Flat Nose Bullets

[44MAG#1]

Help me out on this, please.
On a HARD CAST or JACKETED bullet how does the Meplat of a flat nose bullet operate as far as producing a wound channel both permanent and temporary? Does the Meplat really do much?
What are the mechanics of the process? KEEPING in MIND that I am talking about HARD CAST or Jacketed not a soft alloy that smears the edges of the Meplat (FN) easily.
I know that passing through bone of any size can alter the nose but i am talking about mainly muscle tissue.
Thanks in advance for your time.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Someone can detail this more, but in my understanding it comes down to: Fluid cavitation -- non laminar, or turbulent flow field dynamics.

The flat nose is inefficient in a sense of fluid dynamics / flow, so, there is cavitation created at the bullet nose.
This cavitation energy contributes to cavity disruption / damage. Thus wounding.

So, recognizing that cavitation creates an enhancement of damage, then design actions can be taken to gain efficiency in creating desirable wound characteristics via cavitation created by fluid flow characteristics that are not laminar (i.e. they are turbulent).

A good read on this phenomena is the Woodleigh manual section on their Hydrostatically stabilized solids.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Should have added: Large meplats and high velocity are effective at creating large permanent wounds.

I shot a deer once w/ a 475 Linebaugh Long driving a 400 gr LBT WFN at 1660 fps muzzle velocity. The deer was 12 feet away. During dressing, I measured (pocket card ruler) the entrance & exit hole diameter on the hide at approximately 1.5 inches, and the hole through the lung tissue at 2 inches.

[Rapier]

I have a 45-70 Mauser, it and a 444 Marlin rifle are terrors with a big flat point SWC style bullets. The Mauser does 2,700 with a 300 and is a devastating crusher on hogs. The Marlin with a 240 at 2,400 removes the contents of the chest cavity on a deer, just liquifies everything. Both impacts resemble a lightning strike more than a bullet impact.
The hydraulics are tremendous.
I shot 3 hogs in one day, three shots, DRT, no kicking. My 445 SM does about the same at 2,000. It appears to be the combination of bullet shape, weight and velocity, expanding internal fluid upon impact. The impact is quite serious, much worse tissue damage than a round nose that pushes tissue out of the way.
Shot a 550 pound hog with a 357 round nose, 7 times, nothing like a Ruger BH, empty, standing next to a wounded 550 pound hog, that stands up as you are reloading. I got a whole new understanding of not enough gun. True story, note 7 shots.

[Bazoo]

I don’t understand it, but I take the word for it by several folks. I think Skeeter Skelton wrote about shooting jack rabbits with a 32 or 38. Anyways, he had round most bullets and would hit them but they’ll run off and took several hits to bring them down. He switched to flat pointed bullets, with no other change, and it brought the varmints down straight away. The round nose bullets sorta slip right through, whereas the flat nosed pushes material with it as it goes, disrupting surrounding tissue and delivering more shock.

[M-Tecs]

Help me out on this, please.
On a HARD CAST of JACKETED bullet how does the Meplat of a flat nose bullet operate as far as producing a wound channel both permanent and temporary? Does the Meplat really do much?
What are the mechanics of the process? KEEPING in MIND that I am talking about HARD CAST or Jacketed not a soft alloy that smears the edges of the Meplat (FN) easily.
I know that passing through bone of any size can alter the nose but i am talking about mainly muscle tissue.
Thanks in advance for your time.

Jacketed only means the lead core has a jacket on it. Jacketed can be had in jacketed soft point (JSP), Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) or full metal jacket (FMJ).

Point design has a significant effect on the wound characteristics as does velocity.

https://ultimatereloader.com/reloading-101/pistol-bullet-basics/

https://concealednation.org/2020/03/beginners-understanding-the-difference-between-jhp-fmj-p-and-other-types-of-ammo/

https://www.luckygunner.com/ammopedia/bullet-type/jacketed-soft-point-bullets#:~:text=Jacketed%20Soft-Point%20%28JSP%29%20Bullets%20Jacketed%20Soft%20Po int%2C%20or,top%20portion%20of%20the%20round%20bei ng%20exposed%20lead.

https://www.targetbarn.com/broad-side/soft-point-bullets/

[44MAG#1]

Jacketed only means the lead core has a jacket on it. Jacketed can be had in jacketed soft point (JSP), Jacketed Hollow Point (JHP) or full metal jacket (FMJ).

Point design has a significant effect on the wound characteristics.

https://concealednation.org/2020/03/beginners-understanding-the-difference-between-jhp-fmj-p-and-other-types-of-ammo/

https://www.luckygunner.com/ammopedia/bullet-type/jacketed-soft-point-bullets#:~:text=Jacketed%20Soft-Point%20%28JSP%29%20Bullets%20Jacketed%20Soft%20Po int%2C%20or,top%20portion%20of%20the%20round%20bei ng%20exposed%20lead.

https://www.targetbarn.com/broad-side/soft-point-bullets/

I corrected my mistake. I meant a HARD CAST or Jacketed Flat Point bullet that is NON DEFORMING meaning non expanding.

[M-Tecs]

I corrected my mistake. I meant a HARD CAST or Jacketed Flat Point bullet that is NON DEFORMING meaning non expanding.

That would be a solid or FMJ. Terminology does matter.

[44MAG#1]

That would be a solid or FMJ.

Yes I know that. I have a 458 Win Mag in both a Ruger #1 and An Encore handgun.
I have shot "Solids" in both.

[M-Tecs]

The fluted bullet designs do seem to work as claimed giving credence to point shape matters.

https://gunsmagazine.com/ammo/fluted-ammo-great-or-gimmik/

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/underwood-65-grain-xd-357-sig.1945556/#:~:text=The%20flutes%20in%20the%20bullet%20propel %20soft%20tissues,may%20cause%20these%20cuts%20to% 20be%20torn%20open.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOT1udPJjAw

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFwr2ycgXk

[44MAG#1]

I've seen two or three of those videos. I have some of that type of ammo for the 45 Auto. Never shot any of it.
BTW it is Underwood ammo.

