 Mag using 38 Special loads. Works very well but foreign to what most do so the skepticism and disdain to what I say.

[billmc2]

For an interesting tidbit of information, please get several reloading data books. The lee one is good, and get the alliant 2009.

I do have several reloading manuals including Lee and Lyman. I do not have the Alliant book, so I'll need to look that one up.


There is quite a bit of nuance to the answer to your question and without sufficient experience it is quite easy to get yourself in trouble.

Do you want a particular velocity level using a magnum case? That's no problem within the available data.

Do you want to use a reduced powder charge, not knowing what the resultant velocity will be? That can be a problem. Depending upon the particulars of your load it could be quite possible that you end up with a stuck bullet.

Minimum powder charges exist for a reason.

I'm trying to keep myself from getting into trouble, that's why I'm asking the questions. I only started handloading this year. The more I learn, I begin to realize that I'm just scratching the surface. I could be making a wrong assumption but I'm assuming that what is valid for one special/magnum load would work in the others as well (these generalities, that is).

I have read that in a revolver, to much space between the bullet and forcing cone can lead to inaccuracies (do I understand that correctly?). So I figured that if I only used the magnum case I could eliminate that excess space. Thinking a little further, I remembered that setback would reduce the volume inside the case leading to increased pressure, so I figured the opposite would be true. Increased volume would reduce pressure. Aside from getting a bullet stuck in the bore, is there anything else that would be dangerous which I should know about before doing it?

I have just acquired a 44 Special revolver and have no interest in 44 Magnum. I do not have a rifle (yet) to go along with this. I have read that sometimes the leverguns have problems dealing with the shorter Special cases. The thought that comes to mind is "why not use the magnum case but only put a Special charge into it?".

It is questions like these that I have. I don't know what I don't know, so there could be questions I should be asking but don't know enough to ask them.

[jonp]

No one wants to hear my opinions so take this as you will.
When I load my 44 Mag with 44 Special loads I use Magnum brass and deep seat the bullet to 44 Special OAL. Same thing in 357 Mag using 38 Special loads. Works very well but foreign to what most do so the skepticism and disdain to what I say.

For some reason it has never occured to me to try that. Have you compared velocity over a chronograph?

[JoeJames]

I have been reloading off and on for about 40 years. I into serious reloading for the 44 Special just before I got a 44 Special Ruger Blackhawk about 8 years ago, when I noticed that 44 Special ammo was about $44 a box. I live in Arkansas and since we'uns are a bit short of Grizzly bears I felt that 44 Special was sufficient. One other thing about reduced loads in a big old case like the 45 Colt or the 44 Magnum other than having the bullet stuck is a small enough charge will become position sensitive as in for consistent accuracy you need to tilt the barrel up before you shoot. I had some 45 Colt loads where I'd tried using light loads of Win231 and I was getting strange velocities on my chronograph like say 450 fps. BTW if your revolver sounds funny when you shoot it - check the bore immediately - I had that happen when shooting a light charge with jacketed bullets. Sounded different so I glanced at the barrel and sure enough the bullet was perched flush with the end of the barrel like a groundhog.

[Kosh75287]

Putting a powder charge meant for .32 S&W Long in a .32 H&R case almost certainly not cause any safety concerns, but the results will likely be less than if fired in the shorter cartridge. Depending on the propellant, it may not burn as completely and be smoky when shooting it. The USUAL drill, when trying to duplicate lighter performance with larger cases, is to expect to increase the charge needed in the larger case.
When trying to duplicate the Keith-Skelton .44 Special load, 7.5/Unique/240-250 gr LSWC, in .44 Magnum cases, the charge weight runs like 7.9-8.3/Unique/240-250 gr. LSWC. In .44 Special cases, the first load gives 900-950 f/s from a 4" barrel (usually). If used in the larger .44 Special cases, the velocity drops to 800 - 900 f/s, in my experience. I'D expect similar behaviour in your .32 H&R cases.

[quilbilly]

I do that all the time. I load my 357 mag brass to 38sp+P loads which is a very pleasant and useful load. That load also performs very well in my 357 mag rifle accurate to at least 125 yards.

