SWC in 44 Magnum revolver, with right boolit still viable choice

[Onty]

We all in our lives at one moment, especially in retirement, making full circle in our views. When I started going on shooting ranges beginning of nineties, everybody was shooting SWC boolits. I started with friend’s Ruger 44 Flattop and S&W M29, using 429421, than I've got my first 44 Redhawk.

Few years later, I found in gun magazines some writers were suggesting that SWC is obsolete, no-no, passé, just for shooting ranges and if anybody is serious about handgun hunting, the only way is big, heavy LBT boolit, with large meplat, in front of hefty charge of H110 or W296. Since I don't use handgun as primary firearm in hunt, I was OK with existing SWC-s supplied by friends, leaving LBT and those wrist twisting loads to serious handgun hunters.

Three years ago I moved, supply of boolits died out and I started looking for a decent mold for my 44 revolvers. In fact, I did have brass mold for MP-Molds 432-256, purchased 12 years ago, but it was misplaced without casting a single bullet. Anyhow, I narrowed my choice to 432-256 and 432-640 from MP-Molds. Hoping that more knowledgeable and experienced shooters could help me make decision, I asked for advice https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?407894-44-Magnum-MP-Molds-432-256-v-s-432-640 . Considering what others posted, and putting priority on accuracy, I ordered 6-cavity aluminum 432-256. Having a nice memories from those first days, when loading and shooting 429421, I was happy with my decision going with #503 version from MP-Molds.

Than, recently, I found something that changed my view on handgun loads for hunting; a post on another forum, stating that 454424 from 45 Colt, lunched at 1100 fps was adequate for dispatching cattle, and in that respect, certainly more than enough for deer and feral and wild boars, see https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?442256-44-265-LBT-GC-boolit-another-aproach . Well, since I do not have 45 Colt revolver any more, just 44 Magnum, I was thinking about mold for boolit that will duplicate weight and meplat dia of 454424. Although, most likely there are such 44 LBT boolits, I put in noted thread my idea of such boolit.

However, bearing in mind what Murbach wrote about 454424 in 45 Colt, I started thinking about tweaking design of #503 to have same weight and meplat dia as 454424. Considering that lunching 265 grains bullet at 1100 fps from 44 Magnum revolvers in many cases is starting load for this cartridge and pressure quite bellow maximum, made this even more appealing.

So, for better or worse, here is my idea of modified #503, left, right is original #503:

https://i.imgur.com/M67AQug.jpg

I would appreciate your comments, or the link for something similar. Thanks

[Mal Paso]

Terminal performance of the 503 is fine and can be adjusted with alloy. Sounds like Money, Accurate can't cut that as drawn, would require a cherry.

Here is a 277g wide meplat supposedly designed by Keith. https://noebulletmolds.com/site/product-category/bullet-moulds/432/432-277-swc-bc4/ I never got the accuracy I got with the #503. It's out of stock but I'll bet there are a few out there used or someone could send you bullets to try.

[Onty]

As far as I know, Arsenal Molds https://arsenalmolds.com/ and Accurate Molds https://www.accuratemolds.com/ don't use cherry, they make molds on lathe.

Nevertheless, thank you very much for crucial information about accuracy of that 432-277-SWC. At least I know what to expect, and will stick to #503.

[Shopdog]

Got spoiled early.....

First 44 mould was the venerable 429421 Lyman. Had a bunch of S&W 29's and they are fine handguns but,once getting a DW744 went looking for a mould(was using jackets)....

Still have that mould,and DW.... it is the most accurate hunting revolver I've ever seen,with this mould. 10g of Unique for play,stout load of Blue Dot probably cover any deer.... heavy loads with 2400 for everything else.

The 29's here seem to prefer/tolerate the BD with jacketed 180's,and 200g GC lead.

[dale2242]

All my 44 molds are a SWCs.
429421, H&G 45 and H&G 45 GC and 429415 GC HP.

[lightman]

I still cast and load Keith type SWC's and don't consider them to be obsolete. And I still use clip-on wheelweights. Your design looks good!

[Jack Stanley]

Deer don't seem to be particularly hard to kill if the bullet is placed right . Placed wrong more weight and more 296 isn't going to help .

No problems using a SWC here , though my mold is a hollow point , I think a solid would have done as well in every case .

