Is there a source of cap and ball revolver that work right out of the box perfectly?

[barnetmill]

Is there a source for quality replica colt cap and ball revolvers that do not need to be fixed out of the box. I go on to youtube and see all sorts horror stories of broken springs, faulty arbors, improperly bored cylinders, etc.
I would be willing to pay a bit more to be sure of getting a gun made to speck out of the box and not have to spend time getting it fixed.
I am interested in getting the .44 colt army model 1860.

[LAGS]

I had a Colt Second Generation 1860.
It seemed Perfect.
But that was a higher dollar gun , built in the '70's.
From what I have seen,
Almost All BP revolvers seem to have some issues.
Not as much in design , but just Quality Control.

[stubshaft]

I have had fairly good luck with Pietta's, but for what you ask for the ONLY C&B revolver that is goof proof right out of the box is a Ruger Old Army!!!

[Nobade]

Yes, Ruger Old Army. Everything else needs attention.

[JuliettDeltaGolf]

If you can afford it, buy any new revolver you like and send it to a reputable smith to have it worked over before you use it. I've heard he can have long wait times, but Mike Brackett of Goons Gun Works does phenomenal work, and Gary Barnes of Cartridge Conversion .com is good too. Out of either, you'll get a gun that's more reliable than an original.

[HWooldridge]

I bought a Remington 1858 from Dixie and had no issues whatsoever. I also bought a Uberti-made Colt 1860 replica and it worked just fine.

It's just luck of the draw - people who don't have problems probably don't put up Youtube videos.

[hoodat]

The one I had was a 36 cal Remington Navy, sold under the Lyman name, and I think made by Uberti. Bought it in the seventies. It was great quality and accuracy, and I never had a hitch. I've since sold it to a Civil War Reinactor, and kind of wish I hadn't.

In your search, you might keep your eyes open for the Lyman brand. jd

[freakonaleash]

I have dozens of them. None of them were faulty out of the box.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have Pietta's - 3 1860 .44's, an 1861 .36, a couple 1851's -.44 and .36, a couple 1862 5 shot .36's, a little .31 'Pony Express' an 1858 Remington .44 - no problems with any as far as basic functionality, load and shoot without incidence out of the box. I might have a Uberti or two in there but no real differences. I do have a brass 1851 that has severe cylinder end shake -given to me used. Stay away from the brass frames - depends on what you plan on casual shooting, most are fine. Might need some tuning for SASS kind of competition.

[Soundguy]

all the uberti and pietta wheelguns I bought were 'shootable' out of the box.. on some I did some improvements either with arbor shims or changed out nipples or polishing the cylinder holes.. but all were shootable out of the box.

[Jackrabbit1957]

Here's the big issues, Uberti is going to have the short arbor, and possibly late timing. Pietta fixed the arbor but lately I've seen a few with the wedge slot in the arbor not being wide enough. Also seen a few that the arbor was too long! On top of that toss in late timing on about 80% of the Piettas. Taylor's claims to weed out the ones that have problems but if it's Uberti the arbor is short. Mike Brackett is a great guy to send stuff to but he is backed up considerably. I offer tuning as well at a reasonable price, if you want details feel free to private message me.

[bedbugbilly]

You kind of make it sound like we should all be careful about shooting a C & B revolver "right out of the box" . . . OMG . . . there HAS to be something wrong with it . . . and of course . . . and after all . . . you went right to the supreme authority . . . youtube . . . where anybody with a video camera is a star.

Seriously . . . don't go looking for trouble with a cap and ball revolver er "right out of the box". Yes . . . like any brand of ANY handgun . . . there could be an issue . . . . that's why there are warranties.

Some folks like to "slick 'em up" or "tune them up" . . . . no different the someone who buys a car and then finds things wrong with it that need "fixing" . . . when actually it runs just fine.

I have had a great number of C & B revolvers in the last 60 some years of many different brands . . . yea some did need a higher front sight 'cause they have a tendency to shoot high . . . . Pietta and Uberti are both good revolvers and they provide many, many people with a lot of fun and enjoyment "right out of the box".

I have purchased probably a dozen different C & B revolvers in the last five years - both Pietta and Uberti . . and had no issues with any of them. Remington and Colt clones.

If you are worried about getting a "clunker" . . . then go buy it in person and look it all over and feel the action before you buy it . . . no different that purchasing any other type of handgun. If you are going to shoot competition with one . . . then either learn how to "tun it up or pay someone who does it professionally to do it for you . . . . but it's not "tuned up guns that win competitions . . . it's the person holding it.

Can a C & B revolver be made to shoot "better? Of course . . . but that all depends on how much you want to put into it - a throat job . . . . installing new sights if yours spent shoot to POA . . . . or y9u can do it like our ancestors did who considered them "tools" and not "play things" . . . they learned how their revolvers shot and learned where to aim at various distances to het what they needed to. In the early 60s, I hunted bunnies with a off brand '51 Navy . . . no where near the quality of today's Piettas and Ubertis . . . but I took my share of rabbits with it and even a few tree rats.

Maybe I just have a lucky rabbit's foot . . . but I have had NO issues of any kind with any of the Piett or Uberti C & B revolvers I've purchased in the last several decades - pocket models,
Armies or Navies - We're all different and I guess we all "expect" different things. Buy one, clean it up, shoot it, take care of it and then if there is something that "bothers" you . . . fix it to your individual standards . . . . but have fun with it . . . that's what it's all about. Good luck.

[Electrod47]

Yes, Ruger Old Army. Everything else needs attention.

10-4, The only one bullet proof.

But, remember Cap and Ball guns when they were brand new and handed to the troops during the "unpleasantness" Had broken springs and other stuff right out of the box. People just dealt with it.

[Gtek]

ROA out of the box for sure here, BUT---- I wish they would have designed in a little longer bolt carry delaying the drop into ramp entrance instead of on the side of my pretty stainless cylinder. Look at all of them, but I am going to work on that!

[crandall crank]

Again, Ill have to say it "Ruger Old Army". Plus you can buy a replacement cylinder to shoot brass cartridges also.