[414gates]

When I load my 44 Mag with 44 Special loads I use Magnum brass and deep seat the bullet to 44 Special OAL. Same thing in 357 Mag using 38 Special loads.

Perfect.

Keep away from reduced loads of fast burning ball powder in a magnum length case.

Stick exactly to the load data.

Reducing a powder charge below the minimum in the book is unsafe.

[44MAG#1]

For some reason it has never occured to me to try that. Have you compared velocity over a chronograph?
Yes I have. The data supports what I say within the tolerances of the individual firearm, lot of powder, lot of primers etc., etc.,.
M69 2.75 inch 255 "Keith" 872 fps. 4.25 inch M69 same bullet 938. Both 7.5 Unique and CCI 300.

[Kosh75287]

No one wants to hear my opinions so take this as you will. When I load my 44 Mag with 44 Special loads I use Magnum brass and deep seat the bullet to 44 Special OAL. Same thing in 357 Mag using 38 Special loads. Works very well but foreign to what most do so the skepticism and disdain to what I say.

I think I'm with many on here when I say that the thought of loading magnum cases to overall lengths of special rounds didn't occur to me, but it's a worthwhile idea. It would certainly seem to solve the "extra case capacity" problem with the longer case. You've given me something else to try out at the reloading bench!

[44MAG#1]

Perfect.

Keep away from reduced loads of fast burning ball powder in a magnum length case.

Stick exactly to the load data.

Reducing a powder charge below the minimum in the book is unsafe.
I have used HP-38/W231 with good results. But that is like a flattened ball.
Like Bullseye too for an easy recoil load.

[charlie b]

Been using .38spl loads in .357 brass for decades. Easy reason, I don't own a .38spl. I kept a bunch of nickel plated .357 brass that I use for full power loads. The plain .357 brass cases are loaded to upper end .38spl levels. That way I can tell which is which without needing to refer to a label.

And, yes, point of impact is different.

[Bazoo]

Billmc2, if you’re around me, I’m glad to offer mentorship for reloading or casting.

Don’t be afeard to ask questions here, we were all new once. And most of us are still learning.

[405grain]

billmc2: You can easily load the 32 H&R mag (and other cartridges) through a whole range of power and velocities. You didn't indicate what bullet you intend to use, but all bullets can be loaded within a range from low to high velocity and pressure. Your very best option here is to acquire a loading manual, which will explain to you how things work, and also suggest safe loads for you to make. 32 H&R loads are available from lots of sources, but two of the best reloading manuals that I've seen with 32 H&R cast load data are the "RCBS Cast Bullet Manual" and the "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition". I got my copy of the RCBS manual from Amazon, and the Lyman handbook is in print and available virtually everywhere. Like other magnum pistol cartridges: use fast or medium burning rate powders for milder loads, and slower burning powders for full power loads. Reading a reloading manual will answer more of your questions in a day than taking months (or even years) to try and figure out stuff on your own. Most reloading manuals are for jacketed bullet use, hence the two that I recommended which specialize on cast bullets. Also, the older 3rd edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is widely available as a pdf that can be downloaded for free off the internet from several sites.

[billmc2]

Billmc2, if you’re around me, I’m glad to offer mentorship for reloading or casting.

Don’t be afeard to ask questions here, we were all new once. And most of us are still learning.

I'm in the FL panhandle. If we were closer I'd gladly take you up on your offer.

[P Flados]

Much currently available load data from the powder makers is summarized at:
https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/32-hr-magnum/

For Alliant, the 2005 data booklet is frequently more useful than the current load data
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Vendor%20Supplied%20Load%20Data/Alliant%20Powder%20Reloaders%20Guide%20-%202005.pdf

For this specific application, I just recommend trying 32 H&R start loads. This is probably close enough to 32 Long loads to produce the result the Op asked for.

Note that in larger bores the difference between Special and Magnum is a lot bigger as is the difference between 32 Long and 327 Fed. Many folks with 327 Fed guns load down close to 32 H&R power levels to get the effect of using 38 Sp in a 357 Mag.