Jack

[Kosh75287]

I don't own a .44 Mag., but I shoot/hunt with a .45 Colt Ruger Redhawk (yes, with magnum-like loads). For hunting purposes in either caliber, I cannot imagine a better bullet configuration than a wide-meplat LSWC. I have since changed over to RNFPs because they feed better in my lever-gun, and targets seem indifferent to whether they're struck with these or LSWCs.
My OTHER consideration was, what if either of these guns must suddenly go from hunting implements to defensive arms? Granted that the LSWC works wonderfully on live targets, but if one must suddenly "go social", the wide meplats and sharp shoulders can make (rifle) feeding and cylinder charging (revolver) highly problematic. Since I often hunt on land owned by family in Oklahoma, where the most remunerative cash crop is STILL marijuana, I am "well above average" considerate of what could go wrong when I am hunting. Since I also tend to have luck that sometimes makes me a candidate for poster-child to Murphy's law, I DO wonder about such things.
I guess that my loading a 250 + gr. cast WFN to the same velocities would solve/reduce most of my concerns, but I question if it would perform any better than a similar-weight RNFP. I'm not currently able to cast, and cannot really afford the WFNs from other sources.
Just MY thoughts on the situation.

[dogdoc]

Unfortunately , I have had to euthanize cattle with Lyman 429421 44 cal 250 grain swc at around 1000 fps. It works fine as is. No need for any modification. It also is more than adequate for deer.

[Iwsbull]

I used Accurate molds 43-258J and had really good accuracy with it but now I mainly use the MP Devastator clone.

[Onty]

I still cast and load Keith type SWC's and don't consider them to be obsolete. And I still use clip-on wheelweights. Your design looks good!

Thanks, but as we all know, "proof is in the pudding". Will see if somebody could make a mold. Considering that Mal Paso didn't get great accuracy with 432-277-SWC, I am bit skeptical.

[bruce381]

SWC not obsolete I use them in all handguns any why, the SWC looks sexy and all the new kids with wonder 9,s do not know what they are LOL

[murf205]

I used to believe, and there may yet be some truth, that the rounded profile boolits are self centering in forcing cones. BUT...the SWC design has proved time and time again that it is as accurate as any other design and sometimes more so. They will never be a bad choice in a revolver for hunting or target work. Elmer got it right a long time ago.

[Onty]

Unfortunately , I have had to euthanize cattle with Lyman 429421 44 cal 250 grain swc at around 1000 fps. It works fine as is. No need for any modification. It also is more than adequate for deer.

Thanks for sharing your experience! I don't have any doubt that 429421 is more than enough for deer. However, having wild boars, (we have no feral pigs), reaching as much as 255 Kilograms (over 560 lbs) https://www-zadarskilist-hr.translate.goog/clanci/17042019/trofejni-ulov-vjeko-basic-na-pasmanu-ustrijelio-pravog-kapitalca?_x_tr_sl=hr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc , I would prefer more effective boolit, at bit higher velocity, to make sure wound channel will be large enough and boolit make exit wound for easier tracking.

[farmbif]

the 503 is an excellent bullet design. supposedly it was created by Elmer Keith after Lyman failed to form the 429421 as Elmer requested. or something like that. all I know I get great accuracy with the 503 design bullets in my revolvers and the wide flat nose will kill anything one of those guns is pointed at. lubesized at .431 ive never had any leading problem or chambering problem
the rounded flat nose 429640 feeds effectively in lever actions

[Mal Paso]

I load for bear. The #503 over 20g of 2400 for 1300-1350 fps. I am looking for a spine shot from the front, a clean hole all the way through.

The #503 has the longest front drive band of the 44 SWCs. The front drive band of a chambered round is just inside the throats of my Colts. No possibility of misalignment. You Do Need to pay attention to throat diameter and position. YOU have to make sure the round will chamber. The ability to chamber a round is what caused Lyman to trim the 429421 and upset Elmer Keith.

I used cut split magnum brass down to specials and load the 503s but I'd get a flier every so often so I don't think SWCs work as well with a long jump to throat.

The 432-640 is another very accurate bullet more forgiving of throats. I have the MP Hollowpoint, hollowpoints should not be this easy, just shamefull. LOL

[Onty]

I load for bear. The #503 over 20g of 2400 for 1300-1350 fps. I am looking for a spine shot from the front, a clean hole all the way through.