[TurnipEaterDown]

One thing not mentioned here, but meaningful in that in relation to wounding capacity it also matters what happens After the bullet has proceeded some distance and nose shape changes (on an expanding projectile) and/or rotational velocity slows, is what happens to bullet stability.

I was on a trip years ago with a friend and he shot a boar (hog) of ~220 lbs broadside with a 285 gr HP in a 44 Contender. I can't state for an absolute fact, but since I provided the data for him to load with, I believe it was loaded at 1.73" w/ 24 gr W296. No slouch load, these did ~1350 fps out of a 7.5" SBH of mine.
The bullet had a brass jacket and a large HP. The promotional concept was rapid opening, and after some distance traveled in the body the HP would shear off leaving a sort of non-expanding wad cutter plug of ~ 190 gr to travel on.
So, again, he took a broadside shot, probably 50 yds, into ribcage. Somehow I most usually get the field dressing and rough butchering job, probably because I enjoy investigating what happens after the shot, and my friends do other things for me in life and I feel a little sense of payback is required. So, also having been the one prompting the purchase of these components, I went on the 'where did the bullet go' search. The bullet entered the ribcage, expanded, ran up against something internal that was resilient (I think it was diaphragm or heart tissue, then Turned, went up to the spinal column between two ribs, turned again, and tunneled along the outside of the vertebrae until it stopped 1/2 way up the neck.
Yep, it was that "desirable" ~190 gr sort-of-WC shape when it stopped. Good performance? I'd say: No.

There was an article I read related to this somewhere around that time, think it was the A-Square manual, and it has to do with conservation of momentum, overturning moment, resilient (stretchy) tissue, and nose form (that's where I want to make this point, as the discussion was on nose form originally and wounding capacity).
Round noses, and "mushroomed" expanding cup & core, will be subject to not following a straight path through a target body. The problem with the expanded round nose (the worst offender) is that it can get steered by the resilient members in the target body as it loses speed and expands diameter creating opportunity for increased overturning moment, and lowered rotational speed due to conservation of momentum. It can not gain rotational energy after leaving the barrel, so as it spins slower inside teh body after expansion, it becomes less stable.
Short round noses are particularly subject to this, especially when shot at low speed with low spin rate (slow twists, low velocity) and I also remember reading that this is basically what hampers the 45 ACP Ball load in lethality. The RN form is great for feeding into chamber, but is at a disadvantage for wounding (poor fluid disruption / cavitation capability, and easily overturned). It somewhat begs for a better nose form, and HPs are somewhat counterproductive. The HP can increase the overturning moment applied, and will reduce the spin rate after expansion because of conservation of momentum, thus leading to a loss of stability.
I have been intrigued by these fluted copper projectiles for the older ACP family cartridges and their cousins, as it seems like possible useful improvement in regards to terminal ballistics.

[44MAG#1]

One thing not mentioned here, but meaningful in that in relation to wounding capacity it also matters what happens After the bullet has proceeded some distance and nose shape changes (on an expanding projectile) and/or rotational velocity slows, is what happens to bullet stability.

I was on a trip years ago with a friend and he shot a boar (hog) of ~220 lbs broadside with a 285 gr HP in a 44 Contender. I can't state for an absolute fact, but since I provided the data for him to load with, I believe it was loaded at 1.73" w/ 24 gr W296. No slouch load, these did ~1350 fps out of a 7.5" SBH of mine.
The bullet had a brass jacket and a large HP. The promotional concept was rapid opening, and after some distance traveled in the body the HP would shear off leaving a sort of non-expanding wad cutter plug of ~ 190 gr to travel on.
So, again, he took a broadside shot, probably 50 yds, into ribcage. Somehow I most usually get the field dressing and rough butchering job, probably because I enjoy investigating what happens after the shot, and my friends do other things for me in life and I feel a little sense of payback is required. So, also having been the one prompting the purchase of these components, I went on the 'where did the bullet go' search. The bullet entered the ribcage, expanded, ran up against something internal that was resilient (I think it was diaphragm or heart tissue, then Turned, went up to the spinal column between two ribs, turned again, and tunneled along the outside of the vertebrae until it stopped 1/2 way up the neck.
Yep, it was that "desirable" ~190 gr sort-of-WC shape when it stopped. Good performance? I'd say: No.

There was an article I read related to this somewhere around that time, think it was the A-Square manual, and it has to do with conservation of momentum, overturning moment, resilient (stretchy) tissue, and nose form (that's where I want to make this point, as the discussion was on nose form originally and wounding capacity).
Round noses, and "mushroomed" expanding cup & core, will be subject to not following a straight path through a target body. The problem with the expanded round nose (the worst offender) is that it can get steered by the resilient members in the target body as it loses speed and expands diameter creating opportunity for increased overturning moment, and lowered rotational speed due to conservation of momentum. It can not gain rotational energy after leaving the barrel, so as it spins slower inside teh body after expansion, it becomes less stable.
Short round noses are particularly subject to this, especially when shot at low speed with low spin rate (slow twists, low velocity) and I also remember reading that this is basically what hampers the 45 ACP Ball load in lethality. The RN form is great for feeding into chamber, but is at a disadvantage for wounding (poor fluid disruption / cavitation capability, and easily overturned). It somewhat begs for a better nose form, and HPs are somewhat counterproductive. The HP can increase the overturning moment applied, and will reduce the spin rate after expansion because of conservation of momentum, thus leading to a loss of stability.
I have been intrigued by these fluted copper projectiles for the older ACP family cartridges and their cousins, as it seems like possible useful improvement in regards to terminal ballistics.

While that is interesting I am interested in FLAT POINT NON DEFORMING BULLETS either hard cast or Jacketed Flat Nose.