[barnetmill]

Again, Ill have to say it "Ruger Old Army". Plus you can buy a replacement cylinder to shoot brass cartridges also.

If you want a Ruger old army, it will have to be second hand: Produced 1972 to 2008
But they will apparently handle smokeless power being built with the same metallurgy as their other revolvers.

The revolver was tested by loading each chamber to capacity with Bullseye smokeless powder and a lead ball. While this might result in catastrophic failure in other firearms, the Old Army proved to be strong enough to handle the pressure
Relative to cartridge conversion, that does not appeal to me at all. What is not clear is if the old army ruger will handle conical bullets or not since I would want to use paper cartridges.

[Jackrabbit1957]

You kind of make it sound like we should all be careful about shooting a C & B revolver "right out of the box" . . . OMG . . . there HAS to be something wrong with it . . . and of course . . . and after all . . . you went right to the supreme authority . . . youtube . . . where anybody with a video camera is a star.

Seriously . . . don't go looking for trouble with a cap and ball revolver er "right out of the box". Yes . . . like any brand of ANY handgun . . . there could be an issue . . . . that's why there are warranties.

Some folks like to "slick 'em up" or "tune them up" . . . . no different the someone who buys a car and then finds things wrong with it that need "fixing" . . . when actually it runs just fine.

I have had a great number of C & B revolvers in the last 60 some years of many different brands . . . yea some did need a higher front sight 'cause they have a tendency to shoot high . . . . Pietta and Uberti are both good revolvers and they provide many, many people with a lot of fun and enjoyment "right out of the box".

I have purchased probably a dozen different C & B revolvers in the last five years - both Pietta and Uberti . . and had no issues with any of them. Remington and Colt clones.

If you are worried about getting a "clunker" . . . then go buy it in person and look it all over and feel the action before you buy it . . . no different that purchasing any other type of handgun. If you are going to shoot competition with one . . . then either learn how to "tun it up or pay someone who does it professionally to do it for you . . . . but it's not "tuned up guns that win competitions . . . it's the person holding it.

Can a C & B revolver be made to shoot "better? Of course . . . but that all depends on how much you want to put into it - a throat job . . . . installing new sights if yours spent shoot to POA . . . . or y9u can do it like our ancestors did who considered them "tools" and not "play things" . . . they learned how their revolvers shot and learned where to aim at various distances to het what they needed to. In the early 60s, I hunted bunnies with a off brand '51 Navy . . . no where near the quality of today's Piettas and Ubertis . . . but I took my share of rabbits with it and even a few tree rats.

Maybe I just have a lucky rabbit's foot . . . but I have had NO issues of any kind with any of the Piett or Uberti C & B revolvers I've purchased in the last several decades - pocket models,
Armies or Navies - We're all different and I guess we all "expect" different things. Buy one, clean it up, shoot it, take care of it and then if there is something that "bothers" you . . . fix it to your individual standards . . . . but have fun with it . . . that's what it's all about. Good luck.

Sir, I am merely pointing out the faults that I've seen and fixed with these replica revolvers, I am not the definitive authority on them and never claimed to be. This being said, you decided to land on me with both feet. I have personally seen the aftermath of the short arbor problem on several of the big horse pistols so I pass along that experience as a heads up. If you just forked over 450.00 in your hard earned cash would you want your prize to try to destroy itself? And yes lots of folks buy these guns and never have a problem, does that mean you are the ultimate authority? Lighten up, will you. And by the way I never went to You tube to learn anything on these revolvers, my experience is gained the old fashioned way, by doing it and learning from it.

[dondiego]

Sir, I am merely pointing out the faults that I've seen and fixed with these replica revolvers, I am not the definitive authority on them and never claimed to be. This being said, you decided to land on me with both feet. I have personally seen the aftermath of the short arbor problem on several of the big horse pistols so I pass along that experience as a heads up. If you just forked over 450.00 in your hard earned cash would you want your prize to try to destroy itself? And yes lots of folks buy these guns and never have a problem, does that mean you are the ultimate authority? Lighten up, will you. And by the way I never went to You tube to learn anything on these revolvers, my experience is gained the old fashioned way, by doing it and learning from it.

I believe that Bedbug was referring to the original post and not to you at all. Relax.

[Gtek]

Thought about this one for a day and returning to original Post question. If wanting my 2 cents I would first say if you are serious, really serious about getting one is spend the time educating yourself prior. Every one of us knew nothing until we absorbed the knowledge by reading, doing, experiencing in no particular order. Learning the different platforms and then diving deeper into all the available information online now for that specific platform you will have a great head start compared to a uneducated purchase. You may find one manufacturer has had short arbors, some have had soft guts and touch as many as you can and try to get the feel and timing knowledge. You will read about nipple and cap marriages and all those issues. When you grab one and know what each click means and what just happened and why it happened, then look down pipe and make sure no crescents are seen at 9 or 3 on a clean cylinder hammer back. There are ways to fix arbor and barrel/cylinder gap issues if found to be an issue by multiple means later. I have found great pleasure in well timed, correctly fitted BP revolvers but I paid the piper. And the #1, no half cock back up, to full cock and then home! If serious a prior education is priceless.

[garbear]

Ruger Old Army

[Brokenbear]

OP I think you have to remember that a lot of the ups and downs from a production vs quality problems stand point have been exasperated by the loss of skilled armorers to Covid the last 18 months ..additionally wheel guns world over are still hand fitted and finished so loss of hands on skill for wheel guns is particularly hurtful
With that said I will say that I do believe that Taylor's Firearms issued Uberti's whether it is thru a dealer of Taylor's or from Taylor's themselves.. are of a better level of "effort" than a plain brown box Uberti
I would also suspect the same could maybe be said of Cimmaron issued Uberti's but having never had a Cimmaron Uberti I cannot say
I can say that I know for a fact that Taylor's has on staff full time armorers and will stand behind the product 100%
How do I know this was.. as a new shooter I was unaware pieces of percussion caps could and do occasionally enter the interior of a cap n ball and i had it happen my first outing locking up the 1860 Colt Army ..I bought the Uberti from one of Taylor's dealers and he had me call Taylor's ..
They sent a shipping label and turned the gun around in 2 days and the armorer wrote me a nice note saying "no charge" but included i a little clear plastic baggie with a chunk of percussion cap as my problem and a kind suggestion to disassemble for preventive maintenance from time to time ..
SO my best advice to you is if you want a product I KNOW is backed with based in the USA talent and action find yourself a Taylor's Cap n Ball pistol
Understand I am not saying there are not others who may be able to do the same but I can vouch for Taylor's

Bear

[warren5421]

The only guns to give me problems are all older imports. I will not say that the new gun will need work or that it won't, it is just the luck of the draw. I have shot Colt style open tops for about 65 years, have 20 sum now. I have never seen the need for a cap guard. I can not remember a cap falling in the action causing the hammer to give a light strake and not one of my guns have cap guards. A too light hammer spring is the reason for cap guards. All my guns have the hammer spring lighted some but the cap stays at the nipple. Some needed timed but not many. Most gunsmithing work done on C&B guns just puts money in the smiths pocket. I would say 70 % of the people having the action slicked up can't tell the difference from a factory action and a very good action job. If you are competing with C&B I know you want the lightest hammer spring that can set a cap of mandating the use of cap guards, that is a compition not working gun. You will not see a cap guard on most C&B pistols made by Sam Colt, yes a few are out there but not many. I think they were used by the Manhattan Pistol Co. to speed up delivery to Uncle during the 1860's.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

https://www.longhunt.com/web/index.php?page=cowboy-action-black-powder

If you give Jim a call he will make you a perfectly running precision cap and ball revolver.

I have a 61 Navy in the mail right now. If you want to be a precision shooter with these there's a very specific way to load them that is different than anything else you've most likely seen. Done correctly you'll be shocked at how accurate these guns can be.

[Jackrabbit1957]

The only guns to give me problems are all older imports. I will not say that the new gun will need work or that it won't, it is just the luck of the draw. I have shot Colt style open tops for about 65 years, have 20 sum now. I have never seen the need for a cap guard. I can not remember a cap falling in the action causing the hammer to give a light strake and not one of my guns have cap guards. A too light hammer spring is the reason for cap guards. All my guns have the hammer spring lighted some but the cap stays at the nipple. Some needed timed but not many. Most gunsmithing work done on C&B guns just puts money in the smiths pocket. I would say 70 % of the people having the action slicked up can't tell the difference from a factory action and a very good action job. If you are competing with C&B I know you want the lightest hammer spring that can set a cap of mandating the use of cap guards, that is a compition not working gun. You will not see a cap guard on most C&B pistols made by Sam Colt, yes a few are out there but not many. I think they were used by the Manhattan Pistol Co. to speed up delivery to Uncle during the 1860's.

Not quite, hammer spring tension really is not responsible for cap jams, its the face of the hammer with that neat little notch cut in it that pulls a cap off, referred to as cap sucking, and drops the thing into that gap in the hammer slot causing the gun to jam. Adding a cap post cuts that down by a substantial amount, adding an action shield ensures it wont get into the lock works. Having been into a good number of Uberti pistols I can say that they start the tuning process but don't finish it, plus Uberti still has the short arbor, it doesn't matter if it came from Taylors or some place else. On the tuning part, so far everyone I've done a pistol for has commented on what difference it makes on how smooth the action is. Whether or not they can shoot the difference remains to be seen.

[HWooldridge]

My original Colt 1860 has a machined half-round groove in the recoil shield that allows cap fragments to move out of the way when the piece is cocked after a shot. I don’t own any modern C&B’s anymore and cannot recall if the ones I previously had possessed that feature or not.

If I recall correctly, the 1860 was the last, or one of the last, revolvers that Sam Colt helped design and by that time, he had over twenty years experience with field successes and failures. I have always held to the notion that the Italians should have copied every feature of the later percussion guns so we could realize what modern materials could do with a highly developed period design, but they only went so far and stopped. These guns are essentially toys now and some of the nuances are lost.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

If you order from the link I posted they can install their anti jam system.
https://www.longhunt.com/web/uploads/images/Action%20Work/Anti%20Cap%20Jam%20003%20(450%20x%20600).jpg

Jim tells me the originals had this shelf. I'm not sure if that's true but he claims 100% reliability.

[Jackrabbit1957]

My original Colt 1860 has a machined half-round groove in the recoil shield that allows cap fragments to move out of the way when the piece is cocked after a shot. I don’t own any modern C&B’s anymore and cannot recall if the ones I previously had possessed that feature or not.

If I recall correctly, the 1860 was the last, or one of the last, revolvers that Sam Colt helped design and by that time, he had over twenty years experience with field successes and failures. I have always held to the notion that the Italians should have copied every feature of the later percussion guns so we could realize what modern materials could do with a highly developed period design, but they only went so far and stopped. These guns are essentially toys now and some of the nuances are lost.

The replica 1860 has a groove that acts as a channel to help guide cap fragments away fron the hammer slot in the frame. However it's not fool proof and the hammer can still pull a cap off and neatly drop it into the lock work causing a jam. I have seen the cap fence in pictures as shown here but can see why its not a real popular fix. Some guys point the barrel up during cocking and then roll the pistol to the right to drop any loose cap pieces out of the groove. As stated before a cap post and action shield are gonna get you close to 100% reliability against cap jams. It's a win win scenario especially when it's included in the cost of tuning the pistol.

[HWooldridge]

The replica 1860 has a groove that acts as a channel to help guide cap fragments away fron the hammer slot in the frame. However it's not fool proof and the hammer can still pull a cap off and neatly drop it into the lock work causing a jam. I have seen the cap fence in pictures as shown here but can see why its not a real popular fix. Some guys point the barrel up during cocking and then roll the pistol to the right to drop any loose cap pieces out of the groove. As stated before a cap post and action shield are gonna get you close to 100% reliability against cap jams. It's a win win scenario especially when it's included in the cost of tuning the pistol.

Good to know. It’s been over 40 years since I owned a modern replica and I was going on memory. I do recall my 1858 Remington replica from Dixie didn’t seem to cap-jam very often, if at all - but the Colt would occasionally do it. The Remington also held more powder and was more accurate; it just didn’t point as naturally as the
Colt, which truly “points like your finger”.

[Harter66]

Currently all of the Italian clones are under the Beretta umbrella. QC has most certainly improved since 2015 or so when they were aquired .

I have a 1978 brass 1858 Pietta . I guess I've had it about 10 years. When I got it the nipples were hammered, the hammer was so beat up it was dragging on the frame and the base pin was stuck . The barrel is .440×.426 with .448 chambers . The cylinder face looked like it had been used to drive fence posts . A little stoning , new nipples , and peening fixed all of that . The chambers ran from .442-.448 . The sights were pretty good for 25 gr of FFFg and 32 FFg with a .454 . I did break a trigger return spring in it .

I've had 4 1860's . A 3 Piettas and an ASM . The ASM was a basket case "pimp" gun with parts missing and was probably robbed for those parts for another sometime in the 4-5 owners before me .
The cap rake is essential. Aside from the caps falling in the hammer groove I can't say there was any particular issues I just couldn't warm up to the 60s . I still can't . I didn't have to fix anything in them except for the navy that had been pretty well abused before I got it ......that old saw it I'd known then , yep , one of those deals .

I have kept a 2nd Model Dragoon ASM . In 200 odd rounds it hasn't had any undesirable actions save for a couple of cap jams . Fortunately the robust clock works just chew up the caps and go on with business.

I will second sending them the 45 Dragoon . I've had the opportunity to shoot several reworked by him and there's just no comparison to box stock . He offers or had planned to offer a few modernizations for them to make them smoother and more reliable.

Stock out of the box reliable unfondled I don't have any suggestions.
Pay more get more I guess .

[Jackrabbit1957]

I know I sound like a broken record, fix the arbor on that ASM if you haven't already. Any one of these revolvers can be improved on right outta the box. 45 Dragoon is a great guy and a great tuner, only trouble is he's backed up for quite some time.I too offer tuning and repairs. Mr Dragoon has been a great mentor to me and he's always willing to share advise and different ideas and techniques.

[indian joe]

all the uberti and pietta wheelguns I bought were 'shootable' out of the box.. on some I did some improvements either with arbor shims or changed out nipples or polishing the cylinder holes.. but all were shootable out of the box.

We have four colt replicas all came here second hand - all worked when we got them - however stuff happens over time
broken hand springs (3)
broken lockbolt/trigger springs (3 or 4)
short arbours (4) fixed after the walker shot itself loose
1860 army stripped the ratchet gears on underside of the barrel / creeping loading lever unfunctional - I fixed that but likely most blokes would have binned the gun
army colt and walker ridiculously out of spec cylinder size to bore dimensions - they shot fine with half charge and filler but hopeless with full cylinder of powder - reamed both cylinders out to .462 got a new Pedersoli mold = two good accurate, powerful pistols.

Buy a new one, shoot it, figure out a load that works, have some fun, if you wanna do serious competition most of these can be tinkered/fiddled up to put em in the ten ring regular. Theres a heap of info, look up the Pettifogger files for a start. Fix the arbour on a Uberti is easy done.

[HWooldridge]

The cylinder chamber size to bore size issue is very important; most replicas are wrong there and need to be corrected.

I also believe the gain twist rifling found on the originals contributed to accuracy. Dixie used to sell an 1858 Remington replica that had it but the price was about 3x over the standard guns.

[indian joe]

The cylinder chamber size to bore size issue is very important; most replicas are wrong there and need to be corrected.

I also believe the gain twist rifling found on the originals contributed to accuracy. Dixie used to sell an 1858 Remington replica that had it but the price was about 3x over the standard guns.

Both the Walker and the 1860 army were .462 in the groove and .452 cylinder (had to have came out of the same factory the rifling was identical) - this was deep rifling, 12 thou" I think so we were getting some engagement and they shot half decent with filler) I made a reamer from an old HT bolt and took them out to .462 (just deep enough to seat a ball cleanly) we got a Pedersoli .464 mold. This must be a common enough problem those molds are a stock item in .462 & .464 --- points to demand.
Taking that much out of the army colt cylinder leaves it pretty darn thin - it you went full depth would likely not hold up and we only shoot round ball in these guns. I reckon if you wanna shoot conicals go get a suppository gun and be done with it.

[Gtek]

Let me guess, Armi San Marcos? There are .465" and .470" molds here also. Going by today's prices and what I have in them they were great educational tools, they turned out to be great kit guns! I still grab everyone I find worthy and priced right. They were my lab kits years ago, a properly fit, well timed percussion revolver is a blast (pun intended).

[indian joe]

Let me guess, Armi San Marcos? There are .465" and .470" molds here also. Going by today's prices and what I have in them they were great educational tools, they turned out to be great kit guns! I still grab everyone I find worthy and priced right. They were my lab kits years ago, a properly fit, well timed percussion revolver is a blast (pun intended).

NOPE! my ASM is spot on the money, nice shallow rifling, 451 ball, shoots lights out with a full charge, would not swap it for a brand new 'berti. I find the automatic criticism of ASM hard to fathom ? - this gun and I also had a ASM frontier colt in 44/40 both top notch handguns (had to hand the 44/40 in for our johhny howard buyback - seems he had watched a dirty harry movie and decided to ban anything over 38 cal as too dangerous - coulda took my compo money and bought the same gun in 357 mag and still been legal - so factory 44/40 vs factory 357 mag - one is dangerous to all and sundry and tother aint - go figure)
The walker is a CVA and the 1860 army is branded Euroarms - both barrels had to come out of the same factory the rifling is identical specs. Maybe this was ASM in another set of clothes? Dunno - just know the two ASM guns were top notch

[armoredman]

I have to throw in here that I have had two cap and ball revolvers worked on, one an 1851 Navy 44 by Pietta that was halfway reliable, then worked on by a guy called the Outlaw Kid. He did a fairly nice job on it and it turns smooth as butter. Jackrabbit did an incredible job on my 1860, and I can very easily tell the difference in the action, silky sweet. I don't regret a penny paid for quality work!
Nice thing is Jackrabbit took a look at my new stainless 1858 Uberti and said it was just right...right out of the box.

[gunther]

Another vote for Ruger Old Army's. They will last long enough for someone to inherit, and, yes, they will handle .452 sized slugs. And all the 3f black powder you can stuff in them. That's about 43 grains under a round ball.

[indian joe]

Another vote for Ruger Old Army's. They will last long enough for someone to inherit, and, yes, they will handle .452 sized slugs. And all the 3f black powder you can stuff in them. That's about 43 grains under a round ball.

and they look like what they are --- a modern gun that somebody adapted over to shoot cap and ball - strong, durable, accurate, trouble free, all that and a long poor last place on looks - we can tune the colt to eliminate most of the negatives ----the ruger starts out twice the price (if you can still find one) .

[armoredman]

I know - I've lusted for a stainless 8 inch ROA for years...but my stainless 1858 takes a lot of the edge off that pain. :)

[WRideout]

I bought a Remington 1858 from Dixie and had no issues whatsoever. I also bought a Uberti-made Colt 1860 replica and it worked just fine.

It's just luck of the draw - people who don't have problems probably don't put up Youtube videos.

Also very good luck with Dixie Gun Works Pietta replica. I bought an 1851 Navy "Kit" and it came completely assembled and timed. All I really needed to do was blue the frame and polish the grip handle. It would have shot just fine out of the box. Quality is very good.

Wayne

[Gtek]

Not busting on ASM/CVA, I have a few and were found to be on both ends of spectrum. I will admit I am really, really picky and every one I own (all makers) needed something, that's part of the fun for me. Figure out what's WRONG with them and figure out fix it up then have to go shoot them, being good or bad for some reason this makes me happy!

[45 Dragoon]

and they look like what they are --- a modern gun that somebody adapted over to shoot cap and ball - strong, durable, accurate, trouble free, all that and a long poor last place on looks - we can tune the colt to eliminate most of the negatives ----the ruger starts out twice the price (if you can still find one) .

Well, after Bill showed us how it can be done, the Open-tops and Remington's can be made about as "bullet proof" as the ROA (it's not 100% either)!!

So, it's still "wide open"!!!

Mike

[indian joe]

Not busting on ASM/CVA, I have a few and were found to be on both ends of spectrum. I will admit I am really, really picky and every one I own (all makers) needed something, that's part of the fun for me. Figure out what's WRONG with them and figure out fix it up then have to go shoot them, being good or bad for some reason this makes me happy!

I dont know the full history of these factories - all our repro guns are old (1970's to early 1990) but for sure the two ASM's we've had are big heaps different (barrels) than the CVA / Euroarms in addition that CVA Walker has way different rifling (shape/form/depth) than the 10 or so CVA rifles I have had .
Do I understand right that CVA (and Euroarms) was/were marketing distribution companies based in the US and that Dikar was the factory (Spanish) making them (CVA anyways) - about half the CVA's I refer to were actually branded Dikar .......(Dikar / CVA = Spain) .....(Euroarms = Italian ?)

Big fish eat the little fish along the way ---who got gobbled up by Aldo who then saved his backside by doing a deal with Beretta? - how many mom and Pop shops survived as parts suppliers to the bigger ones?

[indian joe]

Well, after Bill showed us how it can be done, the Open-tops and Remington's can be made about as "bullet proof" as the ROA (it's not 100% either)!!

So, it's still "wide open"!!!

Mike

never owned a ROA - they were a heckof a price when I started - liked the look (and feel) of colts better - dont mind tinkering on em (half the fun as I got older)

[Andy45]

OK. This thread is very educational and perfect timing! I would really like some advice on how to deal with the following situation.

Just bought my first Uberti. It is a Colt 1862 Police. Beautiful fit & finish, but with some big mechanical issues. So I have not attempted to shoot it yet for the following reasons:

At first glance the cylinder and barrel are vertically at a shallow angle to one another. The cylinder gap is narrower at the bottom of the barrel throat face than at the top. Because of this, the barrel looks like it is drooping slightly. Any ball leaving cylinder would have to alter direction slightly entering the throat.

Upon disassembly, the arbor looks bent in the middle. The bend is vertically upwards. I expect the top of the bend will prematurely start to wear, and/or so will the center of the cylinder making the problems below even worse.

Uncocked, the cylinder has a crazy amount of endshake, as well as rotary play. This endshake and play is somewhat diminished when cocked. The hand and stop engagement diminishes the play somewhat.

Timing and lockup is sketchy. Fast full cocking works, but slow or short cocking and something jams.

I own 7 other repros, bought new and used, but none have remotely the amount of issues as this pistola. I do not want to shoot it until someone who knows what they are doing has gone thru it. I don't want to risk making a bad situation worse.

The mail order dealer does not accept returns. So should I contact Uberti first, or do I contact one of the fine gentlemen who have posted in this thread?

Thanks, Andy

[LAGS]

If the pistol is Brand New , then I would contact Uberti.
There has to be some kind of warranty.
If not , there are several members on this forum that you can contact for info or repair on that pistol like Jackrabbit

[armoredman]

Uberti first, if the dealer is being a pain, (who is it so we don't waste our money there?), then Jackrabbit.

[Jackrabbit1957]

Thanks for the mention guys! I just got finished on an 1862 pocket just as described. This one was new with only one cylinder full fired. It had multiple issues such as no carry up on 3 of the 5 chambers, and lots of endshake. I won't bore you with the details but it was a challenge to get this one to function. It sounds like a lot of the problem is the arbor isn't bedding into the barrel lug and that is the root of a lot of issues. Uberti has never acknowledged the short arbor problem, they think the wdege is how you adjust the barrel to cylinder gap which is 100% wrong. The wedge needs to be firmly seated to securely lock both parts together with a short arbor driving the wedge in like it's supposed to be, locks the cylinder. Once the arbor is corrected you have the same gun each time it's reassembled. Feel free to private message me for details on tuning and fixing the issues on your pistol. I have a feeling that Uberti might not want to do it the way it needs to be done.

[KCSO]

60 years of experience, Second Gen Colts the worst and Uberti the best with Pietta next and ASM dead last. All will need a little tuning and sight work and good nipples will help immensely, either slix or treso. There were hand made Remingtons and the Rogers and Spenser that worked out of the box but the cost was double the others.

[indian joe]

60 years of experience, Second Gen Colts the worst and Uberti the best with Pietta next and ASM dead last. All will need a little tuning and sight work and good nipples will help immensely, either slix or treso. There were hand made Remingtons and the Rogers and Spenser that worked out of the box but the cost was double the others.

I keep reading horror stories about ASM - the two I've had have been the equal of anything out there - old history though - all the repros we own were made last century - some over 40 years old - I think all these companies (maybe excepting Uberti) took their turn making junk along the way and also suggest the survival of Uberti and Pietta proly had more to do with business and financial acumen than superior gunmaking ability.
Havent we had some fun though? if you took the European repros out of my safe it would leave a pretty darn boring lot -- what would I do? I have zero interest in military stuff and dont have enough money to shoot collectible cowboy guns. ..............

[Jackrabbit1957]

ASM did go through a period where quality wasn't as good as it should have been. I have about half a dozen with only one being questionable quality. The worst ones to come across my bench were Armi San Paolo. At least I think they were ASPs. They had no manufacturing marks. Internal parts were rough and thick, klunky things that needed a lot of work. Arbors were way short, just did one that required a 3/8 ths spacer to properly bed it in the barrel recess. I'll take an ASM on its worst day over the ASPs hands down. ASMs are much closer to the original Colts as well with internal parts being interchangeable.

[hylander]

I'm a little late to the party.
But, I have owned more than 6 Pietta's and all have functioned 100% out of the box.
Only one needed the front sight regulated and it was just a tad off.
I have never needed to replace or repair a single part.
All would shoot under 2.5" at 25yds. with RB or 45 Colt Conversions.
Also have used Conversion Cylinders in them and all were a straight drop in.

[Jackrabbit1957]

I've had 2 Piettas come across the bench lately that the wedge slot in the arbor was too narrow, the wedge was not pulling the 2 parts together and accuracy was dismal. I pass this along so folks can check and be sure things are working as advertised. Both the barrel and wedge slots need about an eighth inch clearance free around the wedge, the idea being to have the wedge not binding in either slot. If it does the pistol is not being held together as a solid piece.

[6string]

I will recommend without hesitation the following "cap & ball" revolvers:
-Feinwerkbau History #2. A match grade version of the Rogers & Spencer
-Hege Army Match Maximum. A match grade version of the Remington .44
-Pedersoli Remington 1858. Very much like the Hege.

These are all superbly accurate and reliable. Metallurgy is top notch. ie: the springs are reliable and lockwork parts are properly hardened.
All three of these are approved for MLAIC and NS-SA competition.
Unfortunately, only one, the Pedersoli, is currently being made.

Here's a professional review:

https://youtu.be/M3cHmmjct8U

[indian joe]

I will recommend without hesitation the following "cap & ball" revolvers:
-Feinwerkbau History #2. A match grade version of the Rogers & Spencer
-Hege Army Match Maximum. A match grade version of the Remington .44
-Pedersoli Remington 1858. Very much like the Hege.

These are all superbly accurate and reliable. Metallurgy is top notch. ie: the springs are reliable and lockwork parts are properly hardened.
All three of these are approved for MLAIC and NS-SA competition.
Unfortunately, only one, the Pedersoli, is currently being made.

Here's a professional review:

https://youtu.be/M3cHmmjct8U

had a couple remys over the years - knuckle busters - I'd rather shoot a colt - will shoot it better simply because I like the feel of it better
Depends on how your mitt fits the grip I guess.

Never handled a rogers and spencer - like the looks of em tho.

[Woodnbow]

Not busting on ASM/CVA, I have a few and were found to be on both ends of spectrum. I will admit I am really, really picky and every one I own (all makers) needed something, that's part of the fun for me. Figure out what's WRONG with them and figure out fix it up then have to go shoot them, being good or bad for some reason this makes me happy!

Longhunter will give you what you’re looking for. Jackrabbit does fine work too…


[smilie=s:[smilie=s:Hey Dave!

[Gtek]

I've been pretty happy with Gtek's work, sometimes he does take them back apart for another tweak or two. But I will say he uses the correct screwdrivers and no shipping charges!

[omgb]

I have four cap and ball revolvers. Two are Remington models. One came from Navy Arms in the mid 1970s, the other was from Dixie and carried their markings. It's unpolished as was a less expensive version. These two always work and have worked each and every time. No issues. The two Rugers are also well made, accurate and work perfectly. I did bend the loading ram on the stainless model while trying to force a conical over a heavy charge. Other than that, they are great. Oh, IIRC, they came with nipples that took #10 caps. I swapped them almost immediately for nipples using #11 caps.

[Geezer in NH]

Ruger's did alas no more

[uscra112]

^^^^so true^^^^

[omgb]

To avoid the dreaded "cap in the action" lock up, I shoot my pistols as seen in some turn of the century films. For the first shot, I aim at my target, cock the gun and fire. Then I point the pistol straight up and thumb the hammer back. If a cap falls off, it always falls free of the gun. I then aim and shoot. This is not a new Italian problem but from what I have read, it was common during the cap and ball period. My "technique" is not new, just copied from William S Hart, Tom Mix and Yakama Canuk. That's my take on it. I'm not saying mine is the final word, just a solution I believe was period correct.

[Jackrabbit1957]

While it may not be period correct a cap post and action shield will cure that problem. Another issue is the short arbor on the Uberti replicas. The original design did not have a short arbor. If you want to stay period correct, don't do the cap post or action shield but at least fix the arbor.

