38-55 Hi-Vel. Load

[versa-06]

Been watching some Buffalo Bore 38-55 loads on youtube & the 1900 plus velocity with a 250 or 255 grain cast boolit is dooable. One Henry video in a 20' barrel got 20 fps faster than the box quoted. Anybody have this recipe?

[Rapier]

They might have used Star Lne brass which can be longer, with a deep cut chamber might give you something like a 38-65. All you would need is an action to take the added pressure. The 94 XTR is built for the added pressure of the 375 Win and I understand works with the long 38-55 brass.

[ascast]

Are you talking black or smokeless?

[versa-06]

Smokeless, I don't think you could fit any where near enough black in the case to get close to this velocity. Be nice if you could!

[Texas by God]

For filling your deer tags with one shot? 250 gr cast at 1900 fps should go through at least 3 deer if they are lined up correctly [emoji3]

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[gunseller]

My guess would be a lot of IMR3031. A strong action like a Marlin 336. A 375 case is 1/10 of an inch shorter than a 38-55 case. Or you could just start with a 375.

[725]

I've seen the bigger - better - faster, but have to agree with warren5421. The basic .38-55 is a marvel. Just 'cause we like as is, doesn't mean you have to. Go for it and have fun. Just make sure the action is designed for the increased pressure when chasing bigger velocities. Let us know the outcome. Always like to hear about what others do.

[skeettx]

In my Ruger #1 factory 38-55,

I use 30 grains of 3031 under the cast
bullet of .382 diameter. Wow, great load
Mike

[versa-06]

I'm not looking to Hot-Rod either the Henry or the Win 94AE, Just looking for maximum performance out of these rifles. Not any Ruger Only, or Browning Winchester Only loads out there. A stiff 30-30 pressure would be fine but there's not much pressure load data available. It would be nice if I could measure the pressure on my own loads. But what would that cost?

[Good Cheer]

Just as with the black powder 9.5mm Mauser, it's a very good diameter to get good performance on deer sized game along with a relatively flat trajectory with lead boolits.

[barkerwc4362]

i have killed 200 - 225lbs boars at 125 yards with an iron sighted 26" barreled Marlin 1893 with a 1350 - 1400fps 265gr cast load. One was a Texas heart shot. That load using Winchester brass, Winchester LR primer, RCBS 265 gr cast and IMR4895 will cluster 5 of them into 1 - 1 1/4" at 100 yards if I do my part. In a light carbine or rifle recoil from that bullet weight at 1700 - 1800 fps might cause flinching or inconsistent barrel harmonics. My 26" light round barrel does not like heavy loads. Grouping size starts to grow rapidly at the upper end and zero varies with barrel temperature.
Bill

[missionary5155]

I would think with a case of 4F Goex to could get to the 1400's. I would like to try a 30" barreled 38-55 some day with BP.

[Ramjet-SS]

Absolutely agree no need for those velocities for even as large as moose. Load for accuracy not for velocities. I have learned over my years that less recoil equals better ability to place shots and shoot accurately. A good WFN GC cast of lead will anchor any game in North America when the boolit is placed correctly. Prices on powder and primers in my opinion dictate midrange loads with larger calibers. Economics my friends…..:lovebooli

[RickinTN]

In my Ruger #1 factory 38-55,

I use 30 grains of 3031 under the cast
bullet of .382 diameter. Wow, great load
Mike

Hello There!
I finally found someone who has another of the 281 of these Ruger made. Mine has only been fired about 10 rounds. I used 31 grains of 3031 with the Speer 235 grain bullet. Going to work with it and cast soon.
Enjoying the thread, and as others state, the 38-55 in factory guise is hard to beat!
Rick

[Texas by God]

Lyman #45 shows 1500fps loads with 4227 and cast.
For my 94 38-55, I like the Lee bullet with 23grs of 4198. Probably around 13-1400 fps.
Any stiffer and the steel buttplate starts checkering my shoulder......

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[versa-06]

O.K I've gotten a 21gr IMR SR-4759 round just over 1600 fps (Lee 250 gr boolit), Anybody tried a larger charge than this & or know pressures on heavier loads? Next I have 3 Lyman manuals (Older) 38-55 that show 35.0 gr Imr-3031 w same weight bullet. I have 2 newer Lyman manuals that show 32.0 gr 3031 max for 375 Win. Anybody tried the 35 gr load in their 38-55. Or have any knowledge where the pressure is on these rounds?

[versa-06]

P.S. I have a great caution with the 38-55 looking at pressure signs, may go too far with little to no sign. At least that is my caution.