The #503 has the longest front drive band of the 44 SWCs. The front drive band of a chambered round is just inside the throats of my Colts. No possibility of misalignment. You Do Need to pay attention to throat diameter and position. YOU have to make sure the round will chamber. The ability to chamber a round is what caused Lyman to trim the 429421 and upset Elmer Keith.

I used cut split magnum brass down to specials and load the 503s but I'd get a flier every so often so I don't think SWCs work as well with a long jump to throat.

The 432-640 is another very accurate bullet more forgiving of throats. I have the MP Hollowpoint, hollowpoints should not be this easy, just shamefull. LOL
Great info, thanks!

Regarding front driving band, years ago I was reading review of boolit mold, and writer complained about its "poor" design. He was unable to load round in the chamber!? In his opinion, front driving band should be shorter and smaller dia. Obviously, guy didn't have a clue that lead boolit should be sized to fit the chamber. Worst yet, some folks who are making decisions in companies took such statement as a fact, and we have this:

305488

They even call it .44-250-K. I assume that "K" stands for Keith. Well, never say never, that boolit might be even OK for some revolvers, but good chance is that will not work well in majority of others. I certainly wouldn't bother with it. Keith new what works and why, and he insisted on full size, wide front driving band.

Regarding 640 design, I purchased mold 360-640 SOLID, BR, Plain Base, 155 grains, as cast .360. This one suppose to be going loaded (crimped in crimp groove) into 357 cylinder with boolit dia even larger than chamber front dia. Didn't test it yet, hope this fall when our range gets approval.

[Larry Gibson]

Great info, thanks!

Regarding front driving band, years ago I was reading review of boolit mold, and writer complained about its "poor" design. He was unable to load round in the chamber!? In his opinion, front driving band should be shorter and smaller dia. Obviously, guy didn't have a clue that lead boolit should be sized to fit the chamber. Worst yet, some folks who are making decisions in companies took such statement as a fact, and we have this:

305488

They even call it .44-250-K. I assume that "K" stands for Keith. Well, never say never, that boolit might be even OK for some revolvers, but good chance is that will not work well in majority of others. I certainly wouldn't bother with it. Keith new what works and why, and he insisted on full size, wide front driving band.

Regarding 640 design, I purchased mold 360-640 SOLID, BR, Plain Base, 155 grains, as cast .360. This one suppose to be going loaded (crimped in crimp groove) into 357 cylinder with boolit dia even larger than chamber front dia. Didn't test it yet, hope this fall when our range gets approval.

I have the RCBS 44-250-KT mould. The bullet it casts has 3 equal width drive bands including the front drive band as per Keith's specification. My Lyman 429421 "Keith" mould drops bullets that have a slightly thinner drive band but a wider base band than does the RCBS bullet.

With equal loads from 44 SPL equivalent up through full bore "Keith" Magnum loads I couldn't give you a Nichols worth of difference in accuracy between them in any of my 3 44 Magnum revolvers or Contender.

429421 on left, 44-250-KT on right

305497

[Onty]

I have the RCBS 44-250-KT mould. The bullet it casts has 3 equal width drive bands including the front drive band as per Keith's specification. My Lyman 429421 "Keith" mould drops bullets that have a slightly thinner drive band but a wider base band than does the RCBS bullet.

With equal loads from 44 SPL equivalent up through full bore "Keith" Magnum loads I couldn't give you a Nichols worth of difference in accuracy between them in any of my 3 44 Magnum revolvers or Contender.

429421 on left, 44-250-KT on right

305497

Interesting observation! And how things changed at RCBS. Here is third RCBS design, they withdrew it from listing years ago:

305517

It would be interesting to hear how this boolit works.

Possible explanation why (quote) "I couldn't give you a Nichols worth of difference in accuracy between them in any of my 3 44 Magnum revolvers or Contender" could be that revolvers you have are well made, with cylinder bores aligned properly with barrels. IMO Contender confirms this. Things are getting different when alignment is not so good, cylinder chambers made sloppy, indexing is loose, etc. This is where boolit with full dia, wide front band shows its advantage.

Talking about Contender, I had it, and IMHO every beginner should start with it. Or get Freedom Arms, Korth, Manurhin, or other revolvers or handguns that make 1" on 25 yards. Contender is relatively inexpensive, shoots like a rifle on 25 yards, even with mediocre ammo. Having highly accurate handgun, in which shooter has the confidence, is absolute must. I know that first hand, because I started the worst possible way; .455 Webley from WWI, using ammo with boolits for 45 ACP and 45 Colt. I was lucky to get 5" from the rest, and experienced shooters were getting 3.5-4". Tell me about "building confidence"...

