What Did I Just Buy

[AnthonyB]

Fellas:
Standard hard luck pitch at a gas station, with a twist. “Are you interested in a pistol?” revealed a K-frame 38 S&W. Looks original, with lanyard ring and 38 767 3 1/2 ton stamps on left side of barrel. Crown and BNP proof marks in between all cylinder charge holes, but no “V” in the serial number. I am 20 minutes into research, but thought to ask here before going down rabbit holes.
Any info appreciated.
Tony

[Hannibal]

:popcorn: Tagged

[Winger Ed.]

You'll shoot your eye out kid.

Those things can be really dangerous.
Better let one of us older guys take that so you don't hurt yourself.

[JimB..]

Likely a stolen gun.

[Dusty Bannister]

To me, the crown and BNP suggest Brit gun. I thought, perhaps wrong, that the V models were US arms and not intended for the Brits. When you say K frame, do you mean like the M&P or with adjustable sights? These might have been made with a matt finish. You do mean 38 Smith & Wesson, not 38 special? added link for British Proof Marks


https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/514-2

[Dusty Bannister]

To me, the crown and BNP suggest Brit gun. I thought, perhaps wrong, that the V models were US arms and not intended for the Brits. When you say K frame, do you mean like the M&P or with adjustable sights? These might have been made with a matt finish. You do mean 38 Smith & Wesson, not 38 special?

https://www.ww2-weapons.com/smith-wesson-revolvers/#:~:text=The%20Smith%20%26%20Wesson%20M1905%20revo lver%20was%20widely,total%2C%20more%20than%202.5%2 0million%20pieces%20were%20delivered.

[Thumbcocker]

Sounds like a victory model that went to Britan. Could be .38 special or .38 S&W. Good solid old guns.

[contender1]

If it were me,, I'd be talking to my friends, in law enforcement. I'd have the gun's numbers run,,,, JUST IN CASE!

I would not want to be caught with a stolen gun.

AFTER that,, and if it comes up clean,, then the serious research can be done.

[bedbugbilly]

+1 to Thumbcockerand a BIG +1 to contender1

That "deal" from the gas station could cause you a lot of problems . . . did you know the seller? If not - you may have just purchased a "hot" firearm, or worse yet, one that could be tied into a felony crime. I'm guessing that it must have been cheap since you really don't know what it is . . . . that's the first thing that should make the bells go off . . .

[dannyd]

You know two things to never buy at gas stations is the Sushi or cheap guns. Just Saying ;)

[Hannibal]

You know two things at gas stations you DON'T buy is the Sushi or cheap gun. Just Saying ;)

Fixed it for you.

[AnthonyB]

I knew what it was when I saw it, but didn’t recall all the details. The revolver is in very nice shape with minor finish wear near the muzzle. I’ll get it cleaned up for a closer look, but all the serial numbers match. I still don’t see a “V” in the serial number or on the other side of the lanyard loop. Haven’t figured out what that means yet.
The best fresh seafood in the rural county where I live is from a gas station, but I prefer my sushi breaded and deep fried!
Tony

[BP Dave]

When I was a kid, if my dad wanted to describe something as really hot, he'd say it was "Hotter than a two-dollar pistol."
I wonder if "Hotter than a gas station pistol" means the same thing.

[Hannibal]

It would seem that the OP isn't worried about that but there's no way I'd buy a pistol from someone with a hard luck story unless I knew them REALLY well and even then I'd wonder if they were getting ready to skip town suddenly.
You'd be better off to just give someone money than to buy a stolen pistol let alone a stolen pistol used in a felony. And then to ask about it on line?!?!? :holysheep
But, not my monkeys nor my circus.

[JoeJames]

Right side of the barrel should either state 38S&W, or 38 Special. Without doing some research reviews, I think the British Victory model Smiths before Lend Lease or maybe even a little after that were not marked with a V on the serial number.