[BLAHUT]

Why ? With 250 gr. bullet in pure lead at 1200 fps. and a proper placed shot will bring anything on the continent down for keeps. And is softer shooting ?

[kenton]

Hodgdon has data for H322 with a 255 gr Barnes JFP at 1830 FPS. One might try extrapolating data from that if they are bold.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

[versa-06]

I am quickly coming to realize that most if not all higher velocity loads are being launched from 24-30 inch barrels. But still there has to be a chart of loads with pressures displayed for more modern rifles or should I say ought to be. There is a gap between published data that is acceptable for old rifles & the capabilities of the newer rifles. As many newer 38-55's are being sold one would think some so called "Ruger only" data would come to surface. I know "Lawyers".

[kenton]

I am not sure what you are asking for? SAAMI max pressure for 38-55 is 30,000 CUP (page 21 in attached PDF or 33 using the PDF software numbers).
https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299.4-CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

All the loads listed on Hogdgon's website are 28,200 CUP or below. 30,000 CUP isn't "Ruger only loads", they are standard pressure loads. I ass-u-me that any other published loads would be below the 30,000 CUP level unless designated otherwise.



That said Buffalo Bore's ammo seems to be loaded to 38,000 CUP because "30-30 is loaded to 38,500 CUP".( 38,000 cup according to the attached PDF, 32 special as well, pages 29 and 31 in PDF) I guess since the 30-30 is a necked down 38-55 and chambered in the same rifles one could follow that logic, if they wanted to take that risk.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=159

Quote from Buffalo Bore:
"Our 38-55 ammo is designed to work in all 38-55 chambered firearms made with modern metallurgy for smokeless powder. It operates at 38,000 CUP—the 30-30 Winchester operates at an average max. pressure of 38,500 CUP. For those who are not aware, the 30-30 case is simply a necked down 38-55 casing."

[kenton]

Sorry, I reread your post and realized you were not asking how to avoid "Ruger only loads" you were trying to find them.

I will see my self out. :x

[versa-06]

I figured if Buffalo Bore & their attorneys feel safe with the higher pressures after many rounds being tested, Then the newer weapons built to these same standards would be safe. -06

[versa-06]

Well I've found that about all fairly current loads were tested with 24-30 inch barrels. Mine are 20" so I've settled on a 1650 fps load for now through this hunting season.

[Maine1]

seems like many are shooting unique and 2400 in the 38-55, getting 1100-1200 FPS or better and making hits at longer range too.
38-55 does indeed seem to be a goldilocks caliber.
just need to find some more brass

[versa-06]

Maine1; I have been able to get brass for both 375 Win & 38-55 from Starline Brass. It may say back- order but put your order in & it shouldn't be long to wait. My longest wait was about 3 weeks.

[PositiveCaster]

As mentioned above - I think - you can make cases by fire-forming .30-30 brass. A tightly twisted wad of TP stuck in the neck over a load of a faster powder like Unique will blow out the case close enough to be usable. You’ll have to square off the mouth and play with the charge to get good fill-out and the cases will be a bit short, but it does work. Many years ago when .38-55 brass was extremely hard to come by, I made dozens of cases this way. Not ideal, but another option to get the rifle shooting.







.

[725]

PositiveCaster

Sure is easy to make .38-55 brass. Just made a couple hundred. Time consuming, but if you need it you need it. ! Anneal ! your .30-30 brass first. I used 9.5 grains of Unique, packed 1/4 sheet of toilet paper, back filled with cream of wheat, covered w/ 1/4 sheet of TP, packed tight. Point straight up in the air and fire. All safety measures required as you are, after all, firing a gun. A few culls may occur - just toss them.

[Bitman]

Hello There!
I finally found someone who has another of the 281 of these Ruger made. Mine has only been fired about 10 rounds. I used 31 grains of 3031 with the Speer 235 grain bullet. Going to work with it and cast soon.
Enjoying the thread, and as others state, the 38-55 in factory guise is hard to beat!
Rick

I too have one of the Ruger No. 1's in 38-55. I love it.
I shoot 29 grains of IMR-3031 with a 268 grain cast lead RNFP-GC. It will put 5 shots touching at 50 yds.

[jreidthompson1]

It would be nice if I could measure the pressure on my own loads. But what would that cost?About 800 dollars

https://www.shootingsoftware.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=RSI&Category_Code=PT

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[versa-06]

Good Information. Thanks! -06

[Rapier]

You can make 38-55 brass from 375 Win brass. You can not make proper 38-55 brass from the 30-30 brass, it is considerably too short when altered.

I have discussed their brass directly with the owner of Starline, They make one brass formula and one brass formula only, capable of 65K. They do not make low pressure brass for low pressure guns. To do so would not make economic sense to them.
So as an example, their 225 Win Mag brass is not necessary, for pressures, to make the JDJ cases, or Merrill cases either, you can use whatever rimmed case that meets size dimensions necessary for sizing, fire forming and trimming to correct length
Just because you do so, shoot short brass, does not make it correct. I get these guns in frequently to "fix" when they stop chambering factory rounds or the ammunition they were given when they bought the gun no longer functions in the gun.
I just bought a gun real cheap, as a direct result of shooting .030 miss cut brass, too short.

[bigmedcin]

From my Henry 38-55, 20 inch, Starline short brass, Lee mold dropped 262grs (approx. 14 hardness), powder coated and sized to .379..... with Reloader 7 they reach 1825 fps, could go a bit faster, maybe into the 1900s, but the case life at 1800 is more reasonable. Into water jugs or wet paper @ 50 yard, the mushroom is what you would expect from say a 35 cal corelokt or Interlock! only shot a couple deer with that particular round, exit hole about the size of a quarter and the projectile still going.

[versa-06]

I bought one of those 38-55 Henry's in brass & would have preferred the steel (Brass too glossy in the woods) But brass was the only thing available. & I appreciate the load info. I use the same LEE boolit but mine fall out at 251-252 gr. Shoots good though, I like my Henry & if I get a 45 Colt it will prob. be a Henry.

[Digital Dan]

Never thought the .38-55 needed higher velocity. Have a Highwall with 28" barrel, shoot 300 gr 30:1 alloy with BP. It will put 10 in a 6" group offhand at 100 yards. It's fair to say that stuff shot with that load doesn't go far. Have not run the load over a chronograph but guess it's around 1,200 fps +/-.

[pworley1]

I think what you are looking for would be fine in a strong action. I can get there, but I shoot mine in a 375 Winchester Xtr.

[versa-06]

I have an 375 XTR also & it is extremely accurate for a lever gun. But then again with hand loads in the 38 cal. range I have grown to expect good accuracy. Along with the Henry I also have a 94ae that JES re-bored to 38-55 & another real shooter. I've got a load using IMR SR 4759 I got out of an old manual that I have +p'd that gets me 1650 fps'ish with good accuracy. & the 375 XTR using AA-2015 & WC-846. But I've not yet reached a good pressure in the 38-55 at 1800-1850 fps.

[versa-06]

P.S. may have to find some Reloader-7

[ascast]

I think 20 fps might be an error or oversight in chrony placement, like your OP says " 20' " , really? a 20 foot barrel? In any case, I would not get excited about 20 fps.

[Head Shot]

Hello:
Or they are actually using the 375 winchester case which is same dimensions other than yes its a tad shorter but case walls at critical areas are thicker to withstand higher pressure a 38-55 case cant.
Ok heres the clarification read it twice - Dont get into an oopsy here with this info.
True a 375 case is shorter than a 38-55 and will chamber in a 38-55 but if running the hotter loads in a 375 case in a 38-55 win chamber then bear in mind that the gun needs to be something like a single shot H&R/NEF Handi Rifle or Ruger #1 or #3 rifle thats considered a high wall for these hotter loads.
Think browning makes a drop block single shot too just cant recall the model number now.
Lets just for the sake of an example use the terms low load as in trapdoor and med load as in lever actions and high power loads as in hi wall bbls.
You can load to any of these in a normal 375 win case but need to evaluate your guns chamber strength as to type of action and whether its a single shot or a lever action that may not take the hi pressures under fire that might damage internal parts ect.
So what is a hi pressure hi wall load when it comes to a 38-55 you might wonder.
Well lets call a hi pressure load for a 38-55 winchester the 375 winchester case loaded to max speed in this explanation being shot in a 38-55 win guns chamber.
You wont to my knowledge find trap door / lever action / Hi Wall Ruger type info listed as 38-55 win or the 375 win in your books but will see that listed as such for the 45-70 govt cartridge as an example.
DO NOT ASSUME THAT YOU CAN USE 45-70 GOVT LOAD INFO IN THE 38-55 WIN OR THE 375 WIN= JUST AN EXAMPLE.
I personally since i own a 38-55 win in a single shot handi rifle do shoot the 375 win case at higher pressures since its a hi wall type pressure gun - but thats my gun be sure to evaluate your guns type and pressure ability first before doing this.
I probably left out a answer to a question or two and if you have questions feel free to ask ill give you my opinion or answer and state if its gospel or my opinion and if its my practice but you in the end make your own decision as to if it applies to your wants and safety.
Head Shot

[BoBSavage]

The 38-55 use to be divided into three groups, Black Powder, High Velocity (38-55 H-V) and High Power (38-55 H-P)

Here is an example of the 1920's/1930's smokeless loads. Anything less than 1,700fps and about 30,000cup was considered High Velocity/Low Pressure and everything beyond 1,700fps and over 30,000cup was considered High Power/High Pressure.