[billmc2]

billmc2: You can easily load the 32 H&R mag (and other cartridges) through a whole range of power and velocities. You didn't indicate what bullet you intend to use, but all bullets can be loaded within a range from low to high velocity and pressure. Your very best option here is to acquire a loading manual, which will explain to you how things work, and also suggest safe loads for you to make. 32 H&R loads are available from lots of sources, but two of the best reloading manuals that I've seen with 32 H&R cast load data are the "RCBS Cast Bullet Manual" and the "Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th edition". I got my copy of the RCBS manual from Amazon, and the Lyman handbook is in print and available virtually everywhere. Like other magnum pistol cartridges: use fast or medium burning rate powders for milder loads, and slower burning powders for full power loads. Reading a reloading manual will answer more of your questions in a day than taking months (or even years) to try and figure out stuff on your own. Most reloading manuals are for jacketed bullet use, hence the two that I recommended which specialize on cast bullets. Also, the older 3rd edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is widely available as a pdf that can be downloaded for free off the internet from several sites.

I wouldn't want to lie to you guys, so I just went and double checked. I currently have 8 different reloading manuals, one of which is the Lyman Cast Bullet manual, 4th Edition. On top of that I have read all of them. When I became aware of the RCBS book, I went looking for it but couldn't find one. I suppose if I keep checking one might pop up.

As for the bullet I'm using. I have an Arsenal Mold, in brass, for a 98 grain Keith Style semi-wadcutter. I've been using the data listed in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition for a 98 gr RCBS SWC. One thing I've found to be curious, for this bullet using Accurate No 5, Lyman has the exact same charges for both S&W Long and H&R 32 Mag, showing higher velocities for the 32 Mag. For the 32 S&W they used a 4 inch barrel on a S&W revolver while the 32 Mag used a 5 inch test barrel. I even wrote them and asked about it. They responded saying that what was published is correct but they'll double check it next time they are working on that load (they never mentioned when that would be).

I've been reading quite a bit before venturing forth. Sometimes I can't find the answers to the questions I generate from reading alone. The comments made by Larry Gibson, JoeJames and mdi touched on some of what I was asking.

No one asked but I am powder coating these bullets. Some where on this forum I thought I read that powder coated bullets will give higher velocities for the same powder charge than conventionally lubed bullets. I don't happen to recall which thread I read that in. I find as I'm getting older (now 63) the rememberer doesn't work as well as it used to.

[billmc2]

Much currently available load data from the powder makers is summarized at:
https://shootersreference.com/reloadingdata/32-hr-magnum/

For Alliant, the 2005 data booklet is frequently more useful than the current load data
http://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manuals/Reloading/Vendor%20Supplied%20Load%20Data/Alliant%20Powder%20Reloaders%20Guide%20-%202005.pdf

For this specific application, I just recommend trying 32 H&R start loads. This is probably close enough to 32 Long loads to produce the result the Op asked for.

Note that in larger bores the difference between Special and Magnum is a lot bigger as is the difference between 32 Long and 327 Fed. Many folks with 327 Fed guns load down close to 32 H&R power levels to get the effect of using 38 Sp in a 357 Mag.

Thank you for both of those. I bookmarked the webpage and downloaded the Alliant book.

[Green Frog]

No one wants to hear my opinions so take this as you will.
When I load my 44 Mag with 44 Special loads I use Magnum brass and deep seat the bullet to 44 Special OAL. Same thing in 357 Mag using 38 Special loads. Works very well but foreign to what most do so the skepticism and disdain to what I say.