[cainttype]

While that is interesting I am interested in FLAT POINT NON DEFORMING BULLETS either hard cast or Jacketed Flat Nose.

From Veral Smith discussing “Displacement Velocity” and simple calculations to describe the autopsy results of wound paths in various game animals… 02/05/2005

“First understand that it is NOT a theory. I would have let you call it a concept 15 years ago, but it is now a fact, proven over and over by thousands, and no one who has tried it has questioned it's accuracy since I published it in 1990.

The easy calculation is meplat diameter in thousandths of an inch X Velocity divided by 4.

Ignore the range you'll expect to be shooting at. Just calculate it off muzzle velocity and it will be close out to as far as most can hit with a revolver or rifles which thrive on 'Pumpkin ball' type bullets.

Get the DV up to 80 minimum, for quick kills on deer and larger game, best with 100 to 125. Don't go over that very much or kill speed will go down.

If using a small caliber gun which doesn't have the omph to get the 80 minimum desired DV, you'll get good clean kills at DV's down to 60 if the bullets are placed into good vital areas of the chest. i.e. If they cut major blood vessels, heart, or the thicker parts of the lungs.

Expect approximate wound diameters straight through the muscle and organ parts of game as follows:

60 to 70 DV 1/2 inch diameter
75 to 90 DV 3/4 inch +
100 DV 1 inch +
125 DV 1 1/4 inch +
If wound diameter goes up to 1 3/8 inch or greater kill speed drops off rapidly, which means game runs quite a way before expiring. With a DV of 100 to 125, game up to elk moose and bison almost always fold in their tracks or take a few steps at most.

Veral Smith”

[jcren]

Think snow plow hitting a pile of wet slush at speed vs a v-hull boat cutting through the water. Also how old timers would cut the point off a nail being driven into oak or other hard, split prone lumber. Crush and splash instead of neadling through.

[TurnipEaterDown]

One of the reasons I offered what I did in post #13 was the comments on stability.

The bullet which shed its nose in my posted experience was no longer expanding, it basically was a solid w/ a slightly rounded WC shape, and this did not perform well in terms of predictable bullet path.
While the start velocity in that form (having just shed the nose) is not definable, and neither is its spin rate, it is undeniable that it was less than muzzle velocity of the entire projectile and less than muzzle spin rate, and yet still sufficient to penetrate some 12"+ of muscle tissue in the boar. Under these conditions, this bullet did not follow a useful path. It was turned by and away from vital internal members.
The same would be expected to happen with a non deforming bullet if it started under conditions similar to what that bullet experienced after shedding the nose.

Stability should be considered along with wounding capability. If unstable, idealized wounding capability may not be realized.

[cainttype]

For a more detailed scientific treatise on Veral’s conclusions/theory, along with the OP’s request, try; https://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

[TurnipEaterDown]

You have my thanks for post #18. I will try to take the time to read through the whole thing, looks quite in depth.

[Daekar]

From Veral Smith discussing “Displacement Velocity” and simple calculations to describe the autopsy results of wound paths in various game animals… 02/05/2005

“First understand that it is NOT a theory. I would have let you call it a concept 15 years ago, but it is now a fact, proven over and over by thousands, and no one who has tried it has questioned it's accuracy since I published it in 1990.

The easy calculation is meplat diameter in thousandths of an inch X Velocity divided by 4.

Ignore the range you'll expect to be shooting at. Just calculate it off muzzle velocity and it will be close out to as far as most can hit with a revolver or rifles which thrive on 'Pumpkin ball' type bullets.

Get the DV up to 80 minimum, for quick kills on deer and larger game, best with 100 to 125. Don't go over that very much or kill speed will go down.

If using a small caliber gun which doesn't have the omph to get the 80 minimum desired DV, you'll get good clean kills at DV's down to 60 if the bullets are placed into good vital areas of the chest. i.e. If they cut major blood vessels, heart, or the thicker parts of the lungs.

Expect approximate wound diameters straight through the muscle and organ parts of game as follows:

60 to 70 DV 1/2 inch diameter
75 to 90 DV 3/4 inch +
100 DV 1 inch +
125 DV 1 1/4 inch +
If wound diameter goes up to 1 3/8 inch or greater kill speed drops off rapidly, which means game runs quite a way before expiring. With a DV of 100 to 125, game up to elk moose and bison almost always fold in their tracks or take a few steps at most.

Veral Smith”

That is very, very interesting, and is a model I haven't seen before. I haven't had a chance to delve into it deeply, but it tracks with intuition. My pet defensive boolit, the Accurate 36-159S, has a 0.300" meplat and I like to shoot it around 800fps. The formula says that comes out to DV=60, which feels about right. Push the same boolit to 1400fps in a full power 357mag, and you get 105, at the lower end of the recommended range for deer and larger game.

Of course, the model doesn't account for bullet weight and the associated penetration so it's not a complete picture, but it seems very handy for getting an idea of what speed you want to achieve for any given meplat size, and then vary the weight of the design you choose based on your penetration needs. Sounds like an ideal calculation to pair with VIRGEL.

[openbook]

OP, I think that, even with no deformation, the meplat causes hydraulic shock not caused by a round nose or even pointed boolit. The effect of a pointed or round nose on a soft target is more of a "parting," like a knife parts material either side of the blade, without destroying it. In contrast, the abrupt impact of the flat meplat causes a hydraulic shock that reverberates through surrounding tissue. You may have seen Beta O'Rourke sometime in the past few years complaining about Armalite Rifles that shoot 5.56 NATO, he said something about how the round travels at such an incredibly high speed that it causes hydraulic capillary damage, exploding blood vessels and other soft tissue in the vicinity of the wound. The flat nose also causes hydraulic shock, but not because of extreme speed on a diagonal angle (the ogive); instead it's because of moderate or even low speed with a perpendicular impact.

The following is from an article by Glen E. Fryxell discussing an all-purpose SWC bullet. The bullet was tested by a butcher who needed to process large animals. Note that he describes the type of wounding inflicted and also points out that the nose was not deformed.