[murf205]

"but all the serial numbers match." Tony, you are probably looking at the assembly numbers when you indicate more than 1 number. The only serial number on a Lend Lease S&W is on the bottom of the butt where the lanyard swivel is, or was. See if a 38 spl cartridge will chamber all the way in the cylinders. If they do, what you have is a coversion likely done in England or Australia after the war. If that is the case, the cases will probably split upon firing as the 38S&W case is larger in diameter than the 38 spl, causing a 2 diameter chamber(s).
I had a chance to buy a pristine Lend Lease S&W but someone had ground the serial number off the butt. A lot of these guns got done this way because some of the G.I.'s returning home were afraid they would get in trouble because it is marked U S Property, but in reality, they created more trouble by defacing the ser#...a LOT MORE TROUBLE. Do yourself a favor and take it to the local PD and tell them you want them to run the numbers. If it is stolen, you will have to immediately surrender the gun and answer a bunch of questions but it beats getting caught with a hot gun. If not, you have a coveted piece on American history. I/we are not being judgemental but don't want to see you get into hot water.

[AnthonyB]

Fellas, thanks for the concern. I am not worried about legality - the concerns mentioned do not apply here. All appropriate and required legal precautions will be taken, and worse case scenario is that I lose the purchase price of the pistol. I appreciate the advice, but that is not the information I was looking for with my original post. I realize that asking a question on the board about apples inevitably leads to a doctorate level education in oranges!

Joe; any idea where in the serial number range the V as part of the serial number appeared? I haven’t yet found anything on that.

Murf, I have another M&P 38 S&W that is currently with my Dad. The limited research I’ve done indicates the revolvers were serial numbered on the butt, bottom of the barrel, and cylinder. The numbers on this one all match. This one does not look like the cylinder was bored through for 38 Special, but I have not yet checked. I’ll get a roundtoit when cleaning after the legalities are satisfied.

Again, thanks to all for the concerns and all info appreciated.
Tony

[compass will]

There are sites on the internet to run serial numbers through to see if the gun is listed stolen.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[rintinglen]

S&W sold over 110,000 38/200 revolvers to the British, before they began the "V" serial number series in 1944. The serial numbers are all 6 digit, running from ~700,000 to ~1,000,000. They are mechanically identical to the M&P Model of 1905, 4th change and were numbered within the M&P serial number range.

S&W continued to produce more revolvers for British service, ultimately making some 568,000+, more than either the standard Enfield or substitute standard Webley revolvers combined. According Ian Hogg, they were much liked by the Commonwealth troops and preferred over the Enfield/Webley Break tops.

In the 1990's, thousands were reportedly imported from Australia and Singapore. Mine was an Aussie gun with a 5" barrel and enough markings and stampings to make a decent book and cost 99 dollars. It is a 2" 38 Special now. I have no use for the 38 S&W cartridge.

305081

[bedbugbilly]

While I like S & W and own some vintage K frames, I'm far from an "expert". You say no "V" (as Victory Models were marked) but Lanyard Ring . . . something sticks in my mind about a batch of K frames used by Hong Kong Police at one time - IIRC, they were equipped with Lanyard Rings . Crown and "BNP" - British National Police? You might try some googling on it and see what comes up. You can always go over to the S & W site and post some photos and an inquiry - you'll probably get a quick answer on it with some good info. Is it a $" barrel?

[AnthonyB]

Thanks for all the info! I hate the idea of losing this one as I learn more, but it will be what it is.

The serial number is 843xxx. There is what looks to be a “P” on the butt in front of the lanyard (serial number is to the rear).

Still reading about them.
Tony

[pietro]

Likely a stolen gun.

Exactly........

[Outpost75]

The BNP stands for Birmingham Nitro Proof. The .767" is the case length, which indicates the .38 S&W not .38 Special. The 3-1/2 tons is the breech thrust proof pressure in Imperial British Long Tons, using an oiled case in their base crushed system. Not psi.

The sights on these guns are regulated for 178-grain Mk2 ball at 625+/- 25 fps. US .38 S&W ammo can be used, but point of impact will be 3-4" low at 25 yards unless the front sight was dressed down to re-zero.

[AnthonyB]

Outpost, I was hoping you would see this one. I was about to search for your old posts on the 38 S&W. Can you recommend a proper mould?
Tony

[JoeJames]

I have a Victory in 380 200 a/k/a 38S&W. I tried some reloads for it with 148-160 grain bullets, and it shot even lower than what Outpost75 stated. Since I was not going to reload a bunch with the 200 grain bullet which it was regulated for, I got 100 200 grain round nose bullets from Matt's Bullets. With 2.3 grains of Bullseye and the 200 grain, it shot pretty close to point of aim at 15 yards. Per Outpost75 the Victory was regulated at 20 yards.