[omgb]

Ruger Old Army

If you are interested, Rugers will shoot conical just fine. They are not rated for smokeless regardless of their frames. Yes, they are stout and you would be hard pressed to break one but Ruger insists they are BP only. In fact, it’s stamped on the barrel. I have one in blue and one in stainless. Both have adjustable sights. Both have excellent triggers. Both are bigger than a Remington but smaller than a Walker. Both are .45 caliber, not 44. A used one will set you back about $700-$800. None will need any tuning to work perfectly. That’s my experience. Others may differ, but I’ll bet most will agree. Now, the down side is they are not replicas. They are Rugers. So, if authenticity is your bag, Ruger is not for you.

[577450]

Things must have changed a lot since the 70's. Now unless it is a Uberti or Pietta it is worthless and they need timed, arbors fixed, etc, etc.
If you are trying to shoot bullseye, maybe so. The .36 1851 brass frame from probably Dixie has never jammed a cap . I don't have a timing problem and the only trouble was that it shot best at around 27 grains. With the brass frame I eventually had to tighten it up. And it shot even better. The third time I tightened it was not so good, about like originally. I don't sit out there on weekends hammering away, it's a tool for hunting, squirrel, rabbit,woodchuck, and finishing off a deer.
If some body had a steel frame that would eliminate the puny problem I had. The squirrel was at the top of a big maple and it did take 5 shots. I took a black bird about the same , the second shot I remembered to hold a foot low.
My wife's was a steel frame 1851 from Spesco. She shot better than me and never had a cap blockage. This was before the internet. I get the impression a lot of people with slim or no experience believe everything they read and overthink it. Just get something you can afford and enjoy it.
As an aside, I don't use drop tubes on my 45 -70 or 43 span and have killed a couple deer. And I doubt the buffalo hunters carried apothecary scales as some have suggested is critical.
John








the second shot after I remembered to hold a foot low


.
.

[Sixgun Symphony]

Don't buy the brass frame guns, they develop problems when used.

It is also a good idea to have a smith do an action job. The Cowboy Shooters over at "The Wire" can recommend gunsmiths that work on single action revolvers.

[omgb]

Ruger Old Army

I’m a pretty close reader so I won’t waste your time recommending smiths😁 Ruger is always good and you will pay for it too. Barring that, my go to is Pedersoli. They make excellent guns. Next would be Pieta. Their QC is not equal to either of the afore mentioned but, if you can see and handle the pistol before buying it, you should be able to find a good one.

[Jackrabbit1957]

Or you could just contact a tuner/ revolver smith and have it tuned and properly set up. It's not that all that expensive and you get a pistol that will last a lifetime and shoot accurately.

[577450]

Out of curiosity, what are "cowboy action" shooters all about? Did Hickok have some.body fine tune his 36's ? I doubt it and have not read otherwise. This whole business reminds of when I hitched
for a pony puller. Top place was 7 dollars. It got to be that winning was more important than the 7 dollars. That led to the end of pony pulling. Now it is all horse pulling with the same abuse.












Z

[Edward]

Things must have changed a lot since the 70's. Now unless it is a Uberti or Pietta it is worthless and they need timed, arbors fixed, etc, etc.
If you are trying to shoot bullseye, maybe so. The .36 1851 brass frame from probably Dixie has never jammed a cap . I don't have a timing problem and the only trouble was that it shot best at around 27 grains. With the brass frame I eventually had to tighten it up. And it shot even better. The third time I tightened it was not so good, about like originally. I don't sit out there on weekends hammering away, it's a tool for hunting, squirrel, rabbit,woodchuck, and finishing off a deer.
If some body had a steel frame that would eliminate the puny problem I had. The squirrel was at the top of a big maple and it did take 5 shots. I took a black bird about the same , the second shot I remembered to hold a foot low.
My wife's was a steel frame 1851 from Spesco. She shot better than me and never had a cap blockage. This was before the internet. I get the impression a lot of people with slim or no experience believe everything they read and overthink it. Just get something you can afford and enjoy it.
As an aside, I don't use drop tubes on my 45 -70 or 43 span and have killed a couple deer. And I doubt the buffalo hunters carried apothecary scales as some have suggested is critical.
John

Scales/drop tubes are found used by most folks found in the winners circle or humongous gut piles , yup you can kill deer your way and a blind squirrel finds nuts too!/Ed






the second shot after I remembered to hold a foot low


.
.

Buffalos are big even @800 yds ,scales and drop tubes users are usually found in the winners circle

[Rockindaddy]

Don't buy an 1860 Colt Army. They are good lookin and shoot quite well. But I have poured many rounds through an 1860 Army. Actually shot one so much the cylinder pin loosened and eventually pulled out of the frame. Went and TIG welded the threads up and tapped the frame threads out to a slightly larger SAE fine thread. Was able to chase a new thread on the cylinder pin and case carburize it. Threaded it in with red Locktite. That was quite a few years ago! Gave it to a friend that still shoots it. However if you plan to do some serious shooting and don't need the grief of replacing cylinder wedges as they get beat up; buy a Remington!!!!! The 44 cal Remingtons are low maintenance! No beating the cylinder wedge in and out to remove the cylinder. Just pull the pin on the Remington. Buy a Remington!!!

[indian joe]

Buffalos are big even @800 yds ,scales and drop tubes users are usually found in the winners circle

yeh its what you do to screw the last bit out of a good gun
loading rough I can shoot 2.5 to 3" group at 100yards - plenty good enough for buffalo at 200 - I am capable of a little better than that
same gun and combo loaded properly on a good day I might sneak it under 2" @ 100 - the gun and load might be capable of better - me? not so much

[indian joe]

Don't buy an 1860 Colt Army. They are good lookin and shoot quite well. But I have poured many rounds through an 1860 Army. Actually shot one so much the cylinder pin loosened and eventually pulled out of the frame. Went and TIG welded the threads up and tapped the frame threads out to a slightly larger SAE fine thread. Was able to chase a new thread on the cylinder pin and case carburize it. Threaded it in with red Locktite. That was quite a few years ago! Gave it to a friend that still shoots it. However if you plan to do some serious shooting and don't need the grief of replacing cylinder wedges as they get beat up; buy a Remington!!!!! The 44 cal Remingtons are low maintenance! No beating the cylinder wedge in and out to remove the cylinder. Just pull the pin on the Remington. Buy a Remington!!!

some parts of a remington are a better design - if they were a better gun to handle and shoot - how come colt outsold them ?