"Frontal brain shots typically liquefied the brain (“turned it to mush” were Carl’s exact words), exploded the upper neck joint of the spine, and then penetrated under the hide of the neck for several inches (for about 15” of total penetration). Not surprisingly, recovered bullets showed no expansion, only engraving from the rifling and nose scarring. He also reports that this ammo is noticeably quieter than the .38 ammo he had been using (undoubtedly because of the light powder charge)."

Others can certainly correct me on some of my terms. Hopefully this is helpful to you. I'm not an expert but I have a passing acquaintance with fluid dynamics from a prior career.

[44MAG#1]

I have a few LBT molds. Spent many minutes talking to Veral years ago on the phone.

[stubshaft]

I have had the pleasure of knowing and talking to Veral Smith of LBT bullets over the years. His book "Jacketed Performance of Cast Bullets" is a must read. I have shot and killed a lot of animals in my career with a wide variety of bullet designs both J word and cast. When I began hunting hollow points were "the" bullet to use and would wreak death and destruction on anything it touched. Thirty-nine years or so ago, I had the opportunity to talk to Veral and buy one of his 45-300 LFN molds for my FA-83 454 Casull. That gun has accounted for hundreds of dead hods and sheep, and the deadliness of a wide meplat bullet was attested to. At that point I gave up on HP bullets and converted solely to wide meplat bullets.

Since that then I have ordered, cast and shot a variety of LBT molds in a number of calibers. They range from the Long Flat Nose, Wide Flat Nose to the Ogival Wadcutter with a few spitzers thrown in for paper punching. I have used them in wide variety of calibers, and they ALL exhibit the effectiveness of the design.

This is NOT an advertisement for his molds, but rather an endorsement of the efficiency of a large meplat bullet.

[justindad]

Does the Meplat really do much?

Imagine you are a high diver standing over a swimming pool. Do you want to make yourself small or large?

[44MAG#1]

So, in summation, the larger the Meplat the more cavitation and "Slap", my term that sure isn't a technical or scientific term, the target receives be it living tissue or water jugs or any other medium?
A larger Meplat at a given velocity gives more cavitation and "Slap" over a smaller Meplat with a given caliber bullet at a given weight?
Providing the bullet is NON DEFORMING bullet that doesn't readily change the Meplat shape when striking, and penetrating the medium being living tissue, water jugs or other mediums that isn't concrete, steel, rock etc., etc..
So in a 45 Auto one would rather have a .330 Meplat than a .250 Meplat with a given bullet.
This again, is with a NON DEFORMING bullet.

[TurnipEaterDown]

The formula given in post #18 for cavitation is: Cavitation (in soft tissue) ---> CAV(FN) (inches) = Impact Velocity (fps) x Meplat Diameter (inches) / 225 - 0.725
So, yes.
In my experience, I also find that the edge form of the meplat matters too: The sharper the edge at the transition from the meplat to ogive, the better. Also, it is best that the meplat is truly flat.
Some mold makers make the meplat slightly rounded (convex) and the edge of the meplat with a rather generous radius transition to the ogive. Both these actions are done in my understanding to drop the bullet easier from the mold when casting. For performance, I really feel that these actions should be held to an absolute minimum.

[44MAG#1]

The formula given in post #18 for cavitation is: Cavitation (in soft tissue) ---> CAV(FN) (inches) = Impact Velocity (fps) x Meplat Diameter (inches) / 225 - 0.725
So, yes.
In my experience, I also find that the edge form of the meplat matters too: The sharper the edge at the transition from the meplat to ogive, the better. Also, it is best that the meplat is truly flat.
Some mold makers make the meplat slightly rounded (convex) and the edge of the meplat with a rather generous radius transition to the ogive. Both these actions are done in my understanding to drop the bullet easier from the mold when casting. For performance, I really feel that these actions should be held to an absolute minimum.
I have both his first and second printing but could only find this one.
The formula is on page 101. In his second printing he says the same DV can be gotten by VelocityXMeplat Diameter/4. He is correct on that.
304782

[justindad]

The sharper the edge at the transition from the meplat to ogive, the better. Also, it is best that the meplat is truly flat.
This is absolutely true and is easily demonstrated in mechanical stress analysis. When an object is clamped for stress-strain curve measurement, the edges of the clamp create the highest stress, which is why dog-bone samples are narrow in the middle - so the small section is stressed higher than the clamped section. Pull apart a piece of toilet paper - the tear almost always occurs where your fingers are gripping the paper. Now pull it apart by grabbing the paper with pliers instead of your fingers - sharper edge. If you understand the physics behind stress concentration factors (i.e. stress can be more than force divided by area), the sharp meplat edge theory is obvious.
*
Using pressure film to analyze gasket pressures will also support the sharp meplat theory. The film will overhang the gasketed area, and the perimeter of the metal parts will show a significantly higher pressure than the middle region.
*
Now what if the meplat is so large that acceptable penetration fails? What if the high diver hits ice and fails to break through?

[pettypace]

So, in summation, the larger the Meplat the more cavitation and "Slap", my term that sure isn't a technical or scientific term, the target receives be it living tissue or water jugs or any other medium?
A larger Meplat at a given velocity gives more cavitation and "Slap" over a smaller Meplat with a given caliber bullet at a given weight?
Providing the bullet is NON DEFORMING bullet that doesn't readily change the Meplat shape when striking, and penetrating the medium being living tissue, water jugs or other mediums that isn't concrete, steel, rock etc., etc..
So in a 45 Auto one would rather have a .330 Meplat than a .250 Meplat with a given bullet.
This again, is with a NON DEFORMING bullet.

Two questions:

1) How (if at all) is the "cavitation" related to the "temporary cavity" that we hear so much about with respect to gelatin testing and that Fackler drew and labeled in his wound profiles?