IMR No. 16
38-55 H-V/255gr/29gr/1,594fps
38-55 H-P/255/32gr/1,700fps


316387

Three types of powders can be found in J. R. Mattern’s book “Handloading Ammunition” publish in 1926;


Pyro - Cooler burning, longer barrel life. Rifle barrels tested “until destruction” showed that after only six thousand to eight thousand rounds, 600 yard shots “were only two to three inches larger than at first”. Upon twenty thousand shots to thirty thousand shots, the bullets would no longer hit the target. Powder examples would include Dupont Bulk Shotgun, Dupont No. 80, Dupont No. 3, Dupont No. 20,
Nitrocellulose - Powder examples would be Dupont No. 5, IMR No. 1204,
Nitroglycerin (Double-Based) - This powder burns much hotter than Pyro. It is reported that it would take up to 1,000 rounds shot in the soft barrels before accuracy was affected, while others would say up to 3,000 rounds…of which then accuracy was only affected up to three or four inches. Powder examples would be Hercules Lightning, Hercules W. A., Hercules Sharpshooter, Hercules Unique, Hercules Bullseye, Hercules Infallible,
Tin In Powders - Before the introduction of gilding jacketed military bullets, Some powders added tin in the powder. The tin would mix with the gasses and coat the riffling. These powders added the “½” after the powder number, such as Dupont No. 17 ½, and Dupont No. 15 ½…discontinuing the No. 16 and No. 15 powders.


Powder burning balance points;

Dupont No. 20 - 48,000 lbs
Hercules Lightning - 30,000lbs
Hercules Sharpshooter - 18,000lbs
Hercules W. A. - 36,000lbs
Hercules Unique - 11,000lbs
Dupont No. 80 - 16,000lbs
Hercules Bullseye - 9,000lbs
Hercules Infallible - 7,500lbs
No. 1204 - 18,000lbs

Winchester comments on such a question in 1899, as is found in Recreation Magazine, Vol 11, page 298

Our 38-55 rifle will not be injured when 38-55 smokeless cartridges of our make are used. The bullet will not harm the rifling. Smokeless powder is more difficult to clean than black. Where smokeless powder cartridges are made to take the place of black powder cartridges in guns which were intended for black powder, such smokeless powder is used as will give the same pressures and same velocities as were obtained with black powder in the black powder cartridges intended for the gun originally. We do the best we can to have the combination give the same velocity as before, which it would be difficult to get same accuracy.


The Winchester manufacturing company reassures the shooter that all is fine with shooting such appropriate low-pressure loads in black powder arms.

In a 1903 Western Field, The Sportsman's Magazine of the West · Volume 2, we hear more about this...

This 1903 article introduces the new High Velocity cartridges by Winchester for the Model 92’ and Model 86’. Noted is the part about…
” A feature of all the high velocity cartridges is that they can be used by persons who dislike the high-power small caliber cartridges on account of their great range.”

Here is a 1904 Western Field, The Sportsman’s Magazine of the West · Volume 4 publication.


“SOME NEW MARLIN DEPARTURES.

Interesting announcement comes from The Marlin Fire Arms Co., New Haven, Conn. concerning a new line of goods the company is marketing this season, which will attract wide attention among a large class of sportsmen and lovers of the rifle.


The company is now arranging a line of their famous repeating rifles, Model 1893, to be known among the trade Grade “B”. These rifles will be in every respect the same as the regular Model 1893 with the exception that the barrels will be made of the highest obtainable grade of soft gun barrel steel instead of their “Special Smokeless Steel”. The intention is to meet the large demand for a high-class, carefully made arm on the part of many shooters who are not sufficiently interested in the smokeless steel barrels to pay for the extra cost. The new line is, of course, not intended for high power smokeless ammunition and its use in this grade is not advised by the makers: only black powder ammunition and equivalent loads such as low power smokeless should be used. The 32-40 and 38-55 sizes only will be made in this grade.


The line will consist of the carbine with 15-inch round barrel weighing 6 1/4 pounds and carrying five shots, or with 20-inch round barrel weighing 6 3/4 pounds and carrying seven shots. With the regular round barrels in 26-inch to 32-inch lengths the rifle may be had weighing 7 to 7 3/4 pounds. Octagon barrels are furnished 26-inches to 32-inches long the rifles weighing 7 1/2 pounds to 8 1/2 pounds. These rifles can be furnished in short half or full magazine. They accommodate a wide range of cartridges and all the popular ammunition with the exception noted above regarding high power smokeless powder.”

I thought this might interest some of you guys.

[versa-06]

BoBSavage; That is a very good read, & very informative. I would like to have these printings as I am very fond of the 38-55 Win. Thanks for your time & efforts! -06

[Cast10]

I haven’t made a game kill yet, buy my new Miroku/Winchester 1894 Sporter, with 24” barrel, likes 23gr of IMR-4198 using the Lee 250gr. This load, in my rifle, clocks 1577fps on chrony. Work up all loads accordingly.

Reference;

22.0 - 1489fps
22.5 - 1530fps
23.0 - 1577fps
23.5 - 1605fps
24.0 - 1659fps

[BoBSavage]

If looking at Mattern's 1926 load data;

Soft Steel Barrels
Low Velocity/Low Pressure - 255gr/lead/48gr/Fg black powder/1,321fps/20,000lbs (cup) (Black Powder Load)
Low Velocity/Low Pressure - 255gr/L or J/15.4/Sharpshooter/1,324fps/15,500lbs (cup) (note smokeless pressure is lower than black powder pressures)
High Velocity/Low Pressure - 255gr/L or J/24.1gr/Lightning/1,590fps/22,600lbs (cup) Winchester High Velocity Load

Special Steel Barrels
High Velocity/High Pressure - 255gr/L or J/32gr/No. 16/1,700fps/27,330lbs (cup) "H. P. Load" High Power Load
High Velocity/High Pressure - 255gr/L or J/34gr/No. 16/1,840fps/37,500lbs (cup) (max load for Nickel Steel barrels)
There are several other loads that are 1,899fps and 1,850fps that are listed as 40,000lbs (cup) and 39,000lbs (cup)

Sharpe's 1937 manual shows loads only up to 28,000lbs (cup), that are good for "all rifles", but he notes not to exceed 25,000lbs in "old rifles" (good for High Velocity Loads) and 35,000lbs is fine for new rifles (High Power Loads). However, the difference is the lack of an explanation on why.

The "why" (special steel barrels vs soft steel barrels) is noted in my first reply and in the example above...a complete understanding lost over time, by the late 1930's.

[versa-06]

My 2 38-55's to date are all new models. Would like to see some +p loads for these rifles. But the lawyers have nipped that in the bud.:violin:

[BoBSavage]

My 2 38-55's to date are all new models. Would like to see some +p loads for these rifles. But the lawyers have nipped that in the bud.:violin:

The difference in load data from back then to now is the use of modern powders with a "start load" and a "max load".

Again, the Three Groups;


Black Powder Load - Low Velocity/Low Pressure - 255gr/lead/48gr/Fg black powder/1,321fps/20,000lbs (cup)
H. V. (High Velocity Load) - High Velocity/Low Pressure - 255gr/L or J/24.1gr/Lightning/1,590fps/22,600lbs (cup)
H. P. (High Power Load) - High Velocity/High Pressure - 255gr/L or J/32gr/No. 16/1,700fps/27,330lbs (cup)


Compared to modern data
Saami Max Pressure - 30,000cup

Starting Loads - Low Velocity/Low Pressure
Max Loads - High Velocity/High Power, pending powder used

An example from Lyman's 49th

255gr JFNSP/AA-5744/23gr/1,521fps/27,900cup. This max load mixes two groups, High Velocity or H. V. (1,500fps) and High Power or H. P. (28,000cup)
249gr 375248/IMR-4198/24gr/1,497/16,700cup. This starting load mixes two groups, High Velocity or H. V. (1,500fps) and Low Pressure (20,000cup)
335gr 378674/Trail Boss/8gr/763fps/27,600cup. This max load mixes two groups, Low Velocity (763fps) and H. P. or High Power (27,600cup).


So I guess ya have to ask yourself, what would a +P load be?

Since the max pressures of this already "High Power" cartridge is 30,000cup. The 37,500cup I mentioned in a previous post was reportedly the max for Nickle Barrels, but there is no way this can be done without testing for pressures of a particular load. Thus, loading for "Velocity" (1,840fps) can not be safely done without possibly exceeding 40,000cup.