In revolvers, this should work just about perfectly unless you run into a situation with throats and forcing cones. In repeating rifles however, you may run into a feeding problem unless there is enough bullet nose sticking out to ride the feed ramp properly.
As for hearing opinions on this forum, I would maintain that well tested data such as you are presenting here should be welcomed. I know I appreciate examples of “thinking outside of the box” so long it’s not some wild untested speculation. I thank you for bringing it to the table here. I have noticed that seating bullets too deeply with “normal” loads, can cause an undesirable pressure increase, so with too much space it makes perfect sense to carefully increase pressure as desired by deep seating the bullet.
Regards,
Froggie

[44MAG#1]

In revolvers, this should work just about perfectly unless you run into a situation with throats and forcing cones. In repeating rifles however, you may run into a feeding problem unless there is enough bullet nose sticking out to ride the feed ramp properly.
As for hearing opinions on this forum, I would maintain that well tested data such as you are presenting here should be welcomed. I know I appreciate examples of “thinking outside of the box” so long it’s not some wild untested speculation. I thank you for bringing it to the table here. I have noticed that seating bullets too deeply with “normal” loads, can cause an undesirable pressure increase, so with too much space it makes perfect sense to carefully increase pressure as desired by deep seating the bullet.
Regards,
Froggie

Testing???
I have shot Bullseye, Titegroup, Unique, PowerPistol and 2400 with the bullets deep seated. No problems. Remember they are shot in a 44 Magnum because they won't fit in a 44 Special which is benefit to those that own a Charter Arms 44 Special. Shoots as well as I can shoot with the rounds loaded to 44 Mag OAL with charge increase to give the same velocity as seated deep with lesser charge.
There will ALWAYS be those that will question ANYTHING. Ones who own one gun and shoots almost none to those that owns more firearms than the US Army and shoots more than the whole US Military and owns thousands of dollars of equipment. It is what it is and it isn't what it isn't.

[Soundguy]

I load 45 auto rim to .455 pressure for a shaved webley...

[charlie b]

I remember at least one mold back in the old days that had two crimp grooves. One for magnum cases and one for special. Same bullet, same case volume.

OTOH, when I want a .38spl load in the .357 case I just load it to the .357 oal and live with the extra empty space in the case. And, yes, the vel is slightly less than the book load says.

Just like cast in rifles, some powders do better with reduced loads than others. Just have to experiment with what you have.

[justindad]

No one wants to hear my opinions so take this as you will.
When I load my 44 Mag with 44 Special loads I use Magnum brass and deep seat the bullet to 44 Special OAL. Same thing in 357 Mag using 38 Special loads. Works very well but foreign to what most do so the skepticism and disdain to what I say.
This is basically what I do when loading NOE boolits where there is no load data. Case volume matters… a lot!

[Photog]

Perfect.

Keep away from reduced loads of fast burning ball powder in a magnum length case.

Stick exactly to the load data.

Reducing a powder charge below the minimum in the book is unsafe.

So much wrong here.

When you reduce your loads, use faster burning powder and use less powder as a general rule (both pistol and rifle).
Load data NEVER is useful at with reduced charges - including the Lee book that references reduced charges. That book has terrible load data. You will need to experiment with reduced charges and many factors affect performance -temperature, barrel length, boolit size and weight, powder used, cylinder gap, primer, etc.
Reduced loads require a good deal of knowledge of your firearm and handloading techniques, but is not "unsafe"; at least not more "unsafe" than handloading in general.
Some of us have been handloading reduced loads for DECADES, we learn by reading about success stories, old reloading books, old magazines, etc. and by trial and error.

For reduced 38/357 loads, go get some very fast (for caliber) powder, like bullseye, Tightgroup, red dot, clays, 700x. Crimp good. Use about 2.5 grains. You will get 500-600fps depending on your gun and boolit weight. (if you don't have a chronograph - don't go "off book" like this)
For your 32 cal reduced loads, go with the FASTEST powder available like Extra-Lite, Titewad, N310, Nirto100. Use 1.5 to 2 grains min and 3 grains max.

I regularly shoot 2.5 grain loads of Titegroup in 38 cases with 125 and 158gr boolits. I've gone down pretty low and slow using Alliant Extra-Lite, which is hard to find but very very fast. And just to fly in the face of convention even more, I shoot them in a 19" carbine. If they go 500fps in a 4" revolver, they go 650 in the carbine.
Yes you can get a bullet stuck in the barrel if you go too low, that in itself is not "unsafe".