reloading 45 ACP 200 gn Wadcutter HELP

[jscanga]

I am experienced reloading rifle cartridges. I know how to find the best powder charge, neck tension, find the lands and test for the best seating depth, etc. None of my experience seems to transfer to reloading 45 ACP with 200 gn lead wadcutters for accuracy at 25 and 50 yards.

Headspace is determined by case length, but no one seems to measure and trim their cases.
Is seating depth strictly determined by OAL or is there a tuning process?
The bullet manufacturer recommends a light crimp, I have made some dummy rounds and they set to cycle well enough. The crimp is definitely less that factory ball info.... am I on the right track?

I am used to being able to measure everything, this seem more like an art..... a few pointers would be greatly appreciated

Thanks,

John

[txbirdman]

Best way to check for correct length is to remove the barrel from your pistol and to seat bullet depth so that the case head is flush with the barrel hood. I’m of the opinion that the .45 acp head spaces on the bullet.

[HWooldridge]

I am only accustomed to loading the H&G 68 SWC 200g. One thing I do is leave about .060 of the front driving band exposed, this will generally give you some “preload” engagement into the rifling, and makes case length consistency less problematic. I also use a Lee factory crimp die, which is easy to adjust for optimal head space in your pistol.

5.0 gr W231 will yield one ragged hole in my guns at 25 yds and shoots better than I can hold at 50.

[jscanga]

Best way to check for correct length is to remove the barrel from your pistol and to seat bullet depth so that the case head is flush with the barrel hood. I’m of the opinion that the .45 acp head spaces on the bullet.

I have been messing around with this a bit, thank you

[jscanga]

I am only accustomed to loading the H&G 68 SWC 200g. One thing I do is leave about .060 of the front driving band exposed, this will generally give you some “preload” engagement into the rifling, and makes case length consistency less problematic. I also use a Lee factory crimp die, which is easy to adjust for optimal head space in your pistol.

5.0 gr W231 will yield one ragged hole in my guns at 25 yds and shoots better than I can hold at 50.


I have left the bearing surface slightly above the case mouth (I think that’s what you were suggesting)
I also use the Lee crimp die, I can still feel the case mouth but it seems to feed okay when I cycle by hand

Bullseye is the only powder I could find, gonna start about 4.0

Thanks for the info

[Mikedominick]

I won many PPC matches that went from 7 yards out to 50 using a 200SWC and Bullseye, so you're on the right track.

[Sgt H]

I also load a H&G 68 clone in my 45ACP target/plinking ammo. I also leave about .050" of the front driving band exposed and taper crimp to .468" at the case mouth. I don't load mine as light as the 4gr bullseye level but hot enough to make major which is 875fps. 4gr of bullseye is what would be called a soft ball load for paper punching and may not function with standard recoil springs. In 1911's we had to run 10-12# recoil springs instead of the normal 16# spring.

[jscanga]

I also load a H&G 68 clone in my 45ACP target/plinking ammo. I also leave about .050" of the front driving band exposed and taper crimp to .468" at the case mouth. I don't load mine as light as the 4gr bullseye level but hot enough to make major which is 875fps. 4gr of bullseye is what would be called a soft ball load for paper punching and may not function with standard recoil springs. In 1911's we had to run 10-12# recoil springs instead of the normal 16# spring.

This is going to be target shooting, one hand at 25 & 50 yards. I am looking for accuracy and more manageable recoil. I picked the 4.0 from the Lee's Modern Reloading (lowest starting charge).

I was thinking that I should concentrate on the accuracy and change springs if I have cycling issues.....am I going in the wrong direction?

[243winxb]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/45acp-947-just-touching-my-rifling.477/full

[jscanga]

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/45acp-947-just-touching-my-rifling.477/full

I have mine seated much deeper than that

Seating depth in rifle bullets makes a difference in horizontal spread, some guys jam the bullets into the lands. I know how to measure all that

[Kosh75287]

I've seen published data for PPC .45 ACP as low as 3.5/Bullseye/185 gr. LSWC, but I'm betting that such loads involve custom springs and other modifications. I shot a lot of 4.0/Bullseye/200 gr. LSWC when I was competing in falling plate contests. The load will function in my 1911 with a stock recoil spring, but not if it is brand-new.
Concerning the seating depth with the 200 gr. LSWCs, I've ended up relying on a "rule of thumb" (and this is going to sound stupid) that the shoulder of the projectile extends above the case mouth ~1/32", or about the thickness of the average thumbnail (I TOLD y'all it'd sound stupid). The distances depicted in the pictures shown are different in my loads (~.935"), but probably close enough that it doesn't matter.
To solve other issues, I ended up taper-crimping my ammo in a separate step using a Redding die. It shrunk my groups noticeably.

[Shopdog]

This post may get long....

We have a wonderful machine shop,very blessed. Have made a truckload of handloading and cast tools N whatnots. Also have a bunch of 1911's.

Yes,you can find.... and exceed "jam" length on a SWC 1911,to very good effect. I was making up a new top punch a few years ago for some new to me mould? Can't remember which one? Anyway in that process I was trying to get a precision fit between this new TP and the sizing die(Lyman 450 luber). The very bttm of this TP came to an almost knife edge,right where it interfaces with the bullet's WC shoulder. At first it looked like an "oops",went a little too far on that one.... backing up,the goal was a TP that did not touch the bullet nose but worked entirely on the shoulder.

But what the hey,I tried it anyway knowing it could always be made shorter. Sure enough,once it was all adjusted this TP put a very repeatable V cut right at the juncture of nose to shoulder. Little(lot) more involved but hopefully you get the picture...

Working with a beautiful,highly smithed 1911 Commander that thinks itself a BE rig...... I kept adding OAL until it just wasn't going into battery. Think of this as "jam",or "touch"...plus. Pretty much the same as a rifle. Once I got the OAL set to juuuust short of tying it up, is when it became apparent. The problem/s with jam and a 1911 is,or are many... gets complex. But because of the V,there is a collapse/crush so to speak on the chamber's leade when going into battery. Here's where your guns springing comes into play..... doh.

This "ain't" obviously for SD ammo,or anything like that. It's about cranking out loads for obliterating X's.. impress your buddy's,take their lunch money stuff. So yes,you can find and use "jam" on a SWC 1911.... good luck with your project.

[Wag]

Rimless auto pistol ammo headspaces on the case mouth. You shouldn't crimp either, except for maybe a light taper crimp that takes out any flare from the seating step.

I've never done full WC in an auto pistol but the semi-wadcutters can have issues chambering. You'll have to play with the seating depths a bit in order to figure that one out. Any time I load SWC, they generally turn out to be pretty accurate but some pistols just really don't like 'em. Others handle them just fine.

--Wag--

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I am experienced reloading rifle cartridges. I know how to find the best powder charge, neck tension, find the lands and test for the best seating depth, etc. None of my experience seems to transfer to reloading 45 ACP with 200 gn lead wadcutters for accuracy at 25 and 50 yards.

Headspace is determined by case length, but no one seems to measure and trim their cases.

>>>SNIP

First question is, are you loading Full Wadcutters? or Semi Wadcutters?

While there are a few people who trim pistol cases, most don't. Pistol cases do not grow like Necked rifle cases do during FL sizing. If fact, they can actually shrink (ever so slightly). Basically, if you are shooting a pistol at typical pistol distances, then slight case length variation doesn't matter, as long as your finished ammo will reliably chamber in your gun.
that's my 2¢

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Rimless auto pistol ammo headspaces on the case mouth. You shouldn't crimp either, except for maybe a light taper crimp that takes out any flare from the seating step.

I've never done full WC in an auto pistol but the semi-wadcutters can have issues chambering. You'll have to play with the seating depths a bit in order to figure that one out. Any time I load SWC, they generally turn out to be pretty accurate but some pistols just really don't like 'em. Others handle them just fine.

--Wag--

Yep, My Ruger American will not cycle a H&G 68...or any of the clones.

[Soundguy]

Rimless auto pistol ammo headspaces on the case mouth. You shouldn't crimp either, except for maybe a light taper crimp that takes out any flare from the seating step.

I've never done full WC in an auto pistol but the semi-wadcutters can have issues chambering. You'll have to play with the seating depths a bit in order to figure that one out. Any time I load SWC, they generally turn out to be pretty accurate but some pistols just really don't like 'em. Others handle them just fine.

--Wag--

Agreed.. autoloader rimless loads crimp on the case mouth.. and yes.. taper crimp.

I use a lyman loading block to check my loads.

[C.F.Plinker]

You can headspace off of
!. The case mouth
2. The boolet
2. The extractor

Your assignment, should you wish to accept it, is to do the plunk test with both a loaded round and a case that has only been resized. If the loaded round passes the plunk test but the case only doesn't , you are probably headspacing off the boolet. If neither one passes you could be headspacing off the extractor.

FWIW when I did this on my wadcutter gun I found that I was headspacing off the extractor. Just for fun I started moving the bullet out until I was headspacing off the boolet. The mold is a Saeco 5G and by the time it was headspacing off the boolet I could see the upper portion of the top lube groove above the case mouth. My normal COL for boolets from this mold is 1.155 inches.

[jscanga]

I loaded up more dummy rounds:
I cranked my seating die out a bit, when I dropped the rounds into the barrel they too long and stuck out past the barrel hood. An empty case was almost exactly flush with the barrel hood. I found that I had to seat them to where the bearing surface is just above the case mouth for them to be flush with the barrel hood.
I loaded five rounds each 4.0g to 5.0g in .1 increments. I dropped each round in the barrel to check that they were flush with the barrel hood (until I am comfortable with the process).

I don't think I have done anything dangerously wrong.

Gonna try and test tomorrow and hope for the best

[Soundguy]

Headspacing off the bullet *can* do strange things sometimes. Case mouth, shoulder..even the rim, or case taper are the ways I like. ;)

[jscanga]

Headspacing off the bullet *can* do strange things sometimes. Case mouth, shoulder..even the rim, or case taper are the ways I like. ;)

I believe I am headspaceing off the case mouth

[jscanga]

Thanks to everyone for their input, I truly appreciate it!

[Texas by God]

The thumbnail method works for me (with the 105gr swc in the 9mm as well.)
I've mostly used 5 grs of Bullseye with the 200gr swc in the .45 but I'm not a competitor.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[jscanga]

This post may get long....

We have a wonderful machine shop,very blessed. Have made a truckload of handloading and cast tools N whatnots. Also have a bunch of 1911's.

Yes,you can find.... and exceed "jam" length on a SWC 1911,to very good effect. I was making up a new top punch a few years ago for some new to me mould? Can't remember which one? Anyway in that process I was trying to get a precision fit between this new TP and the sizing die(Lyman 450 luber). The very bttm of this TP came to an almost knife edge,right where it interfaces with the bullet's WC shoulder. At first it looked like an "oops",went a little too far on that one.... backing up,the goal was a TP that did not touch the bullet nose but worked entirely on the shoulder.

But what the hey,I tried it anyway knowing it could always be made shorter. Sure enough,once it was all adjusted this TP put a very repeatable V cut right at the juncture of nose to shoulder. Little(lot) more involved but hopefully you get the picture...

Working with a beautiful,highly smithed 1911 Commander that thinks itself a BE rig...... I kept adding OAL until it just wasn't going into battery. Think of this as "jam",or "touch"...plus. Pretty much the same as a rifle. Once I got the OAL set to juuuust short of tying it up, is when it became apparent. The problem/s with jam and a 1911 is,or are many... gets complex. But because of the V,there is a collapse/crush so to speak on the chamber's leade when going into battery. Here's where your guns springing comes into play..... doh.

This "ain't" obviously for SD ammo,or anything like that. It's about cranking out loads for obliterating X's.. impress your buddy's,take their lunch money stuff. So yes,you can find and use "jam" on a SWC 1911.... good luck with your project.

Thank you, I appreciate the info

[jscanga]

The thumbnail method works for me (with the 105gr swc in the 9mm as well.)
I've mostly used 5 grs of Bullseye with the 200gr swc in the .45 but I'm not a competitor.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

I’m gonna give it a try

[scattershot]

Bullseye is the only powder I could find, gonna start about 4.0

Thanks for the info


Most accurate .45ACP load I have found to date is 4.2 Bullseye with a 200 grain SWC bullet.

[tigweldit]

My series 70 Gold Cup loves 4.5 of Bullseye behind a 200 swc from a 65 year old Lyman 452460.

[Char-Gar]

Folks have been handloading 200 grain target loads in the 1911 pistol for well over 100 years and there are no secrets nor codes to break. The 1911 pistol is very easy to load for. You could have one or several problems, but not enough info to narrow it down. Could be the pistol barrel, the springs, the magazine or any number of issues with the load. The problem should be an easy fix, but first we have to know what the problem is.

[243winxb]

If shooting Bullseye/Precision pistol with a 45acp, the Lyman 200 gr bevel base is the most accurate for me of the home cast bullets. Bullseye powder is 3.8 grs for 50 yards. For 25 timed & rapid, as low as 3.5 grs may work the action. Lighter spring may be needed?

I use Starline brass. It will get shorter, the more its fired, loaded. Never trimmed using target loads. The WLP works as the primer.
The photo/measurement above is touching the rifling. Ok for slow fire, as it improves accuracy @50 yards. Not for timed or rapid.

If casting your own, harder alloys are more accurate & feed better. Diameter .452" lswc.

The High Masters may be using jacketed bullets or factory target ammo, in the 700 to 790 fps range.

From a rest @ 50 yards, groups should be 3" or smaller, to hold the 10 ring.
https://www.bullseyeforum.net/

Headspace depends on barrels chamber. Some are short like my Cold Cup Series 70, others can be longer. Maximum length brass is most accurare, as are minimum chambers.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/castbullets_20090207_005.497/full

[Rich/WIS]

My standard load is a Lee 200 gr SWC that I milled the bevel off and ended up with a 190gr flat base bullet cast in range lead, seated to =/- 1.250 and taper crimped. Backed by 3.1 grs Bullseye and a standard LP primer it functions well in a Springfield Range Officer, using a 10# recoil spring and a 19# hammer spring in a standard mainspring housing, not the key lock style. Past 10K rounds and no functional issues and brass lands 4-5 feet from the gun.

If you tune the pistol Wolff springs has the springs you need. Also check your magazines, the standard mag can sometimes be an issue. There are mags with lip configuration for SWC bullets that release the round sooner in the return cycle to aid feeding.

[oldsalt444]

The USAMU has done many tests on these issues you mention and it doesn't make much difference at all. They tried bullet seating depths, mixed headstamp brass, different primers, case length and found no difference in accuracy. While it's true that the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth, the reality is that it will headspace on the extractor more than anything else. I've been shooting bullseye for 40 years and never trimmed a case. They usually end up short from slamming into the chamber. Besides the mechanical accuracy of the gun you're using, .45 ACP accuracy depends largely on the bullet itself and the powder charge. The .45 is very forgiving to reload, but you do need a decent crimp. That's important. I usually use a .470 to .465 taper crimp.

[Dutchman]

These are seated to chamber freely, flush with the barrel hood. Taper crimp. Bullet is Lee Group buy HG68 clone with flat base. I size .452" for a 1937 Colt Gov't. I load standard level of power not light target loads.

In the 1969 NRA Handloader's Guide is illustrated how to seat .45 acp using ROLL crimp. I did it in my early years of shooting .45 acp circa 1968. Now I use nothing but taper crimp.

https://images42.fotki.com/v1423/photos/4/28344/9430776/20201101_204643-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/bullet-casting/20201101-204643.html)

https://images46.fotki.com/v101/photos/4/28344/9430776/20201101_204711-vi.jpg (https://public.fotki.com/dutchman/crufflerstuff/bullet-casting/20201101-204711.html)