2) I understand that "Slap" is not a technical term. But it must relate to some physical phenomenon. Is "Slap" something the target receives just at the instant of bullet impact? Or does the bullet keep "Slapping" the target through the entire penetration path?

[pettypace]

I have both his first and second printing but could only find this one.
The formula is on page 101. In his second printing he says the same DV can be gotten by VelocityXvelocityXMeplat Diameter/4. He is correct on that.
304782

Do you have an extra velocity there you didn't intend?

[44MAG#1]

Two questions:

1) How (if at all) is the "cavitation" related to the "temporary cavity" that we hear so much about with respect to gelatin testing and that Fackler drew and labeled in his wound profiles?

2) I understand that "Slap" is not a technical term. But it must relate to some physical phenomenon. Is "Slap" something the target receives just at the instant of bullet impact? Or does the bullet keep "Slapping" the target through the entire penetration path?

1. If a flat nose bullet does not cause more trauma then all of the people that believe that they do, by the overwhelming amount of shooter using them, have been duped by snake oil salesmen pushing Flat nose bullets all these years in various uses. Now do you want all of them to admit they have been duped?
2. Slap , I would say slap is a term i used for a whoopin on the intended target. With a bullet raging through tissue i would say it would be like a good beat down.

[44MAG#1]

Do you have an extra velocity there you didn't intend?
Yes I do. Thank you for pointing it out.

[500aquasteve]

I shot these 400 grain Woodleigh loads through my 4” S&W 500 destroying the sandbag. Don’t have my load logbook here for details, but used H110

304805

As seen below, the jacketed flat soft nose can also expand to incredible proportions

304806

[pettypace]

1. If a flat nose bullet does not cause more trauma then all of the people that believe that they do, by the overwhelming amount of shooter using them, have been duped by snake oil salesmen pushing Flat nose bullets all these years in various uses. Now do you want all of them to admit they have been duped?
2. Slap , I would say slap is a term i used for a whoopin on the intended target. With a bullet raging through tissue i would say it would be like a good beat down.

OK... I think I understand your answer (#2, above) to my question about "Slap." It sounds like the same thing Hatcher had in mind when he wrote about "Bullet Effect and Shock Power" (chapter 12 of Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers).

But I don't understand why you get all snippy with me (#1 above) when I asked about "cavitation."

So, I'll ask the same question again:

What is the relationship (if any) between the term "cavitation" as used in this thread and the term "temporary cavity" as commonly used in gelatin testing and as drawn and labeled in Fackler's wound profiles?

[44MAG#1]

OK... I think I understand your answer (#2, above) to my question about "Slap." It sounds like the same thing Hatcher had in mind when he wrote about "Bullet Effect and Shock Power" (chapter 12 of Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers).

But I don't understand why you get all snippy with me (#1 above) when I asked about "cavitation."

So, I'll ask the same question again:

What is the relationship (if any) between the term "cavitation" as used in this thread and the term "temporary cavity" as commonly used in gelatin testing and as drawn and labeled in Fackler's wound profiles?

Temporary cavity is cavitation. Just because the temporary cavity is temporary doesn't mean it isn't a cavity. It is a cavity at the time it happens that is the reason it is called TEMPORARY CAVITY. Cavity, cavity, cavity as in temporary CAVITY. Now the remaining cavity is a cavity such as in REMAINING cavity. The spray of and crushing of tissue that causes the permanent cavity, in my mind, is a direct cause of the temporary cavity.
While one shrinks back, although not all the way, there is enough cavity to cause a crushing and ripping that causes a permanent cavity.
The relationship is CAVITY. One is TEMPORARY and one is PERMANENT hence the relationship is cavity. With something speeding through tissue could you have one without the other?
A surgeon isn't taking a scapel and gently cutting out a hole. It is caused by a projectile speeding and coursing through the tissue.
Again are all the believers in the flat nose bullets been wrong all the time by believing in them?
Maybe a product of snake oil salesmen?
I have a question for you, if, in your Charter Arms 44 Special you had only TWO CHOICES of bullets, a 245 grain ROUND NOSE and a 245 grain FLAT POINT with Meplat diameter of .300 inches at 700 fps which one would you choose for self defense.
ONLY the TWO choices I gave you and why? I bet you would choose the round nose.

[pettypace]

Again are all the believers in the flat nose bullets been wrong all the time by believing in them? Maybe a product of snake oil salesmen?.

Sounds like you're looking for a straw man to bad mouth meplats. But (to borrow a phrase from Bob Dylan) it ain't me, babe. For me it's full wadcutters all the way down.

[44MAG#1]

Sounds like you're looking for a straw man to bad mouth meplats. But (to borrow a phrase from Bob Dylan) it ain't me, babe. For me it's full wadcutters all the way down.

I asked you a simple question about what you would choose out of the two bullets I mentioned.
Cant answer that question?? I bet most on here could

[jrayborn]

I so badly want to say the flat point but am pretty concerned that i might develop some give-a-darn about what anyone else thinks.

[44MAG#1]

Better to just keep it to yourself. That way no one will poke fun.

[Good Cheer]

https://i.imgur.com/WF4RfhD.jpg
To illustrate how flat noses behave, this was from penetration tests with a .41 caliber revolver* using round flat nose, semi-wadcutter and wadcutter bullets fired into stacked paper that had been soaked in water until the binder gelled and the fibers were separating.
Wide flat noses tend to stack flesh, temporarily making the stacked flesh a part of the projectile as well as imparting a more violent sideways velocity to the perimeter. That's why the #41026 penetrated half as far as the others.

*.36 caliber Pietta replica 1858 Remington modified to use .41 caliber molds.

[pettypace]

I have a question for you, if, in your Charter Arms 44 Special you had only TWO CHOICES of bullets, a 245 grain ROUND NOSE and a 245 grain FLAT POINT with Meplat diameter of .300 inches at 700 fps which one would you choose for self defense.
ONLY the TWO choices I gave you and why? I bet you would choose the round nose.