[robg]

i have found SWC are more accurate than WFN boolits.just saying.
.

[Onty]

i have found SWC are more accurate than WFN boolits.just saying.
.

I think that main issue with non-SWC boolits is that the most of them have very short front driving band, or no front driving band at all, so they are not centered in the chamber as SWC with full size, long front driving band.

[paul edward]

I had good luck with the RCBS 44-225 SWC-GC in a revolver, but not in my 1894 Marlin. When crimped in the crimp groove, it's OAL is too long to function through the magazine and, when fed singly, accuracy was poor from the microgroove barrel (revolver loads were sized .430). I see that RCBS no longer offers this mold.

Another excellent SWC is the 250 grain Lyman 429336. This was designed for target use in 44 Russian. Is not good for heavy loads as it lacks a crimp groove.

[Larry Gibson]

If I remember correctly (?), the idea behind the slightly smaller diameter front drive band was to help center the bullet as it entered the barrel forcing cone, not the cylinder throats.

[murf205]

Larry, I believe that myself. After talking with the guys at Sierra a few years back, they told me that the most accurate bullet they made for a lot of calibers was a round nose. the fly in the ointment was that if it isn't as pointed as a freshly sharpened pencil, they didn't sell worth a hoot. As big a fan as I am about the self centering theory, I can't argue with the success and accuracy of SWC's, hence my just acquired 224 gr305630 NOE for my 4" 29-2. I think I have all the bases covered 44 wise, anyway with a-left to right-224 gr, Lyman 429421, Noe 270gr and a Lee 310.

[405grain]

Bullets do not self center as they enter the forcing cone. In firearms, bullets move so quickly, with so much momentum, that if they enter into a barrel off center they will engrave and continue to travel down the bore with their center of mass misaligned with the bore. This applies to both rifles and pistols, with either jacketed or cast bullets. The accuracy of any firearm will improve if the bullets are aligned with the bore prior to firing.

That being said; I've been using the older version of the rcbs 44-245-SWC since the 1980's in both a Superblackhawk and a S&W 629 with excellent results. I take a lot of what magazine gun writers say with a grain of salt because (even though their advise is sometimes good) one of their main agendas is to help sell the products that fund their employer. There will always be the newest and best-est whiz-bang invention that's light years better than that "old" stuff that your using. It isn't so much that I don't buy the hype, it's a lot more that most of the old stuff works just fine.

[Onty]

Larry, I believe that myself. After talking with the guys at Sierra a few years back, they told me that the most accurate bullet they made for a lot of calibers was a round nose. the fly in the ointment was that if it isn't as pointed as a freshly sharpened pencil, they didn't sell worth a hoot...
IMO the issue with round nose bullets is their ballistic coefficient is less than of those pointed ones. Up to 100-150 yards not much different from pointed ones, but on longer distances the difference in velocity drop and point of impact was enough so shooters opted to go with pointed bullets.

In addition to that, I found an article on Paco Kelly's Leverguns.com about bullet testing. In the same rifle, two different bullets were tested. Both were same weight, launched at the same velocity, with very similar profile, except one was boat tail, another non boat tail. At 300 yards the boat tailed bullet printed almost a foot higher than non boat tailed one.

Back to SWC. Years back I was intrigued what will happen if our standard SWC has two grease grooves rather than a single one. I designed, and a good friend made from a single cavity 38 mold, 45-325-SWC, 2 grease grooves:

306112

It was loaded using 4227, getting 1050-1100 fps (no chronograph, just estimate according to load chart), from 7.5" Bisley. After couple dozen rounds, I didn't notice any leading in a barrel. Contrary to that, a friend had Python Ultimate, and he was shooting from it 38 Special, 158-SWC. After dozen or so rounds, leading was clearly visible. FYI, both bullets were cast from the same WW lead.

I had nothing else to do these days, so I modified 44-265-SWC with .320" dia meplat, making same bullet with 2 grease grooves:

https://i.imgur.com/JT7HXxW.jpg

I already contacted one bullet mold maker. Hopefully, they will make it for me. Yeah, I know this is "shot in the dark", but I couldn't resist temptation. :lol: