Anyone ever have a 38 spl. WC load case separation?

[GrizzLeeBear]

Was shooting my new 3" Taurus 856 when it locked up, cylinder wouldn't turn. I was shooting lee standard wadcutters with 3.2 gr of Win 231, so not a hot load or anything. At first I thought it was a squib load (no powder) but I loaded these on my L-N-L progressive with a RCBS lock out die, so that was unlikely. Using a cleaning rod, I could drop it all the way down to the bottom of the case. From the side looking at the cylinder gap you could definitely see some thing bridging the gap that looked brass colored, not lead color. Looking down the barrel with a good light You can see the primer hole in the bottom of the case and the shinny rim of the case mouth just beyond the end of the rifling. So apparenty the case sepparated and the front half pushed through the throat and into the forcing cone.
The brass is some mixed headstamp wadcutter brass that was last shot and re-primed by my dad in the 70's. They all look to be in good shape so figured it was already primed so why not load and shoot them.
Has been at the gunsmith for almost 2 months waiting for him to "get around to it". He said he has a jag that is the just the right size to fit snug to the lands so it can get a hold of the mouth and push it back into the cylinder. Supposedly shout have it this weekend.
It was only my second time out with the little revolver and I have only put about 60-70 rounds thruogh it, I was just starting to get the hang of shooting it when it locked up. When talking with the gunsmith he said it doesn't happen very often but they used to see it occasionally back when Bullseye and PPC shooting were still popular and the 38 brass got reloaded VERY many times.

Anyone else ever had this happen?

[ReloaderFred]

Yep, back when I was shooting PPC on a regular basis. Brass fatigue is what it is. When this happens, it normally occurs at a cannelure in the case, but not always.

There are several ways to get the stuck half of the case out, but since you've already entrusted it to the care of your gunsmith, just let him deal with it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[tazman]

I have split a lot of 38 special cases from long usage but have never seen one separate. No reason at all it can't happen though.
Old fired brass tends to be brittle. My oldest brass splits a lot of cases.
Not so much with newer brass.

[Winger Ed.]

I've had quite a few splits on real old brass, but not a separation-- at least not yet.

[reddog81]

Cylinder throat should be in the .357 to .360 range. Brass should be in the .379 +/- range. Even if the brass separated, I don't see how the brass could move forward past the cylinder throat.

When the bullet is fired the brass case is pressed rearward against the recoil shield with the same force pushing on the base of the bullet.

Unless the cylinder is straight bored through and the bullet somehow drug the broken section of brass into the forcing cone this doesn't seem possible.

[Mk42gunner]

I think it depends on just when in the ignition sequence the case separates. Late and both pieces of brass stay in the chamber. Early and the expanding gas can get under or behind the brass front section and push it along with the projectile until the front section gets dragged to a stop by the throat.

Just my guess.

Robert

[GrizzLeeBear]

When this happens, it normally occurs at a cannelure in the case, but not always.

Fred, thats kind of what I figured happened. We'll see when I get it back from the gunsmith.

I was thinking (just in case it happens again) I could take a larger caliber cleaning jag and turn it down in my drill press with a file until it was small enough to fit down the bore on the lands and catch the case mouth and tap it out.

Reddog, I wouldn't think it possible either, but here we are. I think wadcutters and old wadcutter brass make it possible. The cannalure in case creates a potential weak ring around the brass. You also have a bullet that is deep in case, giving it a lot of neck tension. When the cannalure lets go when fired, the bullet drags the front half of the case through the throat into the forcing cone which provides enough drag on the brass to force the bullet to let go and proceed out the barrel.

[ReloaderFred]

Once in a while you can get them out with a bore brush, but not often. I've had to pour Cerrosafe into the stuck half of the case and then push it out with a brass rod. That really wouldn't work in your case, since you can't get the cylinder open. You have to be able to place a plug where you want the Cerrosafe to stop flowing. Perhaps a range rod for .38 Special would work, since they're designed to just ride the tops of the lands.

Your idea of turning down a jag to the proper diameter would probably be the cheapest and easiest, and jags are cheap.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[dverna]

Learned something. I have had a lot of split .38 cases but never seen one separate.

[Slahp]

I have seen several with old reloads the old brass all split on the front section ending up in the forcing cone locking the cylinder.
The easiest way to remove the partial case is a turned down oversized jag. Best to get unload all the brass and save the primers and bullets.

[gwpercle]

Brass doesn't last forever ... load them long enough and they eventually let go .
Most crack at the mouth from crimping but I've had it seperate at the factory cannelure on the body , about half way down , at times I had some split length ways on the body between mouth and rim ... Brass cases are just like us ... get old , get tired and eventually ...
... they just let go .
Gary

[JoeJames]

Never had a case head separate before (never say never though). But I have noticed y'all's discussing how nickle 38 Special cases were prone to a mouth split. Anyhow I'd loaded up 50 nickle plated 38 Special wad cutters - I guess cause they looked perty, but first one in my TC Contender lodged about halfway in. I pulled it, and sho nuff the case mouth had split over the wad cutter boolit. I will avoid the nickle plated brass in the future.

[lead collector]

Probably not related, but I will toss this into the list of causes.

Long ago when I was a kid, my Dad had just started reloading. He was new to reloading, and had started out with a 222 Remington, and then began reloading for a 38 special.
Some one told him that he could use small rifle primers in his 38's until he was able to get some small pistol primers.
Dad had several case separations, just ahead of the web, with light loads of Bullseye powder and full wad cutters.
Brand new winchester brass, and with 2.8 grains of Bullseye powder. After this happened a few times, he made the 70 mile one way trip to the gun shop, where he bought his reloading supplies, and purchased the correct primers.
The shop owner, and highly experienced gun smith told him the small pistol primers were the cause.
I hear all the time of guys subbing components these days, just to keep shooting, and I wonder about this practice.

All I know is that the problems went away, and Dad never had any more issues. He went on to be an outstanding, and careful reloading for many years, and with many different calibers.

To summarize: O.P. is it possible that these cases were primed with rifle primers?

[lotech]

Since you have a partial history of the brass but not the entire story, maybe it's just tired brass that's been loaded too many times, or that piece of brass was defective to begin with. I don't recall ever having a .38 case separate. Good luck-

[GrizzLeeBear]

Lead Collector, of course I can't be 100% sure, but I highly doubt they weren't pistol primers. Dad always had a good supply of correct components and was a carefull reloader. I'm pretty sure this was just an old tired case (who know how many times it had been fired). I don't have a lot of this brass and am planning on retiring these cases once I'm done shooting them.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Well finally got the gun back from the gunsmith. Turned out to be a LOT more difficult to fix. He could not get ahold of the separated case from the front with a number of tools/methods to try and push it back. Ended up removing the guts and drilling out the firing pin hole to get a tool of some sort (I don't know what he used) in from the back to drive the separated part of the case forward enough to get the cylinder open and then extract it. Then fitted a firing pin bushing to fill the drilled hole.
The case had separated at the wadcutter canalure. I have probably less than 100 of these primed cases left. I will be recovering the primers and tossing the rest of this brass. May be a one in a million occurance, but I'm not taking any chances. Like I said earlier, my dad probably got this brass in the 60's or 70's and who know how many times it was fired/reloaded.
Told the shop owner it looks like I will be keeping this gun and trying to wear it out cause I'll never get my money back out of it since I have a $350 gun with an added $100 of gunsmithing in it. LOL

[Green Frog]

Well, while we’re on the subject of case separation with 38 Spl MRWCs, I had one separate at the rim in a Colt National Match wad gun. Fortunately, it was the last round in the mag because the rim went down through the mag, jamming it in the mag well and cracking open the grips. This forced me to open my hand and drop the gun onto the bench. Bits of brass went all over including a couple in my cheek and one just about dead center over my right iris in the lens of my shooting glasses. If anyone wonders why I’m religious about wearing shooting glasses, now you know.
Damage to the gun? Part of case pushed into chamber wall but removed by normal means, magazine spring required a little fiddling to salvage, and and a nice pair of wooden Colt factory grips destroyed. You might say I got off lucky.
The moral of the story is, even bunny fart wadcutter loads develop pretty good pressure. Don’t cheap out using brass of unknown history or quality. This is especially important with semi autos, but really applies to all reloaded brass. Thus endeth my Christmas Eve tale. Gotta go to bed now so Santa can come!
Froggie

[smkummer]

I wonder if tapping a lead ball ( like checking for groove diameter) would have maybe pushed the case back into the cylinder. I have 4 30 cal. ammo cans filled with various loads of 38 special loads from cowboy, lee wadcutter, standard and plus P. 38 special by far is my most reloaded cartridge for probably close to 30 years and all my brass is of many vintages but started out as range swept brass from a police requal range. I have never had that happen as all my brass eventually shows longitudinal cracks or splits.

[rintinglen]

The only time it happened to me, I was able to push the ring back into the cylinder throat enough to get the cylinder open with a brush on a cleaning rod, and then it was no big thing to push the brass ring out of the throat with the bore brush. I ended up with a brass ring just about a 1/4 inch long that had separated at the cannelure. IIRC, it was an old R-P case, but it has been 35 plus years.

[MT Gianni]

There are those who think you can't wear out 38 special brass. It doesn't last forever.