OK... I pick the flat nose bullet.

You lost your bet. Now pay up! Or am I expected to pay you somewhere else later on? What's it all about, Maggie?

[pettypace]

https://i.imgur.com/WF4RfhD.jpg
To illustrate how flat noses behave, this was from penetration tests with a .41 caliber revolver* using round flat nose, semi-wadcutter and wadcutter bullets fired into stacked paper that had been soaked in water until the binder gelled and the fibers were separating.
Wide flat noses tend to stack flesh, temporarily making the stacked flesh a part of the projectile as well as imparting a more violent sideways velocity to the perimeter. That's why the #41026 penetrated half as far as the others.

*.36 caliber Pietta replica 1858 Remington modified to use .41 caliber molds.

Very interesting, Good Cheer. Thanks.

Here's a quick pic showing the two Lyman bullets. I'd be curious how the heavy version of the 410214 would penetrate.

https://rewebster.org/pics/Lyman41026.jpg

[44MAG#1]

OK... I pick the flat nose bullet.

You lost your bet. Now pay up! Or am I expected to pay you somewhere else later on? What's it all about, Maggie?
Good to know. And very interesting. Why didn't you pick the RN?

[Good Cheer]

Hey pettypace,
Once upon a time a very generous member here on castboolits actually loaned a beautiful #410214 to me so I could try some. He probably has the only one in existence. However, I didn't test it for penetration.

[cainttype]

Temporary cavity is cavitation. Just because the temporary cavity is temporary doesn't mean it isn't a cavity. It is a cavity at the time it happens that is the reason it is called TEMPORARY CAVITY. Cavity, cavity, cavity as in temporary CAVITY. Now the remaining cavity is a cavity such as in REMAINING cavity. The spray of and crushing of tissue that causes the permanent cavity, in my mind, is a direct cause of the temporary cavity.



I’d have to disagree…..
The “Permanent Wound Cavity” is caused by the bullet…. Lol

The “Temporary” or “Stretch” cavity has been proven to have very little, if any, serious contribution to the wounding, or incapacitation, capabilities of projectiles at typical handgun velocities with bullets of any style, type, or design.
Elastic tissues in the body, like muscles, seem almost unaffected by the “Temporary Cavity”, simply retracting immediately afterward, where less elastic tissue (like liver) seem to retain “some” small increase in damage.
The “Temporary Cavity” mainly causes pretty pictures in gelatin and impressive holes on entry into clay. It has no direct causal effect on the “Permanent Wound Channel” at typical handgun velocities.

[44MAG#1]

I’d have to disagree…..
The “Permanent Wound Cavity” is caused by the bullet…. Lol

The “Temporary” or “Stretch” cavity has been proven to have very little, if any, serious contribution to the wounding, or incapacitation, capabilities of projectiles at typical handgun velocities with bullets of any style, type, or design.
Elastic tissues in the body, like muscles, seem almost unaffected by the “Temporary Cavity”, simply retracting immediately afterward, where less elastic tissue (like liver) seem to retain “some” small increase in damage.
The “Temporary Cavity” mainly causes pretty pictures in gelatin and impressive holes on entry into clay. It has no direct causal effect on the “Permanent Wound Channel” at typical handgun velocities.

This is a free world. You can disagree if you want. A TEMPORARY CAVITY see CAVITY is a cavity even though it is TEMPORARY. Hence the word cavity. The bullet shoving it's way through the pliable medium causes both the TEMPORARY and the PERMANENT cavity. How I know is that without the bullet how would we have either? The bullet doesn't just carefully carve a nice neat little hole. The residual effects is caused by the bullet. Both the TEMPORARY and PERMANENT cavity is caused by the bullet. ONE IS TEMPORARY and one Is PERMANENT but BOTH are CAVITIES.
What I am looking for my 45 Auto is a bullet that will create a 4 inch diameter permanent wound cavity but causes a 1 inch Temporary cavity as it travels through.
Them temporary cavities do look purty don't they.

[cainttype]

This is a free world. You can disagree if you want. A TEMPORARY CAVITY see CAVITY is a cavity even though it is TEMPORARY. Hence the word cavity. The bullet shoving it's way through the pliable medium causes both the TEMPORARY and the PERMANENT cavity. How I know is that without the bullet how would we have either? The bullet doesn't just carefully carve a nice neat little hole. The residual effects is caused by the bullet. Both the TEMPORARY and PERMANENT cavity is caused by the bullet. ONE IS TEMPORARY and one Is PERMANENT but BOTH are CAVITIES.
What I am looking for my 45 Auto is a bullet that will create a 4 inch diameter permanent wound cavity but causes a 1 inch Temporary cavity as it travels through.
Them temporary cavities do look purty don't they.

You’re NEVER going to find a combo that creates a 4 inch PERMANENT wound channel, “cavity” if you prefer, and a one inch TEMPORARY cavity… But you can disagree anytime you like.
It doesn’t matter how many times you try to explain your “cavity relationship”, I’m not buying it! Lol
Too funny. :killingpc

[44MAG#1]

You’re NEVER going to find a combo that creates a 4 inch PERMANENT wound channel, “cavity” if you prefer, and a one inch TEMPORARY cavity… But you can disagree anytime you like.
It doesn’t matter how many times you try to explain your “cavity relationship”, I’m not buying it! Lol
Too funny. :killingpc
So you are saying that TEMPORARY and PERMANENT has no relationship?
Why can't I get a 4 inch PERMANENT cavity and get a one inch TEMPORARY cavity at the same time?
If one has nothing to do with the other?
I don't have any degrees after my name so please be easy with me.

[cainttype]

So you are saying that TEMPORARY and PERMANENT has no relationship?
Why can't I get a 4 inch PERMANENT cavity and get a one inch TEMPORARY cavity at the same time?
If one has nothing to do with the other?
I don't have any degrees after my name so please be easy with me.

You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.
And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.
Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.

[44MAG#1]

You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.
No, I dont think highly of myself. I am actually a very humble individual.
And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.
So why cant I get a 4 inch permanent would cavity while getting a 1 inch temporary cavity? That is like saying I am going to take a shower without getting water on me. How would I do that unless I cover myself in a sheet of plastic but if I did that the goal of getting clean wouldnt be accomplished.
Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.
Oh, I think alright. Just like mass cannot be weighed.

[cainttype]

Originally Posted by cainttype

You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.

44Mag1
No, I dont think highly of myself. I am actually a very humble individual.

And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.

44Mag1
So why cant I get a 4 inch permanent would cavity while getting a 1 inch temporary cavity? That is like saying I am going to take a shower without getting water on me. How would I do that unless I cover myself in a sheet of plastic but if I did that the goal of getting clean wouldnt be accomplished.

Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.[Quote]

[QUOTE=44MAG#1;5463101]Oh, I think alright. Just like mass cannot be weighed.

Your “Temporary Cavity” will be your larger diameter “stretch” cavity, while your permanent wound channel will be the smaller diameter wound channel that continues to penetrate.

[44MAG#1]

[Quote]Originally Posted by cainttype

You can stop playing the “Poor dumb me” card… We both know you think much higher of yourself.

44Mag1
No, I dont think highly of myself. I am actually a very humble individual.

And NO, the Temporary cavity and Permanent wound channel do NOT rely upon each other, they simply exist in the same discussion of wound trauma.

44Mag1
So why cant I get a 4 inch permanent would cavity while getting a 1 inch temporary cavity? That is like saying I am going to take a shower without getting water on me. How would I do that unless I cover myself in a sheet of plastic but if I did that the goal of getting clean wouldnt be accomplished.

Think again about what you stated… You’ll catch it if you slow down a little.[Quote]



Your “Temporary Cavity” will be your larger diameter “stretch” cavity, while your permanent wound channel will be the smaller diameter wound channel that continues to penetrate.

So the TEMPORARY cavity stretches and snaps back and what is left is the actual PERMANENT wound cavity that the bullet carves out.

[cainttype]

44Mag1
So the TEMPORARY cavity stretches and snaps back and what is left is the actual PERMANENT wound cavity that the bullet carves out.

“Carves out”, “crushes”…. Yessir.

[44MAG#1]

“Carves out”, “crushes”…. Yessir.

So that is the reason it is called temporary. If it wasn't temporary it would be permanent??
The carved out or crushed cavity is permanent because it stays??

[cainttype]

Temporary means temporary… Permanent means just that, permanent.
The initial “stretch cavity” that collapses almost immediately is often referred to as the “Temporary Cavity” because it’s gone by the time the autopsy is conducted… We see it best in gelatin and mediums like modeling clay.

[44MAG#1]

Temporary means temporary… Permanent means just that, permanent.
The initial “stretch cavity” that collapses almost immediately is often referred to as the “Temporary Cavity” because it’s gone by the time the autopsy is conducted… We see it best in gelatin and mediums like modeling clay.

I can see that now. I didn't know that.
I must have had my definitions confused.
I took temporary as permanent and permanent as temporary.
So the temporary cavity actually closes up around the permanent cavity and what is seen is the permanent cavity that is left?
So as the bullet courses through the medium it causes the temporary cavity which rapidly closes up around the permanent cavity that is left and that is what we see.
Thanks.

[cainttype]

Exactly.
Elastic tissues being “stretched” by the Temporary Cavity at typical handgun velocities often show no visible trauma on examination, according to the experts that have done serious work in the forensics field.
The same type early-contact/excessive stretch in high velocity rifle rounds can cause extensive tissue damage thru “cavitation”… It’s the 2.5K+ fps that makes the difference.

Exceptions are typically explained by fragmentation, whether bullets or bone shattered…Tiny projectiles flying helter-skelter through vitals can get ugly.

[44MAG#1]

Exactly.
Elastic tissues being “stretched” by the Temporary Cavity at typical handgun velocities often show no visible trauma on examination, according to the experts that have done serious work in the forensics field.
The same type early-contact/excessive stretch in high velocity rifle rounds can cause extensive tissue damage thru “cavitation”… It’s the 2.5K+ fps that makes the difference.

Exceptions are typically explained by fragmentation, whether bullets or bone shattered…Tiny projectiles flying helter-skelter through vitals can get ugly.

So, with that being said the Meplat of a bullet unless it is wadcutter has no bearing on the woulding capabilities at all. 45 Auto for example, not talking expanding bullets, but hard cast you would just as soon have a 230 RN bullet instead of a 230 grain hard cast bullet with a .300 inch diameter at the same velocity?
So unless a bullet is a full wadcutter Meplat the flat noses on most bullets in a handgun is useless????
So I have been duped?
I may just order me a RN mold from Accurate Molds and retire my 230 grain FP with a .330 inch diameter.
Thanks for helping me. Would I be better off with a 200 grain RN or a 230. Would a copy of the 230 grain FMJ Jacketed.Profile be better or a copy of most 9MM FMJ profile be better?
Thanks

[Bigslug]

As I understand and have witnessed the process, what meplat does for you is grab, crush, and tear better than something more streamlined.

I've posted elsewhere that I visualize our goal as creating a replica of the largest blood vessels in the body (the aorta and vena cava) for the heart to pump blood out through. The projectile that does this as deeply as possible (longest "artery") is what will "drain the bathtub" quickest. A hole of 3/4" to 1.5" is going to do this trick for you, but a ragged .43" to .45" will be no slouch either.

For handguns, temporary cavity is pretty meaningless as far as solving this problem goes. The FBI's research that gave us the modern gel-shoot protocols was pretty solid science - at rifle impact speeds of about 2,000 fps and up, you'll get cavitation that's rapid enough to tear tissue beyond the bullet's diameter. At less than this (handgun speeds), not really so much, and the tissue just stretches and rebounds - hence the desire for a nose that will mechanically crush and tear more effectively to create a more leaky passage.