[snowwolfe]

Proving a gun is stolen isn’t as easy as most people think for the simple reason most owners don’t keep a good records of make, model, caliber, and serial number. If this information is not reported to the law the owner is screwed.

[JoeJames]

Proving a gun is stolen isn’t as easy as most people think for the simple reason most owners don’t keep a good records of make, model, caliber, and serial number. If this information is not reported to the law the owner is screwed.

May be kind of like the old saying about real estate - "location, location, location". I don't know where the OP lives, but, shoot, it might be more relevant, as far as its being a stolen gun, if he lived in one of the Blue Northern cities like Chicago, Illinois, or Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Not so much if he lived in say Philadelphia, Mississippi.

[Thumbcocker]

Yup. Nobody steals stuff in the South.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-most-burglaries-in-the-us.html

[JoeJames]

Ok, steal a gun in Chicago, get caught, get released on no bail policy, steal another gun, etc. Steal a gun in Philadelphia, Mississippi, get caught go to jail ...

[Jtarm]

You know two things to never buy at gas stations is the Sushi or cheap guns. Just Saying ;)

Or hard-luck stories.

Stick with Slim Jims & Moonpies. They never go bad.

[rintinglen]

Should be a 5 bbl.,

[AnthonyB]

Fellas, thanks to all for the info on the revolver. It is a five inch 38 S&W in amazingly good shape.

As for the legal issues, I appreciate the concern.
Tony

[jonp]

https://www.hotgunz.com/

Pre-War N frame.

Year/Beginning Serial

1908….. 1-------------1926….. 25000
1909….. 2050----------1927….. 28500
1910….. 5000----------1928….. 29500
1911….. 7050----------1929….. 30000
1912….. 9100----------1930….. 34000
1913….. 11150---------1931….. 36000
1914….. 13200---------1932….. 38375
1915….. 15250---------1933….. 41200
1916….. 15500---------1934….. 43350
1917….. 16000---------1935….. 45500
1918-1919 None--------1936….. 47200
1920….. 16200---------1937….. 48700
1921….. 16300---------1938….. 52000
1922….. 18400---------1939….. 57200
1923….. 19600---------1940….. 59000
1924….. 20800---------1941….. 62350
1925….. 22000---------1942-1945 None

Post-War S Series N frames:

S62,489 – S67,999……..1946 - Early 1947
S68,000 – S71,999……….Late 1947 – Early 1948
S72,000 – S72,499……….Late 1948 - Early 1949
S72,500 – S74,999……….Late 1949 – Early 1950
S75,000 – S80,499……….Late 1950 – Early 1951
S80,500 – S85,999……….Late 1952 – Early 1952
S86,000 – S94,999…….…Late 1952 – Early 1953
S95,000 – S102,999…….Late 1953 – Early 1954
S103,000 – S139,999……Late 1954 – Early 1955*
S140,000 – S149,999….Late 1955 – Early 1956
S150,000 – S175,999……Late 1956 – Early 1957
S176,000 – S181,999……Late 1957 – Early 1958
S182,000 – S194,499……Late 1958 – Early 1959
S194,500 – S206.999……Late 1959 – Early 1960
S207,000 – S219,999……Late 1960 – Early 1961
S220,000 – S227,999……Late 1961 – Early 1962
S228,000 – S231,999……Late 1962 – Early 1963
S232,000 – S235.999……Late 1963 – Early 1964
S236,000 – S257,999……Late 1964 – Early 1965
S258,000 – S261,999……Late 1965 – Early 1966
S262,000 – S289,999……Late 1966 – Early 1967
S290,000 – S304,999……Late 1967 – Early 1968
S305,000 – S329,999……Late 1968 – Early 1969
S330,000 – S333,454……Late 1969 – Early 1970


*Note that a number of N frames with serials in the S138000-S140000 range (and the range may be wider either way) are seen that were shipped much later than the serial would suggest should be the case. In one known example a gun with serial S136431 was not shipped until June of 1958. It's possible that a large block of serial numbers that appear to be from 1954-55 were not actually used until 1957-58. It at least one case a gun has a 5-screw serial and was built as a 4-screw gun.