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Colt had government contracts. He was a better businessman. I have plenty of both and I agree the Remington's work better and are stronger. The repros both have weak hand springs and trigger bolt springs. Whatever you get replace the nipples and buy a wolf T/B spring.

[charlie b]

If only the Remy grip was as comfortable as the Colt. It is flared 'wrong' and narrow in the wrong place.

I liked mine even with the bad grip. Liked it even better after I shortened the barrel (5" IIRC) and turned the grip into a bird's head shape. A gunsmith friend made me a good trade for it. He used it in SASS. His full size in a hip holster and the short one in a crossdraw holster. They made a nice looking pair.

[Battis]

Ah, once again, the old Colt vs Remington argument. Colts shoot loose, Remington arbors don't have a grease groove...bla bla bla.
I never had to beat the wedge in any Colts.
I'll take a Colt any day of the week, except Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, when I'll take a Remington.
I have Colts and Remingtons made in the 1860s that are still going strong, still right and tight.
Never say never...

[indian joe]

then lets put a colt grip and trigger guard on a remington action - cure both sets of "problems" at the one time

[indian joe]

Colt had government contracts. He was a better businessman. I have plenty of both and I agree the Remington's work better and are stronger. The repros both have weak hand springs and trigger bolt springs. Whatever you get replace the nipples and buy a wolf T/B spring.

more to it I reckon --the colt just feels better when you pick it up, points easier, looks nicer, and the trigger guard dont bust yer knuckle when ya fire it. The cap jam problem I bet was much less in olden days - the vintage caps I have seen were much stouter build than we get today .

[Battis]

Here's the revolver I want - MERSHON AND HOLLINGSWORTH SELF-COCKING REVOLVER.
https://www.guns.com/news/2013/04/25/mershon-and-hollingsworth-self-cocking-revolver

[indian joe]

Here's the revolver I want - MERSHON AND HOLLINGSWORTH SELF-COCKING REVOLVER.
https://www.guns.com/news/2013/04/25/mershon-and-hollingsworth-self-cocking-revolver

brilliant solution to an imaginary problem!!

[Swineherd]

brilliant solution to an imaginary problem!!

???
Are double action pistols a brilliant solution to an imaginary problem too?

[omgb]

I bought a Remington 1858 from Dixie and had no issues whatsoever. I also bought a Uberti-made Colt 1860 replica and it worked just fine.

It's just luck of the draw - people who don't have problems probably don't put up Youtube videos.


I have purchased 2 Remington revolvers from Dixie. One was a Matt finish model. Both have excellent triggers and both go bang and hit what you are aiming at every time. I also have 2 Rugers. Those are in a much better class of gun, and you pay for it😁. I’m not sure of who made my Dixie guns; Pieta or Uberti. They are worth what I paid for them in that they are fun to shoot.

Guys who post on YouTube do it for the money. Bad news sells better than good news so I wouldn’t take their negative portrayal as gospel. If you buy a Remington copy you should have no problems

[Thundermaker]

IMHO, if you're getting a colt style open top, and you don't want to shoot conicals, get a pietta. They don't have the short arbor problem, but they have too slow a twist rate for conicals.

Otherwise, uberti remington.

[Jackrabbit1957]

That's strange, I have a Pietta 1860 Navy, just went out yesterday for a range session, shot a dozen cast conical bullets very accurately. It's definitely minute of golf ball at 30 yards. This pistol has been tuned with music wire springs, an action shield, bolt guide and a Ruger type hand spring and plunger. These modifications make the pistol much more reliable than one straight out of the box. I am very pleased with it's performance with the conical bullets. I offer tuning services for those interested having their pistols set up properly.

[Battis]

Not to take away from those that offer tune-ups for the old cap and ball guns, but I shoot the old timers with one foot in the 1860s. I don't want my cap and ball guns to be as reliable as a modern gun - I don't rely on them for anything but an historical experience. I expect problems, and I deal with them as they come up. I like working on them as much as shooting them. When I want a trouble-free shooting day, I take the Ruger Old Army. I have several antiques and repros, and hands down, the smoothest cap and ball revolver that I have is a Pietta 1860 .44.

[Thundermaker]

That's strange, I have a Pietta 1860 Navy, just went out yesterday for a range session, shot a dozen cast conical bullets very accurately. It's definitely minute of golf ball at 30 yards. This pistol has been tuned with music wire springs, an action shield, bolt guide and a Ruger type hand spring and plunger. These modifications make the pistol much more reliable than one straight out of the box. I am very pleased with it's performance with the conical bullets. I offer tuning services for those interested having their pistols set up properly.

Maybe they've changed things. I haven't bought one in a while.

[Jackrabbit1957]

Both Pietta and Uberti have stepped up their games, Pietta went to CNC machines about 10 years ago and fixed the short arbor on the Colt replicas, Uberti has never acknowledged the arbor issue but fit and finish is generally better than Pietta, tho not by much. Both makers pistols can use tuning to get them right as far as timing and lock up are concerned.

[HamGunner]

I have three Pietta 1851 Navies. I have a 1974, 1981, and a 1999, with the 1999 having a 7 groove bore with a bit deeper rifling than the other two which had 6 groove bores. The 7 groove bore seemed to be a bit more accurate for me using ball, but I have not shot enough conicals to be able to tell much about their accuracy.

Edit: I had to do a good bit of tuning on all three revolvers. The 1981 had been used a bit, but the other two were safe Queens and were basically like new. All three needed the cylinder locks trued up to actually fit all the way down into the cylinder lock grooves for good cylinder/bore alignment. Some needed the lock relieved a bit on one side or the other or maybe even on both sides to give correct alignment.

I had an assortment of extra internal parts and of course I think I remember swapping parts back and forth between them to make them all work better. Mostly to help the timing, but I know I did increase the cylinder throat diameters a bit on all of them. The throats were all way too small for the bores.

[Swineherd]

Is there a thread specifically for hawking services?