There's some compromises to be made here:

The LFN types (roughly .30" to .32" meplats for a .44 to .45 caliber bullet) will fly better and feed better in automatics and will still make a good wrecking ball at higher speeds.

The WFN types (about .34" for same) don't fly as well over distance, but give maximum crush at shorter distances or for lower speed loads.

Two of Keith's designs are a good example of this: His classic .44 bullet, the 429421 was a great mix of damage-causing potential that was also stable at long range. In contrast, his 452423 .45 Auto-Rim bullet was all about short range, low velocity, blunt force trauma. As I like to say, Elmer must have been mad at the world when he designed that one.:mrgreen:

[cainttype]

So, with that being said the Meplat of a bullet unless it is wadcutter has no bearing on the woulding capabilities at all. 45 Auto for example, not talking expanding bullets, but hard cast you would just as soon have a 230 RN bullet instead of a 230 grain hard cast bullet with a .300 inch diameter at the same velocity?
So unless a bullet is a full wadcutter Meplat the flat noses on most bullets in a handgun is useless????
So I have been duped?
I may just order me a RN mold from Accurate Molds and retire my 230 grain FP with a .330 inch diameter.
Thanks for helping me. Would I be better off with a 200 grain RN or a 230. Would a copy of the 230 grain FMJ Jacketed.Profile be better or a copy of most 9MM FMJ profile be better?
Thanks

Where did that come from??.. I must have missed it.
Of course meplat diameter plays a significant role in the wound channel “crush” diameter in a non-expanding bullet… I haven’t seen anyone dispute that.
If you can show me, in this entire dead-horse-beating thread where that was said I’d appreciate it.

You insinuate that someone said such nonsense, so please, show me exactly where that happened instead of fishing for a make-believe argument.

[44MAG#1]

Where did that come from??.. I must have missed it.
Of course meplat diameter plays a significant role in the wound channel “crush” diameter in a non-expanding bullet… I haven’t seen anyone dispute that.
If you can show me, in this entire dead-horse-beating thread where that was said I’d appreciate it.

You insinuate that someone said such nonsense, so please, show me exactly where that happened instead of fishing for a make-believe argument.

This is what i am going by. Look at the SWC, TC and RN photos. Maybe a small difference in penetration but actually no difference in Defense Wound Mass.
Keep in mind this is figured from a 44 Special load at 700 fps and a 245 grain bullet.
This is the tool i used to determine that.
Keeping in mind SWC and TC are flat nose bullets.

304895

304896

304897

[cainttype]

Are you serious?

You have spent days, and dozens of posts, because a simple program that doesn’t have the ability to differentiate between meplat diameters doesn’t differentiate between meplat diameters?
That’s insane.

So I’ll ask again…. Since you insinuate that someone, anyone, here has flatly stated meplat diameter is not a factor…. Please show me where the quote is…

[44MAG#1]

Are you serious?

You have spent days, and dozens of posts, because a simple program that doesn’t have the ability to differentiate between meplat diameters doesn’t differentiate between meplat diameters?
That’s insane.

So I’ll ask again…. Since you insinuate that someone, anyone, here has flatly stated meplat diameter is not a factor…. Please show me where the quote is…

It is inferred by that program.. Is it not???
Something can be inferred without being said directly cant it. i may have my terms confused. I have heard others smarter than me say that sometimes what isnt said can be as important what is said.
am i wrong?

[cainttype]

I’ll take that as, “No… I can’t show you where anyone said anything I’m claiming was said.”.
Good enough.

[44MAG#1]

I’ll take that as, “No… I can’t show you where anyone said anything I’m claiming was said.”.
Good enough.

So inferred cannot be a "tool" used by people to get across a point.?
Good enough.

[Daekar]

The amount of nutjob in this thread is breathtaking. 44mag, I don't know what put a bee in your bonnet, but I feel like you need to either drop this discussion or state a theory or position which you feel is the truth and go from there. I don't even know what this thread is about anymore.

[fenderman57]

Wasted bandwidth right from the start.

[pettypace]

This is what i am going by. Look at the SWC, TC and RN photos. Maybe a small difference in penetration but actually no difference in Defense Wound Mass.
Keep in mind this is figured from a 44 Special load at 700 fps and a 245 grain bullet.
This is the tool i used to determine that.
Keeping in mind SWC and TC are flat nose bullets.

304895

304896

304897

44MAG#1,

You'd better check your communications system! It seems to have gone all transmit and no receive.

You and I have been over this before via PM. But I'll try again: VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) is just a special-purpose calculator designed around the "wound trauma incapacitation" model in Duncan MacPherson's book Bullet Penetration. (To give credit where due, VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) also uses ideas from Charles Schwartz's book Quantitative Ammunition Selection.)

https://rewebster.org/pics/bullet_penetration.png

As shown on the dust jacket, MacPherson tested lots of bullet types. But he couldn't test everything. So he made the recommendation below (which I forwarded to you via PM some time ago):

Bullet configurations with a large flat nose diameter near the caliber (e.g., Keith semi-wadcutters) are probably stable at zero angle of attack and the value of CDc can be modeled as cylinders with a diameter of the flat nose face.

As I told you then, this workaround can be approximated with VIRGEL (https://rewebster.org/virgel/virgel2.html) by changing the bullet shape to WC and using the meplat diameter as the bullet diameter. But, the results are not helpful unless the meplat diameter is very close to bullet diameter.

Outpost75's post on a recent and related thread sums up the situation clearly:


Observing from game results, using .44-.45 revolvers on deer, if the bullet does not expand, a meplat less than half of bullet diameter is no more effective than a round nose. A meplat 0.7 of the bullet diameter will rivet at 850 fps in soft 8-10 BHN alloy and give results similar to a wadcutter. The LBT wide flat noses and similar designs by Accurate are ideal.

I hope this helps.