N Series N Frames:

N1 – N60,000………….......1970-72
N60,001 – N 190,000…...1972-74
N190,001 – N430,000…...1975 – 77
N430.001 – N 550,000…..1978
N550,001 – N580,000….. 1979
N580,001 – N790,000…...1980
N790,001 – N932,999...…1980-83

Post-War S Series K Frames:

S811,120 – S999,999…….1946 – 48

C Series K Frames: (Fixed Sight Models)

C1 - C233,999………….....1948 – 52
C236,004 – C261,483…….1953
C277,555 – C314,031….…1954 – 56
C402,924 – C405,018…….1957
C405,019 – C429,740…..1958 – 59
C429,741 – C474,148…….1960
C474,149 – C622,699…….1961 – 62
C622,700 – C810,532…….1963 – 65
C810,533 – C999,999…..1966 – 67

D Series K Frames: (Fixed Sight Models)

D1 – D90,000…………….....1968
D90,001 – D330,000……..1969 -70
D330,001 – D420,000………1971 – Early 72
D420,001 – D510,000………Late 1972 – Early 73
D510,001 – D659,901………Late 1973 – Early 1974
D659.902 – D75000………..Late 1974 – Early 1975
D750,001 – D870,000………Late 1975 – Early 1976
D870,001 – D999,999………Late 1976 – Early 1977
2D00001 - 2D80,000……….1977
2D80,001 – 2D99,999………1978
4D00001 – 6D10,000……….1979
6D10,0001 – 7D10,000……1980
7D10,001 – 9D44,500…..1981
9D44,501 – 17D8,900………1982
17D8,901 – 21D0883……….1983

K Series K Frames (Adjustable Sight Models)

K101 – K614……………......1946
K615 – K18,731…………....1947
K18,732 – K73,121……..…1948
K73,122 – K84,149……..…1949
K84,150 – K104,047…...1950
K104,048 – K136,690...1951
K136,691 – K175,637...1952
K175,638 – K210,095...1953
K210,096 – K231,255...1954
K231,256 – K266,154...1955
K266,155 – K288,988...1956
K288,989 – K317,822...1957
K317,823 – K350,547...1958
K350,548 – K386,804...1959
K386,805 – K429,894...1960
K429,895 – K468,098...1961
K468,099 – K515,478...1962
K515,479 – K553,999....1963
K555,000 – K605.877....1964
K605,878 – K658.986....1965
K658,987 – K715,996....1966
K715,997 – K779.162....1967
K779,163 – K848,781....1968
K848,782 – K946,391....1969
K946,382 – K999,999....1970
1K1 – 1K39,500.........1970
2K1 – 2K22.037.........1970
1K39,501 – 1K999,999...1971
2K22,038 – 2K55,996....1971
3K1 – 3K73,962.........1971
2K55,997 – 2K99,999....1972
3K31,280 – 5K6,616.....1972
4K1 – 4K1,627..........1972
4K1,628 – 4K54,104.....1973
5K6,617 – 5K73,962.....1973
4K54,105 – 4K99,999....1974
5K73,963 – 6K58,917....1974
7K1 – 7K26,043.........1974
7K26,044 – 7K70,577....1975
6K98,918 – 8K20,763....1975
8K20,764 – 9K1.........1975
8K20,000 – 9K100,000...1975
9K1,001 – 9K99,999.....1976
10K001 – 24K9,999......1977
25K001 – 56K9,999......1978 – 79
57K001 – 91K6,800......1980
91K6,801 – 124K000.....1981
125K000 – 269K9,999....1982
270K000 – 311K273......1983

1980 Three-Letter Prefix Series Begins at AAA00


I bought a very nice Colt Gold Cup from a guy in a bar that needed to pay his propane bill. Girlfriend at the time who was working the bar called me on it as I told her I was always interested in firearms if someone needed money, described it to me and I told her to take it for $250. Ended up $400 but considered it a good deal for an almost new one.

[MT Gianni]

It should have matching serial numbers that are small on the bottom of the bbl flat and on the cylinder. Many of these have been cheaply converted to 38 Special by running a reamer in. This gets you a mark on the brass and keeps a 0.360" throat. If a special brass will not chamber consider it a plus.